Sharps reloading question

[Str8man]

Why would a 45-70 with a 350 grain bullet with 53.0 grains of H322 powder average 1928 fps when a heavier 405 grain with gas check which makes it a 415 grain bullet is actually faster and averages 2007 fps out of my Sharps?
It seems the heavier bullet would be slower to me but it isn't chronographing that way.
I've been shooting this all morning through the chronograph and it's pretty consistent.
It's making me scratch my head.
It just seems like the lighter bullet would be faster to me with the same powder charge but it isn't.

[cowboykell]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

[JReed]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

Yep cowboykell got it right. Now if you were looking at a 350gr compared to a 500gr yes you would be right that the lighter slug would go faster. The 405gr takes up just the right amount of case space compared to the 350 that the pressure is higher but the dif in weight is small enough that you get higher velocity.

[Levergun]

Yep.....It is actually very simple and alot of folks don't realize that your barrel is and extention of your cartridge/case.

It take a certain amount of pressure inside the case to push the bullet out of the case, but that does not mean that all of the powder in the case was burnt up during that process. (If it was, you would slow down as the bullet travels through the barrel.) So you want to load so that once the bullet leave the case, the powder is still burning in the barrel and creating pressure behind the bullet until it leaves the barrel and is in free flight.

This is why, in most cases, a longer barrel with a standard load will give you a faster velocity.

If you reload, and study some reloading manuals and literature this will affect how you load your round for each rifle. What I mean is, I do not load the same load for my 30-30 carbine as I do for my 30-30 rifle. (Carbine being 20" BBL and Rifle 26" BBL)

Man O Man....This could go on for quite a spell, couldn't it........

[Andrew]

I had a hunch that 405 was some kind of magic size for the 45-70 because of all the factory ammo in that weight.

[Levergun]

I had a hunch that 405 was some kind of magic size for the 45-70 because of all the factory ammo in that weight.

No it is not....Actually. my Sharps shoots the original Winchester 500 Gr. bullet mold better than the original 405 gr. mold I have. It also shoots my Lyman Postel 538gr. bullet more accurately than my Win. 405 gr. bullet. BUT! the original Win. bullet molds have HUGE lube grooves. Teh Lyman does not. So I can shoot more Win. bullets through my bore more accurately than my Lyman Postel before the barrel started to foul.

Does that make sencse?

I do not have an original 500gr. Win. mold for the 45-70 because I can not justify spending close to $300-500 bucks for a bullet mold.

[Andrew]

Oops. That's why I don't get paid to think for a living.

[Redhawk1]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

You hit the nail on the head....


Str8man, be careful loading a 405 gr. bullet with the same load data of a 350 gr. bullet. You can develop to much pressure and blow up your gun.

When I was shooting my Shiloh Sharps, I was using 70 gr. of black powder and 535 gr. Postell bullets at 1200 fps, and blowing right through deer. I don't see the need for too much speed with big bullets.

[Doc Hudson]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

I was thinking the same thing.

[Levergun]

Good points, I should have mentioned that I was loading 68gr. of Fg in my loads. I am currently getting geared up to switch over to smokeless due to powder availablility and cost.

[Don McDowell]

. I am currently getting geared up to switch over to smokeless due to powder availablility and cost.

BACO right in your back yard is now distributor for Swiss and Shuetzen, and Grafs will ship you just one pound if that's all you want.(goex,shuetzen and swiss) Powder Inc. ships in 5 lb lots. (Goex, Shuetzen, Swiss, Kik, Skirmish, and Diamond Back)

[Str8man]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

You hit the nail on the head....


Str8man, be careful loading a 405 gr. bullet with the same load data of a 350 gr. bullet. You can develop to much pressure and blow up your gun.

When I was shooting my Shiloh Sharps, I was using 70 gr. of black powder and 535 gr. Postell bullets at 1200 fps, and blowing right through deer. I don't see the need for too much speed with big bullets.

