Mountain Meadows Massacre

[El Chivo]

I just saw the movie "September Dawn" which was about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in Utah on September 11, 1857.

Apparently the Mormons went after a wagon train that was passing through their land, because they were from Missouri and Arkansas, and they had a grudge against them because their founder, Joseph Smith, was killed in Missouri.

Anybody know more about this? Those nice respectable Mormons, it has me shocked.

[mklwhite]

Many of those wagons assembled in a field near a creek just south of town here as the main launching point for that trip. There is a little roadside marker that mentions it there and a larger one at the square.

[dkmlever]

Good movie that increased my history knowledge of that time frame.

[firefuzz]

I just saw the movie "September Dawn" which was about the Mountain Meadows Massacre in Utah on September 11, 1857.

Apparently the Mormons went after a wagon train that was passing through their land, because they were from Missouri and Arkansas, and they had a grudge against them because their founder, Joseph Smith, was killed in Missouri.

Anybody know more about this? Those nice respectable Mormons, it has me shocked.

Joseph Smith was murdered in Carthage, Illinois not in Missouri. Other than being blamed for every non-Morman death in that area at the time, there is absolutely no evidence to connect the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to the massacre and the Church has always denied any association with it. The fact that there may have been some renegade "members" of the Church with the indians known to have been there does not mean it was Church sanctioned.

"Those nice respectable Mormons, it has me shocked." Before you go desparaging Morman's and their Church maybe you should do a little more research into what had happened to them in the past in several areas, not just Missouri. They were forced in the dead of winter from an area they had completely reclaimed from the Mississippi River and hundreds of them killed. They settled in the "Utah" area, completely away and to themselves and were still followed and persecuted. They weren't moving again.

Calling this movie a historical representation of an event is like saying Tombstone or Wyatt Earp is an accurate portrayal of the Earp/Clanton shootout.

Rob

[Hobie]

I believe we have descendents of the participants on the forum...

[KCSO]

I will try and find my True West that had a for and against on the MMM. According to most reliable sources Porter Rockwell the Mormon Avenger was the leader of the MMM. The problem with researching this is that anti Mormon feeling was very deep at the time and for a long time after. Naturaly the Mormons had nothing documented either. If you really want to start a fight mention this in print. True West took flack from both sides for 6 months over this one.

[jnyork]

I can recall animated discussions of this incident in my extended family when I was a child in the 1940's-1950's. To this day someone will write an article or do a "study" on the subject and it's always certain to stir things up.

[Booger Bill]

First, I AM NOT morman, or fixing on being one. I live at cedar city utah where it was the militia from this town that wiped out the wagon train. I have read everything I could on the massicure. When we moved here, my mother in law (wifes stepmother) casualy said John Doyle Lee was her great, great grandfather! He was one of the leaders and the only person to be shot for his part in the massicure about 20 years later. He was exicuted on the site of the massicure. He definetly was used as a scapegoat and thrown to the wolves by brigham young and many other higharcky of the mormans. He deserved to be exicuted, but so did many others that werent. Utah was fighting for statehood and he was the appeasment to get it.
At the time of the massicure the united states army was marching towards utah from the east to clean house and remove brigham young and get rid of poligamy etc. The francher party wagon train was comeing through from salt lake city. Brigham Young had put the word out that the mormans should not sell them any supplys. Men of the party were bitter and told the mormans they had been part of the mob that killed joesph smith etc, and that when they got to california they were going to instigate a army from the west while the united states army attacked from the east. Supposedly the party also poisoned a well where some indians died, however that is disputed.
Lee was head of or sort of appointed "indian farmer or agent to the indians down the road here at harmony utah. He also was a officer in the militia. It would take a book to try to tell this right, and there are several books out there on it. Google the net and you can find a lot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain_Meadows_massacre
http://mountainmeadowsmassacre.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_D._Lee
Lee tricked the wagon train into surrendering and on command about 122 people were massicured by the militia and indians. About 20 children under 8 years old were spared and adopted by local mormans thinking as they grew up they wouldnt remember the incident.
Our daughter is getting married in july to a decendant of one of those orphans!
The movie was great! Many people gave thumbs down to the movie. It wasnt shown here, the wife and I had to drive to mesquite nevada to see it.
I am a history buff. I belive I had already known more about Lee than my MIL. A statue of Lee was made to display in st. george, but it was blackballed by some. I understand some other decendants have since bought it, but dont know who has it now. Hope I havent bored you! (Jon voight plays in the movie too.)

