**NEW PICS***38-40 Lesmok Ammo-- Old 32-20 Ammo

[Sixgun]

Well, This thread has been generating interest on the old heads here who like the dash numbers. Today, when I got home from work, I dug out a 110 year old partial box of U.S Cartridge Company 38 WCF (38-40) ammo loaded with Lesmok, which is blackpowder and something else--here is where we need our resident expert Jack Kort (w30wcf) to verify the age and the chemical components of this stuff.

On the back of the front lid, is written in pencil, "Deer Camp, 1925" and on the front of the lid is a little tag that says, "The Gremmill Co. Sporting Goods, 400 River St. *&%$#, Troy, NY.

Anyway, the ammo looks real good so I shot a couple of rounds out of an 1892 Winchester SRC, made in 1905. LOTS of smoke--just like blackpowder and the chronograph read 1229 fps 10' from the muzzle.----Sixgun

Some 1940's 180 gr. smokeless chronoed 1335


Howdy fellow guncranks,
I went to this auction last week and in addition to an old well used 94 SRC, I snagged 8 boxes of factory 32-20 ammo. 6 of the boxes were perfect and full while the other 2 were partial boxes along with the empty brass that the previous owner.

Anyway, I decided to shoot the partial boxes along with some other old factory 32-20 ammo I had laying around. Read the boxes as some of the Remington is loaded with 80 gr. mushroom bullets. As all of this ammo was made in the forties to fifties, and possibly as late as the very early sixties, I dug out an old 1955 Gun Digest to see what velocity this ammo was advertised as.

Test gun was my old tried and true 2nd year production 1892 with a 24" barrel. This gun has logged over 7,000 rounds and it's still tight. . Who knows what was shot out of it before I bought it ($300 ) back in 1974.

All ammo fired perfectly.

No group testing was done. I just blasted it in my backyard bullet trap. Yea, I know, its not much of a test but I thought you boys would enjoy the somewhat anticipated results. ------------------------Sixgun

Rem-Umc 80 gr. "mushroom". Advertised @ 2,100, chronoed at 1,894. Not bad, these babies were loud.

Rem-Umc 100 gr. lead. Advertised at 1290, chronoed at 1190

Rem-Umc 100 gr. jacketed. Advertised at 1290. Chronoed at 1054

WRA 100 gr. lead. Advertised at 1290. Chronoed at 1230

New W-W 100 gr. lead. Advertised at 1210. Chronoed at 1212



And NO! I ain't chronographing this stuff, but I will when I get near Terry's age. Its a perfect full box of blackpowder 32-20 from 1898.

[2ndovc]

Good stuff Jack!!

I've got a couple boxes like that of the Remingtons in 32-20 and .25 -20.
How old would you say those are?

Good score on the BP box too!!!

jb

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I'm bettin' he bought most of that stuff off the shelves when it was new.

[Chuck 100 yd]

Cool! Good post.

[Sixgun]

Cool! Good post.

Jason, The Winchester stuff has the WRA headstamp which was discontinued in 1961.
These box designs were in production from after the great war to 1960 or so.

Mcnutjob--comeo on! Nobody is as old as Terry.....but..................as a late teenager and into my 20's, these box styles were common in gunshops in small towns in the mountains. Even then, I had a passion (fetish? ) for the old stuff and while deer hunting, I used to say to the boys, "lets go to town" and off I'd go buying up all I could afford. I probably have 4-500 boxes of the old stuff in all kinds of obsolete & semi modern calibers.

I'm gonna wait 'till I'm in my sixties and then go shoot about half of it up. In fact, several years ago I shot up a half dozen boxes of 32-40's at rocks and steel.

It may be weird but I guess its better than hanging out in bars. ------------Sixgun

[kimwcook]

I'm bettin' he bought most of that stuff off the shelves when it was new.

Now that's funny, right there.

[Tumbleweeds II]

Does that old Gun Digest say what pressure those 80 grain cartridges ran?

