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This gives me the Heebee Geebee's. I've hunted Atoka a few times and killed a buck on a wildlife department draw hunt about 10 miles to the East of Atoka at McGee Creek. I HATE the thought of being out there with these cats and I'd like to make sure they all get a generous dose of lead. I don't know why the state decided to reintroduce them. They will lie to your face and tell you they had nothing to do with it. I guess I feel the same way you fellas up North feel bout them danged Wolves....
The area around Atoka is some of the most hilliest/mountainous regions of Oklahoma in the SE portion of the state. It's a hardwood/pine mix and some of it gets extremely thick. Thick enough you can't see 20 ft in front of you. I wont be going back without some variety of pistola in my hand.
"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men
shall possess the highest seats in Government,
our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots
to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams
JerryB wrote:I ain't on his soap box that he ain't on either but I don't know why any body would into town or into the hills without a sixgun.
Yeah, you're both right. Point taken. Especially with some of them SE Ok folk. They're probably nicer than a box full of kittens but some of em look danged surly.!..
"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men
shall possess the highest seats in Government,
our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots
to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams
In the last 7 days, we had two different Mountain Lion attacks here in Canada.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
I expect to find large kitty prints out here east of Guthrie too. This week I found a deer carcass that was drug down by a boat load of Coyotes or a big kitty.
When I was still in Michigan we "did not" have any large cats either... just ask the DNR. Out north of Midland we saw some very large kitty prints on more than one occasion... and several locals has seen some pretty large Cougar sized cats in the area.
always press the "red" button--- it's worth the effort and the results can be fun
Where I pack with horses, bear and cat are numerous. But, CAT always makes the hairs on my neck stand, just thinking about them. If a cat wants you,.. he will have you. The chances of getting away with out a scratch ( ) is nil to none.
If it has been seen a few times in the area go get him, we have the tools. One of your tree stands and squeal every ten minutes, I would love a try. I love puddy tats me
Nath.
Last edited by Nath on Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Why would you assume that the state introduced them. They've been making their way east for a while now and have been showing up randomly all over the place. I've worked with the virginia deparment of game and inland fisheries on different projects before and I very highly doubt that state game departments secretly introduce animals. I know its fun to come up with conspiracy theories, and I have plenty, but this ain't one of them.
FLINT wrote:Why would you assume that the state introduced them. They've been making their way east for a while now and have been showing up randomly all over the place. I've worked with the virginia deparment of game and inland fisheries on different projects before and I very highly doubt that state game departments secretly introduce animals. I know its fun to come up with conspiracy theories, and I have plenty, but this ain't one of them.
I found a newspaper article once from another state that referenced the Oklahoma Wildlife Department trading Rio Grande turkeys for Mountain lions with one of the Western states. I don't remember the state and I can't find the article now of course, but I'm suspicious. All of a sudden about 10 years ago "we" went from an occasional sighting by drunk Uncle Joe @ 2:00 A.M. to reputable folks across the state reporting them. They couldn't have populated the entire state as fast as they have without help. The OWD knows they're here because some of them are reported to be wearing collars.
"If ever a time should come, when vain and aspiring men
shall possess the highest seats in Government,
our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots
to prevent its ruin." Samuel Adams
If y'all ever watch National Geographic, or those type of channels, the "experts" say the cats' range stops east of Colorado. There aren't supposed to be any cougars in OK, or TX, or LA, or FL,...etc. Funny thing is, people see 'em all the time. My uncle has even seen a black one on our lease in central TX, and I swear I saw it one night right at dusk. Oh, and black mountain lions don't exist either, so if you see one it must just be your imagination. I guess the occasional black Jaguar could wander up from Mexico, but Gatesville, TX is a far piece for one to wander.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
While I don't think a state wildlife department would secretly introduce any species, I'm sure that they will deny that any exist in their state and the reason is this. If a state wildlife/game department officially recognizes that an actual breeding population of some species like a mtn. lion exist within their state, then they get lots of new responsibilities that they don't have the time, manpower, or money to handle. Some groups would demand that mtn. lions be immediately protected, other groups would demand that a hunting season be opened immediately, and maybe another group might demand that they be protected long enough so that eventually there could be a hunting season opened for them. So unless there is overwhelming proof, then I can imagine they would deny it for as long as possible.