I'm careful about that. Both those loads of H322 are listed in the loading manual for Marlins,
I shoot with a group of big bore shooters and we've researched it pretty heavily and the Pedersoli and Shiloh's are capable of handling the Marlin type loads with H322 as the pressures are not that severe with that powder.
I generally load 50 grains of H322 but was playing with the top end the other day.
I don't generally use a 45-70 for deer as I think it's a bit too much and does a lot of meat damage. It's a great elk, moose (if I ever draw one) and bear round though.
I like the high powered .415 bullet as I have had several face to face encounters with Grizzlies while hunting in the past couple of years, I haven't had to shoot one but with the Sharps being a single shot if I ever did have one charge I want the hottest round I can put into him as there won't be a second chance.
Some of the guys are using 3031 as that is a slower burning lower pressure powder as well but I have had better luck with the H322 and a gas check wheel weight bullet.

[Don McDowell]

According to the Lyman 48 manual those loads your shooting are into the Ruger #1 territory.
Your Italian gun was proofed for bp load pressures (trapdoor)
I'ld be a bit cautious about feeding your rifle a very big diet of those warm loads. Even if it were a Big Timber built gun.

[Str8man]

According to the Lyman 48 manual those loads your shooting are into the Ruger #1 territory.
Your Italian gun was proofed for bp load pressures (trapdoor)
I'ld be a bit cautious about feeding your rifle a very big diet of those warm loads. Even if it were a Big Timber built gun.

I have to respectfully disagree.
That's not quite correct,
Here is their proof statement.
They are actually proofed to 30 % ABOVE standard 45-70 factory ammo which is universally loaded to black powder trapdoor specifications in case someone shoves factory ammo in an original trapdoor, (which I do myself occasionally) That being 29,000 CUP's brings it up close to being proofed at 37,000 CUP which is above what the loads I am using are.
Some of the guys I shoot with have over 5,000 rounds of this loading through their Pedersolis with no signs of stress.
Pedersoli actually doesn't recommend black powder in their Sharps but im sure it's ok to use.
I used it myself but got tired of all the cleaning.
Here is their proof statement, I am still within their proof limts with the loads I mentioned above.

PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT
All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ˜commercial™ factory made ammunition by 30 %.
For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

C.I.P WARNING

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

[Doc Hudson]

Good points, I should have mentioned that I was loading 68gr. of Fg in my loads. I am currently getting geared up to switch over to smokeless due to powder availablility and cost.

Why bother?

Smokeless powder is an answer to an unasked question, and it doesn't smell good.

Besides, smokeless powder is just a passing fad. Pretty soon they'll quit making it.

[Don McDowell]

According to the Lyman 48 manual those loads your shooting are into the Ruger #1 territory.
Your Italian gun was proofed for bp load pressures (trapdoor)
I'ld be a bit cautious about feeding your rifle a very big diet of those warm loads. Even if it were a Big Timber built gun.

I have to respectfully disagree.
That's not quite correct,
Here is their proof statement.
They are actually proofed to 30 % ABOVE standard 45-70 factory ammo which is universally loaded to black powder trapdoor specifications in case someone shoves factory ammo in an original trapdoor, (which I do myself occasionally) That being 28,000 CUP's brings it up close to being proofed at 37,000 CUP which is above what the loads I am using are.
Some of the guys I shoot with have over 5,000 rounds of this loading through their Pedersolis with no signs of stress.
Pedersoli actually doesn't recommend black powder in their Sharps but im sure it's ok to use.
I used it myself but got tired of all the cleaning.
Here is their proof statement, I am still within their proof limts with the loads I mentioned above.

PEDERSOLI PROOF TESTING STATEMENT
All Pedersoli rifles are proof tested at the (Italian government) National Firing Proof House with smokeless powder cartridges with a pressure exceeding that of the ˜commercial™ factory made ammunition by 30 %.
For the .45-70 caliber we normally recommend the use of commercially made ammunition because of it being easily available on the world market. We show here some warnings about C.I.P. rules:

C.I.P WARNING

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.

Actually cleaning up a bp loaded gun is quicker and easier than trying to get all the smokeless stuff out of the barrel.

Suit your self on the pressures thing, but it begs the question,.... So do you run all your guns at proof test load levels?

