Two Old Pards Ride Again (photos)

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:00 pm

Today, I took my original Springfield 1888 .45-70 rifle made in 1891 and my newly acquired (as of today) Winchester Model 1876 .45-60 made in 1884 to the range to see what these old pards could do. Here's a photo of the two vintage rifles, with the Springfield up top and the '76 down below …

First up was the 125 year-old Winchester '76. My order of .45-60 brass from Rocky Mountain Cartridge has not arrived yet, so all I had was 5 cartridges using original .45-60 brass, loaded with 26.2 grains of 5744 under a 327 grain cast GC bullet. I decided to use all 5 cartridges for a 100 yard, 5-shot group. I rested the forearm stock across my shooting bag and took 5 slow shots, sighting through the notch of the original iron ladder sight. When I saw the results, I was pleased ….. a 100 yard, 5-shot group of only 1 & ¾"! Here's a photo of the target, with an original .45-60 black powder cartridge that must be about 100 years old ….

Next up was the 118 year-old Springfield 1888 .45-70 rifle. My friend and I took turns shooting it and adjusting the sights then I figured it was time to try a 5-shot group at 100 yards. You may recall that I posted a range report last week where I tried a 3-shot group at 100 yards and got an 11/16" group. The big question in my mind was whether this was a fluke, or could the old girl do it again. I was using a 500 grain SAECO plain base bullet over 30 grains of IMR 3031 topped off with ¼ rounded teaspoon of cream of wheat for filler. I took 5 careful shots through that beautiful Buffington sight and then strolled down to the 100 yard butts to take a look. By gum! The five shots formed a 1 & 1/16" group! Now I'm reading to fine tune my sights adjustment. Here's a photo of the target with one of my 500 grain rounds for comparison ….

Boys, these old pards demonstrated loud and clear that they ain't done ridin' yet. They can still hold their own against all those young tenderfoot modern leverguns. One of these old-timers is going to put some Whitetail venison in the freezer this coming fall.

win92 · Post by **win92** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:07 pm

very nice Kirk!!
looks like you got a handle on the bullet casting. Nice to see a couple of old timers still able!

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:09 pm

Thanks Kirk

I can only imagine the smile factor getting out with those friends.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:11 pm

No wonder there ain't many buffler left.

Nice shootin!

winchester1886 · Post by **winchester1886** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:22 pm

With that kind of shootin' from you three Old Pards I'de rather be with you then against you, great shootin' Kirk just shows what these ole girls can do when they want to.

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:26 pm

Kirk,
Good shooting! It is almost amazing what the older rifles can still do.

But why would a guy even wonder though. They were made in a time when the ability to hit what you were shooting at could make the difference between life or death.

salvo · Post by **salvo** » Sun May 03, 2009 6:43 pm

Wow, that is some great shooting KirkD! your one heck of a shot.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:02 pm

WOW !! Lookin good.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:05 pm

WOW!!!!

THAT IS AMAZING.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:17 pm

Kirk,
I'm not surprised. I have always been a firm believer that the old rifles give up nothing to the new ones except a higher trajectory. Good shootin'!

Now, that '76 needs to be here in Pa. I have said it before here that an 1876 has always eluded me and yours shoots, so, I want it------NOW!

Good luck and take that '76 on your deer hunt---------------------------Sixgun

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 03, 2009 7:53 pm

Sixgun, I've been missing a .45-60 '76 ever since I traded my old one for an '86. Now that I got another one, it would be might tough to pry this one out of my hands!

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:05 pm

Kirk, those are fine looking rifles.It looks like you just might have a handle on a couple of good loads. I sure do wish I had my trapoor that i traded off many years ago, it was a great shooting 45-70.

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:35 pm

That large "thud" sound was my jaw hitting the floor - twice. First at the picture of those beautiful old girls, and then again seeing what they can still do! "WOW" just doesn't say enough. Congratulation Kirk - looking forward to more reports on that 1876 whne your new brass arrives!

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Sun May 03, 2009 8:51 pm

Holy smokes! That's fantastic. Kirk, if you ever get rid of either of those girls I think you'd need your head examined. Thanks for the pics.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:00 pm

The gun sure proved it can still do the job. I'm only half as old as many of these guns people are shooting, but I sure as heck can't shoot anywhere near an INCH OR SO at 100 yards with open sights. Your shooting is fully as amazing as the gun; you should be proud of that.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:05 pm

AJMD429 wrote:The gun sure proved it can still do the job. I'm only half as old as many of these guns people are shooting, but I sure as heck can't shoot anywhere near an INCH OR SO at 100 yards with open sights. Your shooting is fully as amazing as the gun; you should be proud of that.