Nephew has 1000 acres(920 wooded) 3 miles from me.Swears he has seen two mountain lions at dusk at edge of his field trying to stalk 4 deer.He said they were not bobcats and had LONG tails.We have many sightings here buy very reliable people! ???
They did it, they won't admit it now, but they did it. The purpose was to help curb a over-population of deer in certain areas of the state. It is having problems because the cats have found out that baby calves are easier to catch and kill than deer.
My cuz had several calves killed several years ago by mountain lions. The state game warden denied that a cat killed the calves, or even that the cats existed in OK, in the face of several of my relatives AFTER the spore of two different cats had been IDed by a college professor of wildlife. Cuz was then told that if it was cats he'd be in big touble if he shot them. This entire incident made state wide television news. We now have a new game warden.
About 2 months after this happened my Dad pulled into my Grandmother's yard and saw two mountain lions stalking my Grandmother while she was hanging out laundry. This is about 20 miles from my cuz'es place.
They screwed up and don't want to admit it because they'll have to pay for damages the cats cause.
Rob
Proud to be Christian American and not ashamed of being white.
May your rifle always shoot straight, your mag never run dry, you always have one more round than you have adversaries, and your good mate always be there to watch your back.
Because I can!
Never grow a wishbone where a backbone ought to be.
Well, even though they're not supposed to be in TX, even though everyone in TX including the game wardens knows they're here, all you have to do when you kill one is call Texas Parks and Wildlife and report the kill and where you killed it. That's it. Mountain Lions used to range all over the U.S. according to experts, but now have been reduced to the western states from the Rockies to the Pacific. The only eastern state that a cougar population is officially recognized is in Florida.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
I have neighbor whom I believe is honest, and he swears he saw a couger twice this past summer, here in southern WV. As to the DNR conspiracies, I know our DNR just does not have the funding or the manpower. They have been blamed for coyotes, diamondbacks, spotted skunks and now cougers.
fatoldfool wrote:I have neighbor whom I believe is honest, and he swears he saw a couger twice this past summer, here in southern WV. As to the DNR conspiracies, I know our DNR just does not have the funding or the manpower. They have been blamed for coyotes, diamondbacks, spotted skunks and now cougers.
... and probably H1N1 too.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
shooter in Roswell,
we have a big black cat here in the Sacramentos,
near as I can figure, it has a LARGE range and seems to be on a 28 day cycle.
Thought I was going to have to kill it, but I have heard of no depravation, and I would hear of it.
I will not intervene, as long as the status quo is maintained.
I've got a friend in Roswell who was raised on a ranch outside Las Cruces. He's the best outdoorsman I've ever personally met, and a really neat guy to boot. He said they used to have black cats come up from Mexico every once in a while. Probably a Jaguar rather than a Mountain Lion, but you never know. After reading this thread I did a little research to see if my memory served me correctly on Cougars. They all said black Mountain Lions don't exist because one has never been killed or videoed clearly enough to prove it. I just think there's some things that happen out in the wild that most biologists just don't get to see, or they discount it if it goes against what they believe to be true.
BTW, I'm not in Roswell anymore, I made the move back to TX about a year ago with the new missus. Guess I just forgot to update the info. Haven't posted on the board in a good while.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
Jaguar's (which can be black) have been officially trapped and reported within the last year or so in Arizona I believe by the state game folks. If I remember correctly, their intention was to trap mtn. lions, but got a surprise
We have a very large population of cats here where I live, just a few miles from Mt St Helens. Seen a few over the years out the kitchen window but normally just see tracks when out in the woods. Not something I ever worry about as I usually have a heavy sixgun with me and it the wife is along having an extra rifle along make her more comfortable as we see quite a few bears during the summer.
