OT: .38 S&W Special +P Mightier than .357 Mag or .44 Mag

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:20 pm

You can't kill anything within 25-yards with a.44 Magnum or .357 Magnum that you can't kill with a 158gr or 180gr Jacketed SP or HP .38 Special +P. A hard-cast 180gr LFNGC might be a better choice but I don't really think so.

You can argue all you want that that's just no so but you'll just be talking to the wind.

Since I'm making such a bold statement, I'll just relate to everyone that back in 1973 I killed a Black Bear with a 4" Heavy Barrel S&W Model 10 in NE GA aways North of Dahlonega.

Edit: Corrected the year of my adventure from 1974 to 1973.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:25 pm

I'd agree to that with the contition that a perfect shot presents it's self (behind the shoulder, brain shot, etc)......You're not goint to get penetration worth a hoot with a 158gr special load, IMO.

I make that statement about .45acp 230 hardball and 25yds, and think I'm right, too

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri May 15, 2009 5:29 pm

We're talking 25-yards. Not 35/50/75/100-yards. The S&W .38 Special +P is a vicious round within 25-yards.

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:19 pm

AGREED, up close with a hit in the vitals, the game won't know the difference, and, they can't read the headstamp on the cartridge. the .357 s&w took all north american and african game UP CLOSE, 70+ years ago. keep it close and place the bullet where it counts, and it's all you will ever need.

***yep, major Dan Wesson killed an example of every big game animal in north America, including Grizzly and Polar Bear. Admittedly it took two or three tries before Major Wesson was able to anchor a Grizz and a Polar Bear without assistance of his guide's big rifle but he did it. i believe the hunts took place starting in 1934, before the .357 Magnum was released to the public and completed in 2936 or '37. John Taffin made a passing mention of Major Wesson's project in the last issue of American Handgunner.***

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:21 pm

Ed, where did you hit that bear? Surely, not thru the shoulder....head shot?

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:44 pm

Well, if the 38 Spcl is a vicious killer at 25 yards, my .45s must be way beyond that. I think I'll keep the big bullets just because.

Joe

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Fri May 15, 2009 6:46 pm

tman wrote:AGREED, up close with a hit in the vitals, the game won't know the difference, and, they can't read the headstamp on the cartridge. the .357 s&w took all north american and african game UP CLOSE, 70+ years ago. keep it close and place the bullet where it counts, and it's all you will ever need.

Not being argumentative... but all?

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:49 pm

BlaineG wrote:Ed, where did you hit that bear? Surely, not thru the shoulder....head shot?

Shallow angling shot behind the left shoulder. Finisher in the neck.

Coldfingers · Post by **Coldfingers** » Fri May 15, 2009 7:59 pm

"mightier" may not be the word I would use.

"usefuller" if it was a word, would be my description.

I intend to watch this thread. I used a 180gr hardcast from the Marlin on a blackie two years ago. No problem. Shot entered below chin, traversed chest cavity, exited flank. He made a fine dinner guest.

My best,

Scotty

336A · Post by **336A** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:04 pm

For those that place doubt on the lowly .38 SPL then you need to look here http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo%20B ... utter.html

This can be closely duplicated with Unique & a DEWC as per the Speer #12 & #13 manuals. I suspect that a 158gr SWC or RNFP such as the Lyman 358665 would do just as well or slightly better in the penetration department. Modoc ED I fully concur with you that a good cast SWC going 950-1000 FPS from a .38 SPL is nothing to sneeze at. In fact my S&W M10 is my favorite woods bumming sidearm.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:20 pm

I guess your right. I've only shot rocks and steel and maybe a few squirrels with it. Handloaded right, she smokes. In fact, thousands of dead criminals will vouch for the fact that it does a good job.--------Sixgun

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 15, 2009 8:34 pm

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH ???

