What's it worth to YOU?

Post by **AmBraCol** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:59 am

http://www.levergunscommunity.com generates thousands of hits a day. It could easily generate some decent cash in advertising revenue. But we've always maintained it as an add free, open to anyone who will abide by the rules place. However, lately, efforts to keep the place on track are met with disdain, anger, sniping comments and plain outright hostility. Hobie's been having plenty to go through on his own (Hobie, please forgive me for mentioning it) without the added burden of being sniped at by folks who apparently prefer the lowest common denominator to the high road. He carries 90+% of the burden of moderating this place and it's not fair to him to have to put up with the type of stuff he's had to put up with lately.

Seriously, I'm wondering about my own commitment to this place. It is linked to a good friend's website and is really his intellectual property. It's running on a domain that is in my name and a server that is leased in my name. But any attempt to remind folks to wipe their feet at the door and not track the barnyard effluent on the carpet is met with howls of derision, outrage and an attitude of "It's OUR place now - we'll run it how we like and you can take a hike." It used to be fun to drop in and see what was going on, who was up to what and who was meeting whom where to shoot guns or the breeze. It was an anchor in the middle of a busy life - a chance to escape from the call and duty of ministry and enjoy vicariously a sport and freedom that is all but gone from my current abode. It's not much fun any more.

So, what would it be worth to you to obtain the domain and server rights and run this place to your own heart's desire? The condition would be that Paco's logo comes off and all links to and from his site would be eliminated - but you'd have the run of the place and could moderate it to your heart's content - or let it go to the hogs, your choice. What's it worth to you? Could you keep it on the same direction? Would you let it turn another way? What would it look like if Hobie and I pulled our freight and set it in your control? Would you be willing (able?) to dedicate countless hours to keeping things running smoothly? This is a personal question, not directed at the forum in general but as a (hopefully) individual, heart searching inquiry. What would this place look like? Is that the direction you'd like it to head?

I'm not saying it's for sale nor am I taking any hasty decisions - I'm tossing this out for your consideration and comment.

Y'all have a good day now, y'hear?

cnjarvis · Post by **cnjarvis** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:20 pm

I happen to like the forum as-is. Paul and Hobie do a great job.

Nath · Post by **Nath** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:27 pm

Well said paul, I would hate to lose the status quo.

As a side note a discreet add or two would not bother me,,,,,

Nath.

KSRtrd · Post by **KSRtrd** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:35 pm

you have do a great service to all, certianly hope this site dos not change. I will miss it never mt a more knowledgable crew. You all have been a good witness to myself.

nemhed · Post by **nemhed** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:36 pm

Kind of ironic we currently have an active thread praising Hobie and recently had an apology thread posted by Ambracol in which everyone also praised him, and yet we now have a thread slamming the moderators as pc, censoring, internet nazis. Not to get too theological, but it reminds me of Jesus' triumphant entry into Jerusalem, his clearing of the temple, followed by his crucifixion all in a few short days. Of course, Christ rose from the dead and Paul and Hobie are not the second coming of Christ, but I can not for the life of me figure out why they would volunteer to moderate this forum, and this forum is pretty tame compared to some or most. I think we should take a week off from the forum, give these guys a break, maybe rediscover our real lives, and then decide why we want to continue to participate.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:37 pm

I really like this place and hope nothing changes. I am a member of a couple other boards, one is overmoderated to the point you can get deleted or hollered at for almost nothing, the other allows all sorts of rough language and filthy innuendo. I hope that never happens here.

Having said that, I think this board is no different than any other board, occasionally someone will drop in who has had a hard day, has a problem with social interaction or has had one or two toddies too many. Occasionally someone will try to stir up controversy just for the joy of stirring things up. Not too much we can do about these folks except to ignore them. Taking them seriously and replying only makes things worse.

Lastly, this place is supposed to be for FUN! We need to keep that in mind, and not take OURSELVES too seriously either. If we all just settle down and act like grownups, I think we will be OK.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:39 pm

Alright. Take a deep breath and step back for a second.

I have no idea of course what are in the e-mails and PMs that you and Hobie get.

