OT-Can 03A3 DP rifles be rebuilt? UPDATE!

[awp101]

Got an email from a vendor I've bought from before for Springfield 03A3 Drill Purpose rifles. I was thinking about getting one for the action but part of the description has me wondering:

These guns have their barrels plugged and welded, boltface and cutoffs welded as well and the lower chambers removed to render them permanently deactivated

Lower chamber? Of the barrel or is that part of the receiver? I'm thinking it's the barrel but I'm not up on 03 nomenclature.

I know I'd be looking at a new barrel, bolt, cutoff (maybe, is it really needed?) and probably stock since these have plastic stocks according to the rest of the ad.

[jnyork]

Those rifles in that condition are thrashed, a master tool & die maker might be able to somehow salvage the action but it's highly unlikely, they are considered damaged beyond repair. If you need an action of that type, it's not too hard to find a "sporterized" ( bubbaized) Springfield at a gunshow and go from there.

[Malamute]

I would say it depends on the particular receiver. I built a gun on a drill reciever, and have seen others done. They arent all done the same. The one I did hadn't had as much welding heat on the front of the receiver (locking lug area) as some others I've seen, so I'm not concerned. If anything, it would most likely aneal it, and the bolt would set back and get hard to open, but in a couple years of shooting mine, it's been fine. I found near perfect original stock in a shop for about $75, and rounded up the other parts here and there. Mine was just a receiver and barrel when I got it. Mine looked like a new or near new gun when it was made into a drill rifle.

To rebuild one, the barrel to receiver weld has to be carefully ground/turned to not touch the receiver face, or not eat into it. I had my 'smith turn it on his lathe to cut them apart, and it cleaned up nicely.

The bolt stop weld can be ugly on some, mine wasnt too bad, and cleaned up pretty easily, some of the others I've seen were goobered up more.

The lower chamber thing wasnt done on the ones I've seen, but it should be the barrel, not the receiver. One of the ones I saw had been a virtuallu new gun with a perfect bore. Too bad they welded a chunk of steel into the chamber. The rest of the barrel may be usable as a blank on something skinny. it was a very nice 4 groove remington barrel on an 03-A3. Sad.

The firing pin hole in the bolt face was also welded shut on all that I've seen. Bolts can be had for something under $20 for a good stripped body, it isnt worth trying to save one in my opinion. All I've seen had all the other parts on the bolt, and looked usable, to like new.

I would prefer to see the individual gun in person before buying it if you want to rebuilt it as a shooter. I'd want to see how far the heat travelled on the underside of the receiver where they welded the barrel to it, and how much of a weld bead they made on the bolt stop.

I think I ended up with about $275 in mine all said and done, and used all milled parts for the most part except the trigger guard/floor plate. Other than the small discolored spot by the bolt stop, looks like a high condition original gun. I havent refinished any of it, but will use some cold blue on the small weld spot mentioned. I just never have done it yet, as it's not very noticable.

[awp101]

Thanks for the info!

jnyork, around here they want $500+ for even Bubba'd ones. Too rich for me as a starter project.

Malamute, I didn't realize the barrels were welded at the receiver as well (don't know WHY it didn't occur to me... ) so I didn't think about the heat effects.

I suppose it would be a bit of a challenge to fit a small ring Mauser barrel to these....

[Malamute]

Barrels arent that hard to find. I've bought "sporterized" barrels in very good condition for $25.

I see not-to-fancy sporters for $300 or under now and then. If you want one all military, it may take some doing to get one all back original looking. I like the military guns, but prefer a decent sporter myself. Perhaps a new sporter stock in a nicer style and wood grade, maybe better sights or scope upgrade, and you can have an excellent quality and grade shooter/hunting rifle, with some history and class.

[Doc Hudson]

Those rifles in that condition are thrashed, a master tool & die maker might be able to somehow salvage the action but it's highly unlikely, they are considered damaged beyond repair. If you need an action of that type, it's not too hard to find a "sporterized" ( bubbaized) Springfield at a gunshow and go from there.

I have to disagree somewhat with jnyork.

