OT: .223 , 1 in 9" twist - Question for bolt gun owners...

[DixieBoy]

A friend and I were talking about a rifle he'd seen in one of the discount shops nearby. It's a Remington in .223 chambering, but the sales guy wasn't sure what the twist rate was. Big surprise, eh? A sales guy who doesn't know his product in one of these shops...

It was a bolt gun, and I'm pretty sure, based on Remington's website, that it is a 1 in 12" twist rifle. He wants a 1 in 9" twist, and from what I hear, that's the ticket for shooting slightly heavier (over 55 grains, up to maybe 68 grains) in the .223 bolt actions. As I am brand new to the .223 cartridge, my knowledge is very limited.

Those of you who own or are familiar with 1 in 9" twist .223 bolt action rifles, what is accuracy like in the 20" barrels offered by Remington and Savage ? How about when the barrels get a little longer ?

Can my pal expect to shoot tight groups at 300 - 400 yards with a fairly stock rifle with a 20" barrel ? These are in the running for him because there are a couple right now on dealer's shelves within driving distance, and they're affordable.

Any replies from those with experience are appreciated.

By the way, I've finally gotten together the necessaries to get my own rifle out this coming week. It's been hard to sit still since bringing it home, but now I've got a scope, base and rings, and I've finally scrounged up 100 rounds of decent ammo.
I had no idea that putting together even this paltry stash of ammo for the .223 would be such a challenge. I've found Wal-Mart stores in places I've never been to before ! Now I know they're there...

Thanks for any help here. - DixieBoy

[handyrandyrc]

I know a few things about .223, but most of my experience is with the AR platform. However, I think most of the same things will apply. Your friend's bolt gun has the potential to be more accurate than most ARs, but every rifle is different. You'll have to try it out.

55 grains for shooting at 100 yard distances is best -- a 60+ grainer may not yet have gone to 'sleep'.

Move out to 300 yards, and that 65-68 grain bullet will have had enough time to go to 'sleep', and that weight is where you'll likely see the best accuracy.

Out further, you'll want a 72-75 grainer. Will that 1 in 9 twist stabilize it? It might. However, the only way to know is to give it a shot. Any more than 75 grains, you may not be able to stabilize in a 1 in 9.

[Chris83716]

I’ll second handrrandyrc. At 200 to 300 yards you will need a heavier bullet than a 55grn for decent accuracy in any kind of wind. Take a look at the bullets offered by Sierra and Hornady that are geared toward NRA Highpower/CMP shooting with the AR-15. My personal preference is for the 69grn sierra. It works well in my Bushmaster V match which is a 1 in 9 for what its worth.

Chris

[Modoc ED]

A 1:12 twist for a .223 firing a 60gr or less weight bullet is fine but once you get past that 60gr weight, the 1:12 twist will not stabalize a bullet as well as a 1:9 twist.

[O.S.O.K.]

The 1:12" twist is a "varmint" rifle. It's intended for the lighter bullets. The 1:9" twist is much more versitile.

As for accuracy, it depends on the rifle and such but the .223 is potentially a tack driver and with good, high bc bullets can easily handle ranges out to 600+ yards. Beyond that range, a 1:17" twist barrel is preferrable to allow for the vld bullets.

If I were looking for a .223 bolt gun, I'd definately want the 1:9" twist rate and would most likely choose a savage.

[DixieBoy]

Thanks guys.

handyrandyrc, that's an interesting term "sleep" for the slightly heavier .223 bullets. I'm guessing that with this term, you mean "stablize" ? If it is something else, please let me know. It sounds like the basic rules of heavier (or slightly longer) bullets need faster twists, holds true here too.

I'm a rank beginner with the .223, so there's no worry about insulting my intelligence in this area. I don't have much !

There is a good deal I've learned from you guys' responses to all my questions regarding the AR-15. Now I figure that since I've got a buddy who is interested in getting his hands on a .223 bolt gun, we can learn some things about the behavior of this cartridge together. More fun, and just maybe, a faster learning curve.

The barrel length question is still out there. Do these guys with longer ( 24" or 26" ) barrels in bolt action .223's really get more long distance accuracy than the guys shooting the shorter barrel (say, 20") barrel bolt action? If so, I'd guess that this is because there are powder choices available to the guys using the longer barrels, which allow them to wring extra velocity out of the extra few inches of tube.

It seems that the offerings in 20" barrel length rifles are primarily marketed as "cop guns." You know, "tactical" name tags, and black synthetic stocks, oversized bolt handles, that kind of thing. Our question now comes down to basically: Does the guy with the 20" barrel in one of these rifles give up longer distance acccuracy to the guy with the 24" or 26" barrel ? If that is the case, what kind of differences are the shooters of these rifles talking about ?

Do the guys shooting the longer barrels have different powder choices for handloading, even though we are dealing with the same caliber? Thanks again. This is a remarkably knowledgeable gang here. - DixieBoy

[Buffboy]

The Remington 26" 700 SPS the wife just got has the 1-12 twist. She handled the Savage and the Ruger but once the SPS came out of the box, it was a "This is the one" moment. It wasn't much more $ than the Savage and the Ruger(used). I haven't done much load development for it yet so I don't know it's accuracy. With some 55gr SP loads I have for my Ruger (also 1-12), it does pretty well (a little over MOA) but I'm sure it will get better with some tailoring. I'm thinking I need to get in a bunch of 50gr to work up a load and they are easier to find because the AR guys haven't gobbled them all up. I've had pretty good luck with 50-55gr loads with this twist.

