Marlin .44 mag twist rate

[kmittleman]

Hi all,


I've been reading that because Marlin has a 1:38 twist on their 1894 in .44 mag, you can't shoot bullets over 270 gr. and expect decent accuracy. I'd love to have one and load it up w/ heavy bullets ( 325 gr. ) for hunting, but am now unsure if that would work. Any thoughts?


-Kevin

[mescalero1]

I asked this question a while back, did not get any feedback, lets hope different people read your post, I also; would like to know.

[Hobie]

You read right. However, I've also read/heard that not all .44 Mag rifles are 1-38 so you can find one that isn't and use that. My Contender 21" barrel is one such, although not a repeater.

IME, one really doesn't need heavier bullets for deer, hogs, goats, and such. Now, if you intend to use it for elk, big bears, moose... If you need more gun, get more gun.

[Old Savage]

300s should work OK.

[mescalero1]

Explanation, please.

[Old Savage]

I in 38" will stabilize 300s.

[kmittleman]

You read right. However, I've also read/heard that not all .44 Mag rifles are 1-38 so you can find one that isn't and use that. My Contender 21" barrel is one such, although not a repeater.

IME, one really doesn't need heavier bullets for deer, hogs, goats, and such. Now, if you intend to use it for elk, big bears, moose... If you need more gun, get more gun.

So, if I get the 1894CB in .45 colt ( 1:16 ) would that do for Elk and such out to 100 yards or so? Could I use the 300+ gr. bullets?

[AJMD429]

Here's some good stuff on twist rates -
Twist Rates - LASC - http://www.lasc.us/Brennan_2-3_Twist.htm

and here's a really good article specific to heavy bullets in the .44 Mag from the Marlin 1894 -
Heavy 44 Mag bullets in the Marlin 1894 - http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm

I can't speak to elk and larger game, but for BIG old northern-midwest whitetails, the 240 grain softpoints just drop them flat (they ALWAYS go clear through the thorax).

I haven't shot 300 grain in the 1894, but some folks have - with good results. The OTHER factor that may affect accuracy quite a bit is the tendency of the .44 and .45 calibers both to be over-bore, so it is a good idea to slug the barrel if you plan on cast bullets. After all, the main reason to want proper rate of twist is to maximize accuracy.

Like I said, I haven't hunted elk with anything, but given the choice between a .44 Mag and a .45 Colt I'd probably take the latter - however I'd be way more comfortable with a .444 Marlin or .45-70 or .35 Remington, than either of the 'short' cartridges.
(...of course, there's always the .454 Casull.... )

Keep in mind also that it isn't just twist vs. length/weight - VELOCITY has just as much effect on RPM's as the twist does, so a bullet going 1800 fps from a barrel with an 1:36 twist would have the same RPM's as the same bullet going 1200 fps from a 1:24 twist, and much the same stability.

[Grizz]

cast 325s keyhole from my 1894, and I'm not willing to up the velocity to stress test it.

IMO, the whole entire reason to up the bullet weight is to upsize the momentum to gain certain bone breakage without deflection or bullet fragmenting, and two holes regardless of angle.

I've shot .44 cal 300s, 325s, 355s, and 405s from hand guns, it's a dirty rotten stinking shame that I can't use those bullets in my carbine.

I believe that Marlin has one .44 out now with a much faster barrel. That would be a spectacular rig if you can get it to cycle the longer bullets.

The 1894 is superb with the box stock 240b jsp and it hammers deer into venison with boring efficiency. It's all about shot placement.

Grizz

[thornblom]

I have 2 Winchester 94's in .44 mag. One is a 20" barrel Trails End, the other Is a 16" barrel Wrangler. Both have the 1 in 38" rifling twist. Neither rifle is very accurate with anything heavier than 270 grains. I have seen Ruger revolvers and S&W revolvers that were more accurate at 100 yards than my rifles. Those revolvers have a twist rate of 1 in 20" for the Ruger, and I think 1 in 18 3/4" for the Smith and Wesson. Before Winchester quit making the 94's, they built some that had 1 in 26" twist rates. A step in the right direction but only about half way there. On the silhouette course, using the contender pistol, the national long run on rams was shot using a Bullbery barrel with a 1 in 14" twist rate in .44 mag.

A friend of mine has a Marlin 1894 .44 mag with a custom Shilen barrel using a 1 in 20" twist rate. He can use up to 325 grain bullets, cast and jacketed, with no problem. Getting 1 1/4" to 1 5/8" five shot groups at 100 yards is standard fare, sometimes better. But try telling the major manufactors this and they will laugh at you.

The best I have gotten from my rifles, actually the wrangler, (16" barrel) was with this load:

Case: .44 mag, Star-line
Primer: Federal LP Mag
Powder: 20 grains of WW-296
Bullet: Speer 270 grain GD jfp

1 5/8" five shot group at 100 yards and one 3 shot 100 yard group of 7/8". Using a Leupold 2.5x scope in leupold mts and rings.

My 20" barrel Trails End does pretty good using 240 grain Oregon Trail rnfp cast bullets and 9.2 grains of Herco. Usually less than 2" groups using Marbles tang sight and Williams fire sight on the front.

