Working on the Spencer - with Pics
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Please post political post in the new Politics forum.
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- Levergunner 3.0
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:53 pm
- Location: Surrey, England
Working on the Spencer - with Pics
I don't want a gun in my collection that I can't shoot so my modest winter project was to get my 1865 Spencer carbine into shooting condition.
First task was to slug the bore so I could order a mould and sizer die.
The Burnside contract Spencers have 3-groove rifling, which makes it tricky to measure the groove diameter because the grooves are diametrically opposite the lands. Not knowing a better way I drilled a half inch hole in a piece of rod and bored it out in small increments until the slug was a tight fit, then measured the hole with a bore mike.
There must be a better way?
Last week I was visiting our manufacturing plant in New York so I took the slug along and put it up on an optical comparator. My crude method said the bore was 0.515 and the comparator said it was 0.5153.
Next up was fitting the center-fire upper breech block. S&S Firearms claim their block will drop into 95% of Spencers with no alteration, but my gun was clearly in the other 5%. The block dropped in ok but the action would not close on it. Spencer's design is simple but it is very picky about fits and tolerances - it took me a lot of patience, a Dremel and a few curses to get to where the action cycled as smoothly as my old Winchester '73.
Sure, it drops in, but will it work?
I had heard that Spencers were ultra-sensitive to cartridge length and bullet ogive shape and I was about to find out. buffalo Arms told me that they were no longer able to export brass so their ready-made 56-50 brass was a non-starter. I scratched around to find a UK dealer with 50-70 Govt brass and finally found 50. I roughly cut them down with my Harbor Freight mini chop saw and trim to final length of 1.15in on a Forster trimmer. Inside reaming to 0.515in and a touch off the rim on the lathe and it's done.
My setup for making 56-50 brass from 50-70
I made up several sets of dummy cartridges in different lengths until I found what fed easily though the action. For my gun the optimum COL is 1.560in with the 375 grain bullet from a Buffalo Arms mould.
My feed-trial dummy shells,50-70 and 56-50 brass,375 grain bullets
Finally, something of major importance......
To avoid blowing your face off, replace the original round nose magazine
follower by a flat or cupped one.
Other than a light wipe with bronze wool and oil I have not touched the outside of the gun. It took 144 years to acquire that "experience" and I'm not about to polish it away.
Ready for the range
Just one more obstacle to surmount before I can get to the range. I live in the UK and hold the gun without a licence as an antique,obsolete caliber gun. As I now want to shoot it I have to apply to have it added to my firearms licence. I don't anticpate any problems but the wheels of officialdom don't turn very fast. While I am waiting I can cast up different hardness bullets and trim the rest of my cases but I can't actaully load any ammunition without risking prosecution.
Perry Owens
First task was to slug the bore so I could order a mould and sizer die.
The Burnside contract Spencers have 3-groove rifling, which makes it tricky to measure the groove diameter because the grooves are diametrically opposite the lands. Not knowing a better way I drilled a half inch hole in a piece of rod and bored it out in small increments until the slug was a tight fit, then measured the hole with a bore mike.
There must be a better way?
Last week I was visiting our manufacturing plant in New York so I took the slug along and put it up on an optical comparator. My crude method said the bore was 0.515 and the comparator said it was 0.5153.
Next up was fitting the center-fire upper breech block. S&S Firearms claim their block will drop into 95% of Spencers with no alteration, but my gun was clearly in the other 5%. The block dropped in ok but the action would not close on it. Spencer's design is simple but it is very picky about fits and tolerances - it took me a lot of patience, a Dremel and a few curses to get to where the action cycled as smoothly as my old Winchester '73.
Sure, it drops in, but will it work?
I had heard that Spencers were ultra-sensitive to cartridge length and bullet ogive shape and I was about to find out. buffalo Arms told me that they were no longer able to export brass so their ready-made 56-50 brass was a non-starter. I scratched around to find a UK dealer with 50-70 Govt brass and finally found 50. I roughly cut them down with my Harbor Freight mini chop saw and trim to final length of 1.15in on a Forster trimmer. Inside reaming to 0.515in and a touch off the rim on the lathe and it's done.
