guns in parking lots

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:37 pm

i have a question about keeping a gun in a car in a parking lot where the owner of the lot forbids it. my wife has a hospital that is over an hour away that forbids a gun on the premises. there is no other parking lot nearby where she can just walk from, and the cars are subject to being searched and if a gun is found the car and gun is seized and person fired and charged..etc etc etc.

i am upset to say the least, can they do that legally. my wife is working on her rn and will be doing her clinicals and working at this hospital. it is located off of the highway and parking on the shoulder won't work.

what should she do?

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:41 pm

What state is she in? How much does she care about her job vs her life? Does the hospital have security on the parking location?

Gun Smith · Post by **Gun Smith** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:44 pm

Depends on the law. I think a property owner may forbid possession of firearms on their property. Could you and she work out something with her employer if she's not comfortable being unarmed to and from work?

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:46 pm

I think it is legal for a property owner to forbid guns on thier property, what I have trouble with is the searches.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:00 pm

Florida recently pass laws forbidding a company from doing this but that's the only state that I know of that has this law. I'm not sure I agree with making it mandatory that a property owner must allow this but that's an other issue. If your wife really wants to carry (good on her) and if she can keep it to herself she will figure out what to do.
I personally see no reason to leave a personal protection handgun in the car. It will be in my control at all times. You can take that to mean anything you want it to mean.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:32 pm

As much as I love my guns and our Second Amendment rights, that amendment, like others, is a restriction on the government - not on individual people. A property owner of any kind should be allowed to determine what they will and will not allow on their property. This is the essence of freedom - a man is the king of his castle (property). Same applies to a business that owns the property and pays taxes on it. So, I disagree with the recent law passed in Florida, as it infringes on the rights of a property owner to do what he or she (or they) will with their own property.

The way to change what is still an idiotic policy - forbiding guns in their parking lots - is through boycotts and raising awareness - making the policy uncomfortable (or expensive) to the entity. We need to remember though, for a business, they are often in a no-win situation due to the threat of legal action against them if someone used a firearm, however properly, on their property. That is also a way to get their attention though - send a nice, formal letter stating that they will be held liable should anything happen to you on their property since they have deprived you of your ability to defend yourself, and that you have instructed your estate to instigate legal action should this happen. Carries even more weight if signed by a lawyer (see, we can use them for good - occasionally

)!

As for seizing a gun, that is theft. The property owner has no legal right to take another personal property. They can refuse you entry, and can eject you later, or bar you from future entry, but they can not seize your property. Here is where another letter from a lawyer may prove helpful.

In the end analysis though, your wife must decide whether it is more important to her to be safe, or have the job. My company forbids the carrying of weapons in company cars - fearing legal action should an employee use one or have an accident. Needless to say, this is a policy I ignore. I'd rather be looking for a new job - even now in these economic conditions - than have my wife have to start looking for one to feed herself and our kids if I was murdered.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Jan 28, 2009 11:35 pm

If you want to PM me, I could give you more detailed information and experiences I and others have had in Indiana with this issue. Generally, it has boiled down mostly to 'civil disobedience' but in a couple cases I understand the hospitals were reasonable. Of course Indiana is a very pro-gun state relative to most.

I feel that if an employer or business prohibits CCW on their property, that IS their right, as it IS private property, but I also feel there should be an AUTOMATIC 100 million dollar fine paid to the next of kin of anyone on the property who is injured or killed, and has a CCW license but was not armed due to the policy.

What if the Virginia Tech administrators were concerned that vandalism, pranks, and occasional assaults using fire extinguishers were a threat on campus, and decided students might 'feel safer' if they weren't allowed - then the next week 30 or so students were burned to death in a dormitory fire. You think anyone might want to hold them accountable? But of course if it is 'guns' common sense disappears.

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:35 am

Now lemme get this straight. They actually search the interior of vehicles parked in a hospital parking lot? Note I didn't ask if they have a sign that says "vehicles subject to search". I asked do they actually search the hundreds or thousands of cars that come and go every day? If not, I guess unless ya wear a neon sign on yer head that says "I have a gun in my car" how they gonna know WHAT is in your car? I used to do work at prisons. One of the big "no-no's" at a prison is a camera in the car. I almost ALWAYS have a camera in the car. I usually also have an old jacket or flannel shirt on the seat. Where do ya suppose the camera was when I had to make a service call at (sometimes drive inside) the prison?

My car, my business. Nuff said.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:55 am

adirondakjack wrote:Now lemme get this straight. They actually search the interior of vehicles parked in a hospital parking lot? Note I didn't ask if they have a sign that says "vehicles subject to search". I asked do they actually search the hundreds or thousands of cars that come and go every day? If not, I guess unless ya wear a neon sign on yer head that says "I have a gun in my car" how they gonna know WHAT is in your car? I used to do work at prisons. One of the big "no-no's" at a prison is a camera in the car. I almost ALWAYS have a camera in the car. I usually also have an old jacket or flannel shirt on the seat. Where do ya suppose the camera was when I had to make a service call at (sometimes drive inside) the prison?