[Terry Murbach]

THIS IS A SUBJECT THAT WILL ALWAYS CAUSE A RUCKUS. FROM ALL I HAVE BEEN ABLE TO READ OVER THE DECADES THE FANCHER PARTY WAS A ROWDY BUNCH WHO CLAIMED TO HAVE THE GUN USED TO KILL JOSEPH SMITH AND HAD ALSO OR WERE ALSO KNOWN TO HAVE ABUSED SOME MORMEN WOMEN. IT SEEMS TO ME THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY TO BE A BUNCH OF OBNOXIOUS BASTARDS WHILE IN THE LAND OF DESERET AND SOME FOLKS IN THE SOUTH OF DESERET DECIDED TO PUT A STOP TO IT ALL PERMANENTLY. THEY DID A FINE JOB OF IT TOO AS ALL BUT THE YOUNGEST OF CHILDREN IN THE FANCHER PARTY WERE KILLED. THE INDIANS INVOLVED IN THE KILLING HAD NO COMPUNCTIONS ABOUT KILLING THE OLDER CHILDREN AND DID SO, SO THE WHITE MEN WOULD NOT HAVE THE BLOOD OF INNOCENTS UPON THEIR HANDS.
THE PARTY WHO TOOK CARE OF BUSINESS THERE WERE LED BY A MAN NAMED JOHN LEE. I USED TO KNOW HIS G.G. GRANDSON QUITE WELL BUT NEVER KNEW THE CONNECTION UNTIL WE SORTA PARTED COMPANY, AS IT WERE.
JOHN LEE WAS EVENTUALLY EXECUTED WHILE SITTING UPON HIS COFFIN AT THE SITE OF THE MASSACRE.
NOW, THERE IS NOTHING I HAVE EVER READ THAT EVEN HINTED AT THE PRESENSE OF PORTER ROCKWELL IN THE MMM.
OH YES.....PORTER ROCKWELL,, THE AVENGING ANGEL, AND THE DANITES, NOW THERE IS AN INTERESTING STORY !!!!!

[Booger Bill]

Me and John Doyle Lee.

http://s99.photobucket.com/albums/l320/ ... IM0514.jpg

[KCSO]

The article I was refering to said, If I remeber right that Young and Old Port INSTIGATED the event and later claimed to have no knowledge of it. Over 120 people killed and one SCAPEGOAT hung after a couple of trials, who will ever know?

[Charles]

It is doubtful that the full truth of the event will ever be known. Each side is bent on casting the other side in the worse possible light. There were also layers of silence and denibility between the folks who did the deed and the Morman higher leadership.

The topic even gets more convoluted because it involves some Mormon belief's of the time, such as blood atonement that is hard to understand these days and times.

At the end of the day, all religious groups including Mormons and Christians has black chapters in their history and modern day believers should not have to bear the guilt of what took place in the distance past by others who are long dead and gone. When it comes to history neither apologies or apologists are needed...just facts.

A recent well researched book on the subject is entitled "Blood of the Prophets". It was written by a Mormon, but it must be noted that Mormons like Christians and others often don't agree with each other.

I am not a Mormon, but my GGMother was. She became a Mormon in Norway and came to this country under a program for Mormon immigrants. She arrived in Salt Lake in 1876. She married there and moved to Bozeman were her husband did very well in the brewery business. We figure he was not a good Morman. There are still Mormons on that side of the family.

[bdhold]

here is what the LDS says about it (I couldn't be farther from a mormon)
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... _&locale=0

at the other side, a good discussion on the doctrine of blood atonement, and the question of LDS authorizing the state of martial law that led to the massacre:
http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/meadows1.htm

[Charles]

Yep.. That is the official version. The question will forever be...What did Brigham Young know and when did he know it? The official version has Young entirely out of the loop until later. Other versions have Young very much in the loop. Who knows... I don't! One thing fairly certain is that the folks on the ground at Mountain Meadows thought they had authority from the highest level and afterwards felt betrayed and thrown to the wolves or gentiles as the case may be.

Somebody, at some level, did some lieing after the fact. The question is who? I have my opinion, but that is all it just and opinion and certainly not fact.

