Winchester 38-55 Keyholing

[rusty gunns]

Just got my hands on a gorgeous Winchester "Chief Crazy Horse" in 38-55 made in the 80's. It seemed unfired.

A friend of mine has a Marlin in the same caliber. He said it loved 7.5 gr of Trail Boss under a 240 gr bullet.

I got my hands on a box of .379 270 grain rnfp locally, so I loaded up a few with that same 7.5 gr of Trail Boss which, according to Layman 49, should push out at about 1000fps, and 23 gr of 5744 which should yield about 1500 fps.

Went to the range today for the first time. Too few hits at 50 yards. That concerned me so I rolled the target back to 35 yards.

The Trail Boss loads key holed all over the place at 35 yards and The 5744 was so poor that there was absolutely NO grouping what so ever. 1 hit on a standard 50 ft pistol target. My 44-40 gives me 2 1/2" groups on the same target at 50 yards.

I came home (crying) and cleaned then slugged the barrel. There was noticeable leading just at the begining of the barrel. The rest seemed fine right to the muzzle. All after about 20 rounds.

SAAMI for the gun is .379. Winchester stated they bore to SAAMI diameters.

The bore slugged out to about .377 at the lands and 374 at the groves.

What am I doing wrong?

Could the difference between .379 and .377 make such a difference?
Should I try .376 slugs? Or a different manufacturer's .379.

Daddy always said "A load is a load".
Maybe he was talking about something else.

[Griff]

Maybe nothing. .002" over groove diameter is a good rule of thumb for cast. Bullet diameter, weight, hardness, lube, rifling twist and velocity all must interact to provide stability and accuracy. Not to mention powder, case & primer. Vary any ONE and the equation may no longer work. Now that you've found a found a formula that DOESN'T work, only vary one thing at a time.

In my early reloading days I only attempted to get improved accuracy over what was available with factory ammo. Therefor, I HAD to know what my rifle was capable of w/factory fodder.

Most reloading manuals will indicate what load was most accurate in their testing. That's a huge hint, IMO, as to where I'd start looking for an accurate load.

You ARE doing this off a bench, right?

[Hobie]

Every once in a while one runs into a gun that just won't do with a particular bullet. Switch to the Lyman 375249 and see how that does. Oh, IME, .002" over groove dia should not be the problem, likely it is bullet weight/length vs. twist rate. I bet Win used the same twist rate as with the .375s...

[Blaine]

The TrailBoss seems to be better....Those velocities seem a bit low.....increase 1/2 grain at a time and see if it gets better.....

[ByronG]

A buddy has a Crazy Horse and its a tack driver with factory fodder. Might be the way to go for starters .

[rusty gunns]

A lot of good ideas here. Thanks, my friends.

I went there with such high expectations, and I have to say the experience was truly awful. I had 4 targets on a piece of cardboard 18 X 25 inches. The key holes, though aimed at the upper left target, were all over the cardboard. At lease 7 rounds missed the whole thing all together at 35 yards. I could have thrown the brass at the target and gotten more hits.

I think I will find some factory ammo and try that first.
That should tell me if there is a problem with the gun, which is probably not the case.

Also, I have some 240 grain .379's. That's the common cowboy slug, I believe, I will try them as well.

All other ideas are welcome.

[morgan in nm]

My dad has a cheif crazy horse and when I was developing a good load for it, I found that factory didn't pattern at all. No keyholing but it sprayed. I wound up ordering a bunch of Magnus(I think) that is .379 and around 249grn that performs very well out of it. Still, I was having problems with it leading so I bought some Rooster HV red lube and I already had a .379 sizer so I relubed them and that took care of the leading. A friend of mine let me borrow his older lyman manual and it suggested trying 9.9grns of Unique which really made a difference. With that load, it shoots an average of 1 3/4" at 100yds from a bench. With factory, it was grouping so large that I couldn't even call it a group.

Hope this helps and good luck with your rifle. When you narrow it down, I am sure you will love it. My dad didn't like the tacks in his so he pulled them out, as well as the disk in the stock and put a silver dollar in its place. He also had me build a leather hunting charm that I threaded into the hole in the nose cap. One of these days, I will borrow it and post some pictures.

[kimwcook]

Keyholing at 35 yds sounds to me like incompatability with the bullet weight/twist rate and velocity.

There's some good ideas to try already stated. I have a Legendary Frontiersmen in 38-55 that I shameably haven't even shot yet. Gotta get around to fixing that.

[Bear 45/70]

Keyholing means the bullet is not stablizing, either due to the bullet not fitting the bore properly or the twist rate wrong for the bullet weight or velocity or both.