Of all the old guns I've owned, these two are my best shooters. I don't know how I can shoot so good with these two. It must be that a fellow just 'clicks' with certain guns. Last weekend, I was sighting in a 7mm Rem. Mag. for a friend, and it had a 9x scope. The groups I got with that were only a bit better than that old Springfield. I'm just amazed what that old .45-70 can do.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:06 pm

Simply fantastic!! thanks for sharing that. Both are beautiful rifles and true shooters.

hondo1892 · Post by **hondo1892** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:26 pm

Great shooting Kirk and I love that 1876. I'm looking to get another mold for my uberti. Did you use an RCBS mold and what kind of alloy are you using for bullets. Hondo1892

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sun May 03, 2009 9:52 pm

hondo1892 wrote:Great shooting Kirk and I love that 1876. I'm looking to get another mold for my uberti. Did you use an RCBS mold and what kind of alloy are you using for bullets. Hondo1892

The cast bullets I am using are left over from my previous '76 I sold about 3 years ago. Another fellow cast them for me and I don't know the mould he used, but I do know they are fairly soft ... around 11 BHN. They also have a gas check. Since then, I've bought my own mould ... a plain base one that drops 300 grain bullets, but I've not cast any bullets with it yet and do not know how they will shoot.

Jaguarundi · Post by **Jaguarundi** » Sun May 03, 2009 10:19 pm

Sweet Rifles and excellent shooting.The cartridge reloading sure didn't hurt none either.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:38 pm

That's wonderful......I'd be lucky to duplicate that group with my scout scoped 1895GS

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun May 03, 2009 11:45 pm

I think Kirk makes the case that the old guns at 100 yds with iron sights cannot really be outdone with the new ones with a scope.

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:18 am

Impressive - informative - great photos as always - and terrific shooting! Thanks, Kirk.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:25 am

Congrats on getting two old guns to shoot so well Kirk

How come you ended up on 26.2grns of powder, seems an odd amount?

Nath.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:09 am

Thanks for the report Kirk, great shooting there

1988rrc · Post by **1988rrc** » Mon May 04, 2009 11:40 am

glad to see your back in the '76 business.
how about some details on the '76?

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:13 pm

1988rrc wrote:how about some details on the '76?

I will be sending away for a Cody letter, but it is a standard configuration '76 with a 28" round barrel in .45-60. According to Madis, its serial number puts in in the middle of 1884. It is an honest gun that has not been messed with. The rear sight is a ladder 1876 sight. It is a well-used gun, but still in good shape and it was obviously taken care of. I'm glad to have it.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon May 04, 2009 12:32 pm

Slow, heavy, accurate... deadly.

Fast, light, miss? Phooey.

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:14 pm

Excellent shooting Kirk!.. Oh to have even my 50 year old eyes back again... The 76 is off the scale...Both for beauty and accuracy..

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 04, 2009 2:57 pm

Ben, I don't shoot that well with my other guns and I think I know why these two shoot real well. First, the rear sight is significantly further away from my eyes, so it is not as blurry. Second, the front sight is also further away, making it sharper.

I sure am glad to have a '76 once again. I didn't know how much I would miss one until after I'd sold the one I used to have. This time, I'm hanging on to it.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:09 pm

KirkD,
To put those groups into perspective,our gun club some of us shoot competion and a few of us go to Camp Perry,OH to shoot at the
National Level.
One of our unwritten rules/requirements our club shooters have
is you need to have your gun with match handloadded ammo on a
bench shoot 1 inch groups with your open sights..To be competitive once you get on the firing line off the bench in all positions you need a gun to group that well so you can do your part from there.
Now lets think about that,were shooting for example NMA custom
rifles and Colt Match Grade rifles fine tuned to the max allowed comp limits,only the best very time consuming handloads etc. and you are hanging right in there with a 100+year old gun.Your groups look like
somthing my Winchester M70 .243 w/3x9 scope shoots(sometimes)
Boy, would that be a hoot to have you show up at one of our events
and say men make room for a gun that is real quality and really shoots.

The guys would freak.
Keep going I want to see how far you can take this?
.5-.75 MOA??????????????? You impress me SIR!!! (Dead eye Kirk) Keep at it.

