Cowboy rifles

[Wabash]

Have a question. I am looking for another rifle for cowboy shooting.
Having a hard time. I can find Rossi 92 clone and an Italian
clone. These are new. Cannot find a Marlin 94. I have
people telling me I don't want a 92.. I know Jim Taylor
has both 92s and Marlin and likes both of them. Any help?

Wabash

[Lefty Dude]

Have a question. I am looking for another rifle for cowboy shooting.
Having a hard time. I can find Rossi 92 clone and an Italian
clone. These are new. Cannot find a Marlin 94. I have
people telling me I don't want a 92.. I know Jim Taylor
has both 92s and Marlin and likes both of them. Any help?

Wabash

If money is no object, a Uberti 66 or 73 in your choice of calibers.

For an entry level Rifle, a Marlin 94 or Rossi 92.

Just remember as your skill level increases in speed and you are shooting stages, 10 Revolver, 10 Rifle & 4 + Shotgun in the order of the high 20's and low 30 second range you will be at the high point level of the Marlin 94 or the Rossi 92. At this point you will actually be faster in your cycling & feeding action than the Rifle will be able to deliver. As we say you will be over-guning the piece.
At the above level you will be in the market for a 66 or a 73. Not many CAS shooters can over-run a 66-73 action.
Some of the National & World Champions can deliver a 10 shot sweep on five targets at a double-tap per target in less than 3 seconds with a competition 73.
There are photos of one top shooter with 10 empty cartridges above his head & hat. He did this when he was 16 years old.
A few top shooters are using Marlin's however they are hybrids on the inside of the piece. And the owners have spent several thousand dollars on a race Rifle.
I know of no top shooter's using 92's at this time. Ten years ago the 92 was the CAS/SASS Rifle of choice.
Stages were shot slower in those days.
Now the National/World Champions are shooting stages in the mid-teens, for a 10-10-4 stage.

[Griff]

Wabash,
1st of all, welcome to The Forum! As for a cowboy rifle... I'm assuming by the way you phrased your question you're looking for a cowboy ACTION shooting main match rifle.

There ARE some issues with any of the leverguns that require the cartridge to transistion from horizontal to angled and back to horizontal. Being that all Leverguns (of the general type deemed acceptable for cowboy action shooting) are cartridge overall length sensitive (some more than others); and are sensitive to the nose profile of the bullet being fed thru the action; there ARE some differences in how well they handle the feeding and gurgitating chores... that'd be chambering and ejecting to those challenged in the non-typical use of English!

Some months back I wrote, what I think the definitive comparison of the suitability of leverguns currently on the market and chambered in a pistol caliber. The link Deciding on 1st Leveraction Rifle, and the pertinent text:

In almost no particular order of preference (you'll be able to figure out mine from the fact that I own 3 Rossi, a Uberti '73 and 30 Winchester 94s - though all of those are in .30-30). (EDIT: Since added a Uberti 1860 Henry in .45 Colt)

The Winchester 1894/94 was first introduced in 1894 in .32-40 and .38-55, and heralded the ubiquitious .30WCF (.30-30) of deer hunting fame. It's a wonderful rifle and cartridge combination, suitable for many activities... as would be expected of a sporting rifle that's sold nearly 7 million copies over its 112 production run. (Continuous if you discount the war stoppages). It was first introduced in a pistol length cartridge in 1969 in the .44 Remington Magnum. However, bullet shapes of the time limited its viability (IMO) and it was shelved for a time. In 1983 it underwent its first redesign (of major significance - again discounting some internal changes and material changes), being re-tooled into the Angle Eject model (Winchester 94AE). 1985 saw its chambering in .45 Colt, the FIRST levergun so chambered. IMO, it has some drawbacks in the shorter cartridge lengths; 1st, its overall length, due in part to the length necessary to cycle cartridges in the .30-30 class. 2nd, its action - the fact that its "guts" fall out every time you cycle the lever; this isn't a problem for the hunter nor target shooter, but... when speed is the essence, it provides for a "3-step" feel to the action; it can be reduced by lightening the springs and smoothing the action, but... in truth, the validity of my statement can be found in the fact that no top shooters use this model in competition, (that I'm aware of...). 3rdly, and it shares this feature with the Rossi, Marlin and "Big Boy"; the cartridge is removed from the magazine onto a lifter that then raises up on an angle and is then shoved into the chamber by the bolt and must transistion that angular attitude back to the horizontal. This limits the selection of bullet shapes to allow smooth, consistent and reliable feeding.