[Str8man]

No. As I mentioned previously I generally run 49 or 50 grains of H322 but was just playing with the max load that day.
Some of the guys I shoot with routinely run em at maximum but I stay lower myself.
49-50 grains is about my maximum load.
I have a lot of black powder left but with the noose tightening on black powder since it is a true explosive I switched to smokeless for cleaning purposes and also to conserve my black powder supply for my flintlocks as flintlocks do not work with the black powder substitutes like Pyrodex or 777.
I had to have all my black powder shipped in from Ohio as you can't buy it over the counter anywhere within a couple hundred miles of me so I just hoard it for my flintlocks (which I have a weakness for just like lever guns)
I actually think it may be in another thread where I mentioned my usual Sharps load is 49 grains.
respectfully,
Dave

[Don McDowell]

No. As I mentioned previously I generally run 49 or 50 grains of H322 but was just playing with the max load that day.
Some of the guys I shoot with routinely run em at maximum but I stay lower myself.
49-50 grains is about my maximum load.
I have a lot of black powder left but with the noose tightening on black powder since it is a true explosive I switched to smokeless for cleaning purposes and also to conserve my black powder supply for my flintlocks as flintlocks do not work with the black powder substitutes like Pyrodex or 777.
I had to have all my black powder shipped in from Ohio as you can't buy it over the counter anywhere within a couple hundred miles of me so I just hoard it for my flintlocks (which I have a weakness for just like lever guns)
I actually think it may be in another thread where I mentioned my usual Sharps load is 49 grains.
respectfully,
Dave

There's no noose tightening on bp. You can still get all you want(up to 50 lbs per person per year) from Grafs, PowderInc, Coonies, Bear River Powder, and Track of the Wolf , to name but a few.

You keep those 415's down around the 1600 mark they'll do quite well
If you're really het up to shoot a grizz, go with a 500 gr government bullet at 1400 or so.
Like Elmer Keith said you can shoot something with those big bores and eat right up to the hole.

[Str8man]

No. As I mentioned previously I generally run 49 or 50 grains of H322 but was just playing with the max load that day.
Some of the guys I shoot with routinely run em at maximum but I stay lower myself.
49-50 grains is about my maximum load.
I have a lot of black powder left but with the noose tightening on black powder since it is a true explosive I switched to smokeless for cleaning purposes and also to conserve my black powder supply for my flintlocks as flintlocks do not work with the black powder substitutes like Pyrodex or 777.
I had to have all my black powder shipped in from Ohio as you can't buy it over the counter anywhere within a couple hundred miles of me so I just hoard it for my flintlocks (which I have a weakness for just like lever guns)
I actually think it may be in another thread where I mentioned my usual Sharps load is 49 grains.
respectfully,
Dave

There's no noose tightening on bp. You can still get all you want(up to 50 lbs per person per year) from Grafs, PowderInc, Coonies, Bear River Powder, and Track of the Wolf , to name but a few.

You keep those 415's down around the 1600 mark they'll do quite well
If you're really het up to shoot a grizz, go with a 500 gr government bullet at 1400 or so.
Like Elmer Keith said you can shoot something with those big bores and eat right up to the hole.

I'm actually talking about the future of black powder in general with the current administration and the federal regulations that have tightened enough in the last few years that no-one around here around here sells it anymore.
It is much harder to get particularly since I live in such a remote area that UPS doesn't deliver here.
I used to buy it over the counter but the new regs say the stores have to have a specially constructed "powder magazine" for BP so everyone around here just quit selling rather than fork over the bucks to build a magazine that met federal regulations which I would wager was the real reason they put the regulations into effect in the first place.
We'll have to wait and see what happens but if I can shoot with something I can buy over the counter and save my black powder for the guns that really need it then I'm just better off.
I have a couple cases for my flinters and I used to shoot it in cartridge guns but it's strictly for my flinters now.
And I have no desire to actually shoot a grizzly LOL!
Federal prison doesn't sound like a lot of fun.
I would only shoot one if they charged and having had some REAL close encounters it is a real possibility.
I use the 50 grain H322 load for Elk and black bear and the fact that it is the most accurate load for my rifle, I go lower or higher and the accuracy drops off to some degree.
I think the 49 to 50 grain load is the sweet spot in my rifle.
That's what I was testing when I first asked this question and noticed the different velocities.
My buddy's Sharps is more accurate with the 53.0 grain load so I tried it to see how it worked in my Sharps but the groups opened up a bit from my 50.0 grain load.
It gives me the tightest groups of everything I have shot out of that gun and I am a real stickler about accuracy.
It's pretty clear that I'll never sell you on smokeless but it works for me and works well.
Dave