I think one big part of the perceived problem on this forum is that regardless of the reason a thread or post is deleted/dropped, the offending party is not given notice that his thread/post is being deleted/dropped or has been deleted/dropped and perhaps why it was deleted/dropped.

It happened to me not long ago. I had a thread up about the Baptist Missionaries in Haiti and all of a sudden it disappeared. I just shrugged it off and didn't ask your or Hobie what happened to it; however, it would have been nice and polite on your or Hobie's part to notify me by PM that my thread had been deleted with perhaps a short explanation.

In other words, I think the major problem about deleted/dropped threads and post is RESENTMENT that nobody thought it worthwhile to notify the offending threader/poster as to what the problem was. To me anyway, it is just a common curtosey for a moderator to notify a forum member as to how they have gone astray.

To me, everything seems to be moving along smoothly, with an ocassional bump, here and no need to present the "I'm going to take my ball and go home and you guys are on your own" scenario.

I'm just putting forth my thoughts and do not mean any disrespect to you, Hobie, the mail man, Terry Mrucbach's carbuckle, or the horse the flea rode in on.

One last thing. I do get a little tired of the reference to young children on the forum and what they may or may not see. Children should NOT have unfettered access to the internet -- PERIOD. If your (not meaning you personally AmBraCol) kid is on the internet unsupervised then don't complain when something pops up that you don't want him/her to see.

And one last last thing. I'll stop posting pictures of my fat gals (it'll make Mescalero1 unhappy) if other guys will stop posting dang near naked pictures of their gals.

This is a great forum with a lot of good info. I think more of it is starting to go too "Off Topic" but that's just my opinion. You and Hobie keep up the good work and remember that the boss always gets the brunt of the blame when a bump is encountered in production.

71fan · Post by **71fan** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:46 pm

I love this forum and believe it's the best firearms-related forum out there. It has certainly changed A LOT from what it was five or six years ago, but it is still "home" for a lot of folks.

I can't imagine the time commitment to run such a place as this, and my hat goes off to Hobie and Paul - THANK YOU!!

I don't know what's been going on - I try to state away from it and just focus on the Levergun posts, which is what I've been doing for several years now. I know the mods can't do that, but please try to ignore the static as best you can and keep on truckin.

I for one would like things to stay the way they are. My seven year old is just starting to read over my shoulder, and as it is now, I know I don't have anything to worry about.

So again, to all who make this forum run smoothly, and especially PACO, Hobie, and Paul - THANK YOU.

Borregos · Post by **Borregos** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:54 pm

I like it here

I think Paul and Hobie do a GREAT job

I would hate to lose this forum, it has become a part of my life

I can understand some folk being upset at unexplained deletions but also understand that the moderators may just not have the time to explain every time.

willygene · Post by **willygene** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:07 pm

I haven't been here long but i have come to the sight for a awhile just for info i like the way this forum is run and have no problem with it i think the moderators do a good job here, unlike other sights that are over moderated by morons who make things personal and start problems not stop them. I think Hobie and AmBraCol do an excellent job on a sight that has so much to look at and oversee.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:20 pm

I think this forum has the highest standards of any forum I've seen without the illness of being politically correct. There's nothing wrong with the mods having free reign to delete what they need to as they feel is needed. I've had post delteted either by the mods or by whatever quirk of fate seemed to happen in the cyber world. All I can say is OH WELL? No need to get in a huff.
As for common courtesy, I don't feel an explanation is needed, ever. No one is forced to come here and no one is forced to stay. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

I would like to see some adds to be truthful. It seems that with the number of hits this place has, someone should be making something off of it. Even if it's for nothing more than maintainable expenses.

shooter · Post by **shooter** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:30 pm

I expressed my opinion about the moderators in another thread. All I will say here is hats off to Paul and Hobie for what they do. They shouldn't have to put up with constant bickering between adults.

I think you should let the people that want to get mad and leave, leave, and the people who want to stay and play by the rules, do so. Nobody should get their feathers ruffled by anything said on this site, or anything done by the mods, IMO. Maybe question it, but not get upset. Life's just not worth it.

