best AR for the money...

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 11:48 am

what is the best AR for the money.....
I am interested for a couple of reasons......
fun to shoot.....and defense...
I kinda like the smaller, compact ARs....in 223

any advise on rock river arms....
DPMS, Bushmaters....Smith and Wesson M&P

Remingtons new AR...I think is part of bushmaster

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:15 pm

RIHMFIRE wrote:what is the best AR for the money.....
I am interested for a couple of reasons......
fun to shoot.....and defense...
I kinda like the smaller, compact ARs....in 223

any advise on rock river arms....
DPMS, Bushmaters....Smith and Wesson M&P

Remingtons new AR...I think is part of bushmaster

The best for the money is any 1 that will shoot and they will pretty much ALL do that. U can buy upper kits online without an FFL and buy Your Lower local. Shop around , U should be able to put one together for less than $750. If U r a really good shopper like Me , U can do a lot better than that. I have a couple that I have less than $600 in.
The question is really wide open , caint wait to see the responses.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 12:39 pm

psssst...save up and buy a M1A.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:35 pm

I heard someone saying the best bang for the buck out there now is a "Tacticol" or something like that. IIRC it doesn't come with any iron sights but instead comes as a flat top with a rail. It's made by one of the major manufacturers.

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 2:44 pm

BCM right now is the best bang

for the buck. Bushmaster, DPM... pretty much are plinking rifles in the minds of AR fans. They believe the AR is a battle rifle and the civilian versions should be held to the same standard,which I agree, the price point for a tested battle rifles and the "others" are really close. http://www.bravocompanyusa.com/ So why not go with what the folks who defend us and ours use.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:13 pm

I'd say BCM or S&W. Colt is of course excellent but pricier. I'm an armorer for an agency with over a dozen in service. The last several I've ordered have been S&W. The only ones I've had problems with have been Bushmasters (we have Colt, S&W, and Bushmaster) but I've been able to fix them and keep them running once fixed.

O.S.O.K. · Post by **O.S.O.K.** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:19 pm

OK, here's the scoop.

Do not buy a complete rifle. A complete rifle is subject to the graham-pittman excise tax.

Buy a stripped lower ($100) - this will include the graham-pittman tax too. This is the "legal firearm" that needs to go through an FFL dealer.

Then buy a "rifle kit" that is a complete upper and all the guts for the lower along with the furniture. None of this has the excise tax. Kits start at $469. This shipps to your door as it's just "parts".

Do the math - $569 for the rifle or carbine. Now, that's for a moly chrome barrel -= not chrome-lined. That's usually another $40, so $609 for the rifle/carbine.

You basically save $150-$200 by going this route.

Do not worry about assembly - it is very easy and takes no special tools and there are all kinds of videos available on youtube showing you how to do the assembly - which will take maybe an hour if you go really slow.

I have three carbines that I assembled and they are all quality units - all shoot MOA with an optic.

Here is the last one that I put together: ("middy" - 16" barrel with mid-length handguards - lets you attach a bayonet)

go to http://www.del-ton.com - click on the left bar menu item "rifle kits" and you will see what I'm talking about.

I chose Stag lowers for my AR's but there are all kinds of them - CMMG is a good reasonably priced lower.

donw · Post by **donw** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:20 pm

if you're wanting a dual (plinking/SD) role AR, i would suggest you look into the bushmaster series...if you want a serious 'hunting' AR, Stag arms makes a very fine AR for that express purpose. (that's to name just two i can think of right off hand) there are more good one around, though.

most 'serious' hunting AR's offer 1 MOA accuracy right out of the box (some offer smaller)...many, some SD carbines do not offer that accuracy...I've seen some that say up to 3 MOA for SD

another serious factor to consider about a dedicated SD 'carbine' is the in-hand weight; some of the hunting models will weigh in at nearly 9 pounds. smaller dedicated SD models are in 6 pound level...when you add lasers, scopes, sights, bi-pods and such...you've got an AR that will touch the 11-12 pound mark if you're not very selective in the accessories you choose.

the AR is an excellent platform to own a true "dual purpose" rifle/carbine, though thru selection of different 'uppers'

right now, i know what you mean, though...I'm leaning towards a Stag arms M6...i live in kaliphornia and we're very limited in the AR field as to what we may own.

a lot of what you may end up with depends on far you're willing to open your wallet.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:24 pm

Rock Rivers usually come with a very nice two stage trigger and that's something to consider. I have a DPMS M4-type carbine and it's fine, goes bang every time, and is inherently more accurate than my Mini-14. For what it is and what little I paid for it I like it:

Here are some thoughts of mine regarding ARs:

- Mine has the standard "carbine" length hand guard and gas block location. I have since decided that I prefer a "mid-length" hand guard on a 16" carbine. Look at Rock River's web site and you'll see what I mean.