I think a master machinist would take a good luck at the action and say, "#@$$%+ it, it will be cheaper and easier for me to mill a new receiver and bolt."

But I do agree about it being cheaper and easier to find a sporterized rifle for a base,

[Malamute]

"I think a master machinist would take a good luck at the action and say, "#@$$%+ it, it will be cheaper and easier for me to mill a new receiver and bolt."


Why would that be?

My gunsmith cleaned up the front edge of the receiver nicely when he screwed the new barrel into it. Grinding the weld in the barrel to remove it from the receiver wasnt difficult, and he finished the cut with his lathe. I cut the bolt stop free with a dremel wheel, then cleaned up the area with a dremel sanding drum. Wasn't very hard to do.

I paid $30 for a complete replacement bolt, every part included, and still had all the spares (everything but the bolt body itself was fine) from the drill bolt, in excellent condition. So, $30 for the replacement bolt, and perhaps $20 to the gunsmith to clean up the front of the receiver when he installed the new barrel. I think I paid $30 or $40 for the receiver with junk barrel.


I would agree that a sportered gun would be simpler, but the drill rifles I've seen so far haven't been all that bad. All you can see from the outside when its done being rebuilt is a small discolored area around the bolt stop.

[awp101]

Thanks guys, I may take a flier on one just to see. Or I may come to my senses and look at the rest of the projects I already have lined up...

[Malamute]

How much are they asking for the drill rifles? That may be the main question.

As I said, I bought mine as parts, so was able to aquire the rest of the parts as I desired as far as condition and type.

[awp101]

$140+shipping IIRC.

The more I think about it, I just need to track down a complete small ring Mauser action and go forth. I already have a large ring that is going to be built into something else (someday...).

And another thought is to look at the show this weekend. There's a large parts vendor that shows up, he may be able to shed some light on the true condition of these rifles as well.

[Doc Hudson]

"I think a master machinist would take a good luck at the action and say, "#@$$%+ it, it will be cheaper and easier for me to mill a new receiver and bolt."


Why would that be?

My gunsmith cleaned up the front edge of the receiver nicely when he screwed the new barrel into it. Grinding the weld in the barrel to remove it from the receiver wasnt difficult, and he finished the cut with his lathe. I cut the bolt stop free with a dremel wheel, then cleaned up the area with a dremel sanding drum. Wasn't very hard to do.

I paid $30 for a complete replacement bolt, every part included, and still had all the spares (everything but the bolt body itself was fine) from the drill bolt, in excellent condition. So, $30 for the replacement bolt, and perhaps $20 to the gunsmith to clean up the front of the receiver when he installed the new barrel. I think I paid $30 or $40 for the receiver with junk barrel.


I would agree that a sportered gun would be simpler, but the drill rifles I've seen so far haven't been all that bad. All you can see from the outside when its done being rebuilt is a small discolored area around the bolt stop.

Apparently your Drill Rifle was not as well and truly deactivated as the ones I'v seen.

[awp101]

Went to the Market Hall show this morning and found my old gunsmith buddy. Asked him about the DPs and while he had no experience with them, he concurred with what I told him I had read.

Walked around and found a sporterized 03A3, tagged at $169. Stopped, looked 3 times to make sure I wasn't missing a digit somewhere. The seller's wife came over and asked if I needed help. I just looked up at her, pointed to the rifle and asked in my best deadpan "What's wrong with it?". Around here, even sporters have $500+ tags on them so my BS-meter was pegged. Looked it over while the seller finished up with another customer and found the left side of the receiver had a section about 1 to 1.25" long and maybe 3/8" tall milled out. It almost looked like a cutout for training purposes it was so beautifully milled. Passed on it and kept looking.

A few tables later I found another, this one tagged at $175! What? Have the Gunshow Gods taken pity on me? The barrel had been turned on a lathe to remove most of the step, d&t with a Redfield one piece base installed and converted to single shot. Again, my BS-meter was about to break the needle because of the price. The seller said he simply had too many rifles and he only used this one for cast bullet shooting. Everything looked good enough for my purposes and it had a really sweet trigger. Asked the seller what he would do on a cash sale and he offered $150. Told him I was 99% sure it was going to leave with me but I wanted to see the bore. Clean as I could want, so I made the deal. SCOREBOARD!