[bdhold]

from what I read, he couldn't know - he was 240 miles away.
However, he had the state expecting invasion from the US, had already declared martial law, called up the militia, mandated that immigrants could not pass through without written permits (gave the authority to write these permits to the local priests, which essentially means any male), and forbade selling of provisions to "gentiles"

so I would say he knew nothing specific about these events until they were passed, but he had preached, authorized, and legislated that something like this was bound to happen.

before you guys get too puffed up on the sins of Christianity, our man in 1857 was David Livingstone.

[Booger Bill]

Last thanksgiveing our daughter invited us, her grandparents, (wifes father and stepmother) and her fiances parents to her house in southern california. My mother in law and our daughters future mother in law got to compareing notes. That is when we found out that the daughters mother in law to be is a great, great grand daughter to one of the orphans of the massicure. Of course we already knew about my mother in law being John Doyle Lees great great grand daughter. The ladys got along well and appear to becomeing friends! I thought it was a neat thing to see. Neither are mormon, although my mother in law had been and left it many years ago. What is the odds of this? Remember, daughter and son in law to be never lived in utah! I dont think Guy, (daughters fiance) even knew of his own heritage untill his mother laid it on him same time we heard it!
Its kind of interesting to see people argue about the massicure with no connection, and on the other hand the two decendants not make much of a deal of it! Maybe something can be learned from that?
As I said in my 1st post, after studying the deal, I belive Lee was justifibly exicuted. I belive my MIL belives that too, however we both agree he was a scapegoat and many more should have been exicuted. I am aquainted with one of the decendants of one of the other principals of the massicure, and he agrees with me.
I have visited the site a number of times, also the grave of Lee at panguitch. Took my MIL there, and after looking awhile, she was the one to find it. That was neat.
From what I have gathered around here, many, many local mormans around here know next to nothing about the massicure!
Poligamists are to be seen around here too, but hardly anyone but me seems to take much note of it!

[Booger Bill]

From all my studying on it, my personnal opinion that I CANT prove is that Brigham Young was protected on the deal. All covered for him. And Lee while deserveing his punishment was definetly a scapegoat to get statehood and Young off!

[bdhold]

funny, I thought we were discussing and you were arguing.

don't even know how we got on the topic, but chatting with my girlfriend last evening about the institutionalized polygamy and she was floored that it could exist.

[Joel]

I only know of it from what I watched on PBS. Whatever the truth, it was a bad deal.

Heres what PBS did on it.

http://www.pbs.org/weta/thewest/program ... untain.htm

[bdhold]

the way I see it, BY was talking really big. He was preparing for a war with the US, and his big talk caught up with him.
Certainly Lee was made a scapegoat for the sake of statehood, but he sounds like the type who would have gladly offered himself in place of BY. Without military action against Utah there is no reason they would have wanted to prosecute BY. Without an internal "traitor" and a paper trail, there is no way they could tie him directly to the decision. By the time of statehood, it was all just a question of politics.

[Old Time Hunter]

Yep.. That is the official version. The question will forever be...What did Brigham Young know and when did he know it? The official version has Young entirely out of the loop until later. Other versions have Young very much in the loop. Who knows... I don't! One thing fairly certain is that the folks on the ground at Mountain Meadows thought they had authority from the highest level and afterwards felt betrayed and thrown to the wolves or gentiles as the case may be.

Somebody, at some level, did some lieing after the fact. The question is who? I have my opinion, but that is all it just and opinion and certainly not fact.

Yep, Charles you are alluding to what I have arrived at based on thirty years of interest and research. The wagon train took an unexpected turn south instead of heading west past Toole then across present day Nevada following the Humbolt River basin as Brigham Young gave them permission to go. Good thing too, as they would have possibly met their fate at the hands of the northern Mormon militia that had been dispatched to the area close to the present day Bonneville Salt Flats to "assist" the emmigrants by lightening their load of cattle. It is my understanding that after week or so without contact, the militia sent an express rider to Brigham. Upon hearing that the emmigrants had not followed Brigham's orders, he dispatched an APB to all corners of his fifedom. SO, it should be assumed that which evolved in southern Utah, was very much within the scope of Brigham Young's knowledge.