- I've also decided that while the grenade launcher cut in the barrel is very authentic looking, it's also stupid on a sporting carbine. My next AR will not have it.

- Free floating hand guards are a must for the best in accuracy and they add about a hundred bucks (or much more) to the cost of your AR (mine is a Yankee Hill Machine unit that I had retrofitted).

- Collapsible but stocks come in a wide variety of types and styles and all of the ones that you really would like are expensive. The standard M4 unit is functional but not terribly comfortable on the cheek.

- If you buy a "flat top" you will need to budget for an optic or for back up iron sights (BUIS in AR speak) and they are both amazingly expensive when it comes to dedicated AR stuff.

- If you buy a unit with a fixed carrying handle your choice of optics and optic mounts is limited.

- If you get a unit with a detachable carrying handle and fixed front sight (like mine) you may have to look at it through your optic (depends upon magnification).

- My optic is "co-located" which means that I can flip up my rear BUIS and actually sight straight through the 1x sight without having to remove it. This is kind of nice and something to consider if you're going to get a 1x red dot sight.

- It's fun to customize them and tinker with them.

- Some ARs are "mil-spec" and some are a less common civilian industry standard. Mil-spec ARs will always say so and they are generally considered more desirable. Bargain ARs like my DPMS are civilian standard (there's a name for this standard and it escapes me). Remington R-15s, for example, are made by DPMS and they are civvie standard as well. This is not a huge issue because many aftermarket parts come in both flavors and it doesn't affect things like the rails or ability to mount sights etc. - it mostly has to do with stocks and hand guards and some internal pieces.

- Some ARs come with chrome lined bores and some do not. If you're looking to blast away with many thousands of rounds of cheap mil-surp ammo then perhaps the chrome bore is the best option. In my case I was shopping for price point (I got my DPMS two years ago for $699) and I had zero concerns regarding chrome lined or not. Some will claim that chrome lined barrels are not as inherently accurate as non-chromed and while this is undoubtedly true for match grade rifles made for ultimate accuracy (expensive in other words) I don't know that the difference matters much at all for standard weight barrels built into carbines made to a price point etc.

- AR aficionados can be very, uh...catty regarding AR manufacturers and the parts available for them...and I'm being nice in how I say that. DPMS and Remington ARs routinely shoot sub MOA and go bang every time but they are not "mil spec" so they get little respect from the peanut gallery at some shooting ranges if that sort of thing matters to you. If you're at all worried about someone at the beach kicking sand on your $700 AR then you need to save up more money and get something with more street cred with that kind of crowd. I couldn't care less, but that's just me. Hey, I own and like a Mini-14 so that already puts me on the out with the AR crowd.

- If I were getting a top shelf AR I'd get something from Les Baer Custom. Lewis Machine & Tool makes outstanding ARs. Bravo Company seems to be highly respected and everyone I know who owns a Rock River likes it (frankly the same is true of DPMS and Bushmaster) and Stag as well.

Cheers,
Oly

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:31 pm

I second the M1A. I've owned both and find the M1A much more practical/useful. I currently own 2 M1A's but haven't had an AR in over 10 years. If I were to get one it would be a piston version. My 2 cents.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:43 pm

7.62 power in a size of a ruger 10/22 or a M1 carbine

mine has been 100% right out of the box.

pete

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:44 pm

I have a Bushmaster HB 20" A2. I have been happy with the performance. Because of the fixed carry handle optics are difficult to mount. However for what I wanted it for (HD and plinking) it does fine. I dont like to rely on optics that require batteries and the rifle itself is about as "bulleproof" as an AR can be. While the 308/7.62 NATO is a superior round as far as range and stopping power I believe for you intended purposes you will be happy with the AR. IMHO for HD a 308 just has too much power unless you live in the boonies and then again its still not as cheap when it comes to plinking. One word of caution is to stay away from steel cased 223/5.56. Steel cases and ARs don't mix well.

