Seasoning a barrel?

[awp101]

It takes 500+ rounds to season a lead bullet shooter and 1 jacket bullet to screw it up .

This quote from another thread got me to thinking...once the smoke cleared and the headache went away I wondered if a used barrel can be seasoned?

I tend to buy used firearms so unless I knew the owner when he bought it and was there everytime it was shot, I have no idea what types of bullets were used.

Would a thorough cleaning to remove the lead and copper be enough to start over or is the barrel what it is after a while?

Maybe some salt, pepper, oregeno, sage and garlic would help? (C'mon, I know at least half of you were comtemplating such a response.... )

[Tycer]

My cast bullet only guns started as unknowns. I cleaned them til no color came out and shoot them with proberly sized bullets and they hit in nice enough groups for me. I do not clean the bores of my cast bullet guns unless I have taken them out hunting where they might have sand/dust/dirt in them. Chambers yes, bore no. The bores have a shiny black finish like cast iron. The rare times I've scrubbed them spotless, there is no sign of anything other than a mirror finish. Takes about 20-30 rounds to get them black again.

[Don McDowell]

[quote="awp101
I tend to buy used firearms so unless I knew the owner when he bought it and was there everytime it was shot, I have no idea what types of bullets were used.

Would a thorough cleaning to remove the lead and copper be enough to start over or is the barrel what it is after a while?

)[/quote]

Yes cleaning a used barrel down to bare metal is a good idea. If there's not pitting in the bore it will likely shoot either jacketed or lead bullet just fine. Keep in mind that jacket fouling will raise holy ned with trying to get a lead bullet to shoot,so if you shoot jacketed and then want to go shoot some cast , best to make sure there's no copper laid in there someplace.

[Griff]

I tend to buy used firearms so unless I knew the owner when he bought it and was there everytime it was shot, I have no idea what types of bullets were used.
Would a thorough cleaning to remove the lead and copper be enough to start over or is the barrel what it is after a while?

Yes cleaning a used barrel down to bare metal is a good idea. If there's not pitting in the bore it will likely shoot either jacketed or lead bullet just fine. Keep in mind that jacket fouling will raise holy ned with trying to get a lead bullet to shoot,so if you shoot jacketed and then want to go shoot some cast , best to make sure there's no copper laid in there someplace.

Surprisingly, the inverse is also true, I can shoot lead thru my rifle all day long, then send a jacketed bullet with virtually no change in impact point. But, Don is correct, if I shoot a jacketed or two, it takes a good scrubbin' to get the bore back to lead friendly. My theory is that the copper fouling provides a spot upon which the lead stutters in its trip down the bore, (differences in surface between the copper fouling and steel, much the same a badly lead fouled bore acts). This is either due to the difference in surface tension alone, or possibly slight constriction of the bullet moving past this fouling and subsequent gas slippage past the base of the bullet. Also note, it matters not whether the bullet is gas-checked or not, copper fouling still plays havoc with accuracy in lead bullets.

[centershot]

Tycer is spot-on here! Provided that the rifle has a good bore to begin with, yes, you can thoroughly clean the piece and "re-season" it. This was standard procedure for our target rifles when I was shooting in smallbore competition - at the end of the season, or if accuracy had fallen of, we would thoroughly clean and then start shooting all over again. It would usually take 30-50 rounds before the gun would start grouping really well again. After 100 rounds you were good to go! The barrel might not see a cleaning brush again for 3-5000 rounds! I was talking to the rep from Eley at the National Matches many years ago, he told me they NEVER clean the bores of their test barrels! He said that after thousands of rounds there would be a stream of bullet lube dripping from the barrel down to the bench top that the machine rest was bolted to. They didn't worry about corrosion because the facility was climate controlled and the test barrels were fired several hundred times every day, there was no opportunity for corrosion to start. He also advised, however, for those of us out in the real world, clean the gun with an oiled patch between range sessions and wipe out the oil before using it again.

I am currently shooting cast bullets in a variety of Marlins in Lever-action silhouette mathes. Same rules apply - don't clean that bore once it has been seasoned with your cast bullet load. The oiled patch treatment is sufficient.

centershot

[O.S.O.K.]

I have found that this is all very specific to the gun in question. But I do agree that in general, jacket fouling is not good for cast bullet accuracy.

I usually clean thoroughly before shooting the cast bullets after jacketed. But I don't "season" the barrel unless it's a muzzleloader with black and then yes, you can season that and not have to clean with water and such if you shoot on a regular basis - just brush the fouling and give a good coat of bore butter between shoots. Works fine and no rust.