Oh yea, why was it that "Cove Fort" was built again? I forget. And, who was it that abducted the Governor of Arkansas's wife? Hmmmm

I stand corrected it was:

Second, Mormon Apostle Parley Pratt had gone on a mission to Arkansas. While there he decided to enact what Joseph Smith had taught him about plural marriage and Pratt stole the wife and children of Hector McLean. McLean shot Pratt right off his horse because of this. This didn’t sit well with the Mormons in Utah.

When the Fancher/Baker party (from Arkansas) showed up in Utah they looked at these people as being responsible for the death of Pratt and also Joseph Smith indirectly. Mormonism at that time taught that the blood of the prophets must be avenged (Young’s teaching of “blood atonement”). Historians agree that nothing could have taken place in Utah to the magnitude of MM Massacre without Young’s approval. Utah was run by Young and it was a theocracy.

[salvo]

I was born in St. George, both sides of my family lines go way back in the morman religion. My older brother has most of the family pictures from way back and has them all hanging in a room he calls "The Big Love" room
I was babtised into the Church but have never been very active.
Been to the site of the MMM many times, usually while deer hunting. It's only about 12 miles up the road from the family ranch.

[LeverBob]

Hey Pards....

In the 80's I lived in Murray, Utah amongst the mormons (8 yrs.). They treated me better than my own family. Shot Skeet 5 times a week at Holiday gun club. Shot skeet & trap in Ogden at Hill Rod & Gun. Shot the place up & won state championships. Played golf with my material suppliers (sometimes they had to pay my way) & had a dear friend (Duane Ward) who wound up owning one of the biggest ranches in Utah (near Coleville). He took me 'Yote hunting when I was destitute. The pelts paid the rent & then some. In talking with them I gained insight regarding this event.

Hunted dove in Skull Valley & called in 'yotes near Park City. Worked all over the state. Had a going Construction co. Loved the place. Lived in Vernal & fished myself sick at Strawberry resouvoir...hunted deer & bear at Diamond Mtn. & Fish Lake down south (Mytogi Mtn. area).

Got an Elk every year even though I was poor as a church mouse two years in a row. Mormon friends even paid my way. Never went hungry...never lacked shelter & never lacked friendship.

I don't agree with their faith...yet they showed more "christian charity" than most of the churches I've been in. To them I may have been a "Goyam". They still extended their friendship without reservation.

The generation that did the massacre did a wrong thing. They acted wrongly...however...I can see their point of view: they, having been chased across the country, were beset from every side & then established their own nation. The polity notwithstanding, their actions, from their point of view, seemed justified at the time. Objectivity demands consideration from all perspectives.
"Walk a mile in anothers mocassins"...

Today, we are beset from every side (or so it seems). Our rights trampled, our constitution shredded & illegal aliens marching in the streets demanding rights they don't have. Politicians acting outside their constitutional mandates & a culture that is degenerate at best. I often wonder when the majority of so called "Citizens" will rise up off their collective butts & get REAL involved. Seems to be happening & I'm involved (Tea Parties, NRA, etc.).

In the near future, events such as the Mountain Meadows Massacre may well happen frequently. Only those who will participate will truly be able to define all that really happened & why. Revolution or insurrection is a real messy business & atrocities will happen on both sides. "History is the polemic of the victor", W.F. Buckley.

I've been in combat...seen, heard & smelled real awful stuff. It is my hope that the current situation will be resolved thru the electoral process, however, if need be...then it will be resolved thru means that "would make a billygoat puke", Col. Trautmen. I puked... a number of times.

Finally...I would suggest that all of us should get real busy ensuring that the coming election cycle produces the nec. changes we all hope for, rather than having to resort to measures that would make the "Civil War" seem like a "Tea Party"?

The massacre is a historical fact...putting it in the proper perspective involves placing oneself in the times. I won't condemn, only pray for all those involved.