RustyJr

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 4:55 pm

@ Rusty--- One word of caution is to stay away from steel cased 223/5.56. Steel cases and ARs don't mix well.
HUH ! Why ?

RustyJr · Post by **RustyJr** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:11 pm

I tested it for myself to make sure it was true, but if you fire steel cased ammo in an AR and then shoot brass behind it, it causes the brass to stick. If Im not mistaken the cause seems to be from the laquer on the steel cases coming off in the chamber when it gets hot. My rule of thumb is if its a combloc style weapon (sks, AK, etc.) shoot whatever you want in it. Otherwise I stick with brass. Honestly as cheap as I find brass 223 I see no point in buying non-reloadable steel cases.

RustyJr

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:42 pm

Deleted

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 5:54 pm

Nice Guns Steve, but wheres Your Bullet Button-lol-Those things r dangerous without them. Besides they scare People without a "BULLET BUTTON"
I have the parts to build a Carbine with a lo-pro gas block and a middy Free Float Tube to cover things up.Just for a diff variation.
So for the OP,go for IT
Funny thing, I took My 94 Trapper to show a Friend today and his Wife says "is that one of those fancy AR things U have" That Guy could sneak any thing in and She wouldn't know.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:13 pm

Bullet Buttons!! Those of us lucky enough to live in Colorado don't have to bother with those stupid restrictions on EBRs you folks in CA have had forced upon you. Seriously, I grew up in northern CA (San Jose / Campbell) but left in 1980 when I realized that the anti business, anti infrastructure, and very liberal politics were the thing of the future for the state.

A shame because CA is one beautiful place, it's just got about 20 - 30 million too many residences. Heck, New Zealand has about the same land area as CA considering both islands and it's total population currently is only about 4.4 million vs California's current population of 37.0 million!!!

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:15 pm

I'll second the SOCOM16!

I have one and I love it!!
When something really needs to be F'd up the SOCOM gets all the fun!!

As far as the AR, get a Colt! You won't regret it. I've had my Sporter Lightweight since '93.
I have yet to expierience a missfire or jam even shooting cheap surplus ammo.

jb

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 6:23 pm

I shoot at DCM shooting matches (so I have to follow certain regulations)
I have 2 bought new preban 1991 Colt Match HBARS(#6601) consecutive serial numbers that provide the results I need at that level.
Imagine many of the copies are also pretty good too?
Kinda like that deal with single action cowboy shooting? (Make mine a Colt)

And a older one at that!

But not before the #6601's came out!
The SP1's dont cut it!
Thats what many of us early on DCM "Black Toy" shooters started out on and the NM M1A and NM M1 used to beat up on us.
Then some of us got these #6601's and WHAM---pretty soon a bunch of them guys are shooting the "Black Toys"

Isnt life grand!

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:05 pm

I used to work for an AR manufacturer.

For your purposes, Bravo Company, or a Colt 6920.

RRA, Bushmaster are "decent" for the money if properly put together (some are not). S&W's out of the box are a good bang for the buck (I have 2 bought when a possible ban was imminent and I was freshly home from 3 yrs in Europe).

Avoid DPMS.

Avoid Olympic.

Piston ARs do work, however, for long term durability, many don't. The only piston I would buy is an LWRC, because they "do" work under hard use. However, Stoner ran piston guns himself and designed the AR as a direct impingement for a reason.

If you have a fully assembled lower, a LaRue Stealth upper offers insane accuracy, however, they're not cheap (you get what you pay for).

M1As are nice rifles however making them accurate and STAY THAT WAY can be interesting.

rogn · Post by **rogn** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 9:47 pm

Ive heard there are some sales going on currently with Bushmasters going for abt 600. I think it may be at Cabelas. Ive a DPMS, which has always gone bang, can get a coke can at 400yds on the second shot(after spotter), has a dredful trigger, weighs abt 6 #. Works everytime and is a good tractor gun. Also have a FAR-15 varmit special which weighs abt 11# , has RRA target trigger, is nice and accurate, hard to tote , also goes bang every time. As was said before best is what you want it for. Hardcore guns will tend to be over 1000,- LMT, Bravo co, Colt- these are thought well of by the serious military, LEO etc. Baer and such are super accurate but may be too precise for heavy duty use-more for militery target use. But really, for soft targets and homee defense my little 92 in 45 colt is more appealing all the time. There was an article by Mike Venturino a year or so ago where he attended a LEO type clinic and the instructor requested he bring one of his leverguns, all the folks with the tricked out ARs snickered a bit , but when classes were over the instructer told the LEO types to notice Mr. Venturinos targets all had the bullet holes in the middle! Not nearly as helter skelter as the semiauto targets.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 21, 2010 10:15 pm

pwl44m wrote:Nice Guns Steve, but where's Your Bullet Button...?