[Don McDowell]

[quote="Griffthen send a jacketed bullet with virtually no change in impact point. But, Don is correct, if I shoot a jacketed or two, it takes a good scrubbin' to get the bore back to lead friendly. My theory is that the copper fouling provides a spot upon which the lead stutters in its trip down the bore, (differences in surface between the copper fouling and steel, much the same a badly lead fouled bore acts). This is either due to the difference in surface tension alone, or possibly slight constriction of the bullet moving past this fouling and subsequent gas slippage past the base of the bullet. Also note, it matters not whether the bullet is gas-checked or not, copper fouling still plays havoc with accuracy in lead bullets.[/quote]

Griff you've pretty much just nailed the reason Badger barrels recommends using nitro and jacketed loads to breakin a new barrel. The procedure is to fire 1 round and clean removing all fouling. Do this to 10 rounds, then go to 2 rounds and clean, for another 10, and so on until there's no sign of copper fouling.
The reason being that there's natural roughness from the rifling of the barrel and the jacketed bullets will burnish this down to a nice smooth polish. If you have a barrel that's leaving copper fouling (and aren't shooting barnes x bullets) , or leading and having accuracy problems its most likely due to rough spots.
I seriously doubt that any "seasoning" done with todays modern steels will have any affect. Breakin procedures tho are quite a different story.

[Hobie]

It takes 500+ rounds to season a lead bullet shooter and 1 jacket bullet to screw it up .

This quote from another thread got me to thinking...once the smoke cleared and the headache went away I wondered if a used barrel can be seasoned?

I tend to buy used firearms so unless I knew the owner when he bought it and was there everytime it was shot, I have no idea what types of bullets were used.

Would a thorough cleaning to remove the lead and copper be enough to start over or is the barrel what it is after a while?

Maybe some salt, pepper, oregeno, sage and garlic would help? (C'mon, I know at least half of you were comtemplating such a response.... )

I know I did!

Seriously though, I don't think a barrel is seasoned in the way even a user of fine cast iron cookware would think of it. Break-in might be correct. However, I don't think that any break-in is worth the effort except perhaps in the benchrest game. Indeed there might even be some barrels where the accuracy is degraded by such an effort (but then, HOW does one prove THAT)?

PS - I should explain that comment a bit. I think that jacket fouling does impede the very best that barrel could do with cast bullets. Dittos with lead fouling when shooting jacketed. I don't believe that jacketed bullets will "shoot out" the lead fouling. I am fully aware that Junior (and he still is over on Cast Boolits) does believe in this concept, at least in using his own terms, and you really should ask him to expound. I know many small bore shooters (.22 LR match) who will not clean the bores on their rifles.

I should also point out that I must have rather pedestrian expectations. I only expect to hit what I shoot at and don't worry about another tenth of an inch in smaller groups on paper.

[Old Savage]

I have done very little cast bullet rifle shooting but using a Model 70 30-06 and 21 gr of 4759 and some 311284 bullets I had cast within 20 rounds I had a three shot group of .65" and within another 15 a 5 shot group of .82". Between the two groups were some 125 gr Nosler Ballistic tips. At this time the rifle had more than 1000 jacketed loads through it. I was stripping the bores clean with Sweets probably followed by a patch with Shooter's Choice and a dry patch as my cleaning between sessions with that rifle at that time. I have since gone to CR 10. It shot like a .22 with the cast.

My records show that the next thing I shot through that rifle after the last cast was 56.5 gr of IMR4831 and a Sierra 150 Spt that yielded a 3x.65" at 100 yds - all the groups were at 100 yds. The rifle was cleaned before this session.

Come to think of it I have also mixed shooting cast and jacketed in my 45-70 Marlins and that did not seem to matter.

Did not seem to matter in two pistols - a 44 Spl model 24 and a Springfield 1911 with 6,000 and 5,000 rds respectively with constantly mixed cast and jacketed - both are quite accurate.

So far in up to 6,000 in pistols and 1,500 in rifles I haven't seen them get anything but more accurate.

But, barrels are individuals which accounts in part for the differences reported and I doubt if any of us treats them the same shooter to shooter. Everyone seems to have their routines and preferences and if they shoot much work out something that works for them. To each his own.

My rifles love me and know they are supposed to shoot well.