The Marlin 1894 is basically unchanged from its introduction; with the addition of a cross bolt safety. It is currently the ONLY US produced historically accurate levergun. Check out their website for current chamberings and versions (rifle/carbine & barrel lengths). This is one of two low cost selections you have. Their quality has been spotty, but... from everything I've heard, and direct assurances from their CEO, if you have a problem, return and they WILL MAKE IT RIGHT. And, I've seen cases where they've done just that.

The Rossi '92 is marketed in this country by a couple of companies, most notably: LSI sells the "PUMA" while EMF sells the "HARTFORD". This is the other low-cost option, and in my opinion (shared by some others) the stronger action that is factory chambered in a couple of pretty hefty rounds, the 454 Casull being one. However, the actions as shipped are fairly heavy, gritty and require some "cleanin' up" to smooth 'em out and make them as sweet as any vintage Winchester 1892 you will find. A couple of guys specialize in this work, and at least one ( Steve's Gunz) will take your order, do the necessary action work and ship you a completely "race ready" gun for not much more than the basic gun would cost you at any other shop. And, if you're rather handy with screwdriver, file, stones and can follow instructions, you can do similar work yourself and save a few sheckles more. Check out Rifle Tuning. This site also includes tuning tips for the Marlin and Winchester 94 rifles.

As mentioned before, the Uberti Henry, '66 "Yellow Boy", and 1873 Winchester clones are probably the most popular rifles in cowboy action shooting as they have the smoothest actions, are very friendly to short stroke kits (as defined legal in SASS rules) and feeding is straight forward so a variety of bullet sizes and weights are easily fed and digested. However, a "race-ready" version will set you back more than what an original will cost. But... you will have a historically accurate and very viable rifle for either re-enacting or cowboy action shooting. (B-westerns aside, VERY few Winchester '92s ever saw action during the War of Northern Agression!)

You will note that I've saved the only other option for last... as is appropriate in my opinion, for it would be my last choice for either re-enacting (I don't like getting laughed at), cowboy action shooting (speed is a factor, and heavy cumbersome actions are not conducive to this activity) or for hunting (it's action strength is an unknown - at least to me). The Henry "Big Boy" is available in .357, .45 Colt and .44 Magnum, but... it is a front-end loader, ala 9422 Winchester and Marlin 39A models. IMO, this is an issue with loading safety and handling around crowded loading tables. Others will point out its ability to unload thru the magazine tube and not having to work each round thru the chamber to unload... well, I prefer to unload mine thru the action... pulling the trigger to expend those expensive shells I spent hours developing and loading!

But, hey! Those are just my observations and opinions developed over a little more than 20 years of cowboy action shooting and 36 years of levergun shooting. And, we all know what they're like... worth exactly what you paid for 'em.

