"Dick Havens - Fort Reno, Oklahoma Terr." old photo.

[rangerider7]

I found this on EBay. The owner says he is an Indian scout. I doubt it myself. How about you?

[kimwcook]

He may be, but he looks out of place. Obviously a studio picture. He just doesn't look worn enough to be an Indian scout.

[Hobie]

Put together for the photo. 1873 rifle (?) I think with revolver (Schofield, maybe) in 1885 holster but .45-70 cartridges in belt not to mention the clothing.

[rangerider7]

Hobie, the moccasins are the problem for me. I don't think a photographer would have enough sizes to fit one and all. The outfit just doesn't go with a frontier scout. It looks more like an actor but the guns and leather are very real to the period. I think it would be diffucult for the photographer to get that leather.

[CEMENTHEAD]

Definitely a "poser". Even his moccasins are new. He looks too "mousy" as well.

Cool photo none the less. Thanks, Tom

[Booger Bill]

Well, I dont think he`s injun, but give him a break. I have posed a few times myself. All this picking apart reminds me of people hung up in a traffic accident. By the time we get near the accident, that guy better be dead!

[gamekeeper]

Maybe a member of "Buffalo Bill's Wild West".

[Cimarron]

Maybe a member of "Buffalo Bill's Wild West".

He could be fom either Pawnee Bill's or the Miller Brothers 101 Ranch shows too.

[Booger Bill]

Think I knew him in radar school.

[Alan Wood]

The way he's holding the rifle bothers me. Finger on the trigger butstock no where near the shoulder. And the off hand rather far forward if you ask me. That and the backdrop edge is clearly in view. I'm thinking tourist.

[pokey]

my first thought was,



second was he looks scared.

[Malamute]

He looks a bit civilized to me.

The finger on the trigger was pretty common until fairly recently. The "studiouslyavoidtouchingthetriggeratallcostsuntilyouaregoingtofire" is a pretty recent thing. Even Col Cooper had pictures of himself and his shooting buddies in the 50's with fingers on triggers. My old NRA reloading manual from the late 50's has pictures of the top pistol target shooters posing with their guns, most have their fingers on the triggers.

[Booger Bill]

I know what you mean about how the newer generation get freaked out on a lot of older pictures where guys have there fingers on triggers. I showed a old picture on another site a few years ago where I had shot a small buck and a big deal was made because my finger looks like its on the trigger. Here is another picture that even I dont approve of where a couple hunting buddys are pointing there rifles at the camera. It was about 38 years ago, and would you belive they were los angeles cops? I am the pipe smoker on the left with the winchester model 70. I dont know why they did that!

[Hobie]

Hobie, the moccasins are the problem for me. I don't think a photographer would have enough sizes to fit one and all. The outfit just doesn't go with a frontier scout. It looks more like an actor but the guns and leather are very real to the period. I think it would be diffucult for the photographer to get that leather.

Sometimes even the real thing is posed. Seems to me that he might have brought his belt gun rig but was handed the rifle to fill out the pose. Could easily be his mocs but the rest is shop stuff. He could be any one of the many troopers.

[RIHMFIRE]

looks more like a grocery clerk than a scout....
good wind would knock him off the horse

[Ysabel Kid]

Fun picture... of a wannabe!

[awp101]

Being in OK the photographer could be close enough to a reservation or two to buy/trade for a few pairs of moccasins I would imagine.

To me he just doesn't look comfortable holding the rifle...

[Hobie]

We have to remember that exposure times were longer and people didn't get snapped everywhere. Getting your picture made was a big deal, cost money and people were nervous in doing so.

Also, many soldiers of the period were city dwellers and/or immigrants who had no prospects other than the army. Physical requirements permitted some rather reedy looking fellows to enlist.

[RustyJr]

I agree with Alan, he doesnt look like he knows how to handle a rifle.


RustyJr

[Hobie]

I agree with Alan, he doesnt look like he knows how to handle a rifle.


RustyJr

I don't think he looks much different from Theodore Roosevelt...

[MrMurphy]

Audie Murphy was a little guy too. Just because he looks scrawny.....so?

[Birdman]

I'll bet he thought he was was the real deal for the moment anyway. He's long gone and here he is all these years later being the topic of conversation along with the the guns, clothing and camera settings. I say thanks to him for posing and thanks for the pic.

[rangerider7]

Good point Hobie. I wouldn't doubt that the photographer said "hold that rifle were we can see it!

[steventx]

one things for sure regarding the roosevelt photo could they find a modern actor resembling him more than tom berenger ?

[GoatGuy]

I been thinking; don't believe there were too many ultra-large folks back in the 19th century. Folks were generally smaller in stature and a McDonald's wasn't on every corner. However, I'm sure there must have been some back then with a girth that would match those of us folks living today in our greatly softer environment. And I would guess most of those would have been easterners.

I recall one young gent of that time who was small of stature, a bit skinny, made maiden's hearts flutter, was an experienced hand at riding horseback, has been documented a time or two as going shank's mare a far piece, ...and was a fair hand with firearms and had the will to use them. Henry McCarty wasn't what we would think of today as much of a man-size man. Sure couldn't make it in the NFL, but he cut a mighty swath throughout the rough country that he called home ground. I would bet not many who knew him personally called him reedy or soft looking to his face, unless they were very close friends or allies.

I have a copy of a studio picture in my collection of another young, thin looking young gent who looks like many other cowboys of that time who had photographs made at various towns along the cattle drive trails. This one also fails to look like much of the real deal, but he has been called the "Deadliest Gunfighter Who Ever Lived" Anyone care to guess who it might be? Rangerider7 - You're not allowed to guess!!!

[Booger Bill]

John wesley hardin

[.45colt]

Seems like I rember a show on the History channel about Kit Carson. He was also a Man of small stature and people were always suprised when they met Him as they always pictured a big Man.

[GoatGuy]

Good catch Booger Bill. John Wesley Hardin, dubbed the "Dark Angel Of Texas" by biographer Leon Metz. Leon is as fine a researcher of the gunmen of these times as any other out there. He resides in EL Paso and personally gave me a tour of Hardin's travels and final days in that city. The building which housed the Acme Saloon, where Hardin met his end by the murdering backshooter John Selman, is still standing. We also trod the streets where on April 14, 1881 El Paso Marshall Dallas Stoudenmier was involved in the famous "four men killed in five seconds gunfight" and later, on September 18, 1882, died a violent death himself.