While I think the .38 S&W Special is a fantastic cartridge.
I dont think I would go that far.For the 44mag
I shoot a load of H110 (25.5grs)out of my Ruger 7.5" Redhawk that
pushes a 300gr Belt Mountain Punch Bullet @ 1504fps
That combo will completely penetrate any North American big game animal and I would be interested on its results for cape buff/elephant brain shot.(Those two might be pushing it) but those
punch bullets with a 300gr weight@1500fps will provide unreal
penetration.I would have no problem using them on almost anything.
86er would have a better idea ,but their penetration is unreal.
But I love the .38 special(I just would not want to shoot a BIG Grizzly
with it.) see ya!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:24 pm

A good quality hardcast .44mag (see Garrett's site) will penetrate a grizz front to hips........Just sayin'..... Yes, a 38spc 158 +P is a vicious little bugger, but it's not better than

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri May 15, 2009 9:33 pm

I know that shooting the elephant/cape buff deal as I stated prior
is really pushing it but I would just be interested,of course with my PH behind me with his .460 weatherby mag.
But in all honesty the Redhawk shoots a Buffalo bore 44+p+ 340gr@1478fps while the 454casull is a 360@1425fps(very close)
I know for a fact the 454 Casull has taken both.see below from guns mag.and I know that 300gr punch bullet will out penetrate the Buffalo bore Bullets..--

(The Raging Bull is a revolver manufactured by the Brazilian Taurus International firearm company.
In its larger calibers, the Raging Bull is a potent weapon with plenty of stopping power. For this reason, it is marketed as a hunter's sidearm. The .454 Casull cartridge has even been used to harvest animals as large as Cape Buffalo and African Elephants.)

You can get lucky and kill a bear with the .38 THIS TIME but next time you might get killed.several years back a lady at work said her
husband wanted to sell his like new S&W 629 44Mag w/Ultradot/5boxes ammo/2 holsters etc. for $425
I said to her you have to be kiddin and went over that day.He told
me two months prior he went bear huntin in Maine and took a shot
at a Big Black Bear,hitting it in the shoulder.he guessed aprox 500lbs.He said it was at 25-30
yds.He said the bear knew he was there and was being somewhat
aggresive.(Clicking teeth/eye contact etc.)his first shot he said the bear instantly went right up his tree towards his treestand.Of course he was shakin and fired another in his chest and the remaining 4 as fast as he could but he didnt know if the other 4 hit anything.
He never found the bear.he was getting anxious just talking about it.He did not want that gun and said the gun dealer would give him $425 and if I wanted it its mine.Heck ya I bought it.I asked what round did you use?He said he wanted somthing kinda fast??180 gr.
I explained I bet if you used a 300-340gr that bear would be a rug.
he said I dont care I cant stand to even look at that gun.
Moral of the story,nothing beats big bullets on big stuff especially
from a handgun at close range!!!

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:08 pm

The 38 Special +P is a whimp compared to the 357 Magnum.

38 Special +P 158 grain bullet Max fps 964 energy 325.7 ft/lbs
357 Magnum 158 grain bullet Max fps 1520 energy 887.1 ft/lbs

Better than twice the energy so, NO, a 38 Special +P is not anywhere as near as good as a 357 magnum.

Scott64A · Post by **Scott64A** » Fri May 15, 2009 11:31 pm

Being a .357mag fan, since my first Ruger BH, and the amazing versatility of this round, I have to disagree, but only on THAT point.

While a .38spl will kill most things inside of 25yds, with a well placed shot, a .357mag has more room to play, even for a novice handloader with a 6.5" revolver.

I can load them to run around 1000FPS, or I can run them HOT, at around 1500-1800 with 158grJHP.
I can load 160gr, or better to run around 1500FPS and that will do for most game here in the US, barring the Grizzly.

I can go get some hard cast 200gr, and have a sledgehammer flying toward anything that draws a breath.

Can't do all that with a 38spl, but what you CAN do with one is kill any man who dares to break in your house and threaten you or your family.

I still love that round, but I REALLY love the .357mag.

There doesn't have to be rhyme or reason for fallingin love with a cartridge, or expousing it's virtues. Making the statement that a 38spl is "better" or even equal to a magnum or 44 load is silly. Apples and oranges.

I recently negotiated a 38spl snubnose for my friend and coworker, because she loves that round and likes to have a snubnose revolver handy. It is funny to me how everyone wants a 40S&W or a .45 auto, even though they have little or no experience with guns, can barely clean them properly, and just go with what the Joneses are doing. That 38spl will outshoot and outkill any 40S&W out there, and can easily handle some punk with a crowbar coming at you.
For home defense, I say the 38spl is the tops.