My car, my business. Nuff said.

In Indianapolis, the hospitals will FIRE you if you go out to your car on your lunch break and have a cigarette IN YOUR CAR...! I'm a nonsmoker and advise against it for obvious health reasons, but this policy infuriates me.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:14 am

If it were me, I'd make a good hiding place for my gun and put it there down the street. My bet would be that any search would be a cursory one of obvious places. If I thought it would be more than that I would make my hiding place under the hood. Maybe in a ziplock in the air filter box....
I've thought about re-making the headliner in my Tacoma to store my rifle - making a drop-down compartment and recover the whole thing in matching headliner upholstry.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:29 am

I'd look into the legalities. It may be within the Hospitals right to ask that folks not bring them but not punishable by law.
I'd think if it was an actual crime to bring one onto the property they would need conspicuous signs saying so. I know I carry right into the hospitals here, never saw a sign saying I cant & I'm not in the habit of advertising my gun by asking folks if its ok that I have it. Seems unreasonable to me that if they dont want them in the building you cant lock it in your car. If you get car jacked between your house & the hospital are they going to save you?

Doc Hudson · Post by **Doc Hudson** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:01 am

Who does the search?

Who "siezes" the car and gun?

Does your wife have a license to carry?

No way to protect her job, but if the ***'s stole my car and gun, I'd have someone arrested and the hospital sued for theft of property.

Like Hobie said, which is more valuable to you and her, her life, her job or her car?

I'd also suggest she look for a job nearer home.

Post by **AmBraCol** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:37 am

There are some excellent points and questions above. Do they REALLY search cars or is it a "cars are subject to search" sign hanging at the entrance? Is it a state run hospital or a private enterprise? If it's private then you'd have legal recourse to fight any attempted theft by the entity. If it's government then they usually do whatever they want and run right over you. That's what government tends to do. If your wife is close mouthed then there's no probable cause for them to search. A gun in the car would not be a problem - unless she let folks KNOW it was there. Then the vehicle would be subject to search. My own policy down here is that I ignore signs about "no weapons". In government buildings they have metal detectors and a check box where your weapon is stored until you leave. If they find the gun I hand it over after dumping the shells. Upon exiting I present my carry permit, receive and reload the weapon, holster and I"m off about my business. If I'm entering a private building and they object to weapons I keep going unless they happen to find it on their own (yes, they can frisk you as you go in). My reasoning is, if I can get in with a weapon with no intention of harming anyone, then a criminal with evil intent can too. And I trust my safety far more to myself than I do to any "rent a cop" at the door. I personally know teachers who carry weapons on school property - in the US. No one in the school knows they do but they are ready should some kid decide to reenact one of the numerous school shootings. If someone objects to my having a weapon that's their choice. But if they don't KNOW I have a weapon and are not providing for my security by doing a serious, comprehensive disarmament of ALL people entering the area then what they don't know may save my life - and their's too. That's my take on it. I'd never suggest anyone ignore gun laws or a company's gun policy. But we each have to answer for our decisions. I know that I'd rather be prepared and not need it than trust to some idiotic policy and be in the shoes of Dr. Susan Gratia, regretting that she was unable to preserve the life of her parents because she obeyed an anti constitutional law.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 9:58 am

bolt safe to vehicle structure somewhere

put gun in safe

set ear-shattering car alarm

go about business

also, the hospital can be private property, but it has a public interface, and the car is ALSO private property. so whose private property has priority? the public-access parking lot accepts private property, it should be PRIVATE PROPERTY. what is the legal basis of unauthorized searches by the hospital of the public's private property? isn't it a simple B&E?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:08 am

Blagojevich them.

Don't leave it in the open. Don't talk about it.

OTOH I dislike leaving guns in the car anyway. If you don't have to go through a metal detector or work near an MRI-style magnet, carry the bloody thing.

That's called "concealed carry" and they do NOT have the right to frisk you.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:14 am

We had a lady here who was a nurse at our local hospital....husband followed her to the parking lot in his car, got out and shot her point blank with a shotgun. Needless to say she was dead right there. Another work aquaintance of my wife had her estranged husband follow her to a Dr's appt. with two young sons in back seat. As she pulled up, he came in right behind her....shot the mom to death right in front of the boys as she sat in the drivers seat, and then turned the gun on himself. Like other places, criminals never pay attention to the rules, and innocent folks pay with their lives. I hope we can make headway with protecting folks's right to carry/have a weapon in their car at these places and where they work. They have a responsibility to secure it in public for sure though.

gunslinger598 · Post by **gunslinger598** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:26 am

My wife works in a county hospital here.