All I really wanted it for was the action but I'll shoot it as is and see what's what. Two things I can't figure out though: why would someone convert it to a single shot and why would they use it as a cast bullet shooter? I'm pretty sure the single shot procedure can be reversed and if it doesn't shoot as an 06 very well, it'll either become a .257 Roberts or .260 AAR conversion. SN is over 1 million so I have no qualms about shooting it.

And now, the pics:

[JerryB]

A fine looking 03, should be a shooter as is, good find.

[Chuck 100 yd]

The slot in the left side of the receiver is for the Pederson device.
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Rifles/pi ... pistol.htm

They are not that rare but I would not want to build a sporter on such a Receiver just because. I am sure it did not weaken the receiver any as far as practical shooting goes.

[awp101]

ARRRRGH! It was already sporterized but I was sure someone had pooched it and I didn't want to take a leap that it was nothing major...

I wonder if I can sneak back tomorrow?

[O.S.O.K.]

Check the serial number. If its one of the older ones that is questionable as to heat treating, that may very well be why its a cast boolit shooter.

[awp101]

It's in the 1.4 million range so I don't think it's an issue but I'll double check.

Just double checked and it's a 1933-34 production with nickle steel bolt as well. Also found the end of the muzzle end of the barrel is marked RA 5-44!

[Malamute]

Looks like you done good! That should be a good shooter and hunter for you.

I'm guessing that the one you looked at, and the one you bought are both 1903's, not 03-A3's. The 1903 was phased out in the early 1940's when wartime production was ramped up, and they changed them to make them simpler to produce. At that point the nomenclature was changed to 03-A3.

The other one you looked at sounds like it was a Mark 1. The Mark 1's with the Perterson device cutout are a WW1 period gun. The Peterson device was a gadget made to fire a 32 auto size round semi-automatically in the 1903's. It had a 20-some or 30 rd magazine that stuck out the right side of the rifle. The cutout in the side of the receiver was the ejection port. Someone posted a link about it. I don't know the serial number range of them, but if it's over the prescribed range, it shoud be fine to shoot.

[awp101]

Yes, according to the CMP link posted above they are safe since the ones with lower numbers were double heat treated but IIRC it was in the "high" range anyway.

The errands I have to run tomorrow may take a little longer than I had anticipated...

[Malamute]

A Mark 1 Springfield would be a cool piece of history to have for a shooter. I've seen a handful over the years.

[awp101]

Since what I know about 03's would fill a thimble (I can't tell you what makes an 03 different from an 03A3, etc. A little embarrassing... ), would the 1903s not have been brought up to 03A3 specs during the war and re-nomenclatured as 03A3s?

IIRC 1911s brought up to A1 specs were re-nomenclatured as 1911A1s, right?

[Alan Wood]

Since what I know about 03's would fill a thimble (I can't tell you what makes an 03 different from an 03A3, etc. A little embarrassing... ), would the 1903s not have been brought up to 03A3 specs during the war and re-nomenclatured as 03A3s?

IIRC 1911s brought up to A1 specs were re-nomenclatured as 1911A1s, right?

What I do know about this subject is this.

The 03a3's were built during the second world war. There recievers were the later not fragile versions as oppposed to the earlier fragile if too early versions. Further they had several cost reduction / production rate enhancement changes made to them. In short the 03a3 was built to be made as fast as safely possible. I suspect that if you will reread what has been said in this thread and the related one so far you will understand the one thing that can not be fixed. Specifically the heat treatment.

Sorry an early and hence unsafe 03 can't be fixed as far a I know.

[Pete44ru]

Low numbered Springfields have occasioally been re-heat treated (RF Sedgley did so), but was long given up because the results were now considered spotty, IIRC.

.

[Wind]

Hey there awp101 - Another thing, it looks like your new rifle is already drilled an tapped for a Lyman receiver sight. If you find you may "need" one I have one, and a brand new 03A3 four groove barrel and a SIX groove brand new barrel looking for a home. Nice find. Here is mine. Best regards. Wind

[Malamute]

Wind, PM sent.