Verily, I still use light loaded 158gr SLJHPs in my Service Six. They will surely get the job done, too.

the telegraphist · Post by **the telegraphist** » Sat May 16, 2009 5:51 am

Gday all,
It basically does not matter a stuff about ballistics et al, the answer is bullet placement, elephants have been killed with a rimfire 22, not that it would be my pref caliber. Placement is essential. If you can do the deal under pressure you will win every time. One great African hunter whose name escapes me at this time took the heaviest species with a 7mm Mauser.
It would have taken great faith to stand in front of a charging bull elephant coming in at several thousand kilos with a 7X 57
They prevailed. Elephant etc are no stronger now than they were then, nor is man. I am very comfortable with a heavy slug in a 38spl to do what I want it to do with good placement. Maybe we gotta look at training again. Gun control is hitting your target.
Rgds

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:16 am

I love the 38 Special. In some circles it's gotten a bad rap because of the old
LRN police load. With a 158 gr. LSWC or LSWCHP loaded to +p levels, I think it's
a dandy round. (158 gr. JHPs are okay, too.

) Loaded to that level in a
Model 10, it's very controllable and easy to shoot, too. The model 10 is looked
down upon in this day and age, but it's really a terrific platform. The one I have
is an ex-police gun and other than some holster wear is in fine shape. The bore
is perfect, and the trigger is fantastic - both DA and SA.

It's accurate, too. I shot many rounds in competition in an old S&W Model 60.
Great combination.

If it's all I had, I'd shoot the black bear with it before climbing a tree, but
I'd personally prefer something a bit stouter for bruins. (41 Mag comes to mind!)
For social work, I think it's a dandy cartridge if loaded as noted above.

-Stretch

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:27 am

Bear 45/70 wrote:The 38 Special +P is a whimp compared to the 357 Magnum.

38 Special +P 158 grain bullet Max fps 964 energy 325.7 ft/lbs
357 Magnum 158 grain bullet Max fps 1520 energy 887.1 ft/lbs

Better than twice the energy so, NO, a 38 Special +P is not anywhere as near as good as a 357 magnum.

Not so sure about that.

357 MAGNUM AND THE LITERATURE.

PACO

200 grain RN cast in 38 special+p cases 16/296 just over 1870 fps (52,000psi) for my strong 92s only... they are cast hard, left for 24 hours, then lubed .358 and then placed in a pan of water up to the leading edge and then the noses are de-tempered with a butain torch... it allows the nose to be soft and expand and the body to stay hard and resist fouling.... I use small rifle primers usually Federal.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:51 am

Telegraphist,?????????

Man,
Come on now! some of you guys now are saying bullet placement is everything and ballistics is nothing??

Put down whatever your smoking and get real. Anyone can do a STUPID STUNT.(anyone can die )
Tell me what bullet placement are you going to do which that punny
.38 at a 12000 lb enraged african elephant.You will reach his brain with about as much chance as you walking on Pluto.And in 10 seconds Wow! Or when that 600 lb charging african Lion comes out of the bush at 50 ft wanting to kill you what kind of composure/and just thinking hey my .38 will stop him no problem.I normally respect all opinions but if you really think this truefully I am worried for you thinking this way.Maybe you should not own a gun??
Also there is a HUGE difference between a 900fps .38 handgun bullet and a 2700fps FMJ Rifle bullet even with that punny 7x57
Man I respect most ideas but I cannot even relish condoning that
rubish for fear some young novice reads this,tries this and gets killed. Your Quote:(If you can do the deal under pressure you "will" win every time) BULL! But hey ------Better you than me Pal!

Guns are Guns and Bull is Bull ------------Regards

86er are you reading this????????????

DBW · Post by **DBW** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:02 am

These caliber vs. caliber debates are always a hoot.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:20 am

Man I had to jump in on that one,boy oh boy!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 16, 2009 9:55 am

the telegraphist wrote:. . . elephants have been killed with a rimfire 22, not that it would be my pref caliber.

Seeing the way raccoons thrash about after a brain shot with a .22LR, I sure wouldn't want to be anywhere NEAR a dangerous game animal if they behave the same way. Only lasts about 30 seconds, but the coons thrash like crazy.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat May 16, 2009 10:53 am

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat May 16, 2009 12:56 pm

Does anybody have the info from what the old guys used in the .38/.44 Outdoorsman before the .357 Mag came along, they did some heavy bullet, heavy charge experimentation.