Guns are not permitted inside the building.

I can have one in my vehicle though.

Leaving a vehicle unattended for very long in a public lot like that invites vandals. Even though this is a small town it does happen.

This state recently passed a law that employers can not ban guns from being in a private vehicle.

This came about after about 15 employees of a large power company were terminated for just that and brought suit.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:30 am

gunslinger598 wrote:My wife works in a county hospital here.

Guns are not permitted inside the building...

No metal detector? Gun is "permitted". Nobody will ever know unless it is used to save lives.

At that point does the "job" matter?

Idiot · Post by **Idiot** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 1:20 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:No metal detector? Gun is "permitted".

Now that was easy, wasn't it.
Old Ironsights described my policy with uncommon precision.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:02 pm

I got randomly searched at the Main Gate @ Ft. Lewis......Had my AirLite in my pocket......They only looked at the truck....more for bombs, I'd say, than firearms....... Whew!....I don't go to Ft Lewis anymore, in spite of the savings at the commissary and PX...some things are just more important.

Hillbilly · Post by **Hillbilly** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 2:09 pm

dont ask dont tell...

side story... a buddy of mine from our wed nite skeet group made a service call at the state prision with his shotgun behind the seat.

He was inside doing his thing when he remembered it was Wed afternoon...he sweated it out and was sure the SWAT team would be after him any second.
I dont think anybody looks that close outside an airport TSA check.

Dont get me started about how lax the gate checks can be at Nukie powerplants..............

Jeff

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 6:21 pm

Kansas revamped their Concealed Carry laws to allow guns in cars for CCH holders in ALL public parking lots...private property or not...if the parking lot is used by the public and you keep it in your car the business has NO legal grounds for banning them from your car. This caused lots of stress with several area employers who were anti-gun. But they can't fire a CCH holder for having one in their car period. Now if the gun comes out of the car you are on your own. Kansas screws up so much, I'm surprised they had the foresight to get this one right.

Ed

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:20 pm

I'd be shocked if any state allowed searches of private vehicles on company property without cause. Now if there was just cause that's a different story, but otherwise I'd say they're open to lawsuits, and no company wants a lawsuit.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 7:40 pm

I think Florida and Oklahoma are two states that allow a gun in the car for CCW holders in parking lots. Kansas Ed above just mentioned Kansas as well having a similar statute. The "in the car in the parking lot for CCW holders" is what these states have determined to be a reasonable compromise between the property owner's rights and the individual's rights ... be it an employee or customer. As was mentioned previously, this was all brought on by an incident in Oklahoma at an oil company site I believe. In Florida, we have Marion P. Hammer keeping and eye on all of this stuff and making sure we don't fall behind other states in the gun rights area ... hence, we got it because Oklahoma was getting it. Marion doesn't mess around and we're lucky to have her here beating the drum in Florida.

I think it's a reasonable compromise. Though I'm not sure it would have helped all of those people shot by that kid in the mall last year. Only real CCW on the premises could have stopped that. The mall had signs posted prohibiting carry even by CCW holders. If any of those killed were CCW holders and weren't carrying, I would think the owners of that mall chain would be parting with large sums of cash. If you prohibit carry in a pro-carry state on your property, you may be assuming some liability for the safety of your patrons and/or employees.

There's a case pending down here about a security guard at Disney who was exercising his rights under the recent Florida law on this point. I've not heard what the progress is or whether Disney will be settling out of court, but they are apparently going to test the waters. It will be interesting.

Scott Young · Post by **Scott Young** » Thu Jan 29, 2009 10:48 pm

thanks for all the food for thought.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 4:00 am

I recently just sent in my CCW application, still waiting on the permit to come back. Here in KS it is now legal to leave your CCW piece in the car if the bldg is a no carry zone. However, I was reading that Texas prohibits leaving the firearm in your vehicle if the parking lot is posted as a no carry zone. Its best to do a google search and find out the CCW laws for your state. Best thing I can say is do your own risk analysis and weight the pros and cons and do what your conscious tells you!

Post by **AmBraCol** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 6:52 am

The answer to the question of "what to do if the building is marked as a criminal safe zone" is easy. If the company/county/state/feds or whatever don't want folks carrying on their premises then they should provide metal detectors at every entrance - no exceptions, EVERYONE goes through. And have an unloading zone where a handgun can be easily unloaded and then checked into a lock box. Upon exit the person receives their piece once more. And the company had BETTER ensure that folks will be cared for while on their property since they just pulled their teeth. Every public building I've been in down here has a "check your weapon" policy. I don't like it - but it sure beats the asinine "leave your weapon in the car" policy up in the US.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:35 am

Tycer wrote:Maybe in a ziplock in the air filter box....