That being said, not much a lone feller can do it a kitty drops onto him from a limb or from up above. Just going to be a heckuva tussle until someone comes out a winner....
2x22
"Yes, we did produce a near-perfect republic. But will they keep it? Or will they, in the enjoyment of plenty, lose the memory of freedom? Material abundance without character is the path of destruction." - Thomas Jefferson
This is getting off topic a little bit, but what has continually surprised me while growing up in Illinois and now living in Indiana for the past 15 years are the rumors and stories of "large black cat" sightings, not cougar or mountain lion sightings, but "large black cats".
I've got a friend in Roswell who was raised on a ranch outside Las Cruces. He's the best outdoorsman I've ever personally met, and a really neat guy to boot. He said they used to have black cats come up from Mexico every once in a while. Probably a Jaguar rather than a Mountain Lion, but you never know. After reading this thread I did a little research to see if my memory served me correctly on Cougars. They all said black Mountain Lions don't exist because one has never been killed or videoed clearly enough to prove it. I just think there's some things that happen out in the wild that most biologists just don't get to see, or they discount it if it goes against what they believe to be true.
BTW, I'm not in Roswell anymore, I made the move back to TX about a year ago with the new missus. Guess I just forgot to update the info. Haven't posted on the board in a good while.
nemhed wrote:This is getting off topic a little bit, but what has continually surprised me while growing up in Illinois and now living in Indiana for the past 15 years are the rumors and stories of "large black cat" sightings, not cougar or mountain lion sightings, but "large black cats".
Not all that far off topic. And I believe that a lot of the "large black cat" sightings are probably the results of someone not having the proper perspective on a feral or house cat. There are a LOT of "large black" house cats around and if someone doesn't have a good object to compare it too then it'd be very easy to think you saw something different from what you did. NOW, that being said - in the SW USA I'd not be surprised to hear of folks coming across a "large black cat" that really WAS a "big cat" of the jaguar family.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
And what research would that be? I am just relating info I have read on several sites of different wildlife and other organizations. I will look them up again and repost if you'd like. I don't expect anyone to take what I say as gospel, and if it turns out I'm wrong, so be it. All it means is that I got bad info from the articles and such that I have read. All you have to do is tell me where you think I'm wrong and I will research that topic further.
Last edited by shooter on Thu Jan 07, 2010 2:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
shooter wrote:If you'll notice, I took off the last part of my original post. After thinking about it I decided that wasn't the way to go. It was a knee jerk reaction, and after reading your post several times I don't really know what you're referring to, so I removed it hoping you would respond in a manner other than what you did. Obviously you replied before my edit.
I have read the other posts and the "defensive" attitudes you are referring to. I tend to side with a lot of the other people in those discussions, which is why my initial reaction was what it was. Whether intentional or not, a lot of your comments I have seen are very abrasive, and that tends to rub folks the wrong way. You may be right some of the time, or wrong some of the time as everyone is, but the WAY something is said often times goes a lot further than what is actually said.
You sound like a honest down to earth guy, Shooter. But I need to get sucked into another battle of whits this week, like I need another hole in my head. Like I said,... I'll pass.
I will say this,.... when I stated I had sighted a Panther in the Chiricahuas, I was corrected and educated about Malenistic Cougars by a member here. If he wishes to continue your education as he did mine, I'm sure he'll chime in.
AmBraCol wrote:Not all that far off topic. And I believe that a lot of the "large black cat" sightings are probably the results of someone not having the proper perspective on a feral or house cat. There are a LOT of "large black" house cats around and if someone doesn't have a good object to compare it too then it'd be very easy to think you saw something different from what you did. NOW, that being said - in the SW USA I'd not be surprised to hear of folks coming across a "large black cat" that really WAS a "big cat" of the jaguar family.
