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Ysabel Kid wrote:Alphawolf45 - I was reading the other day that many of John Browning's firearm patents were never built by any gun company. Did you ever consider dusting one of these off and trying to build such a gun?
Guys, again I appreciate all the compliments.. Means a lot to me that some of you think they are good enough to comment on.
There are several hobby gun building groups . Heres a big one http://www.prexis.com/sten/homebuilder/index.php
and note what they like to build, primarily build "kit" military type arms.
. https://www.apexgunparts.com/
.. They buy stuff like an ATF torch cut ak-47 from an importer and supply a new receiver and barrel and put it together in a weekend....Results in purty guns and the guys are having fun- God Bless'em- but I dont quite relate..I dont fit in real well on sites like that.
Just a very few guys out there on the net like to build vintage arms from barstock as you see Charlie and myself and CStol and some few others....Which explains why I like showing my projects to you fellows who like these sorts of guns..
.... I am still getting my skills together, learn something or two good things with each build..Not any sort of expert yet...I am a pretty good machinist but if I have to work without an example to copy and without blueprints then its quite a good challenge ..Itd be tough building from just one of Brownings patents..Would have to be highly motivated...... I might someday build that first version of the singleshot rifle that Browning and his brothers manufactured themselves before Winchester bought the rights to the 1885 and changed it.. I didnt know he had other patented designs that had not been manufactured....Sounds fascinating YsabelKid, thanks for the heads up, I'll do a hunt, see what I can find..
I'll look for the article. I was just amazed that Winchester bought some of the Browning patents with no intention of ever building the gun; they just want anyone else building it either. I think Ol' John Moses caught on, and started demanding royalties or a higher up-front price on the patent. IIRC, FN made the Browning A-5 shotgun because Winchester wasn't interested in doing so.
Finding a neat, historic design (non-military) would be fun, but it would be a big challenge!
I remember being very impressed months ago with your first efforts at gunbuilding but now seeing your subsequent work all I can say is.......speechless! Keep it up - you have breathtaking skills and talent!
Winchester M94 30-30 (1980)
Winchester M70 Westerner 30-06 (1982)
Winchester M1 Garand (1942)
Too many others to list - hope to add more levers soon.
win7094M1 wrote:I remember being very impressed months ago with your first efforts at gunbuilding but now seeing your subsequent work all I can say is.......speechless! Keep it up - you have breathtaking skills and talent!
Metalsworking is a fantastic hobby and fooling with guns is heaps of fun... Currently I am building for myself several Winchester 1873s.. I have original receivers and a few other original pieces that am pulling measurements from .Wont be making all the parts this time, giving myself 5 new rifles if I dont quit before I am done..One each in .22 rimfire, .32-20 , .45 Colt , .38 Special and one possibly as a .22 magnum rimfire......Uhmmmmm..I have never seen a Winchester 1873 in person.. You gotta figure I'll for sure know that gun real well by time I finish.. I am two months into it and will be some months before I finish the first one... I am a bit farther along than shown in this picture , but this picture does show what I am working with..Old stuff...Wont try to build works of art but going for good reliable guns that hit what I aim at.
I'll post some pictures in next few days.. Yes Allen Wood ,I've roughed out a couple lower tangs..And not shown but have the levers and all the carrier lift levers all roughed out and most of the bolts made.And have milled 3 round barrel blanks into tapered octagons and threaded and fit them to the receivers......Working on the carriers now and ready to mill hammers and the sidecovers and have the material in to make the toggle links..I am poised and ready to finish some parts but seriously I poke along and dont get in any real big hurry and its gonna take lot of months to finish all 5 if I get that far.......
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I dont hunt anymore but thinking about eventually using a .22 1873 to threaten a few local tree rats......And might use the .45Colt 1873 to try some cowboy action shooting..I think they will be fun guns to play with a bit.. I dunno..