Post by **Hobie** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:57 pm

I shoot the big boys like the .45 ACP for the fun of it. Truth be told I only need the .22 Colibris fired from my Bearcat.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat May 16, 2009 2:58 pm

The Heaviest weight I know of was a 173gr@1200fps
out of the S&W HD 44 framed .38 Phil Sharpe and Elmer Keith built that design and I think there was also a 162gr @1379
Supposedly there was a heavy FED load that shot a 200gr@1070
though not much is said about that.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat May 16, 2009 3:08 pm

mescalero1 wrote:Does anybody have the info from what the old guys used in the .38/.44 Outdoorsman before the .357 Mag came along, they did some heavy bullet, heavy charge experimentation.

Here re some .38/44 loads:

158gr Speer Gold Dot HP, 12.5gr 2400, Federal 100 primer, 1057fps
158gr Speer Gold Dot HP, 13 gr 2400, Federal 100 primer, 1091fps

180 Cast Performance WFNGC, 14.2gr Lil'Gun, CCI 550 primer, 1261fps

They can also be used in the S&W Model 10, K-frame. If you'll recall the S&W Combat Masterpiece .357Magnum/.38 Special was built on the K-frame too. It (the S&W K-frame .357 Magnum)was pitched by Bill Jordan to S&W for quite a while before S&W built it.

There were some hotter loads developed for the .38/44 but I haven't tried any of them in any of my .38 S&W Specials.

Check out Hanloader Oct 2006 No. 243
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I guess just us old-fanny burbs remember how popular the .38 S&W Special was in the past.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Sat May 16, 2009 3:52 pm

I think I remember that the .38 with 158 gr Lead hp +p loads actually out performed the .357 in one shot stops but my old brain may be deceiving me. I personally have chosen the .38/.357 as my caliber of choice and would be the last I get rid of. I don't know if the .38 out performs the others, but I do know I don't want to be shot by any of them.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:01 pm

I know that the .38 S&W Special "is not mightier" than the .357 Magnum or the .44 Magnum. I just used the word "mightier" to maybe get some more looks and replies to this thread.

Having said that, I still think the .38 S&W Special is one heck of a cartridge under 25-yards. It can be loaded very close to .357 Magnum loads if not to .357 Matching loads.

I've been looking for a S&W Model 10 or 15 but they are on the scarce side now-a-days in my area. My local gun store downtown has a 4" Ruger GP100 that I don't really want but I'll get it if no Model 10 or Model 15 shows up soon and use the GP100 exclusively for .38 S&W Special.

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Sat May 16, 2009 7:36 pm

Last time I went hock shopping in Phoenix I saw quite a few of those critters.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:25 pm

DBW wrote:These caliber vs. caliber debates are always a hoot.

+1 (or "+ 0.1", or whatever...

)

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat May 16, 2009 8:26 pm

Modoc ED wrote:I know that the .38 S&W Special "is not mightier" than the .357 Magnum or the .44 Magnum. I just used the word "mightier" to maybe get some more looks and replies to this thread.

Keeps us browsing and replying...!

No end of possibilities.

flb · Post by **flb** » Sun May 17, 2009 10:16 am

Have read a lot of Keith stories about his heavy loaded .38's. Tried them all(in my Security Six) and they are stout plus. For home defense I use the Smith airweight in .38, 5 grs Unique, 158gr swc. Accurate, easy to control and I have confidence in it, plus I'm not exactly a wimp when it comes to fighting. I also have my Thunderer in .45 with 8grs Unique, 250 cast swc. Good to go and the wife can shoot them all as good as I can.

the telegraphist · Post by **the telegraphist** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:47 am

Madman 4570, Gday to you sir,
I think you totally missed my point, no way would I use a 38spl as you describe. Read again.