[Wind]

Hey again awp101 - There is plenty of good information floating around here. John beard is a simply amazing source. Hope this helps. Wind

http://www.milsurps.com/forumdisplay.php?f=112

[Malamute]

The main differences between the 1903's and 03-A3's were stamped floorplate and trigger guard, stamped swivels/stock bands, stamped butt plate, and nose cap on the stock. They also did away with the barrel sight and went to a receiver sight. The stamped parts arent as nice looking as the milled parts, particulalry the trigger guard/floorplate. Many were changed out to milled when they were sporterized. The rear sight was an improvment tho, but isnt the best sight on a sporter, as it isnt easily adjustable for elevation other than for specific ranges. Zeroing was acomplished with the front sight height. Some changes came into use before the formal change in nomenclature. Stamped parts were being used before the sight change and formal model number change, for example.

Most of the 1903's and 03-A3's that I'm aware of were very well made guns, with the exception of the National Ordnance copies that used GI parts and spotty quality receivers and were sold later on the commercail market. Most of the 03's and 03-A3's were very good shooters. I've shot under 1" groups @ 100 yards with GI barrels in sporters (4 groove wartime production barrel), and shot a 1 1/4" group for 5 shots with an iron sighted GI 03-A3 in like new condition. The group was about 1/2" tall and 1 1/4" wide, in about a 20 MPH corsswind, rested over my motorcycle seat.

Can you tell I like the 1903's?

[awp101]

Thanks all for the info and links!

Because they are usually out of my price range, I've never studied up on the 1903s. Yesterday's find was truly out of the ordinary for shows around here. In fact it was so unusual I went back to try again today but no joy...

[Malamute]

I think you'll enjoy your rifle. If not, you shouldnt have any trouble selling it (Hint, hint), and make some on the deal.

[awp101]

I think you'll enjoy your rifle. If not, you shouldnt have any trouble selling it (Hint, hint)

I tried like the dickens to find that other one when I went back today! They weren't there so I suppose they sold all they had brought or needed to sell yesterday. The seller of the new to me 03 was still there today and had a slightly buggered 03 MkI. We never could get close enough on what he wanted vs what was in my pocket but he did tell me the reason both rifles had seen mainly cast bullets under his watch was because that's about all he shoots, period.

BTW, I pulled it from the stock earlier and the magwell has a single shot follower epoxied on place. Right now I'm trying to find pics of the magwell cutoff. Mine has the "on/off" selector that releases the bolt but that's the closest I can find to what's been described so far...EDIT: DISREGARD! The stock I have (Fajen I think) blocks the switch from going all the way down and lets it just act as a bolt release. DUH!

[Ysabel Kid]

$150!?! Do you feel guilty stealing that gun?!? Congrats!!!

[awp101]

$150!?! Do you feel guilty stealing that gun?!? Congrats!!!

As many hits as I've taken over the years? Not really...

[awp101]

A Rock Island in the 400K range should be good to go, right? And RIAs were only 03s, not 03A3s, right?

[Malamute]

Yes, a Rock Island 1903 in that serial range is good to go. I believe you are correct, Rock Island made 1903's, but didnt make any 03-A3's. The floorplate/trigger guard should be the better quality milled parts on a 1903 than on the 03-A3's, tho some of the late 1903's had stamped parts, and parts could have been swappped at any time over the intervening years.

To make it back into a repeater, it shouldnt be hard to find the needed parts. Take some pics of the parts disassembled if you want ideas on what you need.

I'd bet there's a way to remove the epoxy thats holding the single shot parts in place.

[awp101]

Thanks Malamute!

I'm actually looking at another receiver for another project, sorry if there was any confusion. This one is pretty stripped but it's a non-DP and there's a local place that has scads of parts for just about anything you can name. I need to do the math and see how everything adds up.

I may have to buy another floorplate, etc and inlet the stock for it on the singleshot. I'll have to double check but IIRC it's a different triggerguard assembly that's much narrower and the replacement stock was inlet to match.