For others like me who were clueless about what that was...

< link > - "Bullet Buttons"

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:13 am

I have a DPMS. It has never had a single failure. I am going to replace the trigger soon as I want a smoother, adjustable pull. The barrel is not chrome lined, but the accuracy is better than my old M16A2 ever could have hoped for. I am also going to get a kit for the upper in another caliber, though 6.8SPC is what I am leaning toward at the moment.

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 11:32 am

" SORRY" I guess I should have esplained the Bullet Button. It really is a safety feature that We in Kalif. take pride in. If U have a hunderd Commies commin at U, they have to wait while U fumble for Your tool to drop Your 10 round mag.Heaven forbid that U save Your life with the 11th or 12th round from a 30 rd mag. And for those of U who dont know,with a bullet button U caint C /flash hider/pistol grip/telescopic butt/30 rd mag. all those evil features characteristic of EBRs ( evil black rifle ) Sorry - forgot to turn on Rant Mode. it's off now
We got a little rain last nite
As to the original Poster- do U know any more than U did some 23 posts ago ? LOL No matter what U buy first , U are not finished. I started out just picking up 1 in a 7 gun purchase. I now have 10, so go figger.

dsmith512 · Post by **dsmith512** » Fri Oct 22, 2010 9:19 pm

If you are not dead set on the AR platform you should take a look at the Kel-Tec SU16.

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/rifles/su-16c-2/

It shoots 223 and takes AR15 mags. It is very compact.
For more great pics checkout Olek Volk's site http://olegvolk.livejournal.com/

The M1A, M1 carbine, AR15, and the Kel-Tec SU-16 are all great platforms. I have shot them all and each has strengths and weaknesses. I would recommend trying them out at a good gun range to see which one you like best. Or for real enjoyment get one of each

Here's a couple of SU16 pics. It even fires in the folded position

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 12:53 am

The SU16 is basically a "travel gun". I wouldn't count on it sustaining sustained fire or hard use. More of a backpacking rifle that's bigger than a .22, or a "I need a gun really bad" semi-disposable piece you can leave in the trunk with a couple mags.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 8:54 am

MrMurphy wrote:However, Stoner ran piston guns himself and designed the AR as a direct impingement for a reason.

What were his reasons? I always wondered why he decided to shoot hot barrel-gas all the way back into the receiver, but I've never read exactly what the anticipated (and/or resultant) benefits really were.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 9:24 am

rogn wrote:But really, for soft targets and home defense my little 92 in 45 colt is more appealing all the time.

Yep.

Everyone needs to have an AR-15 or other 'EBR', just because. Because they can, and because it irritates would-be despots, and makes them easier to spot; if you never vote for a politician who wants to ban EBR's, you'll likely never vote in someone who is all that bad...! (...stupid, maybe, but at least not an idiot with tyrannical ambition...)

Anyway, I'd much rather fire my .45 Colt levergun in the house, than any .223, because I don't want to go deaf after one shot, and the 'bad guy' isn't going to be stopped any faster with a .223 Rem than a .45 Colt. (Now if I had a suppressor maybe I'd reconsider, but can you imagine the drooling LEO's looking for a reason to confiscate and keep your weapon, and the stupid 'journalists' who would obligingly portray you as a killer-psycho to facilitate that? No WAY I'd want to use a suppressed firearm for self-defense, unless there was literally no alternative...

)

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:24 am

Deleted

missionary5155 · Post by **missionary5155** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 10:49 am

Greetings
I have built some lowers and they are not that hard and as stated shop about and you can get the parts on sales.
Uppers abound ! I think I have 3 different styles.
I also have M1A´s and FAL´s... personally there is little difference in acuracy between the two. All mine are not accurized and they will all do about the same with Surplas ammo. If I could only take 1 it would be my M1A with a fiberglas stock set ( Fred´s) I would not loose sleep if it was a FAL.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 4:13 pm

COSteve,

I agree that for HD the M1 carbine is a great choice. In an updated platform with the right ammo it is an excellent performer. It doesn't have the blast or flash of 7.62 or 5.56 but is way beyond a handgun cartridge at close range. That was the rifle and cartridges intention from the start.