Another idea along the same lines. Buy a box - not a bag - of kitty litter. They sell them at Wally-world. The litter is actually in a bag in the box. Put the gun in a ziplock bag and place it in the litter. Make sure is is a heavy bag - and/or wrap the gun in a cloth first (otherwise the litter may act like sandpaper on the finish!

). If they ask why she has a box of kitty litter in the car she can just say it is just in case she gets stuck in the snow. Of if you don't have snow and ice where you live, just say it is for the cats. I doubt they will dig through the litter.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 7:44 am

Kansas Ed wrote:Kansas revamped their Concealed Carry laws to allow guns in cars for CCH holders in ALL public parking lots...private property or not...if the parking lot is used by the public and you keep it in your car the business has NO legal grounds for banning them from your car. This caused lots of stress with several area employers who were anti-gun. But they can't fire a CCH holder for having one in their car period. Now if the gun comes out of the car you are on your own. Kansas screws up so much, I'm surprised they had the foresight to get this one right.

Ed

Actually, this is the way to go. State law establishes that (a) a person's vehicle is their private property and search requires the same just cause as search of their home or business (already pretty much accepted law); (b) that a parking lot open to the public, even on private property, must respect the private property rights of the vehicle owner, and most importantly, (c) that the parking lot property owner can not be sued by any party, or prosecuted by local, state or federal authorities, if anything happens with a firearm brought onto their property in a private vehicle without their knowledge.

Then it is really a matter of "don't ask - don't tell", and if the gun gets used to save someone's life (or the opposite), those involved are responsible for the consequences (as it should be), not a third party - the property owner (of the parking lot).

I don't think that many businesses are "anti-gun", even if their owner(s) is/are, or they contribute to anti-gun groups. The majority of these are probably just following legal advice and trying not to get sued out of their gourds. Protect the parking lot property owner, and the real knit-wits will fall out into the open PDQ!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 8:40 am

Sorry, no matter how many times I park in my employer's parking lot my automobile will never be his property, and he will never have my voluntary consent to trespass onto MY property.

If there is a requirement for a search, there better be a real cop with a real warrant conducting the search.

My private business is my private business, and my private property is my private property.

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:06 pm

FWiedner wrote:Sorry, no matter how many times I park in my employer's parking lot my automobile will never be his property, and he will never have my voluntary consent to trespass onto MY property.

If there is a requirement for a search, there better be a real cop with a real warrant conducting the search.

My private business is my private business, and my private property is my private property.

Well said Sir!

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 9:52 pm

Buy one of these boxes, paint it white and mark it "First Aid" with a big old red cross.

How many minimum wage renta-cops have the critical thinking skills to get past, "I keep it laocked and cabled to the seat frame so that my bee-sting medication can't be stolen."

Jack

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 10:19 pm

Blaine,
I won't go to Ft.Bliss or to Hollaman AFB with my uncle because of that.

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:12 pm

Here in Texas, as I was taught when I renewed my CHL a few months ago, parking lots are not allowed to be gun free zones. CHL holders must leave their gun in the car in a school parking lot if they go inside the school. Students on the other hand are subject to searches of their vehicles.
My employer officially does not want a concealed handgun license holder to carry at work, but they have never had me sign the legally required paperwork for them to forbid me from carrying. I cannot even be fired if caught the first time. If caught a second time, then I can be fired. I have never been caught.

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:18 pm

mescalero1 wrote:I think it is legal for a property owner to forbid guns on thier property, what I have trouble with is the searches.

+1,000,000

bogie

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Jan 30, 2009 11:24 pm

All I know is that our company took down the signs forbidding guns inside their HQ after the VA Tech shootings. Several employees have CCWs; guess the company figured that if they'd passed the background check they were free security.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:22 am

Griff wrote:All I know is that our company took down the signs forbidding guns inside their HQ after the VA Tech shootings. Several employees have CCWs; guess the company figured that if they'd passed the background check they were free security.

Too bad Va Tech wasn't that forward looking. Then they had the kitchen knife beheading....

Fairshake · Post by **Fairshake** » Sat Jan 31, 2009 9:54 am

This banning guns in certain areas is a back door way for the anti-gun people to get at honest gun owners. It's the same approach taken in Obama's home state with the having every round of ammunition registered. A CCW will do no good if each piece of property can set it's own rules to ban such. It would be a joke to even have one. I'm a former Deputy Sheriff in Baton Rouge, La. When I left the department after 15 years under stress and with medical problems I requested a retired commision and badge to allow me to continue to carry a weapon. I was turned down by the colonel who had a problem with me about 2 years prior. I still carried a weapon and have ever since. I will take my chance of being judged by 12 rather than carried by six.

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