Maybe some that want to leave have good reasons, I don't know. That is their choice to make. I have no hard feelings toward them and wish them well. I even respect them for standing by the views they hold valuable. I, for one, would hate to see this board change for the worse, which is what I think would happen if Paul and Hobie were to jump ship. I wouldn't mind a little advertising on here, either, and I would really hate to see this forum go............

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:33 pm

Rusty wrote:I think this forum has the highest standards of any forum I've seen without the illness of being politically correct. There's nothing wrong with the mods having free reign to delete what they need to as they feel is needed. I've had post delteted either by the mods or by whatever quirk of fate seemed to happen in the cyber world. All I can say is OH WELL? No need to get in a huff.
As for common courtesy, I don't feel an explanation is needed, ever. No one is forced to come here and no one is forced to stay. If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.

I would like to see some adds to be truthful. It seems that with the number of hits this place has, someone should be making something off of it. Even if it's for nothing more than maintainable expenses.

Your line above -- "If you don't like it, don't let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya." should get your post deleted as it implies having a door in your rear orifice. Actually, worse that referencing a "Cat House". You really should stop making those type of remarks.

deerwhacker444 · Post by **deerwhacker444** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:36 pm

cnjarvis wrote:I happen to like the forum as-is. Paul and Hobie do a great job.

+1 Indeed..!

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:39 pm

shooter wrote:I wouldn't mind a little advertising on here, either,

Advertising and the pop-ups advertising generates would surely kill this site/forum.

A better way would be a permanent link that would allow donations by those that want to make them to the site via PayPal, etc..

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:45 pm

We used to have ads on the old site, did we not? I could be wrong, but I seem to recall them making an appearance there toward the end. It was not a big deal.

Modoc ED · Post by **Modoc ED** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:45 pm

Hmmmmmm, why was the thread "I'm leaving the Forum for a while because of censorship..." locked?

Nothing I read in that thread could possibly have offended Mothers, women, children, or girlie men. It was simply giving forum members a place to vent should they have wanted to. Had it not been locked, I think some of the other new threads that are appearing would not have been started and that most of the flack about censorship (real or perceived) would have died down by the end of the day.

The only thing locking that thread accomplished was to stoke the censorship (real or perceived) fire.

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:18 pm

quick 2 cents:

adds would ruin the forum.

Have not seen the PMs or read the Emails, but from the posts, no one has said its OUR forum or lost the fact that we are guests here of Paco's under the rule of the moderators.

This forum has been a home to many and those that call it so, have been pretty vocal and vigilent to ride herd on those who don't play by the rules.

Barcelona Rick · Post by **Barcelona Rick** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 2:36 pm

A big thank you to Paul and Hobie....I would kick in a few $$ to help keep the forum just like it is....let's all please take a deep breath....I loved Marlin Talk....it is gone and I sure as heck don't want to see LeverGuns go away....

jumbeaux

4t5 · Post by **4t5** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:05 pm

I too enjoy this site,learning more from it than I could ever hope to give back.The moderators do a wonderfull job,if anyone has a problem with this site they should leave, QUIETLY, as argueing and sniping accomplishes nothing,and if they won't leave quietly,then they should get booted,me included if that's who we're talking about.

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:21 pm

I hate adds. I quit going to The Sixshooter Community because of the adds. The adds slow the loading of Single-Actions down to a horrid level.

Put adds here and the same thing will happen. You've already said the bills are paid up till next year, you said that in the apology thread a couple days ago. So there's no need to push adds at us to get our attention. When the need for funds comes up just say so.

And as ModocED said why was the "I'm leaving the Forum for a while because of censorship..." locked? Nothing wrong with that thread at all. I actually think some of the posters were really getting to the point of things, especially 76/444.

I've been personally attacked here, and reported it to both you and Hobie and neither of you did anything about it. Yet I bit my tongue and kept my fingers from incinerating the attackers. I was even seriously considering leaving this forum as well.
Now you are are getting frustrated with us because we are beginning to voice our frustration with the inconsistent use of moderating powers and threatening to take your server and go home?
That's childish.

I like this forum. I will not hesitate to say that it is the best on the web. That's why I spend way more time here than anywhere else. I'd really hate to see it shut down or radically changed.
But certain things need to be done to reduce the frustration here. This is not a childs or an old folks forum. It is a gun forum for adults. I resent the fact that we are being forced into a 5th grade parochial status as we post here.