Adobe Walls · Post by **Adobe Walls** » Mon May 18, 2009 4:43 pm

Howdy

I tend to agree that the .38 Special is waaaay underated these days. Several years ago I took a crack at a little muley buck with a home brew .38 Spec. load consisting of a 150 grain SWC that I'd poured from wheel weights in a LEE mould. It was backed by about 4.5 grains of W 231 and fired from a 4" Ruger Sec. Six. He didn't show much flinch at the shot but he managed to travel only about 25 yards and pile up out of sight in the scrub oak. One broken bone, a perforated heart and a bruise on the opposite wall of the chest cavity. Bullet was lost in the process of field dressing; never even got a look at it. Penetration was pretty darn good for a grouse load!
I tend to think that a small or medium frame .38/.357 set up to suit you is probably one of the most useful handguns for general carry ever conceived. A decent 158 grain SWC .38 Special load will do a lot more than you'd expect, given the anemic sounding "numbers". They just work better than they "should".AW

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Mon May 18, 2009 5:06 pm

If the 38 Special is so all fired great, why was the 357 magnum ever developed? Because the 38 Special just did get the job don't on a regular enough basis and this has been proven again and again thru history. Why did the Army go back the the 45 Colt from the 38 during the Spanish American War? Same old story, "Not enough gun?" And do not try playing the "better bullets available today" card, because those better bullets are available the the 357 and 44 Mag, etc.

ByronG · Post by **ByronG** » Mon May 18, 2009 6:33 pm

ByronG wrote:
tman wrote:AGREED, up close with a hit in the vitals, the game won't know the difference, and, they can't read the headstamp on the cartridge. the .357 s&w took all north american and african game UP CLOSE, 70+ years ago. keep it close and place the bullet where it counts, and it's all you will ever need.
Not being argumentative... but all?

I would really like to know more about who were taking elephant, cape buffalo, rhinos, etc with a .357 magnum pistol 70+ years ago.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Mon May 18, 2009 7:49 pm

Bear 45/70 wrote:If the 38 Special is so all fired great, why was the 357 magnum ever developed? Because the 38 Special just did get the job don't on a regular enough basis and this has been proven again and again thru history. Why did the Army go back the the 45 Colt from the 38 during the Spanish American War? Same old story, "Not enough gun?" And do not try playing the "better bullets available today" card, because those better bullets are available the the 357 and 44 Mag, etc.

Bear 45/70 - This whole thread hinges on the .38 Smith and Wesson Special NOT the .38 Smith and Wesson!!!

The .38 Smith and Wesson Special wasn't introduced until 1902. The Spanish American Was was in 1898.

Do your home work.

Now, during the Philippine American War (Philippine Insurrection) which was from 1899 through Jul 1902, the .38 Smith & Wesson was still used by the American Forces and yes, the Colt 45 was reintroduced and given to some troops. Although the official end of the Philippine Insurrection was July 4, 1903, there were skirmishes with the Moros until 1913 and by that time even the .45ACP Colt 1911 was in use in the Philippines.

So, my .02¢ says maybe ya ought to reconsider the .38 Smith and Wesson Special against the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. If you have even a modicum of knowledge about the .38-44 you know that the .38 Smith and Wesson Special can be loaded to .357 Magnum specs.

.38 Smith and Wesson ------ .38 Smith and Wesson Special. Two different animals.

Travis Morgan · Post by **Travis Morgan** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:19 pm

ByronG wrote:
ByronG wrote:
tman wrote:AGREED, up close with a hit in the vitals, the game won't know the difference, and, they can't read the headstamp on the cartridge. the .357 s&w took all north american and african game UP CLOSE, 70+ years ago. keep it close and place the bullet where it counts, and it's all you will ever need.
Not being argumentative... but all?
I would really like to know more about who were taking elephant, cape buffalo, rhinos, etc with a .357 magnum pistol 70+ years ago.

A certain Mr. Wesson comes to mind....

As for using the .38 in favor of a larger gun, I could frame a house with a tack hammer, but I believe the 28 oz. framer models do the job oh so much better!
The inuit peoples of the north have been known to report killing everything including polar bears with a .22, but I simply wouldn't care to try it, nor would I hesitate to call the man that does, a fool.

Bear 45/70 · Post by **Bear 45/70** » Mon May 18, 2009 9:32 pm

Modoc ED wrote:
Bear 45/70 wrote:If the 38 Special is so all fired great, why was the 357 magnum ever developed? Because the 38 Special just did get the job don't on a regular enough basis and this has been proven again and again thru history. Why did the Army go back the the 45 Colt from the 38 during the Spanish American War? Same old story, "Not enough gun?" And do not try playing the "better bullets available today" card, because those better bullets are available the the 357 and 44 Mag, etc.
Bear 45/70 - This whole thread hinges on the .38 Smith and Wesson Special NOT the .38 Smith and Wesson!!!

The .38 Smith and Wesson Special wasn't introduced until 1902. The Spanish American Was was in 1898.