Alphawolf
You might want to start a new thread for these builds. I think that more people here will find this interesting than the response to your recent post suggests. Thing is that on this forum when a thread get's made a sticky it tends to get overlooked by many and go idle. I suspect that many maybe even most members haven't noticed it.
Alan Wood
Alan Wood
I may do as you suggest and start a new thread but much later after I have real progress to show... If I have my way with it I will finish the first one -an 1873 in .22LR for my birthday in early december...............If I had the money and if guns were my primary hobby I'd treat myself to new guns from local gun dealer. Instead I am hardcore metalsworking enthusiast and secondarily I love the antique rifles and so here I am building for myself guns that normal people would just go out and buy....Look at this group. I am two months and 700.00 into this project and will be 8 or 10 more months of my free time to finish the last one..
And here is build example from yesterday..See the work involved to create the rectangular pocket in the brass carrier for the carrier lift lever...Every little thing takes thought , planning and setups.
Now that is an interesting photo right there. Is that some variant of broaching that I am not familiar with? Certainly doesn't look like any broach I have ever seen or heard of. Even less like any other method I have heard of.
More like a sharp chisel cutting across the grain of wood..Brass is nice stuff to work...Cuts clean and cuts straight as long as you get the right sized bite.. About .006 seemed right for my project..Much more than that and she was too much to press/cleave thru by hand on the quill feed lever...And if going for small bite of just a few thousanths the cutter has tendacy to break out of the cut.......Aww hey it works easy. You can easy figure it out on the go on your first try. Nothing to it. Heres another view.Cutter is a square .250 HSS lathe bit set into a piece of 5/8 cold rolled.... I did 4 of these holes in cartridge carriers in 'bout 15 minutes after drilling the starter holes..
Yesterday I turned threads on a round .22 barrel blank and fit it to the last receiver..Cut that barrel to 16.25 inchs long for a trapper carbine configuration.Then I took a good used 20 inch tubular magazine and cut it down inside and out to work with the 16 inch barrel....Made a stainless steel follower for it while I was at it..I gotta say that fooling with gun projects is pretty satisfying, lot of fun.. Such that I try to get my machinist friends interested but no takers yet. Weird huh?
I see. As always know the material and adapt acordingly. That 22 sounds further along than I would have thought from prior posts. In a way I can understand the machinists. Before I got into computer programming as a career I did a lot of programming as a hobby. After well programming is about the last thing I want to do after work.
Doesn't help that lately I have been getting off work at 11pm or later.
Charlie wrote:AW, you are a "Master" in your "Color Case Hardening".
I mean it just makes me smile to see your work.
I'm gonna do another Highwall some day, and I'll do it in steel.
When I do, I'm gonna bug ye for your trade secrets to Color Harden it.
Charlie, I dont know any secrets to colorcasehardening.. Sometimes I like what it looks like when taking it from the quench tank and sometimes it aint so purty...Primarily however I am doing it for its case hardening properties. I build using low carbon steel that dings and scratches easily in its natural state but after colorcasehardening I can bash it about and drop it on concrete and she'll generally withstand the rough treatment...These 5 Winchesters I am building will all get that CCH treatment in order to impart that duable quality to the receivers but then afterwards a couple will get rust blued for appearances sake..
Hey, I dont remember you building a highwall ? ? ? Where are those pictures at? ..
Ohh yeah I like that one Charlie.Its got rugged good looks going for it. I like how the grips end in a radius at the top rather than into a square shoulder.. Lots of nice contour work on that gun... Hell for stout and has that old timey look to it..Yeah that is sweet...No I dont think I had seen that one..Youre keeping busy aint'chu? Thanks for showing it...
Nice looking pistol there Charlie! I am however curios as to what the thing extending in front of the reciever below the barrel and the two things on the left side of the reciever are for though.
This is one of the best and most fascinating threads I've seen in a long time. It makes me wish I was a machinist and metal worker, but there are only so many things a fellow can really excel in in a life time before the time is up. Keep those progress photos coming!
