What's The Fascination With Small Groups?

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:19 am

I'm not talking about the competitive shooting or benchrest shooters, but I sure agree with the late Col Cooper. Shoot one shot...Did you hit it?.....Good group!! If I'm shooting at a pop can at 100yds (3x5"??) and hit it.....dangit, that's a good group

I find myself shooting less and less at paper and more at things offhand....especially with my handguns (thanks Scott and TERRY)....(off the soapbox, let me have it

)

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:48 am

Depends on what you're shootin groups of. If you're shooting oh, say, groups of terrorists, then of course large groups are preferable to small groups, sort of like prairie dogs...

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:34 am

I think that grouping is a training tool, i.e., something to provide a focus, or a game to play while getting serious work done at the range.

If you can do it once, can you do it twice?

If you reload, they probably also provide necessary information about load consistancy.

SJPrice · Post by **SJPrice** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:59 am

FWiedner wrote:I think that grouping is a training tool, i.e., something to provide a focus, or a game to play while getting serious work done at the range.

If you can do it once, can you do it twice?

If you reload, they probably also provide necessary information about load consistancy.

What he said, plus it takes the guesswork out of wondering when you miss that single shot, if it was the accuracy of the gun/load or if it was you?

86er · Post by **86er** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:48 am

I shoot off the bench until I find a load that consistently produces small groups from my gun. After that I shoot from field positions at animal targets and sillouette plates. The idea of the smallest groups is to determine consistency and to dial in the rifle for the trajectory I want. When I shoot offhand, or from shooting sticks, I know any aberation in my hits or consistency is me, not the gun/ammo combination. You need one before you can move to the other. However, staying on the bench for my purposes would not serve my goals.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:47 am

86er +1

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 7:49 am

Simply a measure of consistency. We don't question why a race car driver wants to go faster than anyone else or why a poker player wants to win more money or why either wants to do it time and again.

Mike-in-WV · Post by **Mike-in-WV** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 8:34 am

For me it's because I want to shoot the best "MY GUN" can no matter what I'm shooting at or why and the only way I can do that is to know what my rifle or handgun is capable of when it it comes to accuracy. That requires many shots at targets and with as solid of a rest as I can make and with many different loads or brands of ammo. Once I know what it will do at different distances then I like to practice by roving the hills and shooting at pine cones, stumps, stones and even Yotes and fox. When I know my gun is sighted in the best it can be then I'm a happy shooter!

Mike
PS This is the start of sighting in right:

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C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:59 am

Whats fascinating is that my bullets do not fly into small groups, even by accident!

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:04 am

"Only accurate rifles are interesting" (Col. Townsend Whelan)

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:42 am

I shoot off the bench to adjust my sights as precisely as possible for 100 yards. Once I have sighted a rifle in, I almost never shoot it off the bench again.

Here is a target I shot off the bench (edit: with OEM open iron sights) while sighting in a Winchester Model 94. It shows two groups (indicated by colored marks) in a 3" Target Dot shot at 100 yards. I used a six-o'clock hold (target dot on top of front sight) which makes this sight in 2 & 1/2" high at 100 yards.

The rifle that shot this group will probably never be shot off the bench again but by getting this initial sight in, I am confident (no, sure) that off the bench shooting off-hand that at any distance from point-blank out to at least 150 yards, I'll be able to place any shot within a six inch circle and with a little guess work an eight inch circle at 200 yards and I'll not only be able to do it with the brand/weight ammo I sighted in with but any brand/same weight ammo I use.

I will say this about shooting off-hand. If it is possible to use a rest while hunting/shooting in the field (fence post, tree trunk/limb) I will use it which will help me make more precise shots.

I am not concerned with small groups (i.e., 1" MOA or less). You'll note that the two groups on the target dot are not tiny. I don't care if they are tiny or not. I just care that at 100 yards, off the bench, that I can consistently hit a 3" diameter target dot.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:46 am

In my opinion real shooting (offhand, sitting down .... real-life hunting shooting positions) are where it is at. However, first a fellow has be make sure that he's got an accurate load, especially if he's shooting cast out of old Winchesters that may not always have first class bores, or if he has a bent barrel (like I did). I spend a lot of time developing a load for each of my rifles that is as accurate as the rifle will shoot. That is where small groups come into play. It is also good to train oneself to the sight picture, which can be different for different sights. Once that is done, however, then my favourite shooting is offhand.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:51 am