This is just my feelings on the issue. Probably not the right place to post this, but it takes me while to compose things sometimes and every other thread has been locked down just before I get to the point of posting.

Back off the delete and lock buttons guys.

Joe

RSY · Post by **RSY** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:57 pm

All very well said, Joe. I agree 100%.

Now, I am a longtime member, but awhile back I made the choice to "leave" of my own accord due to the fact that I needed to devote more of my time to increasing my livelihood and providing for my family. I haven't quite cracked that nut, but I have started to swing back around here because this place was my online home for so long and I missed it and the people here.

This current situation does bring to mind something that occurred prior to my need to limit my time here. It was at a time when we still had only one General Forum and political posts were becoming more and more frequent. It was getting to be a problem for some, so in a very civil manner I made the suggestion to establish a separate political forum. Paul, you came down on me, and hard. In no uncertain terms I was publicly told that if that was how I felt I should establish and run a forum of my own. Basically, love it here, or leave it. A very short time later, lo and behold, the higher-ups decided to establish (wait for it...) a separate political forum.

Talk about adding insult to injury.

I am not a man of great means, but I have made it a point to go on a Leverguns hunt and donate time and money/auction donations to this place. I have a stake in it as a user. This place is a three-legged stool : Owner, Moderators, and Members. It will fall without any one of those leg's input.

Bottom line is, respect is a 2-way street. When a member (ESPECIALLY a member in proven good standing as Victor is) has something deleted, I don't think it's too much to ask for a little notification from the Mod's. And, if the moderation of this forum is becoming too much (as I can well imagine), I absolutely know there are others out there who have the time and desire to help out in that role as additional moderators.

Oh, well...maybe I'm just bitter because my "Emeritus" paperwork has yet to clear Division. After all, I did register back in 2003, actually a few weeks before ol' Joe Miller.

Scott

geobru · Post by **geobru** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:05 pm

I'm not going to criticize the moderators at all for the job they have done. Hobie and Paul have done a great job IMO in making this a place that I check in on daily. Some have expressed their empathy for some of the guys that get a bit hot headed due to a long hard day or whatever, but I submit that the moderators are just like the rest of us. They put their pants on one leg at a time too. Just like us, they have good days and bad days.

The thing that sets them apart is they are tasked with the responsibility to maintain a certain level of behavior by all who participate on this site. That is not as easy as it may seem. Anyone who has ever managed other people realizes that even people who seemingly have the same goals are as different as the clouds in the sky. Everyone has their own idea of how to get from point A to point B. In the case of this forum, we all have our own notions of what should be allowed.

Levergunners, the boss may not always be right, you may not always like the boss, but the fact remains that the boss is the boss! Without leadership, this site would be a summation of whatever the lowest common denominator deems as acceptable like so many other forums on the web that are just out of hand. The moderators on this site are donating their time!

As I said, I really enjoy this site and I applaude the job the moderators are doing. They set the standard and it is up to us to live up to that standard as best we can. That means that at times we will lose a post or a word will be changed to protect the innocent. Whenever that occurs, lets just cut them some slack and move on.

THANK YOU HOBIE AND PAUL!

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 5:58 pm

I understand that this is someone else's forum and that participating here, even for an extended period of time, does not impart any special privilege to a member. I didn't join to test the limits of the Moderator's tolerance, although I am sure that I contribute my percentage to that effort.

There is apparently some stress involved in performing the Moderator's duty that is related to criticism received as a result of performing those duties.

I'll note that there have been many threads created expressing gratitude and admiration for the job performed by the Moderators and expressing thanks to the owner for providing the venue.

I enjoy the comeraderie of the membership. I've met some fine people as a result of frequenting Leverguns.com.

I come across content that I disgree with. There are opinions expressed that push my buttons. Even with the rules in place this is fairly open forum.

The discussion is in play: There are some things the moderators do that bother the users of the forum, as a result, the moderators want to take their toys up and go home.

Nobody likes to be on the receiving end of criticism, especially when they think that it's personal. On the other hand, those same people truly enjoy letting other people have it up to the hilt.