Do your home work.

Now, during the Philippine American War (Philippine Insurrection) which was from 1899 through Jul 1902, the .38 Smith & Wesson was still used by the American Forces and yes, the Colt 45 was reintroduced and given to some troops. Although the official end of the Philippine Insurrection was July 4, 1903, there were skirmishes with the Moros until 1913 and by that time even the .45ACP Colt 1911 was in use in the Philippines.

So, my .02¢ says maybe ya ought to reconsider the .38 Smith and Wesson Special against the .357 Magnum and .44 Magnum. If you have even a modicum of knowledge about the .38-44 you know that the .38 Smith and Wesson Special can be loaded to .357 Magnum specs.

.38 Smith and Wesson ------ .38 Smith and Wesson Special. Two different animals.

And please point out where I called, the Spanish American War cartridge a 38 Special? I specifically called it a "38", no suffix.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:03 am

People have killed bears with 22 rimfires. All it means is you can kill a bear with a 22. Dont mean its as good as anything else.
You killed it with a 38 special, the same shot with a 44 or 357 would have killed it. But there are shots that the 357 or 44 could make thay the 38 wouldn't. Its also irrelevant how stiff you can load it. If you load it up to 357 power, its not a really a 38 anymore its a 357. The only real difference between the two is power level.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:55 am

Let me know when ANY .38 special or whatever .38 throws a
340grain slug at 1500fps??
Even that load is Not acceptable for hunting a 6ton POD african elephant.
Can a .38 kill it maybe eventually("maybe" before it kills you?????????)maybe not.Did someone say animal cruelity.?
It would be a stunt.The PH would have his old .460 weatherby
off safe and probably fire about as soon as your gun went BANG.
Though I dont think any PH will let you try a .38 handgun.

The very "minimal" I would consider would be a 45-70 with a 400gr punch bullet(loaded to the gills)Heck I have a 454 casull I would not try it with, and that makes those .38s cap guns????
Arguing this topic is "like" arguing about a Dodge minivan being able to out pull a Ford F250 4x4 Diesel.

Even if you do load that 38 special or(38/44)whatever, where in Gods name does that EVEN put it anywhere close to a 44 Mag.You load that .38special to the gills and I will load that 44mag to the gills???? Fair is Fair for comparing power potential.And the 44Mag
isnt enough for elephant?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue May 19, 2009 2:35 pm

C'mon, guys -

.38 is a dandy little round; +P is better. .44 or .45 caliber rounds, such as Silvertips, make even a bigger hole, and it would logically seem that their incapacitation would therefore be much quicker and more thorough.

If I had to shoot a bear within 25 yards with a .38 or throw a rock, I'd use the .38; if I didn't just decide to lay down and act dead first. If I shot the critter and lived, I would have to conclude that God is simply not through with me, yet.

It seems to me that there is a reason for bullet manufacturers going to the expense and trouble of developing and manufacturing ammunition of larger calibers!

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue May 19, 2009 6:47 pm

a .38 180 gr. hardcast slug at 1200fps. at CLOSE RANGE will penetrate, cut blood vessels and destroy vital organs. so will a .338wm., so will a .458 wcf. game ain't armored plated. game don't read cartridge headstamps. i'd rather have my .348 when facing a brownbear, but if all i had was the aformentioned .38, i'd kill the bear.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:21 pm

i'd kill the bear.

Your load is more like a .357 (good cast 180gr at 1200 is the famous Federal CastCore Load) and those are a far cry from a 158 Special Load

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue May 19, 2009 7:23 pm

Travis Morgan wrote: The inuit peoples of the north have been known to report killing everything including polar bears with a .22, but I simply wouldn't care to try it, nor would I hesitate to call the man that does, a fool.

Yeah,
But those hardy folks sleep regularly surrounded just by blocks of ice and eat whale blubber instead of ice cream, neither of which I would really care to do! And who keeps records on how many of our Far North brothers were et up by a polar bear with a .22 slug in him?

JohndeFresno · Post by **JohndeFresno** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:32 pm

Here is parting shot on this subject, since I, too, am concerned that some newer shooters might put a little too much credibility on some of the posts here that infer that a tiny .22 caliber pill, or even a hard cast .38, is universally acceptable and sufficiently humane for anything much over 150 lbs.