Of course you have to be sighted in first

It's especially necessary to know how high you're shooting at 100yds.....but after that..... I can usually do the fine tuning off the roof of the car or bed rail of the rig..... My handguns, especially, do not shoot the same offhand as they do benched

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 12:42 pm

The two should go together.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:16 pm

I think small groups are very anti-social. I like large groups so everybody can be real friendly like. Er that is what you are on about

I gave up on tiny groups ages ago, that does not mean I don't try with finding a load! Just that I see loads of people trying to squeeze the tinyist group from thier rig but when it comes to shooting off hand it does not matter how good a grouper the rifle is cos they are hopeless!
I,m more of Blains thinking and will often check my zero off hand on a rock or post just to see. It can open a can of worms though as when I miss it means I have to make sure why I/it was off but I'm shooting so whats the prob

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:24 pm

Ah, the shoot the rock crowd.

Well, it is reasonably close to shooting a deer. In the 35 or 40 animals I have seen shot, the animal shooting pretty closely followed the paper shooting in results.

jsimmons · Post by **jsimmons** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 1:58 pm

Shooting small groups is an indication of a consistency of the rifle and ammo (it's actually more about the ammo than anything else).

For instance, I have a CZ-452 Silhouette (.22LR). With Federal Bulk ammo (325 cartridges in a box), my (10-shot) groups are the size of a 50-cent piece at 50 yards. With Wolf M/T ammo, the groups are the size of a dime. With Eley Tenex, the groups are ragged holes.

Quality ammo means smaller groups. Smaller groups means I can count on my bullets hitting what I'm aiming at. I can't afford the "good stuff", so I settle for middle of the road.

I only shoot from the bench when I'm sighting in a scope or testing new ammo for consistency. Other than that, it's offhand all the way.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 2:02 pm

If you can consistantly hit a pop can offhand at 100 yards that is pretty good grouping.

I agree with most of the others, shooting groups from the bench is a good thing when you are testing ammo or getting sight settings. Then, the groups you get when you stand on your hind legs and shoot like a man will be all you and you cant blame it on anything else!!

cas · Post by **cas** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:05 pm

Any darn fool can get lucky. Groups prove to yourself that it's not luck.

Besides I shoot for enjoyment. shooting one shot and going home doesn't quite cut it.

Jeff Quinn · Post by **Jeff Quinn** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 5:33 pm

Like large breasts, small groups are not necessary, but they still make me smile!

Bigahh · Post by **Bigahh** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 6:33 pm

Well said Jeff!

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 9:55 pm

What Hobie said!!
I am always trying to get my guns to shoot tighter groups.
That is what I do!
I handload to get tighter groups.
That is what I do!
Factoy ammo is no fun!
Even then we all can improve. I know I can.
Paper plates dont fit my three ring binder worth a dang.

I can measure improvement in my loads better with a caliper than I can witha 16' tape measure.
Each to his own! Have fun!!

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:15 pm

Chuck you've been drinking that full strength coffee again haven't you? Your one hole group almost started to open up, almost

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:37 pm

Mr. Cash , I just dont know what happened. Maybe I missed a wind change.

I have a friend who shoots five into the teens( less than .200) regularly at 200 yd.

Don`t get me wrong boys, I admire folks who can stand on their hind legs and shoot small groups. I cant, I am not physically able to.
I have a friend, Dick Vrooman ,who shot on the U.S. Muzzle loading
International team for years. He and his wife Peg are both Gold medalists many times over and have shot for us all over the globe.
Years ago he shot a world record group with his ML long rifle flint lock at 100 mtr. 10 shots that can be covered with a tea cup. Off hand.

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 10:50 pm

Always enjoy your targets Chuck. I'm intimidated by them, but still enjoy them

Still working on a one ragged hole group with the Winchester 356 Win. at about 55 yards(reciever sights). Best is .75" so far at that distance but they are cast bullets that should be moving over 2000 fps. It may just be that that is the best I can do and not the rifle. I fire one shot groups at 100 yards to save on frustration

My new Marlin 39A is a little tackdriver too though I need to play with different brands. If the temps get over 32 this weekend, to the range I will go. I don't enjoy myself when I can't feel my hands. Sorry for the old pic:

Dakota Mike · Post by **Dakota Mike** » Wed Jan 02, 2008 11:30 pm

Ya got me, I don't know either.