My setup for making 56-50 brass from 50-70
I made up several sets of dummy cartridges in different lengths until I found what fed easily though the action. For my gun the optimum COL is 1.560in with the 375 grain bullet from a Buffalo Arms mould.
My feed-trial dummy shells,50-70 and 56-50 brass,375 grain bullets
Finally, something of major importance......
To avoid blowing your face off, replace the original round nose magazine
follower by a flat or cupped one.
Other than a light wipe with bronze wool and oil I have not touched the outside of the gun. It took 144 years to acquire that "experience" and I'm not about to polish it away.
Ready for the range
Just one more obstacle to surmount before I can get to the range. I live in the UK and hold the gun without a licence as an antique,obsolete caliber gun. As I now want to shoot it I have to apply to have it added to my firearms licence. I don't anticpate any problems but the wheels of officialdom don't turn very fast. While I am waiting I can cast up different hardness bullets and trim the rest of my cases but I can't actaully load any ammunition without risking prosecution.
Perry Owens
Last edited by perry owens on Thu Dec 10, 2009 10:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate Watson."
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Outstanding!
But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8
- KirkD
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
I love these kind of posts. Excellent work. Keep us posted on further developments and shooting.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester.
Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Very nice! Keep us updated!
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- Advanced Levergunner
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- Location: Sweetwater, TX
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Perry: The Starline .56-50 brass is all ready to go. Can you find some over there? By the way, I fired some leftover Spencer handloads in a Swedish rolling block in 12X44 and they were amazingly accurate in spite of being so short for the chamber.
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- Levergunner 3.0
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:53 pm
- Location: Surrey, England
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Bill,
I am told the Starline cases are meant for the repro Spencers from Armi Sport and the rim diameter is too small for reliable ejection in an original. I can't check that because the few people over here who have repro Spencers have them in more easily available calibers. Once you get set up it's not hard to make them from 50-70 brass, probably cheaper too. It's now illegal to export any ammunition components from the USA without an export licence and that costs $250.
Perry Owens
I am told the Starline cases are meant for the repro Spencers from Armi Sport and the rim diameter is too small for reliable ejection in an original. I can't check that because the few people over here who have repro Spencers have them in more easily available calibers. Once you get set up it's not hard to make them from 50-70 brass, probably cheaper too. It's now illegal to export any ammunition components from the USA without an export licence and that costs $250.
Perry Owens
"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate Watson."
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Top class Perry, you doing that ole' gun proud, bet it has the bobbies scratching their heads
Nath.
Nath.
Psalm ch8.
Because I wish I could!
Because I wish I could!
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- Levergunner 3.0
- Posts: 559
- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:53 pm
- Location: Surrey, England
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Nath,
Not wrong there. My Firearms Officer is a 25 year old policewoman who knows as much about guns as I do about makeup. I drive her nuts switching antique guns on to and off my licence. Last time I renewed it she sent me two copies of the licence on two consecutive days and when I told her she asked me to shred one.
Perry Owens
Not wrong there. My Firearms Officer is a 25 year old policewoman who knows as much about guns as I do about makeup. I drive her nuts switching antique guns on to and off my licence. Last time I renewed it she sent me two copies of the licence on two consecutive days and when I told her she asked me to shred one.
Perry Owens
"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate Watson."
- 2ndovc
- Advanced Levergunner
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- Location: OH, South Shore of Lake Erie
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Outstanding stuff Mr. Owens!!
jb
jb
jasonB " Another Dirty Yankee"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
" Tomorrow the sun will rise. Who knows what the tide could bring?"
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
There's a method for measuring slugs from barrels with odd numbered grooves/lands on a V-block. My CRS has kicked in and this is about all I can remember but I'm sure the technique is out there somewhere.
The Spencers I've seen are heavy and much rougher than one would expect for a state of the art weapon for that time.
The Spencers I've seen are heavy and much rougher than one would expect for a state of the art weapon for that time.