1) Accuracy counts, sure. But not all hunters shoot 1,000 rounds a month, like some here apparently do; so near accuracy should be taken into account.

2) Have we forgotten the adrenalin factor? Shooting game - even a harmless lil' Bambi - starts your juices flowing, breathing heavier, and hands shaking quite a bit more than shooting at a paper target, on your own time, from a pistol rest. Those of us who are VERY experienced hunters (no, I don't call myself one of those) have possibly taken control of these highly undesirable variables to the shooting process. But I've been around enough really good hunters to know that the effect does not go away completely - let's be honest with each other.

3) My carry gun is the Colt .45 ACP, which I sincerely believe is the finest and best handgun and caliber combination for self-defense, excluding perhaps some $5,000 custom job of the same type that I can't afford. For me, a properly loaded .44 Magnum is the optimum fun gun and hunting handgun for anything in my state, even though I also own a beautiful .357 6" Python (which I rarely fire). For hunting, no .38 Special load can come close to a similar load in a .44, I don't think. I THINK that the .44 boolit IS bigger, and that its optimum expansion is also larger; but don't quote me. And even my bespectacled eyes can see that the casing holds more powder; and the gun has more steel on it to handle more powerful loads. Simple observations, methinks.

Having said that, people who prefer larger firearms are not all inept at shooting or cleaning their handguns, thank you very much. In fact, I would guess that MOST folks who prefer the larger bore firearms are quite experienced shooters; new shooters are frequently intimidated by overblown stories of recoil and other nonsense. My first handgun was indeed a sweet little Colt Police Positive Special (.38 Spcl. caliber). That was 50 years ago. For 43 years (starting with the .45 ACP in Viet Nam) I've fired and regularly carried by mandate, necessity or (sometimes) choice the .38, .380, .357, 9mm, .40, and .45 ACP. And while it's true that most men between 13 and 18 years of age, and then again most folks older than 45 think that they know it all (and none of us do), I've seen a few and studied quite a few police shootings, the source of most of my observations handgun effectiveness.

4) Again realizing that rank-and-file police officers are not necessarily the best shots in the world, they are (at least in California) regularly trained and must qualify several times a year, under stress conditions and rather considerable peer pressure. Even so, they do not always land their shots in a 1/2 inch circle on live "prey" - quite the contrary. Now liken that to a shot at some Bruin or large tusker that emerges out of nowhere, perhaps confronting a hunter who might only practice just before the season begins! We are not all 86er's on this net!

5) I have experienced (been a part of) the police transitions all the way from the off-hand in pocket, one hand upright side stance(!) with .38 revolvers to .357's to 9mm's to .40's and .45's. Since the FBI in all of their supposed wisdom did not "bless" the .38 Super semi-auto pistol (pretty much the same, ballistically), the .357 died to the semi-auto. Citing Fresno City Police and Fresno County Sheriff shootings of which I have studied since the 38 and 9mm era (whatever was FBI's Holy Grail at the moment), memory serves me well that there were several continued attacks after the assailant was shot several times. Once the .40's and .45's were employed, the assailants were usually dropped immediately in their tracks, either permanently or long enough for the police to take control of the situation.

As far as I'm concerned, in the real world where you might not be able to take 3 seconds a shot and punch neat little cloverleaf patterns, using shooting glasses and earplugs, into a piece of highly contrasted target paper at 25 yards, and on a flat terrain with no obstacles and plenty of warning, it is clear to this old codger (among many other opinionated old codgers on this site

) that the .38 argument for larger game is, shall we say, a bit too apologetic and therefore exaggerated for this fine little target round.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue May 19, 2009 8:57 pm

I think I will stick my sword point down in the sand on this one.
Your right, I might have read more into it than there was

I will say the .38 special and the .38 S&W are both fantastic cartridges.And I dont mean to cut anyones down.
Everyone has their favorite calibers and thats the great thing about guns, we all have our choices.
So have fun and keep shooting those great .38s
see ya !

Rifleman336 · Post by **Rifleman336** » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:11 pm

With modren HP's on Humans, both 9MM/.38 Spls do alot better since the 1980's still the darkages as far as hollowpoints goes. But to say a .38 SPL is a better stopping round on game, I doubt it. Just like a .357 Mag is better than a .35 Remington. The dog doesn't hunt.

Rifleman 336