Members and Moderators alike, folks are getting wound too tight. Take a day off. It's just an Internet forum. There is nothing personal here. Grant that people make mistakes, and try to assume the best intent about them.

Not to get too touchy-feely, but a little bit of communication goes a long way. If forum members are curious about why the Moderators have done something, why not just ask? Likewise, if Moderators have to perform a task that will affect some member's most treasured post, seems like they might drop them a line explaining what or why.

Nothing's perfect, and it's just silly to expect anything to be so.

Anyway, my 2-cents.

Leverdude · Post by **Leverdude** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:09 pm

Not sure what all prompted this as I'm not here all that often. I'm sure sometimes I ruffle feathers just like mine get ruffled on occasion. I value this place quite a bit, even though as I said I'm not here much.
Been enjoying it for long enough I'm not certain exactly when I joined. I know its been over 6 years or so though. Sure would hate to see it disappear or change in significant ways.
Its been a LOOONG winter for many. I know I'm ready for spring & pretty irritable lately, others might be as well. Life is too short tho to sweat the small stuff.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:48 pm

Bogie35 · Post by **Bogie35** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:58 pm

FWiedner said it well.

Also, our members are the most passionate people I know of. That's why I come here, because the people are real and not afraid to say what needs to be said. It's the least politically correct group of people I know!

I believe that everybody has been stressed by the abrupt collapse of the economy and morals in our society. And many of us have been emotionally affected by the tough events of life. Our moderators are not immune to any of it. Maybe it's our turn to show some grace.

I think many of us have failed to realize how much is involved in maintaining this forum. Candidly, I'm not willing to devote that much time and energy for free. Paul and Hobie are doing it because they love the forum and most of our members. Are they perfect? Absolutely not! Are they power hungry control freaks? Absolutely not! I certainly don't have anything but praise for their efforts. However, if I feel that I have been mistreated, I hope that I would be decent enough to PM them instead of "bringing them out in public". I have brought people out publicly before, and nobody won. In fact, it did more harm than good. Swallowing my pride is not one of my strengths, but sometimes it's best.

I love this place! You people have become an extended family to me. Seriously! I would hate to see yet another good thing go by the wayside, like so much else in our current society.

Many thanks to Paul, Hobie, and all of our forum members!

bogie

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:17 pm

I guess I don't make the rounds on this board as often as I used to, so I'm not sure what the squabble is about. I've been a member for awhile now, and I do like the forum and would truly hate to see it dropped or changed radically.

As far as ads go, if they pay the bills, I don't have a problem with them. 24HourCampfire has them. I don't pay any attention to them and couldn't tell you who advertises on that board. I can ignore them on any forum, I guess, if they're not too intrusive. I've always thought that the moderators did a good job here, probably because their efforts were pretty much invisible to me. Kudos to them

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:25 pm

I never thought I'd EVER hang out on an internet forum.
However when I found this place and asked that first question I was
astonished by the honest and pleasant responses.
This has been my favorite place on the net since.

I have made some friends and made some deals, but I feel
I am amidst friends here.
A few arguments aside.

jb

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:46 pm

Paul I know it's a LOT of work to keep this site up and running. I know that the Mods have lives and other things to do, and I can envision the necessity sometimes just to hit delete. I appreciate that.

To go toward the thought in your original post, I know that if I owned and moderated this site I'd hit 'delete' a lot more frequently than y'all do.

When I built and ran the local library network in my Alaska spot I had that cranked down tight and caught lots of flack for preventing the denizens from running wild. I had the passwords and was the only person on earth who could make it work, so it went my way. And it provided the best service for the most amount of users.

I think you're leading to this in the OP, that the site policy is set in stone and altering that policy in any significant way alters the entire site and makes it into something it is not.

Personally I like the security of knowing that men of good will and sound judgement are riding herd here. It makes for a much more relaxing visit and much less drama.

I also think the season has something to do with the levels of drama....

Kudos to Paco, Paul, and Hobie! It's an achievment. Perhaps it feels like herding cats sometimes, but basically it IS herding cats.....

now you cats don't take offense, 'hear?