LB

[Booger Bill]

Lee was a adopted son of young. Lee wrote a auto biography that was released by his lawyer after lee was exicuted. I have a copy. At the end he was understandibly disinchanted with young. He still loved his morman brothers.
No way under no circumstances as a man can I tolerate his trickery in getting the francher party to laying down their arms knowing his army and indians was going to slaughter them all! I couldnt do that to a muslem terrorist.
I belive he had something like 20 wives and dozens of kids, probley 10,000 decendants by now.
Poligamy still goes on here. Here at the cedar city walmart you can regularly see some. Go to big stores in St George and you will see them. The numbers dont work. To make the highest state of heaven a FLDS (Fundamental later day saint) must have 3 wifes. They run off many of the teenage boys. Its competion for the old goats. There is a lot of serious retardnation in babys due to the weak gene pool. There is a large baby cemitary at hilldale with many unmarked and unexplained graves. A outsider gets off the road that runs through it, (Hilldale and Colorado city, their main twin towns) and you will likely be followed by thugs in escalades! This all was big news a year or two ago when they were hunting warren jeffs and had that big raid at eldorado texas. The news showed all the kids being taken by social services, so the liberals had a field day putting presure on the state. Probley 90% of the people in the country didnt know poligamists still existed and 90 % of the 10 % that did dont know jack about the problems it causes. Yet the public pressure by people that know nothing, has made the states tread lightly. The uproar has died down, but poligamy is alive and healthy in the west!

[Lawyer Daggit]

Thanks for an interesting exchange. I enjoyed reading this. History, where there is a human context is history at its most interesting.

I have acted for many mormons, and find them to be honest good living people.

[Booger Bill]

They are good people. We moved here 5 1/2 years ago. I think most of our neighbors are morman. Many times after snowstorms we have found our driveway and sidewalk shoveled. Neighbor Rick came over and insisted on putting our christmass lights on the roof. They all are real civic minded and there are many events always going on all over town.
Untill recently they left us alone as far as missionarys comeing to the door. Awhile back a neighbor brought a couple over, I thanked them for the concern for my soul, but told them I had my own brand of religion and wouldnt be changing. They respected that. Usualy they have sort of block partys, they are big on bringing some special food they made to the door once in awhile. A couple months ago about 6 late teens showed up at the door and offered to help out at anything we needed.
Now thats all not to say that I dont disagree with some of their beliefs. I highly do, in a few things I wont get into here. I will say unless you are retired, I dont think it would be a good idea to come here and open a business or be looking for work unless you were morman. I doubt you could get any kind of local goverment job, LEO, or whatever else job.
I am sure stuff happened, maybe less now, where the state and county goverment favored the religion, such as giveing the morman church free electric power to light up at st. george and not other denominations. That did happen, and I am told caused a stink and was challanged before we moved here. I also belive these people let their punjab bishops control their lives more than any minister I would let.
However, I really like these people and have had no bone to pick with any of them in my dealings so far!

[bdhold]

good people can be misguided, and good people who can be commanded to kill by their religious leaders...well, I'll leave it at that.
Hoping you accept this in context with the subject of the thread.

and I agree, this has been an interesting and entertaining topic to discuss and read about.

[Rusty]

I really don't have a dog in this fight. I don't know anything about the MMM and don't know much about the Mormons.

The first thing I heard about the movie that is being discussed here was that it came out right before Mitt Romney started going national with his Presidential campaign. After I heard a little about the movie it seemed tome that it was pretty dirty to put out a movie like that at the time they did as the only thing it could do would be to paint him in a bad light. It may have had some effect. we'll never know for sure.


I'd like to thank everyone here who has contributed to this thread for keeping things civil and on the up and up on this issue which I'm sure is still very emotional to some people to this day. It just goes to show the high caliber of folks we have here.

Happy Trails and God Bless,

[El Chivo]

there is absolutely no evidence to connect the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to the massacre and the Church has always denied any association with it.

I went to the LDS link about it and it seems to be very detailed. It sure doesn't deny any association, in fact the reverse, it explains what happened and why, and doesn't attempt to play it down at all.

One thing about the movie is the victims were painted as saints themselves, yet in the LDS account there was some friction over the Mormons' refusal to sell them supplies, things got a little heated and one of the emigrants tried provoking them by claiming to have the gun that killed Joseph Smith. Not a smart move.

Apparently the militia then began a limited attack to retaliate and maybe steal some cattle. They masqueraded as Indians and also Indians were included. But this got out of hand when one emigrant saw that some of the attackers were white men. He got back to the group with this news, and the fear of this getting out (all the way to California) is why the decision was made to slaughter everybody.

In the movie this was a little fuzzy, you were led to believe the idea was to massacre everybody from the beginning out of religious fervor. But I can see how the decision was made to try and cover up after their cover was blown.

I had never known of this happening, so it's quite a revelation to hear the story.