[Little Doc]

rusty,
just some rambling here. maybe some of it will be of help. i bought a cch in the 1980's. a friend did also. we bought a rcbs mould can't remember the weight but 265 comes to mind. this was a gascheck bullet. bought a 375 sizer die and loaded some rounds. first five rounds were ok but after that we had the keyhole you talk about only we were shooting 25 yards. i slugged my bbl and found the bore was .380. so back to rcbs for a mould of the same design that cast a bullet at .382. cast some up and sized to .381. this shot real well but could not hardly get the lever closed. so ordered a .380 sizer. this gave good accuracy and function. i do not recall the powder i used but 3031 is likely as it was what i used mostly then. i used data from lyman manuel most likely. this rifle has never shot to the satisfaction i thought it should. i would say try a larger boolet and speed it up a little.. re slug your bbl just to check and slug it at both ends. all factory loads i have seen are really slow. this is an excellent cartridge and should serve you well. good luck on finding the right combo.
ld

[20cows]

I use a very similar bullet, but with a gas check. Are the bullets cast with a good flat base? If there is irregularity there, it could allow gas to blow by and destabilize the bullet and cause leading.

[rusty gunns]

Went to the range today.

Loaded several weight bullets (ten each), 249 .379 rnfp, those 276 .379 rnfp from the other day, and some 240 rnfp gc at .378. All with 22 grains & 24 grains of 5744 as per Lyman 49.

Inspecting the rounds that gave me trouble last week, I opted to re-crimp them on my single stage press.

As a base line, I re-crimped a few of the Trail Bos 7.5 grain bullets. Only one keyholed, so I think a poor crimp was most of the problem. A bit more juice will bring them around.

A better crimp brought my group down to about 3" at 25 yards. Not great, but now I'm on the paper. The gun seemed to like the 249 gr bullets best.

Just when things were getting reasonable, an accidental double load of 5744 put an end to the day. My 94 is locked up tight. I think I F***ed it up good.

What has me upset most of all was that I didn't use my powder cop die.

[kimwcook]

Just when things were getting reasonable, an accidental double load of 5744 put an end to the day. My 94 is locked up tight. I think I F***ed it up good.

Uh-oh!

[Chuck 100 yd]

BUMMER !!

[2ndovc]

At least you're not picking a bolt out of your forehead.

There was a fellow that worked for Navy Arms that was
shooting a Remington-Lee and popped off an overcharged
round that took part of his face off. He didn't survive.

Be very happy that the 94 is a stong action!

jb

[Little Doc]

you may now have a jugged chamber. i have seen that in a 30-30 before many years ago. disassemble the gun and drive the case out with a brass rod. (you will have to releave the extractor from the case to move the bolt) if you are not comfortable with the disassembly take it to a smith and ask that the case be removed. a chamber cast will tell you if the chamber is jugged. you will ;not be able to see it. if it is not damaged you will be lucky more than once. good luck.
ld.

[Hobie]

Not to rub it in (very glad you're ok) but there's a reason to do all one can to avoid double charges including using powders that can't fit two charges in the case.

[Leverdude]

Well, that simply sucks. I load alot of the old black powder calibers with charges less than 50% full. Its dangerous but 2400 works real god for me. Not sure what a powder cop die is but I drop a charge & seat a bullet immediately most times. A quick peek inside before setting the bullet on top & thats that, if I get disturbed I dump the powder back into the hopper before attending to whatevers interrupting me.

As far as the accuracy, since it sounds like your bullet is fat enough & your velocities are reasonable I think I'd look at the crown. My 38/55 has a big .381+ bore but starts leading very bad well before keyholing.
I can use .380's without keyholeing but can get enough lead out after 20 rounds to cast a bullet. Well, not really but theres alot of lead in it.

Hope it works out that your gun isn't damaged beyond fixing.

[Tycer]

Good luck with it!!!!!

[rusty gunns]

Not to rub it in (very glad you're ok) but there's a reason to do all one can to avoid double charges including using powders that can't fit two charges in the case.

Hobie,

No one could agree with you more. In 40 years of reloading I have had 3 squibs and this, my first double load. I don't take it as a dig at all. Lets face it, other than the possible loss of a darlin of a gun, this is a "free ride". No one was injured.

I had been on the phone with Hornady Friday asking about a priming issue with my progressive AP press. I mentioned how frustrating station 5 was. How if you used another manufacturer's crimp die in that station it distorted the wire guide that slides the finished round free of the shell plate. He advised that when using another manufacturer's die, the crimping die should be in station 4 to prevent this.

Hornady doesn't make a 38-55 die, so it meant loosing the powder cop die from station 4. Now in all honesty, its like someone telling you to jump off a bridge. The decision was mine.

I took great care in loading but ignored one of the golden rules. Eliminate distractions. These rules are here for a reason. There's no such thing as "A little pregnant".

My powder is 5744 and a true double load will not fit in the case. But I must have lowered the handle raising the primed case under the powder die, dropping the powder. Then recycled it again half way or there abouts for some reason. Not enough to cycle the shell plate but enough to tip a bit more powder into the case, just not a full measure. Better visual inspection would have caught this.

The recoil was such that I'm hopeful there is little or no major damage. But at this point, what ever it is ... it is.

Its a lesson sorely learned and it will never happen again.

As an old friend once told me:

"We learn through experience. Provided, of course, we survive the experience"

This was one of those moments.