[Don McDowell]

Well I have to admit to never hearing of some place so remote in the lower 48 that UPS won't deliver. Grafs ships powders many times on FEDEX.(we're 42 miles out) If I was you I'ld call Western Powders in Miles City and see who's dealing bp. They are a master Goex distributor.
Powder magazines were the law of the land 30 years ago , when I had a store front business, complete with the explosives license. Folks tell me nowdays the insurance is worse to deal with than the government.
When Hogdons bought Goex they said they're goal is to increase distribution, the best way they can get that done is to keep on with the reclassification of bp that Goex started, and insiders tell me they are doing just that.
100 rounds per can, a case of bp will go a long ways in a sharps.
When you get your gas checks and smokeless to shoot 5shot 270 yd groups like this let me know

[Str8man]

Well I have to admit to never hearing of some place so remote in the lower 48 that UPS won't deliver. Grafs ships powders many times on FEDEX.(we're 42 miles out) If I was you I'ld call Western Powders in Miles City and see who's dealing bp. They are a master Goex distributor.
Powder magazines were the law of the land 30 years ago , when I had a store front business, complete with the explosives license. Folks tell me nowdays the insurance is worse to deal with than the government.
When Hogdons bought Goex they said they're goal is to increase distribution, the best way they can get that done is to keep on with the reclassification of bp that Goex started, and insiders tell me they are doing just that.
100 rounds per can, a case of bp will go a long ways in a sharps.
When you get your gas checks and smokeless to shoot 5shot 270 yd groups like this let me know

You're missing my point,
I already HAVE a couple of cases of black powder stored away. I don't need anymore.
That will probably last me the rest of my life for shooting flintlocks.
I have 24 pounds of H322 (three 8 pound containers) so I'm afraid I'm committed to using smokeless in my Sharp's the rest of my life as well.
And no UPS doesn't deliver here but I don't need them to either.
I'm 8 miles from the BC border back in the mountains and about 80 percent of the roads are unmarked. I pick up my regular mail 45 miles from my house.
UPS won't come because they can't find "Dave's house, 42 miles up from highway 2 and make a left go 3 and a half miles down the unmarked road and turn right on the first unmarked two track you see and follow that for 8 miles and turn left again at the 5th unmarked road to your left and follow that to the "T" and then turn left on the unmarked two track and go about one more mile and he's back in the woods there somewhere in that general area."
That's about the best way I can describe to UPS how to get to my place.
They won't come here
I have enough powder to last me and we have guys in our club that can probably shoot that good with smokeless. I can even pull it off myself at 200 yards on a good day with a perfect wind and holding my tongue just right.
I don't know how we got into this conversation, all I asked was why the 415 gas check was going faster than the 350 grain .

[Don McDowell]

OOkydoky then.
Your 415 gr bullet is going faster because you're building up somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k cup or more, the lighter bullet is only trotting out around 30k cup. Lots a pressure for a bp designed rifle.

[cowboykell]

Heavier bullet causes increase in pressure causing increase in fps.

[Hillbillygunsmith]