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sat Oct 23, 2010 7:16 pm

Yep the M1 Carbine is much better than a handgun but comparing it's 110grn bullet at 1950fps (929lb/ft ME) to my .357mag Rossi carbine's 158grn bullet at 1825fps (1,164lb/ft ME) makes it a simple call as the Rossi has significantly more ME (25% more) which is why it's a tossup for me in a HD role. They both are the same length and have almost the same loaded weight. However, the levergun has more ME but the M1 has a simpler operation under stress and higher capacity. I'd actually be comfortable with either of them as long as it was close.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:35 am

Lighter weight, less moving parts (most piston-ARs tend, from what i've seen, to be less accurate, but some of the newer ones have caught up) was the primary idea from what I understand. DI rifles have been around a long time. The French MAS49 and MAS49/56, which is essentially their M14 (used from 1949-1980ish in Vietnam, Algeria and many other nasty little places) are DI rifles and have a solid reputation for reliability among the hardest users (French Foreign Legion) as well as the Swedish AG42 Ljungmann and a few other designs.

As to going deaf, crank off anything indoors, it's going to be loud. Having burned off a 175 round burst of 7.62 Nato blanks inside a concrete bunker, even with earplugs it was pretty deafening. Auditory exclusion tends to kick in during the moment though, as I did a force-on-force entry with an 8 man fire team, and between the 8 of us we expended around 200-250 rounds in less than a minute inside a concrete building (not counting the five "bad guys" either who all got off a mag or two). Didn't hear much while it was going on, concentrating too much on other things.

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 6:26 am

Fella at the range yesterday had an interesting AR. I don't know anything more than what I've read in this thread about AR's, but this fella was shooting a Bushmaster .450. Man, that thing was CAPABLE.

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:57 am

Steve,

No question, the .357 out of a carbine is a thing of beauty. I find the M1 carbine a little more usable as a defensive platform but the lever action carbine is never a bad choice. Early lever actions were designed as much for defense as hunting, the first assault weapons if you will.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 8:54 am

Here are a few AR's.

The one I built for my daughter. I got lazy on this one, used a complete RRA upper for it and just changed out the forend for a FF tube. Stag lower, DPMS internals, CAA stock. Bushnell scope, flip up BUIS sights, gun will shoot 1" or so with most ball ammo.

This is my heavy, complete build by me. Stag lower with RRA internals including match trigger, 24" Armalite SS 1" in 8" match barrel with a FF tube, MagPul adjustable stock, 10x Super Sniper scope. This gun hovers around a nickel sized group with PMC FMJ, I haven't had time to try and work up good loads for it, I'm expecting sub 1/2" groups with good ammo.

This is my son's Colt, with the exception of the CAA stock and Smith's Enterprise's muzzle brake it's all factory. The gun will shoot an 1" with almost anything. The Eotech is now back on the next gun, my ultra-light.

This is my ultra-lite, Colt Lady Colt (pretty rare) A1 upper with a Bushmaster lower, CAA stock. The Eotech is now on this gun. With the irons or the Eotech it'll stay under 2" @ 100 yds with most FMJ ammo. This is my bad times, throw in the truck gun. Just the bare gun is under 6 pounds.

Building AR's is easy, as long as you buy complete uppers. Just a little harder if you build your own upper but you do have to have a couple of speciality tools that aren't worth buying for just one or two guns, I've built a couple of dozen at least.

With recent company buy outs I don't know who owns/makes a lot of the new brands, S&W and Remington come to mind quickly. Two of my buds have bought the S&W M&Ps (CDNN had these guns for about $600 not too long ago) and have had no problems with them. Some people say that DPMS is stuff, I don't know....I've used a lot of their parts in builds with no problems except one bent bolt release that they quickly replaced. Avoid Olympic Arms like the plague, I've yet to see one that didn't have some kind of major problem within the first 500 rounds.

ARs are fun easy guns to build, maintain and fairly in-expensive to shoot. Everybody need at least one.