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
Alphawolf,
I have an 1873 rimfire that is complete except for
side plates
bullet tube
bullet tube internals
IT looks to me like it would aid you immensly in your endeavor, perhaps we can work something out.
mescalero2 wrote:Alphawolf,
I have an 1873 rimfire that is complete except for
side plates
bullet tube
bullet tube internals
IT looks to me like it would aid you immensly in your endeavor, perhaps we can work something out.
Hello Mescalero...In fact the .22 version of the 1873 is the tough one to build.. But I am now past the point where it would have helped to have a 'real one' to copy...And incidently I am using modern .22 tubular magazines and not trying to replicate the authentic tube....I would have built authentic if I'd had a real one to copy but its too late now, I've got that end done and I dont back up for nuthin.....I am working on the .22 breechpin this week...Geeebus thats tough working just from pictures off the internet but I 'bout have it whooped..
These 5 rifles will be last gun projects I do as I have other projects too long ignored..But these are the guns I been wanting all along. The first one I am finishing is a .22 trapper carbine with a 16 inch barrel..I anticipate it will be my favorite plinker ever... There's sure a lot of little parts in one of these 1873s..I'll be into middle of next summer to get the last one of these 5 done..
Pete44ru wrote:Fer your NEXT attempt = you can enlarge a few measurements, and do one up in .22 Mag !
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Oops rats...Lost my post..Well anyway..Hehhehh Pete the model 1892 has weak breechblock and cannot handle even high velocty .22long rifles...I made this breech block from A-2 toolsteel hardened and tempered ,,,,might get away with shooting high velocity ammo thru it but bumping it up to .22 magnum prolly be testing the big bang theory..I dunno..
See what this one looked like in its early stages of being machined-It so much work to build one that I dont change up from the originals much..Naw basicly I like to copy original antique guns.
The .22 Magnum and the .22 L.R. are loaded to the same pressure.
To show I have made some progress on one of the 5 Winchesters.
Still lacking hammer and trigger and mainspring but toggle links and most all else are there..
This .22 carbine trapper will get the finish that appeals to me which is to try to make it look as if it were built in 1880 and has seen lots of use and somewhat abused.. I carved the stock of straight grained walnut as was the originals and am giving it a dark finish.. I will colorcaseharden all the receiver, lever and hammer but then buff off some of it till the new shine is all gone.....The barrel and tubular magazine are obviously not correct but I am building this one as a beat about plinker and it only has to suit my modest needs for yet another plinker.......
To further explain-- I am working without plans or a real 1873 to copy...Rather difficult project for me,figgering this stuff out as I go ....So I chose this .22 to finish first and at the same time allowing myself every concession in order to expedite the completion of this first 1873 that is serving as trial run before I get serious and finish the other four.....The receiver I am using with this one should not have been used ,it was so badly rusted and the receiver was -at the factory- drilled and tapped crooked for the barrel...I've reworked it ..But not so well that I could put a mirror finish on the metal and pretend its a new gun..Better to give it a sensible 'old' finish and use it like the tool that it is.... I like it.
Will you make any of the CAS type guns short stroke. Seems a pity to pass up on the opportunity if you are doing all the parts from scratch anyway. While you are at it, you will need a lever shotgun also!
TomD wrote:Will you make any of the CAS type guns short stroke. Seems a pity to pass up on the opportunity if you are doing all the parts from scratch anyway. While you are at it, you will need a lever shotgun also!
Very impressive work!
TomD
Friend I am flirting with the idea to have a try at Cowboy action shooting but reality is that it aint something that is ever gonna get hold of me.. I am not so much into guns as I am into metalsworking and authentic antiques. ..No justification for a short stroke kit for me..