Well now there is one thing now that I read Griff's next post. I never use brushes in my bores - don't even own any that I know of.

[Griff]

It takes 500+ rounds to season a lead bullet shooter and 1 jacket bullet to screw it up .

This quote from another thread got me to thinking...once the smoke cleared and the headache went away I wondered if a used barrel can be seasoned?
I tend to buy used firearms so unless I knew the owner when he bought it and was there everytime it was shot, I have no idea what types of bullets were used.

Seriously though, I don't think a barrel is seasoned in the way even a user of fine cast iron cookware would think of it. Break-in might be correct. However, I don't think that any break-in is worth the effort except perhaps in the benchrest game. Indeed there might even be some barrels where the accuracy is degraded by such an effort (but then, HOW does one prove THAT)?
PS - I should explain that comment a bit. I think that jacket fouling does impede the very best that barrel could do with cast bullets. Dittos with lead fouling when shooting jacketed. I don't believe that jacketed bullets will "shoot out" the lead fouling. I am fully aware that Junior (and he still is over on Cast Boolits) does believe in this concept, at least in using his own terms, and you really should ask him to expound. I know many small bore shooters (.22 LR match) who will not clean the bores on their rifles.
I should also point out that I must have rather pedestrian expectations. I only expect to hit what I shoot at and don't worry about another tenth of an inch in smaller groups on paper.

In modern rifles I would agree with Hobie, however, I do believe that muzzleloaders of yesteryear, with iron vs. steel barrels would take a "seasoning". Similar to the cast iron pot or pan, simple cleaning with either hot or cold water will not remove the "seasoning", but any cleaner or soap is very likely to. I only use hot water to clean my muzzle loaders or any BP exclusive shooters (rifle or revolvers) then recoat the barrel with a light oiling. Some shooters in the precision games don't clean their bores as they don't want that "1st shot" fouling to be for score. I have wondered what the ratio is among the BP cartridge shooters who don't wipe to those that do wipe between shots really is? For my own Sharps with BP I have to clean the chamber and throat just to chamber the 3rd or 4th shots, so I tend to wipe between each shot. (Very tight chamber and short throat for hunting vs. a longer throat as would be found in a paper patch bullet gun. I've used some PP in mine rifle, but the patch can't extend 1/8" beyond the case or it won't chamber in a clean gun.)

In my .30-30 match rifle, I like to shoot a fouling shot, then let 'er go for the rest of the day. But that barrel is the one that saw a break-in period much like Don described. One reason I haven't hunt with that gun but one trip. If I ever build the confidence to hunt with my own cast boolits, I might use it hunting again. Then again, my Mdl 64A is a much nicer rifle to carry afield. And she's not seen anything but jacketed ammo.

One piece of advice, maybe uncalled for, but... When going thru a break-in period, or even after, never interrupt your stroke thru the barrel with a change in direction... especially if using a wire brush.

YMMV.

[TX Gun Runner]

I'm not going to change anyone mind . I've shooting cast bullets in competition over 30 years , and won over 300 matches using cast bullet even against jacket bullet . I do not know any top cast bullet shooter in precision shooting will ever shoot a jacket in there gun . Copper and lead do not mix well . Lead sticks to copper and causes barrel to lead up fast and a leaded barrel will lose it accuracy . Now if you shoot at beer cans no big deal . I've lost matches by 1 point and a leaded barrel you will lose a lot more then 1 point . A pic is worth 1000 words .

[Hobie]

Iron barrels, yes I can see that. Especially since they used animal greases/fats for patch lubricants.

[86er]

I rarely clean my rifles - -aww who am I kidding - I never clean my rifles but Ricky cleans them for me once in a while. Anyway, I have not had any point of impact or velocity differences when shooting one type of bullet (either cast or lead) and switching back and forth. I've taken brand new rifles and shot a box of lead, a box of jacketed, a few hundred whatever and a few hundred of the other. I've personally never noticed a difference in overall accuracy or point of impact. The chrono says I've not lost any velocity and it is consistent with the same load from one time to another. I've never used really soft lead so I can't say whether that makes a difference or not. I think you were right about the oregano ...

[marlinman93]

A really good rifling job shouldn't need much in the way of "seasoning", as they should be either cut so smooth they wont need it, or lapped aready. Now a less than perfect rifling job will surely be helped by being properly broken in.
I'm a bit surprised that Badger reccommends such a lengthy process considering the reputation they have for turning out barrels that shoot wonderful right out of the box?