Neither one of these rifles can group under 6" at 100 yards with 300 grain bullets, cast or jacketed.

I would love to have them both rebarreled, but then you couldn't use them in competition.

Oh well, better luck next time.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

PS: I have a Marlin Cowboy Limited 24" barrel rifle in .45 Colt that has a 1 in 16" twist rate and it shoots 225 grain to 325 grain bullets all very good using various charges of Unique, WW-296 and IMR-4227. I think the twist rate is the secret.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Many shooters report good luck with 300 gr. bullets.

[thornblom]

That is good to know. I wonder what load they are using. I tried many many loads and didn't have any luck at all with the 300 grain bullets.

Sincerely,
Dave (Bubba) Thornblom

[jdad]

We have several shooters in our silhouette league that use 300gr cast bullets, in their 1894CB's, with excellent results. I don't think they are pushing them over 1500fps, but they are stable/accurate enough to have no problem dropping the ram at 200m.

[AJMD429]

One of these days I plan to try some 300-grainers in my Ruger 96/44, since it has 1:20" twist (one more thing to like about the Rugers) - and see if they are accurate. The 240 grain ones do really well out of the 96/44; 5 into 1-1/2" if I do my part and a good scope. Double that with a lower power one, but still the potential accuracy is there.

[marlinman93]

I've never owned a newer 1894 in .44 mag, but have several friends that own and shoot them with 300 gr. bullets. They use them for hunting and get great results with both accuracy and knockdown power up to black bear size game.

[mescalero1]

marlinman,
Thanks, black bear is exactly the application I am concerned with.

[horsesoldier03]

Personally I feel just about any name brand 240 grn JSP will do about anything I need it too. No bear in my area, but back home we do have some big hogs. If I had any doubt, I would move to the 265 grain JSP. IMHO the .44 mag is a 100 yard rifle. Your best to love it for what it is (fast handling short range carbine) and not look at its shortcomings. If you need something with more power well thats why they made a 45-70. If you want longer distance go for the 30-06. Luckily both can be had in a LEVERGUN too!

Read the reviews in the add.

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/?p ... ber=605468

[FOTIS]

I in 38" will stabilize 300s.

From a 444 Marlin at 2100 fps yes!
from a 44 mag at 1400 fps....I have never seen it or from a ruger auto 10/44


444 with 300 grain sierra 55.5 gr H335 2100 fps



300 gr beartooth cast same load ad above



265 Hornady SP

[Grizz]

In some carbines it can. In ours it will not. The 300s go thru plywood sideways, not in line with the bore axis.

[JFE]

I don't have a Marlin 44 but do have a B92 in 44 mag. It similarly has shallow, multi groove rifling and a 1 in 38" twist.

300 gr cast worked fine but 340 gr cast started to yaw at 25 mtrs. With cast in this rifle you need a large bullet diameter due to barrel diameter, shallow rifling and large throat. Best results I've had with cast were with bullets sized 433/434.

Best accuracy was with Win 296 for heavy cast or jacketed loads. This powder has problems with air space and works best with a mag primer and a good crimp. The powder is the same as H-110. Used correctly its one of the best powders for full power loads in mag pistol cases.

I knew a guy with a Marlin 1894 in 45LC and while these rifles have a fast twist, his had an extremely large groove diameter. He reported very poor accuracy with normal sized 45LC cast pills and tried 350gr pills designed for the 45/70 and was very happy with the accuracy.

[AJMD429]

One other point - at the normal '44 Mag' ranges, even a yawing bullet an inch or so off-line will still be pretty lethal.

The real (practical) issue is therefore which is better (ballistic details not precise - for illustration purposes only):

• a) 240 grain shooting 2.5" groups at 100 yards, traveling straight-on at 1500 fps, or
  b) 300 grain shooting 4.5" groups at 100 yards, entering sideways at 1300 fps (think of the 'meplat'... )

Certainly a case could be made for a 300 grain bullet at the same 2.5" accuracy level, not yawing, but to do that might require more velocity in a slow-twist, so would need a 444 Marlin case or a really 'hot' 44 Mag load that might be over-pressure.

As a general rule, I try to stick with what a cartridge can do WELL, and if I need more oomph in terms of either velocity or weight, I have an excuse to buy another gun...

[2X22]

I've been shooting 300's from .44 rifles for over 30 years without a problem, from at least a half dozen different rifles if not more.

[44shooter]

My 1894 shoots 300 grainers just fine. I've tried Fed Castcore, Hornaday XTP and a European brand (maybe Prvi?). Both the American rounds are accurate. The imported rounds aren't as accurate but do not keyhole. I have shot a deer with a Castcore using open sights. I believe that some Marlins will not stabilize heavy bullets but certainly not all.

I know I don't need 300 grains for our skinny deer, but we have huge black bear here and I rather have one do all load. I may end up dropping down to Speer 270 grain for smoother feeding.

IMO there are some excellent bullets in between 240 and 300 gr. Like the Speer 270, Nosler 250 Partition, Hornaday 265 (which was designed for the 444).

[buckeyeshooter]

I have a Marlin 1 in 38 Microgroove, manufactured 1984. Shoots 300 grain XTP's just fine. I have not shot anything heavier. If I need more than 300 grains.... that's what a 45/70 is for!