These are the last guns I am gonna build. I have a couple others started that I might finish someday but that would be years from now if I do it..After I finish these 5 Winchesters - about the middle of next year- I am gonna build a gas engine..My current fantasy is that I will build a boat and motor and do a cruise down the Mississippi river...I am digging up information to help me build a 1905 era 5hp two cylinder , 2 stroke, water cooled inboard boat motor..Something like that in a 20 foot wooden launch would satisfy my ambitions for a while.
Hello Guys...I read on this forum almost daily but I generally dont use a gun enough to have anything intelligent to contribute...You guys intimidate me quite a bit......anyway.anyway....
Here a year later I finally finished the Winchester 1873 .22 cal trapper length carbine....While it wont fool anybody to thinking its original, it sure is a sweet little gun..Good little shooter.. and I am proud what I was able to accomplish by welding up the deeply pocked,heavily rusted old receiver. The colorcasehardening hides several little pits I didnt eliminate. ...I did not make the trigger and sear nor couple of the smaller springs but I made all the other little parts including the cartridge lift and the toggle links..
Still have 4 more of these 1873s to finish ..And couple Winchester 1892s to build and recently got a pair of empty Marlin 1893 receivers to use as foundation of more projects...Plus 5 winchester 1885s and a Borchardt to finish...Altogether I have more started than I can finish in this lifetime....building ones own toys = addictive hobby ..
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Problem is I think that gun is illegal?
Home made guns are illegal whether it is a copy or not??????(even the receiver is homemade)
To do so believe you would have to have a legit guns mfg corp w traceable s/n's and follow all firearm rules or Mr. ATF might be calling!
Otherwise,everyone and anyone(but really most don't have that talent including me)would just make guns though maybe much more crude I expect.
Check with powers to be??????????
Last edited by madman4570 on Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
Because I Can, and Have
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USAF-72-76
God Bless America.
Disclaimer, not responsible for anyone copying or building anything i make.
Always consult an expert first.
Problem is I think that gun is illegal?
Home made guns are illegal whether it is a copy or not??????(even the receiver is homemade)
To do so believe you would have to have a legit guns mfg corp w traceable s/n's and follow all firearm rules or Mr. ATF might be calling!
Otherwise,everyone and anyone(but really most don't have that talent including me)would just make guns though maybe much more crude I expect.
Check with powers to be??????????
Nothing illegal about building a gun (so long as it isnt full auto). The law allows a certain number to be done for personal use each year. No serial number needed on personal guns either, so far as I know of, but selling one, it is supposed to have one. You can sell a gun you built for personal use, but are not supposed to be making a business of it. There was a vogue of building Kalashnikovs from parts kits and receiver flats (a flat is not a "gun" and doesnt have a serial number or paperwork). The info was widely available about legality. Perfectly legal for personal use, just not to do as a business to sell them.
Outstanding work on your rifles Alphawolf. Thanks for sharing them with us.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs even though checkered by failure, than to rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy nor suffer much because they live in the gray twilight that knows neither victory nor defeat." -Theodore Roosevelt-
Isnt it amazing how many people post without reading the thread?
Always learn something on here.
So if times get bad my BIL(master machinist from IR Corp and he does love guns too can make a bunch)
Cool! (even Single Shot ones would be cool)
Its a good hobby. .Cannot build or rebuild guns to sell without having proper license.. But with certain definite restrictions you can build guns for yourself......Hey..Guns are cheap. I can easily buy a better gun than I can build...But while its still legal I am having fun with the metals working aspect of it.. No way would I sell any of these that I have devoted hundreds of hours of my time into..
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Go online looking and you can find thousands of hobbiests building guns. Probably the majority build semi-autos from parts kits- AR-15s and Ruger 10-22s and Colt 1911s..........Not very many build replicas of antique cartridge guns from barstock .Which is the only reason I show these here since you fellows like the old guns...There would be more persons who appreciate old type guns here than on one of the big hobby gunsmithing forums......'course then I have to contend with the guys who think what I am doing is illegal....I appreciate those that jump in and tell the truth of it.