My uncle sighted the black cat on our place in broad daylight. He said it definitely wasn't a housecat, and was the size of a mountain lion. Whether it was a Jaguar or not, I don't know, but I would think that would be a little far north for a Jaguar. I know they used inhabit most of Texas, and have been sighted more commonly in the SW as of late, so that may have been what it was. There have also been two other sightings of cats on our place near Waco, TX. One was of a run of the mill cougar, which was tan in color, by my cousin. The other I saw running at night. It was too dark for me to tell the color for sure.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
Thanks 76/444, I try to be for the most part. I do get my feathers ruffled every once in a while, but try not to let it get the best of me.
I wish you'd have just said that about the melanin in the first place. I have never discounted the idea of a black cougar, but all the scientists I have heard/read say it's not possible. It's actually a topic I've been interested in for a while, but most people I meet don't care enough about it to know much, which is why I got interested in this thread to begin with. I can easily see how a melanistic genetic mutation could make cougars black, just like jaguars, but not many people I can find tend to agree.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
There is a good book called Borderland Jaguars that has many pictures of kitties in Az and Old Mexico if you are interested in cats other than Mt Lions.
As to Mt Lions not being in Texas that is BS, they still have goverment hunters working in the Sanderson area. A Mt Lion was killed on the ranch I hunt on near Sanderson a few years back and I have talked with the gov hunter while I was deer hunting there a few years back. On the same ranch this past December a hunter was stalked by a My Lion and the hunter shot it. The wounded kitty headed into some heavy brush and a couple of guys went in with pistold to find it. They didn't which is too bad if that cat is alive. If it is it is certain to be a problem cat going forward.
I have been lucky, I have seen 5 Mt Lions in the wild. The last one ran across the road in front of my jeep. My son says "what was that?" I stopped and ran to the side of the road and there was a young female 35 feet down the embankment. We looked at each other for a few moments and she casually walks away looking back once. That cat was in New Mexico at 7,500 elevation. I saw another a couple of miles away the year before in the middle of the day crossing the road and a third at dusk at 10,000 feet again in New Mexico. I saw two in California, one in the San francisco Bay Area on a ranch I was managing, again a road crossing at dusk. The first one I saw was way up north in California near the Mad River. I was headed back to camp after dark on a deer hunt and I saw it come down an embankent next to the road. We stopped and looked at each other and it turned around and walked back the way it came. He was a big boy and was clearly hunting. I was seeing a lot of fawns in the area.
The way I see it is if a Mt Lion wants to make lunch out of you he probably will before you know it. However there are those times such as the incident last December in Sanderson where being armed made all the difference.
Another book on lion attacks that is pretty good is The Beast In the Garden. The book covers the Mt Lion problem in the Boulder CO area in an Un-sensational manner and gives you a good idea as to what is happening.
Thanks BwanaDave. I'll have to check those out. As far as Mt. Lions being in TX, everyone knows they're here. Texas Parks and Wildlife knows they're here, they just don't know how many. I was reading on some of the sites I looked at earlier, and they say that there is no evidence of a "breeding population" in any state east of the Rockies. I believe that is BS, also. I believe that about a lot of the stuff I've read on those sites. That's what got me started thinking. I've seen them in TX. I know others that have seen them in TX and OK. I just don't think that cats in VA or WV or other Southeastern states could likely be transients. I would think there had to be a breeding population.
We have a government hunter that works our place, too. He's there mainly for hogs, and I haven't got a chance to talk to him about the cats yet. I don't agree with his methods. There have been a few deer that had to be released from his snares, and I think a couple more that weren't gotten to in time. Don't know how many deer he's hauled away that he's got to before us. They make the snares that will catch a pig but not a deer.
"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen" - Samuel Adams
Well,
Lets not let emotionalism overtake the conversation.
I cut sign by an old reliable water source.
This is NO feral housecat.
It is big,
it is heavy,
and, it is behaving itself.