Rob

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:26 am

Never had any trouble with my DPMS, however, that said, I must let you know that it is from the 1990's, not recent mfg. Don't know if they still make them or Brownells has them, but I also have a stainless DPMS lower that I use. Wish I had a few more. Like the looks and bit heaftier feel of them, especially when shooting my 50 Beowulf

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:32 am

DPMS internals are the same as everyone else's (different box same parts).

Their rifles are fine for plinkers, ok for hunting, but not for serious hard use (lots of rounds, defense/combat) without a very thorough look-over to see what they may have screwed up.

For the love of God, please ditch that scope mount. Get a LaRue LT104, you will thank me. Yes, it IS worth the money.

donw · Post by **donw** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 11:45 am

i gotta go along with many post here about the advantages/disadvantages of almost all the rifle/carbines noted; all are highly capable.

i was issued an M1 carbine with infra red nite gear for perimeter defense when i first went to the war in 'Nam...don't sell the M1 carbine short; like any other weapon, there are limits. in the case of the M1 carbine, those limits are basically for use within approx two hundred yards. (we had to qualify on a range on Okinawa at 100 yards KD)

for pure "self defense", or "doomsday" scenarios, any of the named AR's and levers would more than suffice. even the .22 cal 10/22 would suffice if need be if confronted by a non-armored-up aggressor...(although it would not be my first choice)

right now my "AR" is a Ruger PC9 carbine...a very close 'replica' of the M1 carbine. a VERY accurate carbine designed for the close in CQB none of us wishes to engage in.

incidentally, i did at one time own one of the Kel-tec SU16CA's...i got rid of it. it did not "feel right" to me...like said earlier, more like a throw away. accuracy was marginal at best and they have too many issues to deal with for the $$$$ you pay for them. if they made a fixed stock model, that might be different.

that being said...i may end up with the Stag Arms M6...

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 12:03 pm

Chas. wrote:Fella at the range yesterday had an interesting AR. I don't know anything more than what I've read in this thread about AR's, but this fella was shooting a Bushmaster .450. Man, that thing was CAPABLE.

The 50 Beowulf is even better...
(Not really - both plenty of knock-down; kind of like the .444 Marlin vs. .45-70 debate.)

I like the heavier 300-plus grain bullet option for the Beowulf, though.

250 gr .452 at 2200 fps (around 2800 ft-lb) from the .450 Bushmaster
325 gr .500 at 1975 fps (around 2800 ft-lb) from the .500 Beowulf

I was ordering something from Cabela's a few years ago, and saw they had the uppers on sale, so just had to add it to my 'cart'...

I think of it as sort of a ".45-70 Upper"...

Using a scope, I can get 1-1/2" 3 shot groups at 100 yards with it, so it isn't just a 'blaster', it's also pretty accurate. VERY tame recoil; I don't think I could tell the difference between it and .223 if blindfolded (although the sound is far less harsh/ringing than a .223, even with the muzzle-brake, which I got not to reduce the minimal recoil, but just to protect the muzzle, once I realized the gun had accuracy potential; plus it just looks cool...

).

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 1:41 pm

MrMurphy wrote:For the love of God, please ditch that scope mount. Get a LaRue LT104, you will thank me. Yes, it IS worth the money.

What mount/who are you talking to?

Rob

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:36 pm

firefuzz wrote:This is my bad times, throw in the truck gun. Just the bare gun is under 6 pounds.

How do you like your "Boonie Packer"

Mine is an older (?) metal one, and I like it, but had to bend the magazine catch a bit so the spare didn't drop out on its own sometimes.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:39 pm

AJMD429 wrote:How do you like your "Boonie Packer"

Mine is an older (?) metal one, and I like it, but had to bend the magazine catch a bit so the spare didn't drop out on its own sometimes.

Mine's one of the old steel ones too. I like the concept alot, I personally like it much better than banding two mags together, you don't have dedicated mags you just replace them with fresh ones. It places the extra weight between my hands which doesn't bother me, it's easy to do tactical mag changes with, and it doesn't bash me too bad using a single point sling. I wanted to try one for years and finally got lucky and snagged this one on another forum for $25 very slightly used. Couldn't pass it up.

Rob

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:55 am

Firefuzz......you.

ACOG: Get an LT100.