This was the first I seen of this thread and I stand in awe of such magnificent work. I am lucky just to spin a bushing on the lathe in an old four jaw chuck lathe that is older than the hills.
Alphawolf45, as others have said, your work is stunning. Wish I had as much talent as you have in your little finger.
I know that you are probably working with better, higher tolerance machines than the old gun manufactors had when they were building guns in the 1860's. It often makes me wonder how much more/better craftsmanship those fellows could have done had they had the equipment that is used today. Today they don't seem to worry about the quality of craftsmanship like they did back then... Take marlin for example, Change of manufactoring, change of craftsman and now they are junk.
"Go online looking and you can find thousands of hobbiests building guns. Probably the majority build semi-autos from parts kits- AR-15s and Ruger 10-22s and Colt 1911s.........." Those fellows are more like assembliers and finishers than builders. LOL
I would like to try case hardening someday, the charcoal, bone and oil process, but doubt I will ever get that far to do any recievers.
Keep us posted with your pictures of progress... They are things of beauty.
(discloser) Not a gunsmith, just a tinkerer at heart, it gets me into trouble, When I take it apart...
Alphawolf45 wrote:Okay and here is my .38-55 Highwall that I just now finished..Well it hasnt got sights yet.. The other pictures I have are too large for this forum.These will have to do..I made every piece of this rifle, every bolt and spring..Probably the toughest of my builds to date.. ...
Alphawolf45 wrote:.......I use a file too on nearly everything..
my kind of machine work.
I had a decent little machine shop long before I worked on a gun...And still most of my projects I do are other than gun related.
Here's a little project I did that didn't require use of anything 'cept hand tools yet needed to be done and gave me lot of satisfaction..My dachshund Jenny went lame Saturday. Cant move her hind legs so I built her a doggie wheelchair today....Only had to buy some velcro and pipe elbows and Tees, I had everything else in my 'inventory'
.
Incidently wife and I have 5 weener dogs..This one that is now unable to walk, another that is 13 year old geriatric, second oldest is morbidly obese, another that is 100% blind and last one is 60% blind and 100% deaf...Worrying over these little ones cuts into my shop time so its hard to get more than a couple hours at a time done in the shop..One or more of them come into the shop to get me when they think I have had enough alone time..
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That rifle is a pleasure to behold. Thanks for sharing.
Kirk: An old geezer who loves the smell of freshly turned earth, old cedar rail fences, wood smoke, a crackling fireplace on a snowy evening, pristine wilderness lakes, the scent of
cedars and a magnificent Whitetail buck framed in the semi-buckhorn sights of a 120-year old Winchester. Blog: https://www.kirkdurston.com/
KirkD wrote:That rifle is a pleasure to behold. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks Kirk Given that the receiver was so bad shape to start with that I couldnt make it like new again I chose to give the metal and wood a good used appearance..I messed with the stock for a while to give it that dark stain up on the grip. I think that looks appropriate for the appearance I was trying for.....
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You know how the Winchester 1876 is merely a model 1873 made longer in order to accommodate longer cartridges?......Thinking the other direction...I am about half tempted to reproportion the 1873 to be as physically small as is possible for its receiver to be and still function well with .22 LR.. The idea is to size it to be light weight for a little buckaroo or buckarette to easier use it in Cowboy action shooting..Or just for one of my younger relatives to plink with..I dunno..I just want to build one....Like I need another project
Once again. WOW! I enjoy making an old rifle like new again... but I really don't do any any of the talented work... a little filing and sanding, maybe even hand waxing... that ain't nuttin' compared to the talent, dedication and attention to detail shown in your project.
Like Kim said, if I ever need to feel humbled... all I have to do is look at your work.
Griff,
SASS/CMSA #93
NRA Patron
GUSA #93
There is a fine line between hobby & obsession! AND... I'm over it!!
No I ain't ready, but let's do it anyway!
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