No livestock depradation I can detect.
We will see.
mescalero1 wrote:Well,
Lets not let emotionalism overtake the conversation.
I cut sign by an old reliable water source.
This is NO feral housecat.
It is big,
it is heavy,
and, it is behaving itself.
No livestock depradation I can detect.
We will see.
I don't doubt your word or your observations. What I DO doubt is when city folk claim to see things that simply aren't there. And you're not city folk. The kitty tracks I saw in MO years back aren't supposed to be there. I didn't think to take pics of the two separate sizes of tracks, momma and kitten - breeding population for sure no matter what the DOW might say. Oregon is now overrun with cats - cougars to be specific. And as a result there is a very low deer population in many places. One ridge near a friend's place produced 7 cats one year. That's SERIOUS crowding by cougar standards. I think it's neat to see the cats coming back - I'd rather not see them as thick as they are in some places as I like to see other game as well. I hope you have fun with your local resident. They are definitely different from the cougar in many respects although the sertanejos I grew up around had only one word for both species - "onça" (ohn-suh), differentiating between them as "onça pintada", "onça amarela" and "onça preta" (painted, yellow and black). The painted variety (regular spotted jaguar) had a reputation as a stock killer. The black was not as well known in our area and the yellow is what seemed to get whacked most often. This area was right between the Atlantic and Amazon rain forests. Some friends of mine settled the hash for one yellow cat that was attacking their goats. They did it with machetes.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
I think, ( and I know it is fallacy to assign homo sapien characteristics ) to the animal kingdom.
This one knows it is on the edge.
That is why, I have never seen it.
mescalero1 wrote:I think, ( and I know it is fallacy to assign homo sapien characteristics ) to the animal kingdom.
This one knows it is on the edge.
That is why, I have never seen it.
And I agree we should be wary of assigning human characteristics to critters - but they have their own instincts and awareness. Like an old buck I KNOW was in the patch of woods just south of us in '98 - but NO ONE in the area EVER got a glimpse of him, just the tracks which outsized ANYTHING else in the woods. Deer don't reach that size by being stupid. And that cat knows how to handle himself or he'd be SSS'd by some local rancher just in case. Have you found any hair or other such sign? It'd be interesting to know what color phase it is.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
mescalero1 wrote:Dogs drug up two front deer legs the other day,
The pup also drug up a red tailed hawk,
do eagles kill hawks?
That's a good question. And I do not know. It wouldn't surprise me, especially if the hawk happened to be scavenging an eagle kill. Many predators will kill another predator that is infringing their territory or messing with their kills.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
shooter wrote:I was reading on some of the sites I looked at earlier, and they say that there is no evidence of a "breeding population" in any state east of the Rockies. I believe that is BS, also. I believe that about a lot of the stuff I've read on those sites. That's what got me started thinking. I've seen them in TX. I know others that have seen them in TX and OK. I just don't think that cats in VA or WV or other Southeastern states could likely be transients. I would think there had to be a breeding population.
I've seen momma and kitten tracks together in the Ozarks - that's east of the Rockies by a good piece. And if a nursing mother is not an indication of a "breeding population" - then what IS? And the likelihood of there only being ONE in the state is very low. They are a secretive beast by nature so it's no surprise that so few folks actually see them. When they start showing up regularly then you've got a crowded area that needs some hunting done. And as more and more states ban hunting with dogs we'll have more and more problems with excess big cats.
Paul - in Pereira
"He is the best friend of American liberty who is most sincere and active in promoting true and undefiled religion." -- John Witherspoon
And I believe that a lot of the "large black cat" sightings are probably the results of someone not having the proper perspective on a feral or house cat. There are a LOT of "large black" house cats around and if someone doesn't have a good object to compare it too then it'd be very easy to think you saw something different from what you did. NOW, that being said - in the SW USA I'd not be surprised to hear of folks coming across a "large black cat" that really WAS a "big cat" of the jaguar family.