Again, the Winchester '92 in it's present form be it either Winchester (Browning/FN) and Rossi, is, IMO, less than ideal for cowboy action shooting. However, and this is a biggie... in the hands of a skilled and talented operator, utilizing a lot of practice, with an action and ammo tuned to provide reliable performance, the '92 user doesn't necessarily find themselves at a disadvantage. I don't know anyone that is performing at the very top levels of this game that's using a '92... doesn't mean there isn't, I just don't know of it. The Marlin 1894 and the various toggle link actions (mostly the '73), have their proponents... and with good cause. It's just my opinion that in their un-tuned versions; the Marlin is only slightly ahead of the Winchester 92 in this game, and generally less reliable than a toggle link. As with anything, you can receive a lemon... from any of them. So, in order of my preference, from a strictly performance standpoint... I give the nod to the Uberti '73, Uberti '66, the Marlin 1894 and lastly the Rossi '92. An untuned Marlin MIGHT give a slightly better speed than a toggle link, but... I feel they are more prone to feeding issues in their untuned form. I'm hesitant to say whether a tuned Marlin or a tuned Rossi is better... however, the Rossi has no provision (at least that I'm aware of) to shorten the stroke necessary to cycle the action. But, again, IMO, they both fall short of a tuned and short-stroked Uberti '73 or '66. While the 1860 Henry is basically the same action as the '66, that magazine follower can be a real pip to get accustomed to.

My general and unwavering advice is that the new shooter go out to a few matches... observe, ask questions, be open-mined... let me tell you, these cantankerous, opinionated, wannabe cowboys are generally more than willing to share their opinions and are usually willing to let someone handle and sometimes shoot their pride 'n joy! That will tell YOU far more about how each model works for YOU than all the rhetoric and mindless jabberin' on ANY forum. So if you ignore any of the above... PLEASE follow this last bit... it can and WILL save you $s.

[adirondakjack]

As above, a 66 or 73, OR a marlin (look around, use the web). The marlin CANNOT be outrun IF a top hand sends it off to be "race readied" by the best in the business. A Marlin holds the world record right now, AAMOF.

[Lefty Dude]

As above, a 66 or 73, OR a marlin (look around, use the web). The marlin CANNOT be outrun IF a top hand sends it off to be "race readied" by the best in the business. A Marlin holds the world record right now, AAMOF.

I knew my reply would get A.J. off the couch.

That is not a standard Marlin A.J., I saw Duece shoot here in Phoenix this past Month. There is few Marlin parts internal. That piece is beefed-up because Deuce tears up guns rather quickly. A Uberti 73 would only stay together a few Months before it was trashed.

You may start out shooting our Sport with a Marlin, but sooner or later the shooter will own a 73. Thats If he wants to be competitive and be in the top third of his class.

[Wabash]

Thanks fellers. Looks to me like it is the same as ever.

Buy what you want.

I ain't ever gonna be in the top. I don't shoot that much, besides
my old legs would not stand it if I did.

What I would like to do is have a clean match and be off the bottom.

My Marlin is very length sensitive. Also is 32/20. Was just
looking to ease my reloading a bit.

thanks again. This looks like a good forum.

Wabash

[Fairshake]

Wabash, You have heard all the reasons for not buying a Rossi 92, now let me give you some reasons for buying it. If you are going to shoot CAS for the belt buckle and be a "GAMER" with the mouse fanny burp loads then by all means buy the guns that were recommended. If you want a strong rifle that can do other things, like hunting with big loads or shoot for years without a problem then buy the 92. I have three of them and love them all. I shoot Frontier Cartridge class and smile when those full cases of BP go off. That's the way the real cowboys did it. Steve Young can put you a 92 together that will run with the best of them. If you are handy with some basic tools, he also has a DVD for $29.95 that shows you how to do it. His completed rifle sells for half of a full race 73. This is just my opinion and we all know about that but I can't understand why every hand gun sport ends up in the hands of the people who want to win at all cost and don't care about the sport as it was intended. CAS does not have to be shot as a gamer to enjoy the dress up, the camaraderie, the chance to shoot old guns, the outdoors, the reloading, the casting of your own bullets and the list goes on. I see Gamers at every match putting so much stress on themselves that they forgot how to have pure fun while shooting. Work and paying bills are stressful enough in these times without including our recreation time. I will now step down off the box. Later David

[adirondakjack]

As above, a 66 or 73, OR a marlin (look around, use the web). The marlin CANNOT be outrun IF a top hand sends it off to be "race readied" by the best in the business. A Marlin holds the world record right now, AAMOF.