Other scope. Get an LT104. Trust me.

firefuzz · Post by **firefuzz** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 10:17 am

MrMurphy wrote:Firefuzz......you.

ACOG: Get an LT100.

Other scope. Get an LT104. Trust me.

I've got an ACOG TA01 mounted in a GG&G QD mount that works just fine on another rifle, very fine optics for a combat gun but not for a varmit rifle. The mount on this gun, actually only a pair of YHM 1/2" risers for a little extra height, and TPS rings are solid as a rock for target and varmit, two or four legged. The 10x Super Sniper is plenty of scope out to 450yd for prairie dog and 600+yds for two legged varmints. This is pretty much the longest range I'm worried about for this gun and caliber in either situation.

Larue, Daniel Defense and others all make good stuff, at a good price...for them. If I was intending to go into a combat zone I'd probably look at a heavier mounting system, but the way things are now I'll stick with what I've got. I don't work my guns hard enough anymore to worry about "top tier" appliances, and I'm not sure they're worth the extra cash they cost if I had all the money in the world. Back when I rode these guns hard and put them up wet working and training for work I never broke anything made by GG&G or YHM and only paid 1/2 to 2/3's or less of the "top tier" prices.

Rob

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Oct 25, 2010 4:47 pm

I am a Colt Koolaid drinker (to some extent) -- Bud's has the Colt sporters -- (similar to the M-4 style but without the M-4 barrel profile) for about $200 less than the 6920, but i think the 6920 is still the best deal out of the box for a "patrol rifle" or something that might see hard times --- but then again, depends on what you want to use it for. I have a lightweight DPMS plinker that has never had a FTF that was not magazine related -- granted, i only (only) have about 1k through it, it also rarely gets cleaned. It likely wouldn't be my first choice if i was going on drug lab raids in the Honduras, but for my use, the $1200 6920 is a little overkill, but the price is not out of line.

Point being, if it is a can /coyote shooter first and foremost (like my DPMS), you may not need all the Colt has to offer.

RIHMFIRE · Post by **RIHMFIRE** » Tue Oct 26, 2010 12:00 pm

well I have narrowed my choice down to these
in order of preference in M4 carbine config., 16", 223,
Rock River Arms.....trigger seem to be the best
S&W M&P......just because I like S&W
Colt
DPMS
and Stag
Now... you guys have really got me thinking about uppers and lowers
and all the darn accesories....theres just too much too absorb....
and the sights....or optics...its endless....

buckeyeshooter · Post by **buckeyeshooter** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:18 am

RIHMFIRE wrote:what is the best AR for the money.....
I am interested for a couple of reasons......
fun to shoot.....and defense...
I kinda like the smaller, compact ARs....in 223

any advise on rock river arms....
DPMS, Bushmaters....Smith and Wesson M&P

Remingtons new AR...I think is part of bushmaster

I own Colts. they keep a very good resale value. They are also the original ar.

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Oct 27, 2010 4:24 pm

MrMurphy wrote:I used to work for an AR manufacturer.

For your purposes, Bravo Company, or a Colt 6920.

RRA, Bushmaster are "decent" for the money if properly put together (some are not). S&W's out of the box are a good bang for the buck (I have 2 bought when a possible ban was imminent and I was freshly home from 3 yrs in Europe).

Avoid DPMS.

Avoid Olympic.

Piston ARs do work, however, for long term durability, many don't. The only piston I would buy is an LWRC, because they "do" work under hard use. However, Stoner ran piston guns himself and designed the AR as a direct impingement for a reason.

If you have a fully assembled lower, a LaRue Stealth upper offers insane accuracy, however, they're not cheap (you get what you pay for).

M1As are nice rifles however making them accurate and STAY THAT WAY can be interesting.

what problems do u encounter with the olympics?

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:08 am

Extremely varied QC. The ones that work tend to be very accurate but not overly reliable (random jamming). The ones that run reliably are in the average accuracy department. For most of 10-15 yrs Olympics had this rep for a reason. Some of the newer ones have apparently been assembled right, but I would never recommend one for anything but a range plinker, and costwise, there are better options in the same range.

Olys have the issue of all looking fairly nice on the outside, but you can't tell a craptacular one from a spectacular one without shooting it first.

A S&W, properly built RRA, Bravo Company or similar, or even higher end brands does not have those issues. They all short of major screwups, work right out of the box.