[Don McDowell]

A really good rifling job shouldn't need much in the way of "seasoning", as they should be either cut so smooth they wont need it, or lapped aready. Now a less than perfect rifling job will surely be helped by being properly broken in.
I'm a bit surprised that Badger reccommends such a lengthy process considering the reputation they have for turning out barrels that shoot wonderful right out of the box?

It's not that big of a process to follow the Badger breakin. It does pay off. Looking down a badger barrel is like looking thru a tubular mirror.
270 yds 45-70 CSA 75 rcbs 82084 bullet, 68 grs goex cartridge .030 fiber wad, less than 100 rounds thru the barrel

[rjohns94]

my experience for all practical shooting has agreed with 86er and Hobie. Now my flintlock has taken a nice seasoning using my patch butter. With match rifles, thats all different but none of my hunting rifles care if I shoot jacketed or lead. They all seem to shoot very well with either. Now if this care would squeak another .25 inch tighter group ???? I have no idea and it really just isnt that important to me. This has been an interesting discussion and no doubt the procedures have worked for all you guys who really need to get that extra bit of accuracy out of your rifles. It seems like a lot of work to me

[CowboyTutt]

I'm no expert on this subject, but I did notice something with "Old 3120", my 71/84 Mauser. When I first bought it, I scrubbed the barrel squeaky clean and noticed very mild pitting. After putting many rounds through it and not cleaning it with a brush but patches and solvent only, it is perfectly mirror smooth. Seems to shoot just fine too!

-Tutt

[TX Gun Runner]

I only put Douglas barrels on my guns and if you shoot cast or jacket they all need a breakin . And every barrel maker will tell you that . I build all my guns for competition. I shoot less that 200 jacket bullet a year , but I shoot over 15,000 cast bullets a year . I make most of my bullet molds . The XP100 [top] is a jacket shooter I built around 1990. The Ruger no3 is one of my cast shooters [bottom]. It shot the 2 target in earlier post . It took about a 1000 rds get it too shoot tight groups and no leading . All my target 10 shots not a lucky 5 shots .

[TX Gun Runner]

Here is 2 more I built

[awp101]

I should also point out that I must have rather pedestrian expectations. I only expect to hit what I shoot at and don't worry about another tenth of an inch in smaller groups on paper.

Sounds like me. I don't really think the 2 or 4 legged critter I'm shooting will point out the follow up shot could have been 0.10" closer to the first...

[CowboyTutt]

Accuracy has different meanings to different people. I'm used to shooting with iron sights and I only bench rest when "sighting in". But I also shoot at extreme long range and so my definition of accuracy is different. I highly respect what TN GunRunner has accomplished. If it shoots that well off a bench, you certainly have no excuses! Everything has its place.

-Tutt

[TX Gun Runner]

That XP100 I built it to carry on my dirt bike and to shoot coyotes and Jacks 300 to 500 yds in Ca . With a kill 8 out of 10 shots , with 4x12x40 scope . And yes every 1/10 inch counts on small targets at long yardage . I have the gun 4 sale in a gun shop with the good targets , with the better loads .

[Don McDowell]

[Sounds like me. I don't really think the 2 or 4 legged critter I'm shooting will point out the follow up shot could have been 0.10" closer to the first...

Bingo, for the most part if you get a used gun clean the barrel good and start from there. If you shoot jacketed and then decide to go to cast, you might be well advised to clean it out good first, but chances are for 99% of all practical shooting you could load the magazine jacketed and cast mixed and the jackets should all fall into the same group and the cast land in their group.
When we go after the 1000 yd+ targets with the bpcr's its a different story and every bit of accuracy we can squeeze out adds up big time.

[Old Savage]

Beautiful rifle.

[pdawg.shooter]

If lead and copper don't mix, why do CB shooters use gas checks? Me, I paper patch, great way to remove any fouling and a great way to jacketed performance from cast.

[TX Gun Runner]

If lead and copper don't mix, why do CB shooters use gas checks? Me, I paper patch, great way to remove any fouling and a great way to jacketed performance from cast.

If CB stands for pistol cap and ball shooters , They don't know any better and it is a very dangerous thing to do . If you mean cast bullet shooter , the grease on a cast bullet keeps the small bearing surface of a gas check in check , unlike a jacket bullet which has 20 times more bearing surface an no lube . 99% of the CB will never shoot a jacket in there gun . I know because I shot a lot for those matches

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