I knew my reply would get A.J. off the couch.

That is not a standard Marlin A.J., I saw Duece shoot here in Phoenix this past Month. There is few Marlin parts internal. That piece is beefed-up because Deuce tears up guns rather quickly. A Uberti 73 would only stay together a few Months before it was trashed.

You may start out shooting our Sport with a Marlin, but sooner or later the shooter will own a 73. Thats If he wants to be competitive and be in the top third of his class.

Nobody who shoots FAST shoots a stock rifle. There are exactly two parts in Deuce's rifle (aside from some springs) that didn't grow there, the carrier and the firing pin. I know, I have two of those rifles, and it was a rifle just like mine that inspired Deuce to make the switch from a toggle link to a Marlin. FWIW he has not hurt that Marlin yet (according to the guy who is his gun wrench)

[JustaJeepGuy]

The "gamers" are going to ruin CAS too, just like all other shooting contests. It seems to have taken just a bit longer, is all.

[Griff]

JustaJeepGuy,

I disagree and for the folowing primary reason: From my 1st day in CAS I heard the following adage: "If you don't shoot good, look good!" There have been gamers, mouse phart loads and modified guns since I started in 1985. The beauty of CAS that some fail to recognize is that is the perfect formula to enhance its' growth. Many fellars play this game because their wives play also. Reduced loads and costuming scream for femimine participation.

While my wife wouldn't have stopped me from playing, she wouldn't have had me buy her own guns, modify them, encouraged me in buying my son's guns, buying backups for just about everything; help with load development and on and on, if she couldn't have shot that 7/8 oz 20ga and the 3.2grains of PB in her .38Specials with 125gr boolits.

The boom'n'clangers have great audience appeal.. but it's the pffft-tinkers that put the COMPETITION in Cowboy Action Shooting. Let me put it this way, even within my category I competing against guys with modified guns, plus those Ruger Old Armies, guys that practice 2-3-4-5 times a week b4 a big match. Do I stand a chance? Do I care? Sometimes I shoot in a cartridge dominated category or a smokeless category, just 'cause!

This a rhetorical quuestion: Should the Olympic swimming events be moved from an indoor pool to the open ocean because a few purists percieve that's the way "it should be"?

[awp101]

This a rhetorical quuestion: Should the Olympic swimming events be moved from an indoor pool to the open ocean because a few purists percieve that's the way "it should be"?

Probably not but I bet it'd be a lot more interesting...

[Griff]

This a rhetorical quuestion: Should the Olympic swimming events be moved from an indoor pool to the open ocean because a few purists percieve that's the way "it should be"?

Probably not but I bet it'd be a lot more interesting...

Now you know the origin of the phrase, "say ol' chum"!

[awp101]

This a rhetorical quuestion: Should the Olympic swimming events be moved from an indoor pool to the open ocean because a few purists percieve that's the way "it should be"?

Probably not but I bet it'd be a lot more interesting...

Now you know the origin of the phrase, "say ol' chum"!

[Lastmohecken]

I have worked construction for more years then I want to count, and we do some pretty difficult stuff at times, and we are probably the best at a lot of what we do in my neck of the woods.

Sometimes we will hear someone complain about the difficulty of a particular project. When we hear that we have a saying "If it was easy we would have women and children doing it"

I recond that is why they don't require full power loads in Cowboy action shooting.

[JustaJeepGuy]

JustaJeepGuy,

I disagree and for the following primary reason...

Griff, I hope you're right. It just seems that with people spending huge money on trick gadgets to get their times down that next hundredth of a second less, it won't matter how authentic they look because they won't be able to beat that guy who spends twice as much on more trickery. Then they'll get tired of the game, because it will become boring. The best thing keeping the game alive is that the courses are always changing, which keeps the element of novelty in it.