I have own a Pedersoli 1874 Sharps for about 6 years. Upon buying it and working up a smokeless load I contacted the Pedersoli company for infromation on what the sharps rifles were rated for pressure wise.
I was referred to Dick Trent, who was in charge of their shooting program and he advised me that Pedersoli would honor their warranty on the sharps as long as the loads did not exceed 29,000 CUP. Anything over that and you void any warranty. The proof loads were over 35,000 and they sprung the breechblock .003 over 72,000 CUP.
He also related to me that he had "heard" that Shiloh Sharps had tested one of their rifles to 115,000 before it burst the chamber. The Pedersoli Sharps is considered stronger then the Shiloh due to the Pedersoli being a "forged" action as compared to the Shiloh being a "cast" action and the Pedersoli Sharps has a .050 thicker action walls.
To avoid any warranty problems, I have kept my loads at or under the 29,000 CUP reccommendation. Even at that those 400-405 gr. loads at 29,000 CUP will rattle your teeth and that steel butt plate will knock the stuff out of your shoulder. I do not see any need to go higher, even for a Grizzy bear or Kodiak bear.
As for accuracy, it is very darn hard to beat the Pedersoli for black or smokless loads. My deer load was a Sierra 300 gr. jacket HP behind 41 grains of IMR-4198 and I have shot that load into a 1.5 inch group at 200 yards using the Vernier rear sights with globe front sights. The two guys who witnessed it could not believe a older style single shot rifle could outshoot their bolt guns.

[Str8man]

OOkydoky then.
Your 415 gr bullet is going faster because you're building up somewhere in the neighborhood of 35k cup or more, the lighter bullet is only trotting out around 30k cup. Lots a pressure for a bp designed rifle.

They may have originally ben designed for black powder but that's because black powder was the only powder they had in those days.
That doesn't mean it was a bad or weak design.
Regardless, the new Pedersoli's and certainly the Shiloh's are much improved.
Even at 35 K I am still safely below the 37.000K maximum proof load.
It's just not an issue when I've seen these rifles with thousands of rounds through them still shooting with no stress related issues.

Below is a copy of the standard letter Pedersoli provides to customers who ask about the proof test pressures for their Black Powder Ctg. Rifles.

Our guns are proof tested according to the rules imposed by C.I.P. (International Proof Commission). Proof test pressure is 30% stronger than the maximum pressure of a commercial cartridge (Pmax.) Pmax pressures are measured in BAR units.
The mentioned data are compared to the Crusher (CUP) and PSI method.
The equivalent maximum pressure value of the commercial cartridges measured according to the English/American P.S.I. and C.U.P. system is obtained by multiplying the BAR value x 14.5037.

This pressure is allowable for modern made Pedersoli rifles in 38-55, 40-65, 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120, 50-70, and 50-90. It may not be safe with other brands of replica arms and those mfrs. must be consulted for their data.

The modern replica Sharps, Rolling Block and Trapdoor models we produce are stronger than their original versions due in part to improved steels as well as minor changes made to strengthen original design weakness and add some discrete safety features.


I am VERY cautious about maximum loadings and pressures and research them very thoroughly. If you read my post about the 73 Winchester in 357 you'll see that I do check things out completely before making a descision. In that case I called the manufacturer themselves and got the information directly from them.
The area in the letter in bold should put to rest any worries about the strength of the Pedersoli Sharps rifles,
They may look the same but the differences between them and the originals is day and night.
I have no worries shooting 35K in that rifle although I generally do shoot below that simply because as I stated the 50 grain load is the most accurate for me.

[GEOFF]

Don McDowell,

Heckuva 5 shot group!!! Gets me looking forward to my Shiloh sometime with in the next year!

Geoff

[Don McDowell]

Don McDowell,

Heckuva 5 shot group!!! Gets me looking forward to my Shiloh sometime with in the next year!

Geoff

Thanks Geoff, the load was 68 grs Goex Cartridge,.030 fiber wad Rcbs 82084 bullet cast from 20-1 532 grs sized .459 lubed with Sagebrush alox, Winchester brass and large rifle primers.
Need to do some more messing with variations on that load, twice now using Rem nickle brass , once with cci lr , once with cci large pistol magnum primers, I've managed to put 5 thru what amounts to the same hole at 200

[Don McDowell]

Dave one more thing on your Pedersoli. Those things are notorious for the over sized freebore. So the lighter bullet is probably experiencing quite a bit of blowby before it gets the bore sealed up, and that's could account for the velocity descrepency.
I'ld advise going in to that bore prepared to do some lead mining, because if you continue to shoot those proof load levels, the more lead that builds in the throat and leed the higher the pressures are going.
Keep an eye on that breechblock, and headspace.