Like others have said, 1-12 is going to be best with 60gr and under. Remington does make tactical bolt rifles in 223 and that's probably what your buddy is looking at as they are 1-9. The 20 inch barrel of some of these tactical rifles is gonna give up a little velocity but not as much as you might think with the 223. As a general rule, short barrels are easier to get accuracy out of in applications like this because of less whip. The little 45gr pills may have a problem with this twist rate but anything bigger will likely do just fine. If he wants long range with 223, bullets up to 70gr would be best. A 223 bolt with a 1-9 may do well with heavier than 70gr but some don't, so like Handyrandy said, you'll just have to try them to see.

[O.S.O.K.]

Yes, the 20" barrels will tend to be (or are on average more) accurate than the longer tubes. They are stiffer and resonate with less varience. The powder choices are the same regardless - all powders are going to be completely combusted within about 14" of the bore - or less given appropriate powder choice.

[DixieBoy]

Alright ! Glad I checked back in before heading outta here. Thanks buffboy and O.S.O.K. I had not considered "whip" in the barrel. I recognize that the heavier barrels are going to be stiffer than super lightweight sporter type barrels, but I'd always thought they had the shorter barrels on the "cop type" .223's for compactness, rather than anything else.

So, a heavy barrel is going to "whip" less, and offers more surface area for heat dissipation than a narrower tube. That makes good sense. This leads me to believe that the "varmint" rifle guys, with 24" and 26" barrels are just looking to eek out a tiny bit of extra velocity (?) or accuracy (?) out of their rifles with the additional length.

Not to keep posing questions (which I guess I'm doing anyway) but O.S.O.K. noted that after about 14" of travel that most potential accuracy can be achieved with the .223 round. Don't mean to put words in your mouth if your meaning was something different than this. But I seem to remember a test (maybe on this site, in the articles section?) where a rifle's barrel was reduced in length, incrementally, with 2" cuts and recrowns, and identical loads chronographed.

The goal was to find at which length of barrel the shooter of that particular rifle had achieved all the accuracy he was gonna get from it. Maybe the guys building - and buying - these cop rifles with the 20" barrels figure they've got this question answered already.

This stuff is really interesting. And, as always, I'm a bit more knowledgeable for having asked a question here. One day we're gonna all have to get together. I figure I owe a bunch of you guys a steak dinner. For now, I hope my thanks wil do.
- DixieBoy

[JohndeFresno]

You have some great answers above. I, too, found it necessary to look carefully into the twist factor, since the .223 comes in at least three twist rates, depending upon the firearm. I needed to maximize a varmint load for my son-in-law's Ruger Ranch Rifle.

1) I found this excellent set of charts and explanations posted by Dave Jennings of Montana Bullet Works. Please see:
http://www.montanabulletworks.com/wst_page11.html

2) Chuck Hawks (I think it's merely http://www.chuckhawks.com) has a subscriber supported website where he lists a basic set of twist rates (for non-subscribers) and an expanded set of information (for the subscriber) of the most common twist rates for rifles.

3) But if you determine the exact make and model, you will probably find the twist rate if you look in the "specifications" section of that firearm at the respective manufacturer's site. That is what I have done for all of my firearms, with the exception of some older guns that I looked up by Googling something like "[gun make] [gun model] twist rate". Then, you can use the charts available at the site mentioned in Iem #1.

[mescalero1]

All this has got me curious, anybody know the twist rate of my Stevens 200 without me doing the dirty deed.

[handyrandyrc]

"Going to sleep" is a term I picked up from high-power shooters. The heavier ones often need a little distance before they settle in. A heavier bullet will shoot better at 300 yards than it will at 100. Not saying the total group size will necessarily be SMALLER, but if measured in minutes of angle, the group will be tighter than the near group.

http://yarchive.net/gun/ammo/bullet_spin_rates.html

Here is some more info on the subject about 'going to sleep'.

and a video on the subject:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pF8W5liSRc

See how the bullet settles down as distance/time increases?

[JReed]

All this has got me curious, anybody know the twist rate of my Stevens 200 without me doing the dirty deed.

The Stevens has a 1/9 twist. I have one great guns.

A long tube is not as important in .223 as it is with cases that have more volume a 20-22" barrel is perfect for most things that you will do with this cartridge. As the others have said the 1/9 twist is more of a do all twist allowing you more room for load development and building loads that can be more sittuation specific i.e. 300yrd ground squirrel loads using 50gr pills up to 4-500yrd coyote loads using 70 grainers. If the big Green doesn't offer the 1/9 I wouldnt think twice about picking up the Savage.

[mescalero1]

I purposely bought (new) the youth model; it is so small and light ::
travels VERY well!

[JReed]

I have the full size 200. It only weighs about 7# with the glass on it. I dont mind packing the weight most of my guns are much heavier. Been thinking about one of these slings for it.http://www.timberbutteoutdoors.com/introduction.html it has two shoulder straps allowing complete hands free carry.

[mescalero1]

Now that is inovation, Thanks

[JohndeFresno]

All this has got me curious, anybody know the twist rate of my Stevens 200 without me doing the dirty deed.

...er...I failed to mention that you need the caliber, too.

The Stevens 200 comes in several calibers (.243, .30-06, .223 come to mind), with twists like 1:12, 1:9.45, 1:9 - depending upon the caliber. And you already have the answer for the .223 version, above.

[mescalero1]

I could be wrong, but I kind of assumed JReed & I were talking about .223.

[JReed]

I could be wrong, but I kind of assumed JReed & I were talking about .223.

Yep .223 Stevens 200 1/9 twist.