Maybe the way to stop the gadgeteers is to make them use "pooled" guns--a group of guns that everyone has to compete with, that are as close to the same as possible. Kinda like the IROC race cars...

[TX Gun Runner]

Here's my 2 cents ....... I have a 92 Rossi in 44-40 which run almost as smooth as a 66 or 73 , but it is harder to clean and work on then 66 , 73 or Marlin 94 . I have all the trick goodie in my 32-20 Marlin , but the 92 is still my favorite and the 66 and 73 are heavier and don't handle like my 92 and they break easier .

[Griff]

JustaJeepGuy,
I disagree and for the following primary reason...

Griff, I hope you're right. It just seems that with people spending huge money on trick gadgets to get their times down that next hundredth of a second less, it won't matter how authentic they look because they won't be able to beat that guy who spends twice as much on more trickery. Then they'll get tired of the game, because it will become boring. The best thing keeping the game alive is that the courses are always changing, which keeps the element of novelty in it.
Maybe the way to stop the gadgeteers is to make them use "pooled" guns--a group of guns that everyone has to compete with, that are as close to the same as possible. Kinda like the IROC race cars...

Making the playing field "even" is sorta what killed the IROC series. Without a avenue for innovation, there's very little incentive for the competitive nature in all of us to escape. The "trick guns" issue is, in fact, a red herring. Trick guns have not enabled anyone to WIN. They have increased the reliability of some inherently unreliable guns when used in the manner of CAS. Since there's a clock running, speed is a factor. And these guns weren't really made for running as fast as we're capable of running them. The SAs simply break down when rotated faster than an auto can run. The "tricks" make for more reliable guns. And whether one uses factory loads or mouse phart loads, reliability is a good thing. As far a costs to modify guns, the top guns are spending far more in practice ammo than they could EVER spend on a modified gun.

The champions in CAS are just like champions in other sports... taking a little native talent, learning and fine-honing a skill set, then practicing that skill set till it's more than just a second nature. Totally stock guns, or internally slicked up, tricked out guns... those that practice their skill set the best are going to win. The rest of us just have to face that. My guns are slicked up and tricked out... but I'll never win because I don't devote thousands of hours to practicing and honing that skill-set. Simple as that. Anyone complaining about the tricked out guns or light loads is deluding themselves. It's still only a shooting match masquerading as a costume contest... or is the the other way around?

[HATCHETTJACK]

i think cass should make the 45-70 the only caliber, and you must use full house loads

[Wabash]

Well it looks like I opened a can of worms........

Let's see what this question does.

Will a 73 feed semi wad cutters? I am pretty sure a 92 won't.
I think a 73 lifts a cartridge straight up without tilting.
I think a 92 tilts the cartridge as the carrier rises.
A semi wad cutter would make a harder hitting game bullet than
a round nose.
I would try it in my Marlin 32/20 but don't have semi wad cutter
mold. Bet it would not feed tho.

Sure would make a good rabbit gun.

[Bear 45/70]

i think cass should make the 45-70 the only caliber, and you must use full house loads

Full house "Trapdoor" loads are pretty whimpy.

[J Miller]

Well it looks like I opened a can of worms........

Let's see what this question does.

Will a 73 feed semi wad cutters? I am pretty sure a 92 won't.
I think a 73 lifts a cartridge straight up without tilting.
I think a 92 tilts the cartridge as the carrier rises.
A semi wad cutter would make a harder hitting game bullet than
a round nose.
I would try it in my Marlin 32/20 but don't have semi wad cutter
mold. Bet it would not feed tho.

Sure would make a good rabbit gun.

I don't know about a 73, but a 92 WILL feed SWC's. Mine did. It had a little action help, but it would feed any bullet shape I came up with.

Marlins are fickle. My 1894 in .357 would feed some SWC's and not feed others. I think it depended on the phase of the moon what that gun would feed.
On the other hand my 1894 Cowboy in .45 Colt is like my Win 94AE and my Rossi, it will feed anything, anytime. Go figure.

