Puma 92 in 454 or Marlin in 45-70?

[savagefan]

Howdy! I'm looking for a lever to complement my Marlin 94 in .357 mag (love it) but want a 100 yd. or so deer rifle. May I ask what you'd prefer and why. Thanx.

[Chuck 100 yd]

.45-70 No other choice for me!

[Old Ironsights]

Without having a .454 pistol, I'd also go with the Marlin.

If I still had my revolver though...

[Old Savage]

Well you already have a light gun and the 45-70 has more power potential and is much more reasonable to shoot. So, I would go with it.

[Jaguarundi]

The 45-70.The recoil is wild in the 454 Puma due to its light weight.Some owners of the Puma 454 have had issue with the mag tube working loose(designed not to work loose but QC maybe the issue in the failures) and the forearm splitting(QC fit maybe).The 45-70 can be had in heavier weight bullets and loads than the 454.

[Duff L Bagg]

I have both, 2 Marlin 45-70's (the CB and the SS) and a Puma 454.
The puma kicked like a mule when I first bought it, but after replacing the rock hard recoil pad with a kick Ezz pad it was tamed down to a very manageable level.
Either one will work out to a hundred yards with no problem the 45-70 will reach out just a tad bit further than the 454. The Puma is a nice light easy to carry, fast to the shoulder carbine that speaks with authority. The Marlin can be had in many different configurations and is a time proven design. In my opinion you can't go wrong with either choice.

[AJMD429]

SInce you already have a 'carbine' type gun that can flatten whitetail out to 100 yards, I'd get the larger full-size Marlin (I'd get it in .444 though, but that's another story). Anyway, no sense going for the .454 if its only realy advantage is trading off a slight amount of power for 'handiness' - you already HAVE 'handiness' in the .357, plus you'd have a PAIR of Marlins - how cool!

[Curiousgb]

I like the puma's but I love my SS. I was at the range sighting in my XS sight on my Marlin on Friday. It amazes me how accurate the Marlin is, and you can load it from mild to wild.

[Buffboy]

I already had a revolver in 454 so a carbine in 454 is what I chose. If a 454 pistol is on your short list, then the 454 makes good sense. It has nearly(or =) the same power level when the bullets are under 325gr and you only have one caliber to feed. The lightweight carbine does kick more than the Marlin given equal power levels.

If you don't have a 454 pistol, or not planning to get one, I'd say the 45-70 would be the way to go. It is much better with heavier bullets. Handloaded or with premium factory ammo it will exceed the 454 performance quite handily. It will also be a bit less expensive to feed, though with handloading it's about the same for price.

[Tycer]

45-70

[savagefan]

Thank you for the replies. Looks like Marlin is the way to go. AJMD429, interesting you pick the 444 may I ask why? It is a better companion to my .44 Ruger, sort of.

[bbleverfan]

i have a puma 92 454 and i love the looks,feel and the action of this gun everyone talks of the recoil i dont see it being any more than my 1895g 45-70 but maybe its just in my head that it dont kick that bad.but i would say probably get the 45-70 then again if you think this itch for a 454 will come up again later on you may want to go for the 454 now as they may be tough to find in the future.

[86er]

The 45-70 is more versatile, more readily available, as potent or more depending on the load and the rifle can be souped or and individualized more readily.

[Warhawk]

I decided against the 454 Puma after seeing reports of split stocks and fore ends, and mag tube issues. Now that LSI isn't going to import the 454 Puma I would definitely stay away as it could be a problem to get warranty work done.

[jeepnik]

45-70. It can be loaded mild to wild. And once the .454 tops out, the 45-70 has a long way to go.

[BlueStateSaint]

86er put it the way I was going to put it. .45/70 is the way to go.

[TedH]

45-70

[Str8man]

Howdy! I'm looking for a lever to complement my Marlin 94 in .357 mag (love it) but want a 100 yd. or so deer rifle. May I ask what you'd prefer and why. Thanx.

I personally have a weakness for 45-70's so I am biased but I also think it is too much gun for deer.
It is THE caliber that got me in the habit of making head and neck shots on deer.
For Elk it is excellent though!
I have an original 92 Winchester 32-20 rifle that was re-bored to .357 and it is my main deer rifle.
I'm up to 16 one shot kills on deer with it and rarely use anything else for deer anymore.
If you just want another rifle the two choices you mentioned would be tough.
I'd probably go with the 45-70 but only because I am already set up to reload 45-70.
I have a Sharps I load 415 grain gas checks up with 49 grains of h322 that are just smoking bear and elk loads but I don't know that a 454 would be any less effective.
I tried loading the 45-70 down to the usual 1300 fps with a 300 grain bullet but it still can do a lot of tissue damage, even on big mulies.
but the 454 in a carbine would be a handy lightweight gun.
I'm not going to be much help because I could go either way with that decision.
Lean towards the 45-70 but if I thought about the 454 too much my obsessive compulsive disorder might kick in and I couldn't sleep until I had the 454.
I am having a similar battle with myself over an 1866 or 73 Winchester copy in 45 colt.
Do I need it, or do I want it?
I don't think need is the issue with me.
I'm sorry, I'm probably being no help at all.
I can only quote my best friend who always says, "No matter what. there's no such thing as having too many guns"

[AJMD429]

Thank you for the replies. Looks like Marlin is the way to go. AJMD429, interesting you pick the 444 may I ask why? It is a better companion to my .44 Ruger, sort of.