I know I don't want to shoot any HV ammo in my old Colt, but I have an 1880s Remington rolling block and I'm curious as to whether it would handle the HV. Everything I read says "modern" rifles like Winchester 92s, Marlin 94s, Savage 23s, and Remington 25s will work, and pistols and Winchester 73s won't handle it, but where does the roller fall?

[TedH]

Neat stuff!

[KirkD]

Very interesting, Jack. That 1898 ammo would be extremely interesting, since it is BP. Then we could compare it with modern BP loads to see how close to FFFg they chrono'd. Come to think of it, Jack, you only need one or two cartridges for your collection anyway.

[Mike D.]

Does that old Gun Digest say what pressure those 80 grain cartridges ran?

I know I don't want to shoot any HV ammo in my old Colt, but I have an 1880s Remington rolling block and I'm curious as to whether it would handle the HV. Everything I read says "modern" rifles like Winchester 92s, Marlin 94s, Savage 23s, and Remington 25s will work, and pistols and Winchester 73s won't handle it, but where does the roller fall?

I once fired a Peters HV .44-40 through my 1902 Colt SAFSS. WOW!! No harm, but what a snap. I couldn't figure out what happened until the case was ejected. WHEW. Thankfully, those old guns are tougher than we think.

[Mike D.]

You got me thinkin', Jack, maybe I'll chrono some old HV .25-20s that I have around here. There are at least five boxes of 1940s-50s Remington, Peters, and Winchester .25-20 60 grain OPEs out in the garage.

[w30wcf]

Sixgun,
Nice find! Thank you for the ballistic data.

Jason,
THe Remington boxes date between 1946 and 1960. The Winchester boxes 1946 -1958.

Tumbleweeds,
Pressures for the WHV loadings were reported to be around 22,000 psi

Mike D.,
It would be interesting to see what your vintage 25-20 cartridges are doing ballistically.
Earlier this year I tested some 1960's vintage 25-20 WHV 60 gr ctgs in a 20" carbine.
They averaged 2,134 f.p.s. The cataloged velocity was 2,250 f.p.s. which was taken in a longer 24" barrel


Also tested some 1935 Vintage 25-20 High Velocity 86 gr. factory cartridges.
Surprisingly, at 1,769 f.p.s. avg. they exceeded their catalog ballistics of 1,730 f.p.s.


w30wcf

[KirkD]

This whole thread has got me to thinking that it would be a good idea to construct a small database of old cartridges, actual chronographed velocity, and what type of firearm they were fired in, and barrel length. I am especially intrigued by original BP cartridges. I have a lot of factory data, but actual chronographed results are even more interesting. The big question in my mind is, 'how well does the published velocities in old catalogues, such as the 1898 Winchester Catalogue, compare with actual chronograph results?'

[w30wcf]

Several years ago I picked up 2 boxes of 1934-1945 vintage 44-40 REM-UMC boxes. The boxes were in fair shape but the ammunition was excellent. Factory ballistics were 1,310 f.p.s. back then and after 60+ years of storage they still had plenty of gusto since the chronographed velocity was 1,335 f.p.s.

These days I use those balloon head cases for shooting black powder.



w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Kirk,
The early 44 WCF b.p. ammo had a cataloged velocity of 1,245 f.p.s. In 1910, that was increased to 1,301 f.p.s. I tried firing some early W.R.A. CO. .44 W.C.F. cartridges but the primers were dead. I replaced them with small pistol primers and the average velocity was 1,271 f.p.s. in a 21" barrel and 1,291 f.p.s. in a 24" barrel.

I don't know when those cartridges were manufactured since they were not in a box. I do know that they were pre 1929 since they had small primer pockets. Factory ballistics were taken in a 24" barrel and adding 10 f.p.s. for the 15 feet to the start screen - 1,291 f.p.s., I would say that the 1,301 f.p.s. ballistics were "spot on".

w30wcf

[Sixgun]

btt

[KirkD]

Very glad to have that 38-40 data for those old cartridges. I'm surprised at that Lesmok/BP stuff just giving 1,229 fps. Thank you very much for this post. I just love this stuff.