Joe

[Chuck 100 yd]

Joe , I had the same question in mind so I shortened 15 of my cases by .080 so I could load 250 gr Lyman Kieth style bullets and stay under maximum cartridge length. and crimp in the crimp groove. They catch on the chamber mouth almost every time and require the gun to be tilted muzzle down so they will drop into the chamber.
I loaded them with cowboy level loads and will shoot them in my Uberti 73 next time I go to the range.
I kinda wanted to see how they group compared to the normal cowboy loads (200/250 gr RNFP type bullets normally used for CAS. ) . We will see??

[Lefty Dude]

I shoot 240gr. SWC's in my Rossi 92/44. They cycle & function very well. They are also the most accurate load I have for the 92/44.

I use them for the CAS side matches, usually two targets 10 yards apart and a distance of 75-90 yds. Alternating between the two targets, shooting off-hand standing I usually get 8-10 hits out of 10 shots. And my time is in the 26-30 second range. The size of the steel targets are 12" wide X 16" high.

Cartridge OAL is 1.625" with 44mag cases, SWC's feed best on the long side. If they are to short they hang-up.

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

Well it looks like I opened a can of worms........

Let's see what this question does.

Will a 73 feed semi wad cutters? I am pretty sure a 92 won't.
I think a 73 lifts a cartridge straight up without tilting.
I think a 92 tilts the cartridge as the carrier rises.
A semi wad cutter would make a harder hitting game bullet than
a round nose.
I would try it in my Marlin 32/20 but don't have semi wad cutter
mold. Bet it would not feed tho.

Sure would make a good rabbit gun.

The 92 will usually feed SWC better than the 73 or 66. This is because there is usually enough room in the 73/66 elevator to allow the cart to move from side to side enough that the cutter ledge of the SWC can catch on the chamber mouth. The 92 will more readily feeds them because the bullet comes up at such a good angle and is trapped in the cart guides so it doesn't have any side to side movement until the bullet is already inside the chamber mouth. The marlin is more like the 66/73 in that the cart goes almost straight in but can wobble sideways a bit. Chamfering the chamber mouths helps all of them.

About SASS, it's not really a gun competition. More like a costume party with guns. Here is something I wrote for the SASS wire on this subject.

First off, working on these guns is what I do, all I do. So I get to talk to the people that play this game all day long almost 24/7. Been doing this for the last 20 years. So i have talked to a lot of folks all over the world now about this game.

At least 80% of the 70 something thousand SASS members have never competed in any kind of gun game before. Many have never even owned a handgun before.

If you go to just about any monthly match you will find the majority of the folks that shoot there have never gone to any shoot above a state level and don't ever plan to. At our local shoot more than a third of our shooters are women folk. You talk to any of them and they will tell you if it wasn't for the dress-up and the easy shooting they wouldn't be there, and you know what, neither would their Hubby's. At least most wouldn't get to shoot. Whatcha thinks gonna happen if we go to big guns and little target. Them lady folks and there hubby's won't be back.

Bottom line is SASS aint about highly competitive testosterone drive extreme gun handling skills.
SASS is structured so everybody can come play, shoot any style you want. Big guns, little guns, smokin gun, non smokin guns, one hand two hands, two guns, real old folks to real young kids and it needs to stay like that because that is why it's the fastest growing gun game ever.

[tman]

WELL SAID,NATE

[Wabash]

You nailed it Nate.
The more you fellers talke the more I am leaning to a 92.
I appreciate all the good advise.

I am not new to firearms, but am not new but inexperenced
in CAS. Been around a while but unable to attend all the
shoots I would like.

Nothing wrong with what I am shooting except it is different
from my revolvers. It is a 32/20 and I shoot 38's in my Blackhawks.
Using what I have before I got into the game.
good nite.