YOU DA MAN

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:23 pm

Madman, that is very interesting and encouraging. I've only got two bullets left, so I'll have to have a casting session in the next few weeks. Then I want to move to the 200 yard range and see what the old Springfield will do.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Mon May 04, 2009 3:47 pm

Cannot wait to see results.Best of skill.

jd45 · Post by **jd45** » Mon May 04, 2009 5:57 pm

Kirk, as someone else said............that is absolutely AMAZING!!!! Someone had to've cared WELL for the bores on those old charcoal-burners, by Goomya! And I'm sure your handloading contributed as well. Good on ya! jd45

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Mon May 04, 2009 6:56 pm

Absolutely Amazing....Our own Mr. R.T. Hare!!!!

"The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards.
In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

Guess which one Mr. Hare used?

marlinman93 · Post by **marlinman93** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:11 pm

Very nice Kirk! But you're giving me a complex! Even pictures of targets you take look better than my gun pictures! Man you do wonderful photos!-Vall

Ben_Rumson · Post by **Ben_Rumson** » Mon May 04, 2009 7:52 pm

madman4570
I wouldn't be surprised if ole Dead Eye Kirk there will burn one in pretty soon...Dang...He's got 3 in one hole already!... Course there's always the STINKIN flyer!
It's always a treat to see the oldies prove themselves...A couple of years ago I scoped a 36" barrel Remington Rolling Block 50-70 made in 1872-3 to test my handloads for it.. Using indexed cast bullets( which Kirk hasn't stooped to

) and custom length cases (also indexed) and IMR 4350, I shot a 100 yd. 5 shot 1" center to center group..When you subtract the bullet diameter it turns out to be a sub 1/2" group..That was a NY State Militia contract model...Nothing like the fine Winchester barrels...

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:44 pm

jd45 wrote:Kirk, as someone else said............that is absolutely AMAZING!!!! Someone had to've cared WELL for the bores on those old charcoal-burners, by Goomya! And I'm sure your handloading contributed as well. Good on ya! jd45

Funny thing is... Deep rifling and slow velocities coupled with a proper twist means accuracy with even a "marginal" bore by today's standards...

okdee · Post by **okdee** » Mon May 04, 2009 8:48 pm

Thanks for the showing of your beautiful lever-action rifles and the loads that you used!

I just returned this weekend from an outing to the range, and took along (with others, of course! ) my 76, in 45-75 caliber. She too, has a 28" barrel. If you recall I was having some tumbling bullets at about 1411 fps. I changed powder to 5744 and started at 19.2 grains with an average velocity of 994.5 fps and then 22.2 grains with an average velocity of 1132 fps. Both topped off with a 323gr FP lead bullet. Do to a pretty stiff crosswind, about the only good thing was getting the chronograph results.

I do not use gas check bullets or the stuffing you add on top of the powder, so those are interesting options to look into.

Thanks for the challenge!

Cheers,
Oklahoma Dee

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Mon May 04, 2009 9:06 pm

okdee, that was interesting info about your chronograph results for those loads. It is always interesting to hear how different loads do for these old obsolete calibers.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue May 05, 2009 11:52 am

Nath wrote:Congrats on getting two old guns to shoot so well Kirk

How come you ended up on 26.2grns of powder, seems an odd amount?

Nath.

Not sure if caught my Q Kirk so I bumped it up again.

Good shooting Kirk, I won't be pinching from your garden thats for sure!

Nath

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue May 05, 2009 1:42 pm

Nath, I saw your question earlier, but completely forget to respond. My apologies. I was looking through the load development for my first '76 and saw why I had chosen 26.2 grains of 5744. I had been experimenting around and found that in the Rocky Mountain case, 26.2 grains of 5744 gave very close to original black powder velocities. It gives a bit lower in the original balloon head cases, because their volume is slightly greater. All of my shooting will be done with the Rocky Mountain cases when they arrive, so I'll probably be sticking with that load.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:16 pm

That figures, I had it in my head that you had plucked the figure out of a book or somewhere.
It didn't click for me you have been mess'n around these cart's before

Must pay more attention Nath!

You do make it look so easy Kirk, I am struggling to get some 308 Speers 170grn to shoot out a free floated Rem 700 on bl-c2 and you turn up with some real guns from before my gramp's time and blow us out the water! Good man

Nath

Catshooter · Post by **Catshooter** » Tue May 05, 2009 2:37 pm

That is true, soul-filling satisfaction.

Unless you're hunting mice at 100 yards, either rifle will do it's part if you do yours, and obviously you can.

Cat