Grizz sends

jhrosier · Post by **jhrosier** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:09 pm

I would be very disappointed if this forum were to be changed from what it is.
That being said, I could live with a few discrete ads or make an annual donation if the money is an issue.

Please don't let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us.
Disrespect for the moderators should not be tolerated.
Those who can't play by the very few and simple rules should be restricted from posting for a while or banned if a discrete word to the wise is ignored.

I come here every morning with my breakfast before going off to work. It is a great way to start and end the day, with nice people and interesting topics.

Jack

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:36 pm

jhrosier wrote:Please don't let a few bad apples spoil it for the rest of us.
Disrespect for the moderators should not be tolerated.
Those who can't play by the very few and simple rules should be restricted from posting for a while or banned if a discrete word to the wise is ignored.

Jack

This reminds me of that old George Carlin line about things you never hear in movies; "Do what you want to the girl, but leave me alone."

The folks doing the heavy lifting certainly deserve our mutual respect, but not at the level of "worship". Respect is a reciprocal device.

I can't say I'd be ammenable to such a draconian advance, and the forum would certainly be much less worth visiting.

KentuckyLevrgunr · Post by **KentuckyLevrgunr** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:47 pm

I haven't been here that long but I feel like changing anything about the forum would be taking it in the wrong direction. This forum is the most helpful, clean cut forum it's ever been my pleasure to call my self a member of. I do respectfully agree that notification of post/thread deletion would be courteous. However, if you have had something deleted without notification, it should be discussed through PM. Making the discussion public is asking for trouble.

Anyhow, I appreciate the lack of ads and friendly, helpful demeanor of the vast, vast majority of members here. I don't know anybody all that well, but this forum feels about like a local gun club and I like it that way a lot. So, long story short, I love this forum exactly how it is and hate to see anything change. Thumbs up to mods and members alike.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 8:48 pm

Being a moderator is like being a range officer at a CAS match or a union shop steward--a thankless job for puting up with lots of aggravation.

Maybe we can have some sort of "internet firing squad" and just "shoot" individuals when they get out of line. Hobie and Paul would be the "executioners". Then we can post pictures of the deceased and have a timeline when they can come back to life. It would be neat--you would have your choice of weapons, cast or jacketed bullets, tang sights or open, heck, even the velocity of your rounds.

Leave it all alone--how much in the way of bucks you want?---------Sixgun

Alan Wood · Post by **Alan Wood** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:51 pm

I like the forum just the way it is. I definately agree with those who say you don't like the rules then please leave quitely!

And thank you for operating this forum!

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 10:06 pm

I obviously like this board or I wouldn't be haning around.

If adds are needed to meet the expenses - then by all means get some in here - it wouldn't bother me a bit. Pop ups would but not regular banner advertisements. IMHO

Kansas Ed · Post by **Kansas Ed** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:07 pm

A couple of words...I've stayed out of this fray till this point. But, I'll step in now and voice myself. I do recognize that I'm in anothers home, and treat it accordingly. To my knowledge I've never had a post deleted, but there seem to be a few Holy
Grails that are beyond discussion around here. Likewise there is at least one member who is given free gratis to post as he pleases to the discomfort of everyone else on the forum. It's not the rules per-se that irk people, but the double standard that is applied. If I made comments that some were allowed, I would be blocked, deleted, banned. If a Muslim or Buddhist made their religion as pronounced as is done with the Christian faith, it would be banished. If someone speaks ill of the NRA, even in the good faith of fostering positive change, it's locked. There is a fine line to walk ( being just and objective) and I try and walk that line every moment of my life. I'm not always successful, but I do try and make it the sounding board for all of my posts and all of my actions. I won't pretend to be dedicated enough to play the moderator, or take the time necessary to take on the responsibility of the forum mechanics. This is a social site as far as I'm concerned. Neither will I pay money in fee's to participate.

I once emailed several moderators suggesting that we start a loading data section. But it was met with non-interest by those in charge. If that database was started, I would consider paying fees, but as the forum stands currently, I won't pay. It's nice to see some range reports, and it's nice to hear about someone else's hunt. But it's just not my gig to pay to be here without usable data which is easily accessible. And BTW, I currently pay fees to two other forums, so the fees aren't so much the issue, as the ROI (Return on Investment). I don't mind a few ads either, but IME the ads don't show much ROI either from a forum standpoint.