[Booger Bill]

I have researched the incident pretty heavley. There was confusion. John Lee while not the head of the militia, still seemed to be the man that had a lot of influance and who they used to carry out their plan. In those times from many other accounts all good mormans would have died or done anything asked for by the prophet. (Brigham Young). Young of course, was 250 miles away in SLC. He already had given orders to not sell anything at all to the immigrants. Trouble from that broke out and things got out of hand to say the least!
Remember, the U.S. Army was known to be marching from the east. The irate wagon train party had said they were going to california, relate about the bad treatment, raise a army there and come back from the west and fight.
I belive the indians were stirred up to harass the party. They were promised cattle. Some whites pitched in reportedly dressed like indians to lead them. They bit off more than they could chew, were found out, and now the morman militia was sure they had to wipe the entire party out lest word got out it was mormans and not indians. They were sure that if they didnt kill everyone that the entire U,S. Army would declare war on the territory. It is unsure just how big of a role B Young had. It is sure that every morman would downplay any role and would do everything they could to protect him. He was the prophet! Not just president!
This bit that the militia wiped out the party, and had nothing to do with being mormans, is beyound reason. Its like saying the 9-11 terrorists, just happen to have been muslems but being muslem extreamists had nothing to do with it!
Anyway, it all was 153 years ago. Nobody here had any part in it. Still, it is interesting!

[Lawyer Daggit]

I am not saying I agree with their beliefs. Whenever they stop at the house I also tell them not to worry about my soul- and they respect that.

Before he retired, my father's company was acquired by a Mormon tycoon named Huntsman, I was impressed by comments my father made about the civic mindedness of the company, and I was personally impressed by the companies emphasis on the family, ie their 'christian values' were lived- they were clearly into the substance and not just the form of religion, whereas I shudder at the number who attend churches who seem to leave their religion in the church porch as they walk out of church on Sunday. When you act for people as I do you get a strong feel for what they are really like.

[bdhold]

John M. Browning was a Mormon - Ogden, UT
as was Andrew MacAusland, who sold the first field-beat '78 to Winchester.

[firefuzz]

there is absolutely no evidence to connect the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to the massacre and the Church has always denied any association with it.

I went to the LDS link about it and it seems to be very detailed. It sure doesn't deny any association, in fact the reverse, it explains what happened and why, and doesn't attempt to play it down at all.

Your orginal comment of "Those nice respectable Mormons, it has me shocked." irritated me more than a little and in that mood I mis-stated what I intended to say which is that there is no evidence, only speculation, that this incident was ordered by Brigham Young. This type of topic is one I shouldn't have touched and won't touch again.

Rob

[bdhold]

this has been a very level-headed thread, short on accusation and loaded with apologetics.

[Booger Bill]

I may be nieve, but that one about the movie "september dawn" comeing out when it did, just to hurt romney in the election, I am not so sure about. I would have guessed it was a bad coincidence. Jon Voight who starred in the movie I think, is a outspoken conservative. I belive he would have had no known part in assisting obama winning the presidentcy. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/08/ ... 1357.shtml
The movie was given very bad reviews by the probley liberal critics. Sure, the movies theam was a love story that never happened, but what it did show regarding the massicure was accurate from all I have read. However it barely touched the rest of the story and didnt show the story of john doyle lee,s trials and exicution. It just stopped with the massicure. I thought it a great movie as far as it went, just didnt go far enough.
Really, the morman story overall is never ending. Their early perseicutions, setteling utah and the west, the mountain meadows massicure, and lately the off-shoot FLDS (fundamental latter day saints) rounding up the grand punjab, Warren Jeffs, and the fiasco on raiding the FLDS stronghold in el dorado texas takeing the kids etc. It seems to die down for years at a time, than blows up again. Its been that way for a 190 years now.

[Bogie35]

Who cares about Mitt Romney's campaign! He's the reason our president is Barack Hussein Obama! Halfway through the primaries, he "suspended" his campaign rather than "terminating" it, thus keeping anyone else from receiving the delegates he had won! The direct result was that McCain won the Republican Nomination, making my vote in the primaries utterly meaningless. And seeing that McCain is such a moron, it guaranteed the win for Obama. So...Mitt Romney??????

bogie

[2571]

I am not a Mormon, but my GGMother was.

What is a "GGMother"? Great Grandmother? Godmother of some sort?

[Charles]

That is geneology speak for Great Grand Mother.