1. I'm not convinced anything you shoot with a .458 vs. .430 bullet can tell the difference, or will live long enough to complain about it. Yes, there are theoretical differences, and the big, heavy bullets 'win' in the .45-70 platform, and the not quite as big, but a bit faster, bullets 'win' in the .444 platform, but seriously, it's like the difference between the .308 and .30-06, or the 6mm Rem and .243 Win. Pull Trigger - Boom - Big Hole in Target

2. You can have ".45's" but the pistols and .454 Casull carbine will shoot .452 and the .45-70 rifles will shoot .458, so unless you plan to swage your bigger bullets down, you'll have two sizes to stock. If you ALWAYS want to shoot the 400+ grainers in the .458 and ALWAYS shoot the lightweights in the .452, that's cool, but... if you opt for the .44 Mag and .444 Marlin, you can shoot .430's in BOTH of them. Folks say the twist rate for the .444 won't stabilize 'heavy' bullets, but given the neat HOLE my .444 makes in a hundred yard 1/2" steel gong using a regular 240 gr soft point, I'm not convinced I really NEED a bigger bullet on this continent. Besides, the 1:20 rifling on an XLR Marlin will stabilize up to 470 grains according to many who know more than I do - http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-3_Twist.htm for one. Still, I'll use the 400+ when I find something that doesn't drop on the spot with a 240 grainer (not likely here in Indiana).

Marlin XLR .444 - http://www.marlinfirearms.com/firearms/xlr/444.asp
My XLR (imperfect but fixed now) - http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... &view=next


So, in times of ammo and gun bans and restrictions, it just makes sense to have a pile of 240 grain bullets in .430, and a 44 Mag carbine that will spit them out fast and flat enough to kill a whitetail out to 150 yards, and a 444 Rifle that will do the same out to 300 yards when you don't mind the extra weight and bulk, or will de-grizzly a bear if needed at closer range. Then you can use the 44 Mags in your pistols, too...!

I have NOTHING against the .45-70, but the 'inventory' thing, which for many serious reloaders isn't a problem, and God help us may never be.

[savagefan]

Very interesting logic AJMD429, got me thinking even more now (ouch). Nice rig BTW kinda what I'm leaning toward.

[rjohns94]

45-70 though if you get a .457 mag from WWG - you can shoot both.

[AJMD429]

Very interesting logic AJMD429, got me thinking even more now (ouch). Nice rig BTW kinda what I'm leaning toward.

Dream Team:

Marlin XLR .444 with 5-20x scope
Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag ghost ring peeps
Ruger Super Blackhawk Stainless .44 Mag 7-1/2"
Charter Arms Pug Stainless .44 Spl 2"

These guys all CAN use the same 240 grain jacketed soft points....



CCW, Farm Chores, Whitetail, and Mother Bears - all with the same bullet diameter, and I'm not sure but what the 240 grain soft point wouldn't do for each one, for anything I'd ever need to shoot at.

And yes, the .45-70 does have a 'wildcat' enabling the same concept, or you could use the series of .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and .460 S&W, but the Casull seems to 'push' the carbines a bit strength-wise, and nobody has a stock .460 S&W levergun. All the guns in my Dream Team are factory items (and I have two of the four so far...)

[Warhawk]

Very interesting logic AJMD429, got me thinking even more now (ouch). Nice rig BTW kinda what I'm leaning toward.

Dream Team:

Marlin XLR .444 with 5-20x scope
Marlin 1894SS .44 Mag ghost ring peeps
Ruger Super Blackhawk Stainless .44 Mag 7-1/2"
Charter Arms Pug Stainless .44 Spl 2"

CCW, Farm Chores, Whitetail, and Mother Bears - all with the same bullet diameter, and I'm not sure but what the 240 grain soft point wouldn't do for each one, for anything I'd ever need to shoot at.

And yes, the .45-70 does have a 'wildcat' enabling the same concept, or you could use the series of .45 Colt, .454 Casull, and .460 S&W, but the Casull seems to 'push' the carbines a bit strength-wise, and nobody has a stock .460 S&W levergun. All the guns in my Dream Team are factory items (and I have two of the four so far...)

I like the way you think, I'm a fan of the .44 myself and recently sold off the last two I had in .45 Colt. My son has a USFA and is going to inherit a pile of .45 Colt components <G>.