I've been at this forum for quite a few years, and I log on every day. I have friends I've made here, and people I would keep in touch with should it go away. But never the less, there was a time when I thought of dropping the whole thing and never returning. Primarily because of the non objective nature that is dominant here. I stayed at the time, and I hope I've added a measure of learning for a member or two while I was here. But I find that this has become less of a learning environment, and more of a social networking site. Seems to me that we have lost the initial intent of the site. This was supposed to be primarily a discussion of leverguns. But the last few years it's turned into a site which has discussed primarily everything else, and a few levergun posts thrown into the mix. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy many of the posts regardless, but like so many of lifes endeavors, it seems that we lost our way somewhere, and the focus was blurred with the irrelevant. That fact has cost us several very good members in the last couple of years.

For one, early on in my tenure here Hobie came to my defense in an uncalled for personal attack. I have never forgotten that. And I will always appreciate that. So I always try to look at the intent which the moderators judge by. I don't pretend to agree with all the decisions, but I look at things and always give the benefit of doubt when it comes to the moderation.

IMO lets get back on track...nix the religion, nix the bs, nix the politics, nix the irrelevant. Out of the first 39 posts currently, there are 10 relating to leverguns....get my point? Lets talk about leverguns, and general shooting. I think if we stuck to the subject matter there would be a lot less grief around here.

Ed

sgtgrinche · Post by **sgtgrinche** » Tue Feb 16, 2010 11:57 pm

guys don't let the cabin fever get ya! its been a long cold winter everbody take a day off and go to the range get yourselves right come back and have a cup of coffee by the fire and give us a good range report with pics

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:18 am

I too say thumbs down on ads.

Everybody is pretty well sick and tired of all the cold and snow (and lack of sunshine where I live), and are probably getting cabin fever. This is a great forum, and Hobie and Paul do a great job of trying to balance everything going on. I agree with the numerous posts asking people to just step back and take a deep breath when things get too intense. Just my 2cents...

Dastook · Post by **Dastook** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:42 am

This is by far the best forum on the net IMHO. When I think about the reasons I feel this way, they are many. It's real simple. If it were to change I sure would not be here. I like it the way it is. Please don't change. And thanks to all that work hard to keep it that way.

457121 · Post by **457121** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:02 am

i used to be a member here years ago under a different name. i recently joined again a few days ago so i don't know what the problems might be but i'm sure they're no different than any other internet forum. the reason i left for years was the amount of off topic stuff you had to wade through to find any gun topics. i personally don't care about anyone's politics or their personal baggage. that's not why i or anyone else would come here originally. if this place was called "politics talk" or "personal support group" would any people that are here now join? i see now that alot of threads have a big 'OT' in the title which is nice as i know not to open them. i would like to see a new section for all the OT posts seperate from the levergun stuff. you could make it a enter at your own risk, throw yourself to the wolves, free for all and not moderate it. or the easiest thing would be to keep the site on topic: guns, reloading, shooting, and hunting with leverguns.

gimdandy · Post by **gimdandy** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:51 pm

I KNOW OF NOT 1 POST THAT HAS EVER BEEN DELETED THAT WAS SAID RESPECTFULLY AND WAS ABOUT GUNS . Oops the last 4 words could be omitted from previous sentence.
Also I can't figure out why a mod should have to take any time at all to tell someone if and why a post was deleted . I'm purtty sure you can figure it out for yourself . Besides if you stand back just a bit and look at it , do you (or I ) think anything that you have to say is really all that important ? You can't believe that someone else is hanging on every word because of it's importance . I think that if you stand back you'll realize that the reason this place is what it is , is because of the way it is run.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:11 pm

I absolutely wish it to be Moderated by you and Hobie.
We need to respect you guy's as the Mod's and your rules and you two have my full backing.

As I said before,if this changes and goes to the barnyard back door approach---------I do not want to continue my membership here. If I want a dump heap to hang out at,I would have already been at one presently.

I knew it would come to this possibility, and ALL OF US as invited member's here "better wake up or we will lose alot".