Sincerely,
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Hobie
"We are all travelers in the wilderness of this world, and the best that we find in our travels is an honest friend." Robert Louis Stevenson
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
You have to make a little V adaptor. Take some metal that is about anywhere between 1/16 to 1/8 inch thick, cut it so it's 1 inch long and about 3/8 wide. Then bend it a perfect 90 deg in the middle. Now that outside V point....flile that so it's flat and level/square like the V can stand perfectly straight up on it. Don't file too close to the inside corner as you don't want to weaken it. Okay take a 30 caliber jacketed bullet if you have one. Mike it a few times to get an average. Let's say it mikes out exactly at .308. Okay now place the bullet in that V you just made and mike the two together. That flat part of the V you filed should rest against the stationary anvil of the mic and the moveable one against the bullet. Get an average. Now substract those two measurements you got...the bullet alone, then the bullet with the V tool. Okay...drive a slug thru your Brit barrel. Now measure it with the V tool like you did the jacketed bullet...EXCEPT make sure two rifling ridges touch the V 's legs, that is one rifling ridge on each leg of the V. That means a rifling ridge will be dead center for the anvil to rest against as you screw it in. Get an average and then substract the number that you got from when you did the other two measurements. Let's see if I can write that out. Jacketed bullet diameter equals .308, the measurement of the .308 bullet with the V in place equals say .323....you subtract the bullet diameter from that number .323 minus .308 equals .015. Okay now you measure the bore slug with the V and you get say .329. Substract that .015 from that . That would be .329 minus .015 equals .314...that would be your groove diameter for your Brit barrel.
Thanks to Starmetal from Cast Boolits
Thanks to Starmetal from Cast Boolits
- Borregos
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Interesting post, thanks Perry
Pete
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
Sometimes I wonder if it is worthwhile gnawing through the leather straps to get up in the morning..................
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- Levergunner 3.0
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Very nice project Mr. Perry.
To measure a slug like the ones you show, I would wrap a thin feeler gauge around the slug, measure, subtract twice the gauges thickness and Bob's your uncle.
Cat
To measure a slug like the ones you show, I would wrap a thin feeler gauge around the slug, measure, subtract twice the gauges thickness and Bob's your uncle.
Cat
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- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Well done!! Cool fun... Bringing the bark & bite back in an old gun.. I love those kinds of projects..
"IT IS MY OPINION, AND I AM CORRECT SO DON'T ARGUE, THE 99 SAVAGE IS THE FINEST RIFLE EVER MADE IN AMERICA."
WIL TERRY
WIL TERRY
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
+ 1KirkD wrote:I love these kind of posts. Excellent work. Keep us posted on further developments and shooting.
"Firearms officers", where do they find 'em ? Mine didn't want me to have a 30/30 because there are no Bears in England.
Whatever you do always give 100%........... unless you are donating blood.
- Ysabel Kid
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Great post Perry - thank you for sharing! I'm looking forward to the range reports as well. The wood to metal fit looks awesome on your Spencer. I can't see any wood shrinkage away from the metal. Is the wood stock original?
- kimwcook
- Advanced Levergunner
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Wow. Keep us informed, Perry. That's some cool stuff.
Old Law Dawg
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Outstanding!
Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
I just measured the rim diameter of Starline .56-50 Spencer brass at .630-inch. I believe that the original rim-fire cartridge had a rim of .645-inch. The .50-70 has a rim diameter of .660.
The replica Spencer carbines have the Lane extractor, which is in principle more forgiving of an undersized rim. The original 1865 carbines have the early blade type extractor, which may not be so tolerant.
The replica Spencer carbines have the Lane extractor, which is in principle more forgiving of an undersized rim. The original 1865 carbines have the early blade type extractor, which may not be so tolerant.
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- Levergunner 3.0
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- Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2007 7:53 pm
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Re: Working on the Spencer - with Pics
Ysabel Kid wrote
Perry Owens
It is as far as I can tell, but I'm no expert. There is a small sliver out of the left side of the fore-end in front of the barrel band that has worn smooth through handling. No cartouches on the stock but there is a number "12" stamped between the lower tang and the sling swivel. By the way, anyone know why Spencers had the single swivel? I have seen plenty of Spencer carbine slings that clip on to the ring but that's all.Great post Perry - thank you for sharing! I'm looking forward to the range reports as well. The wood to metal fit looks awesome on your Spencer. I can't see any wood shrinkage away from the metal. Is the wood stock original?
Perry Owens
"Always carry a firearm east of Aldgate Watson."