Another .44 you might consider, maybe instead of the Charter Arms, is the Rossi 720. The two I've had were 3 inch adjustable sight versions, but they also made a DAO fixed sight model.

I do have a couple of 45-70's, both Marlins.

My .44s include

Ruger Flat Top (OM) 4 5/8"
Ruger Super Blackhawk (OM) 4 5/8"
Ruger Stainless Vaquero 4 5/8"
S&W 629 Mountain Gun
S&W 629 Classic 5"
S&W 629 Classic 6.5"
Browning B92
Winchester 94 XTR .444 Marlin

And I'm having Steve Young work over a stainless 92 trapper for me.

I still need to get a Marlin 1894, maybe a Cowboy.

[piller]

Having never fired a 444, I won't say anything that way. Between the 454 and the 45-70, I'd choose the 45-70. Having fired these two, I like them both, but I can't disagree with any of the logic presented as it is my thinking also. The only problem I have with the 45-70 is that the rounds are becoming expensive, but nowadays, what bullet isn't going up in price.

[6pt-sika]

Obviousely there are two questions for me to add my thoughts on !

In the first whether to get a Puma or Marlin thats a piece of cake . Buy american and get the Marlin .


Now as to whether the 444 is a better round then the 45-70 . I suppose alot of it stems from what you want to do with the round .

I for one have dealt with quite a few 444's and 45-70's over the last few years and have no less then SEVEN Marlin's in 45-70 and ELEVEN Marlin's in 444 .

Some are set up strcitly for jacketed bullets and others just cast bullets . Here for the last 6 months I have been doing quite a bit of shooting with variouse cast bullets in the 444 and have gone as high as 400 grains with decent but not excellent results so far .

I can tell you one thing it is a heck of alot easier to get a 45-70 to shoot 400 grain plus cast bullets then it is to get a 444 to shoot 350 grain plus cast bullets . And as to the jacketed thing a 444 goes no higher then 305 grains for any jacketed round I could find ! And the 45-70 has decent jacketed bullets up to 405 grains .

Now let me regress a bit . The likelyhood of one actually needing such heavy bullets is most likely slim to none . But just knowing you can go heavier isn't always a bad thing either !

I vote for the 45-70 over the 444 hands down .

[savagefan]

Great responses, thanx so much. 6pt sika I'm with you on "Buy American' even though I live in Canada. It's starting to look like i'll need a few more levers than I first realized. I guess that can't hurt the economy much. I doubt I'll get into cast bullets, but you never know. Hornady xtp when I can get them for my Marlin, work great and I've shot a guy's 45 70 leverevolution at the range, again very nice. My Savage bolts are so accurate they're kinda boring. These levers are just so darn cool, any non shooter I take to the range always wants to shoot and get photographed with the Marlin the most. Now if Savage will get the 99 back in production, look out!

[shdwlkr]

For me it is easy 45-70 as it will do more then the 454 period. the old timers shot 7/8 of mile with the 45-70 and I haven't heard of the 454 doing that.
besides there is a lot more information on the 45-70 then any of the new calibers and a wider powder selection if you reload and a lot of different bullets that can be used. Don't think that the 454 can be had in a 450 grain bullet like the 45-70 and it is usually in a heavier rifle which reduces felt recoil.
Just my thoughts and I could be totally wrong but I don't think I am. I do have one hang up and that is I don't like short barreled rifles except the m1a with an 18 1/2 inch barrel instead of the 22 inch barrel but that is for a special reason.

[AJMD429]

It's starting to look like i'll need a few more levers than I first realized.

Guys - I think he's hooked...!

Now if Savage will get the 99 back in production, look out!

I've wondered why Ruger doesn't make their 96/44 a 'big brother' in some of the trendy 'short magnums' or in a big stick round like .460 S&W or something like that; it doesn't look like the actions are all that different.

[Jaguarundi]

I luv my 1895 XLR.(not to twist your arm)

[savagefan]

Ouch! thanx a lot Jaguarundi!

[pomofo]

The 45-70.The recoil is wild in the 454 Puma due to its light weight.Some owners of the Puma 454 have had issue with the mag tube working loose(designed not to work loose but QC maybe the issue in the failures) and the forearm splitting(QC fit maybe).The 45-70 can be had in heavier weight bullets and loads than the 454.

While I'm partial to the Puma 454, I have to agree with the part about recoil. I just shot my Puma today for the first time in 6 months, and even the heavy 45 Colt loads felt stout. What I do remember being pretty mild were the first few loads I worked up with the 405 grain Beartooth bullet. According to Quickload my loads were topping out at 1300fps, and the report sounded like what I would imagine a potato gun would sound like, just a strong "Thunk."

As for bullet weight, I've shot everything from 250 up to 405 grains, and I'm planning on loading some 535 grain Ranger Rick cast bullets, seated to a COAL of 2.000" and single-fed through the top. I like the fact that I can load down to light 45 Colt cowboy loads and all the way up to some real shoulder thumpers, and everything inbetween.