Anytime my brain goes brainless please delete any of my posts ASAP or even if required just remove me period if I don't get it. I hope that won't ever happen though. Just as I hope this Forum does not change with the exception that EVERYBODY begins respecting you Moderator's and Paco.

bsaride · Post by **bsaride** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:26 pm

Keep the site the way it is!

Excellent job by all, moderator's and posters with only a few problems.

When I need something, I always look to the sticky from sponsors' and supporters first.
Might add a section (sticky) for paid adds and also a sticky post for donations
(I wouldn't mind a bianual post to make donations).

Keep up the good work!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:33 pm

Here's my 'big picture' assessment:

a) I know it would be more work for the moderators, and
b) I don't know how many posts they wind up deleting (i.e. the real work-load involved), but...

I think if whenever a post/thread is deleted or locked, a brief comment to the offender from the moderator(s) as to WHY, would:

a) FIX that specific thread (which is already happening), but more importantly,
b) EDUCATE the offender (which could be happening via PM's, but none of the 'rest' of us know that), and
c) lessen whatever 'offense' the offender takes at being censored, thus reducing the current forum TENSION somewhat.

The things I do not know are (among many):

a) how much 'extra' work this would be for the moderators.
b) to what extent such 'education' is already being done via Private Messages to the offender.
c) at what point in the process the offender should be 'educated' publicly vs. privately.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:42 pm

Lotsa comments on the subject, eh?!

I'll wade in, too. This is the ONLY internet forum that I regularly visit.
Lots and lots of information on guns, loading, and like any group of
people an incredible assortment of interests and skills to share.
I like the ladies in lingerie, too! Tastefully done.......

Some folks here are a wee bit sensitive, and others are really quite
prudish. Still, that's no different than dealing with folks at work or
anywhere else. As a previous poster said, "lighten up - it's only an
internet forum!"

The moderators, IMHO, do a terrific job. Some days they are more tolerant
than others, but I really like the place. Is it perfect? Lord, no! (No offense
intended!)

-Stretch

SMOKE JENSEN · Post by **SMOKE JENSEN** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:16 pm

I don't post very often,but I read almost everyday. Like I told Steve from Steves Gunz when I ordered his DVD & Parts for my 92, I have learned alot by being quiet and listening to what others have to say. I feel Hobie & AmbraCol do a great job and care about the site and people who come to this site. So instead of trashing them we all should be thanking them for providing a place to meet new friends,learn new things about leverguns or guns in general and yes even vent once in awhile.
Great job guys, keep it up.

Smoke

JReed · Post by **JReed** » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:48 pm

I first got here back in 04 and found myself at home. At the time I was the youngest member on the board and not one of you ever talked down to me or treated me with anything but respect (even if I got lose in the lips on occasion). This board has gone threw several changes over the years but the feel has always been the same. With the amount of moving I do in my profession this board has been a welcome constant whether I am here in the states or stationed abroad this board has been there. I would be greatly disappointing to see it change and hope that it doesn't.

As far as how the moderators do their job I feel they do a great job. Especially when you look at the number of Alpha type personality's we have here. I don't envy them but do applaud the work they do in maintaining the forum rules. Just my humble opinion.

Halfbreed · Post by **Halfbreed** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:44 am

I was thinking just the opposite that this forum is under-moderated in some respects especially concerning certain few regular trolls who have crept in and have very little to offer besides personal attacks and ignorant opinions. Too many good people have left the forum due to them but these few trolls still remain. In many other forums this kind of behavior is not tolerated and the offending trolls permanently banned.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:47 pm

I appreciate the time-consuming work it is for Hobie and AmBraCol to moderate and run this forum. I am tired and can hardly arrange three words in a row to form a sentence, so maybe I'm saying something I'll regret in the morning, but here goes ....... anyone who puts as much of their personal time and resources into running and moderating this forum can call the shots exactly as they like. If I don't like it, I'll head off somewhere else, but until then I'll enjoy myself here and be very thankful for the efforts of AmBraCol and Hobie. I think I'll stagger off to bed now .... probably won't even remember that I posted to this thread here when I wake up in the morning ........