Look at these old primers...need ID

coyote nose · Post by **coyote nose** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:43 am

Had these cartridges awhile....thought they were misfires due to the primer craters. A few days ago I got a good look at them and it seems the primers are unfired. They have what appears to be a copper insert in them with the "W" winchester stamp. Odd. Anybody know what this is?? Are they smokeless rounds and this is how the factory ID'ed them? Seems to be a lot of manufacturing tooling and trouble to do this to every primer. Any idea as to when this was done??? One round is a full metal jacket round nose, the other a round nose soft point.

Cannon · Post by **Cannon** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:18 am

I believe that's what Winchester called a 'Protected Primer' for their lever action ammo, designed to reduce the chances of a mag tube detonation.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:59 am

Those are cool.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 6:40 am

Interesting, never seen anything like that before.

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:00 am

Acording to w30wcf, it is as you suspect. A method of identifying the cartidges containing early smokeless rounds. The black powder rounds didn't have a mark. In my small collection I have some marked primers. I'll see if I can get a good picture.
Gobbler

lozen · Post by **lozen** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 8:33 am

Neat, Would they be rare in .32 W.S.? I don't believe any were ever loaded with black powder, or any 32sp bbl's not designed for smokeless.

Buffboy · Post by **Buffboy** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:00 am

Cannon has it right. http://members.shaw.ca/cartridge-corner/wrahelp.htm No pictures but it has date ranges.
The method also allowed a small rifle primer to be used in a large rifle case.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 10:40 am

Those are some of the earliest smokeless primers. Made around the end of the 1800s to the early 1900s. IF they are still live they are corrosive and mercuric.
I had quite a few of them in the late 60s early 70s and they taught me what a hang fire was. Very scary.
If the cartridges are in good condition I'd suggest keeping them as collectibles.

Joe

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:33 am

I agree, hangfires can be a "very" scary deal.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:44 pm

kimwcook wrote:I agree, hangfires can be a "very" scary deal.

The last of that kind of primers I fired went like this.

I had a bunch of ancient 30WCF ammo, and some odd ball stuff as well. I was out in the AZ desert having fun shooting the stuff when got to the WRA Co round.
Chambered it, aimed at my target, pulled the trigger, heard the hammer fall ...... then I heard a hissing sound coming from the breach of the carbine. I consciously sucked the stock tighter into my shoulder and then waited while listening to that hiissssssiinng sound. It finally fired. I'm sure it hissssseeddd for at least 30 seconds before firing.

After it finally fired I looked the case over and it was OK. Then I dug through all the rest of my ammo loaded with that primer, and set them aside. When I got home I pulled them down removed the old primer and installed a new one.

I've long wondered what would have happened had I ejected that round and continued shooting. It would have fired outside the gun and scared the pelosi out of me is what would have happened.

Joe

creosote · Post by **creosote** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 12:57 pm

I have a full box of "30 Winchester Model 1894 Soft Point" cartridges with the protected primers
like yours. The label on the two piece box is dated in print 9-15 .
They are 170 grain bullets and each bullet is stamped with the Winchester "W".
Also in the box is a small paper about the size of a small modern postit note. It states that the cartridges are loaded with Hercules powder. So i guess they used them at least to 1915.
creosote

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:03 pm

coyote nose,
Your W.R.A. CO. .32 W. S. cartridges used a 5 1/2W (protected primer). The 5 1/2W primer was a large rifle primer in a cup. By comparison, the early W.R.A. CO. .30 W.C.F. cartridges used a 5W (protected) primer which was a small rifle primer in a cup.

Protected primers were replaced by NF (Non Fulminate) primers in the 1920's.

The powder in those cartridges is most likely "Lightning" which has a burning rate similar to today's 4198.

w30wcf

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 1:36 pm

I was able to get a few pictures clear enough to post. There is one with the W in the circle. It is in a 405wcf. There are other primer stamps and head stamps to look at, too.
Gobbler

w30wcf · Post by **w30wcf** » Sat Jan 17, 2009 2:16 pm

Gobblerforge,
Nice collection. The practice of identifying factory loaded smokeless cartridges by a letter imprinted on the primer was discontinued beginning around 1930 when nickel plated primers came into general use.

w30wcf

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 7:11 am

Thanks. I really don't collect any more. Life style has changed enough that I don't go to shows much. I do enjoy the hobby though.
Gobbler

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Sun Jan 18, 2009 1:05 pm

Gobblerforge,

I don't mean to hijack this thread, but tell me about those locomotives behind the cartridges.

Maybe a new thread with pics???????????????

Joe

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 7:22 am

JMiller. Those are Marx trains. I have collected and played with them since I was a kid. Maybe I will take some photos and post. Do you think anyone will care?
Gobbler

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 11:21 am

Gobblerforge wrote:JMiller. Those are Marx trains. I have collected and played with them since I was a kid. Maybe I will take some photos and post. Do you think anyone will care?
Gobbler

Gobbler, start a new topic and I know for one I'd enjoy it. Almost every old guy started out as a little boy with at least one toy train. My brother has a huge collection of them. He lets me play with them when I visit him in CA.

Joe

Gobblerforge · Post by **Gobblerforge** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:46 pm

Ok, I will. But I'm gonna ask for help. We have dial up. It can take 20 or 30 minutes for me to take a picture, load it to the computer, load it to photo bucket, then bring it here. I can take a lot of photo's on this subject. Is there a faster way to do this. I have an hour into it so far and I'm on picture #4.
Gobbler

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Jan 20, 2009 2:54 pm

Gobblerforge wrote:Ok, I will. But I'm gonna ask for help. We have dial up. It can take 20 or 30 minutes for me to take a picture, load it to the computer, load it to photo bucket, then bring it here. I can take a lot of photo's on this subject. Is there a faster way to do this. I have an hour into it so far and I'm on picture #4.
Gobbler

Gobbler,
I'm in the same boat, slow dial up. My photobucket has a bulk upload feature that I use occasionally. I get the pics set for size first. I do this in another program that's on the hard drive. Then I just open up photobuckets bulk uploader and select them and then walk away for a while as it downloads the pics.

Joe

Look at these old primers...need ID

Look at these old primers...need ID

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Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

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Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

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Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID

Re: Look at these old primers...need ID