[cshold]

I am going to become real interested in this 38-40 round
here in about an hour. Meeting up with rjohns94 (Mike)
to do a little horse trading.

KirkD, any info. you can pass my way, please do

[w30wcf]

Sixgun,
Interesting data regarding the 38-40 LESMOK ammo. Did they all fire ok?

I recently tested some UMC .44-40 LESMOK ammunition that I bought from Gunbroker. I tried firing 8 of the rounds but only 5 would fire and with a somewhat delayed reaction....click..bang. Average velocity was 1,397 f.p.s.

I then dissected 10 cartridges, annealed the cases, and replaced the primers with Rem small rifle primers. I then replaced the powder (27 grs. average weight) and the bullet after replacing the dried out lube with SPG. Wow! THey ran across the screens at 1,483 f.p.s. average and were supposidly safe to use in a '73.

w30wcf

[jlchucker]

Sixgun and W30wcf, those photos you posted take me back to my boyhood in the 1950's. The two stores in my village both carried ammunition, and one of those stores had been in business since 1905. His shelves were stocked with ammo packaged like the pictures you guys posted. In fact, he had a couple of boxes of 38-40 and 25-20 exactly the same as your pics. My father, in the 1950's, won a Savage model 23 in 25-20 in a raffle at the factory he worked in. A retired preacher was raffling stuff off, and Dad claimed it was the only thing he ever won. When he brought it home, we small boys thought he'd won a 22. The gun came with a box each of Winchester and Remmie ammo, in the same style packaging. We boys pretty much learned how to shoot with that ammo. I never got a deer with Dad's 25-20, but one of my brothers got several.

[Sixgun]

Jack,
This old Lesmok ammo looks like it was made yesterday. I only fired a half dozen and they all went off instantanously (if thats how you spell that word ) I saved about 20 and I'm going to use them on the pigs at the next Pa. State Champs.

Jlchucker, Yes, this old stuff is better than a $100,000 Hummer! I bless myself for buying up all I could back in the seventies and on.

Kirk, I'm working on deciding which ammo I want to blast up first. I'm probably going to do 2 calibers at a time to save time and energy on cleaning up the guns.

Just a portion of it all

[cshold]

Please pass the drool rag

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Please pass the drool rag

Yeah, me too.

[w30wcf]

Sixgun,
Thank you for the update. Since those cartridges fired without hesitation, it could be that the primers might be corrosive since that ammo was likely made during that time period. If you haven't already, best to clean the barrel appropriately just to be on the safe side.

THanks for the neat vintage ammo pic.

jlchucker,
Glad we brought back some memories. THank you for sharing yours....... Neat!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

U.M.C. 44-40 LESMOK pic Wish I had the top of the box.

[w30wcf]

Jack,
.......I saved about 20 and I'm going to use them on the pigs at the next Pa. State Champs.

Sixgun,
Now, that would be neat. Like stepping back in time...........

w30wcf

[Bryan Austin]

Every time I discover a great post, I see John right in the middle of it

[Mike D.]

I ran a few 1950s vintage Peters HV .44-40s over my Chrony a few years ago and they averaged 1610 FPS. Accuracy was not that good from my '92 carbine because the late barrel that it has is .430 and the old stuff measured .428.

[cshold]

Well, This thread has been generating interest on the old heads here who like the dash numbers. Today, when I got home from work, I dug out a 110 year old partial box of U.S Cartridge Company 38 WCF (38-40) ammo loaded with Lesmok, which is blackpowder and something else--here is where we need our resident expert Jack Kort (w30wcf) to verify the age and the chemical components of this stuff.

On the back of the front lid, is written in pencil, "Deer Camp, 1925" and on the front of the lid is a little tag that says, "The Gremmill Co. Sporting Goods, 400 River St. *&%$#, Troy, NY."

Anyway, the ammo looks real good so I shot a couple of rounds out of an 1892 Winchester SRC, made in 1905. LOTS of smoke--just like black powder and the chronograph read 1229 fps 10' from the muzzle.----Sixgun

Some 1940's 180 gr. smokeless chronoed 1335

Some trivial who cares anyway information
What's there now:
King Venetian Blind & Drapery Inc. 1946
http://kingblindstroy.iarbiz.com/d_3c9gkv7Us=

[Sixgun]

Dang Cas,
How did you find this thread? Its almost as old as me.

Funny thing you brought this up as I got to foolin' with that old box of Lesmokes over the weekend. As there is only a dozen or so rounds left, I might as well blast em off. I'll save you a few to when we ever catch up at the York show.

Venetian blinds now occupies the site of the old hardware store? What a joke.----6

[Griff]

I hadn't seen this thread when it originally ran, but reading it thru makes me gotta ask... when you bought that ammo at the gun show in 2010, was it as expensive as the rifle you shot it in?

[Mike Armstrong]

Great topic!

Regarding Sixguns' first post, the Gremmill Sporting Goods company apparently died during WWII. It was in the part of Troy that was/is the commercial center, and also the part that floods periodically from "spring" (now apparently anytime!) flooding of the Hudson River. In the 1920s deer were very uncommon in most of that area due to heavy agricultural use and subsistence hunting (many people still jacklighted deer in those days). The rural parts of that area along the Vermont/Mass/Conn. borders were poor and pretty lawless (some still are). Now, of course, deer are as common as fleas on a hound dog, and about as welcome by farmers and suburban gardeners.

I used to run a metal detector around under the huge old trees that had been property markers back when all that area was cleared for agriculture. You could tell them by their species (usually oaks), their growth pattern (grew "out" instead of "up" like forest trees do) and their size. Most were in state forestry lands that had been taken for taxes back in the 1920s and 30s when the farmers starved out, and replanted with conifers for logging/pulp. Many had remains of wood tree stands in them, or obvious iron climbing rungs on their trunks. Found lot of interesting stuff that had fallen out of hunters pockets over the years, from watches and coins and knives to MANY unfired cartridges from the post-Civil War period to the 1950s, including some odd calibers like .38 ACP softnose (what a great deer choice!). And of course a myriad of fired cases.

Regarding Tumbleweed's question about the Remington Rolling Block, Frank de Haas' book "Single Shot Rifles and Actions" has extensive coverage of rollers. If you have a #1, 1 1/2, or 5 (the big military-sized actions) in good shape, they will take anything a .32-20 or .25-20 can dish out, HV or not. If it is a #2 (medium action) as I suspect, he says he knows of #2s converted to .25-20 and .357 that have worked out fine. If it is a #4 (the little .22 action), forget it.

I'll check Ken Waters' "Pet Loads" to see if Ken ever shot HV-level loads in a #2 roller.

My own question is about whether this gun is an original Remington, or whether it has been converted to a Winchester caliber? If it's a conversion, I'd check it out to make sure it was done right and the firing pin hole is bushed or otherwise reduced to avoid any gas leak there.

And if you do shoot it with HVs, I'd borrow a welder's mask and gloves to wear the first time. Not conducive to precise aiming, but neither are blind eyes nor missing fingers! At a pinch, I'd say you can rent these from an equipment rental place.

And let us know WHAT HAPPENED!!!!

Mike Armstrong

[cshold]

Dang Cas,
How did you find this thread? Its almost as old as me.

Funny thing you brought this up as I got to foolin' with that old box of Lesmokes over the weekend. As there is only a dozen or so rounds left, I might as well blast em off. I'll save you a few to when we ever catch up at the York show.

Venetian blinds now occupies the site of the old hardware store? What a joke.----6

I remembered making a post the exact day I traded Mike my B92 for his
Winchester model 73. I wanted to document that info. in the paper work I
have on the rifle. It took awhile, but as you can see, I indeed found it.

[Sixgun]

Here's a few I just took





Deer season 1925

[cshold]

Thanks 6,
a few of us are now making our drool rags wet