Winchester model 64 ramblings

[getitdone1]

As I mentioned in an earlier thread, I recently bought a Winchester model 64 that was made in 1941. Got it through GunsAmerica as I have several guns.

Brought it home and test fired it and the primers were backing out a little. Just enough for me to snag it with my thumb nail. Place fired case, base first, on a table and it wobbles. This had me concerned about headspace and safety. After reading about this problem on the internet it seems this is a common problem with the model 94 action--which the 64 has--and usually nothing to worry about. Took this gun to a gunsmith today, along with fired cases, and he agreed. I notice the fired cases are scratched-up a bit from the chamber so I think I'll call the gunsmith and tell him to polish the chamber along with the trigger job. I'll get more bolt thrust but I think it'll also allow the case to set back against the bolt face and thus push that primer back where it belongs. This old gun is due for a good chamber cleaning anyway. Maybe I have a rough chamber rather than excessive headspace.

This gun comes to my shoulder for fast sight line-up--perhaps the best of any rifle I've ever had. Love it's quality steel butt plate and it's shotgun butt. It's light and really feels good when I handle it. Much prefer it's narrow fore stock over the wider ones.

Another problem I thought I had was hard to lever/action. I thought, in part due to it's age, it was probably just crud inside so I sprayed it with teflon lube and worked the action and it eased-up and now works fine. I was careful not to get this super slick lube in the chamber for fear it might cause too much back thrust on the bolt and bolt lug when fired. I still may have gunsmith take it apart and clean and oil it good--while he's doing the trigger job.

Had the original front sight removed and a red fiber optic sight slipped into the dovetail. Keeping the orginal for the next owner somewhere down the line. Does someone make a rear dovetail sight that does not flip down as the present one does? The one on it now gets pushed down when I'm unaware of it and that would not be good while out hunting. I know this is not the original rear sight I'm after but I prefer it due to my old eyes. Keeps the rear sight at a greater distance from my eye than the original rear sight.

One other small problem could be left as is but I think I'll tell gunsmith to tweak the extractor so it'll slide over the rim more easily when chambering a round. I had this same problem with a Cowboy Commemorative model 94. It just takes too much extra squeeze of the lever to get that extractor over the rim.

Welcome comments and suggestions.

Don McCullough

[AJMD429]

My reply will be not helpful nor particularly intelligent, but what is the 64 chambered in? I always thought that if it was a round that headspaced on the rim, that fixing excess headspace was simpler, but I don't know what the rationale was behind that statement. I'll shut up and watch the thread...

[Base Pin Maker]

I found my 30-30 model 64 in a pawn shop, cost me $290. I've taken an antelope and a mule deer buck with it, and is a sweet shooting gun. It has the headspace issue as you described, but still works well.

[getitdone1]

I found my 30-30 model 64 in a pawn shop, cost me $290. I've taken an antelope and a mule deer buck with it, and is a sweet shooting gun. It has the headspace issue as you described, but still works well.

Wow! What a bargain. How long ago was it when you bought your 64? I paid 650 plus 30 S&H plus 20 to transfer dealer for a total of 700. If it hadn't been reblued long ago (good job though) it would have cost me a lot more. Maybe 1000 or better.

AJMD429,

The model 64 is most usually found chambered for the 30-30 Winchester or sometimes called 30WCF--like stamped on my gun's barrel. It was also chambered for 32 Winchester Special and 25-35 Winchester.

Don McCullough

[JFE]

Don - you might find this thread helpful.

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... 81#p350981

[Remington40x]

I owned a Model 64 that I never could get to shoot, and it eventually went back out the door. Should have hung on to it and made some serious money when the prices went up, up, up.

Were I going to shoot the one you have, I'd look into finding an older Lyman or Redfield peep sight, if the receiver is drilled and tapped for one (two screw holes, with filler screws, top rear left side of receiver), or a tang sight. All of them are easier to use than any kind of standard rear sight.

[Malamute]

Id be reluctant to polish the chamber unless you can see pitting, even then, if it extracts ok, I wouldnt worry about it. The scratches may well be from feeding.

In the discussions regarding headspace in 94's, its never brought up that the ammo can be part of the issue as well. We always seem to assume that ammo is perfect as regards headspace, and that isnt the case. A gunsmith has shown me various cartridges in a cartridge headsapce gauge and described how most guns are chambered. He said most guns have loose chambers, and that most factory ammo has sloppy headspace and body dimensions as well, even under the supposed specs. I believe he said that saami gave manufacturers about .006" or .008" undersize leeway. What all that means in real life is, you can have a gun with proper, even minimum headspace, and the cartridges you drop in it can be loose as regards headspace. It's hard on brass life, and not generally conducive to the best accuracy. Some guns just shoot well even if everything isnt just right, but when you can remove those variables it gives you a better chance of getting it right. He said one of the reasons some brass was more expensive, and in demand for accuracy was it was manufactured to actual proper cartridge dimensions, which is harder to do consistaly than make them sloppy loose.

Headspace isnt a zero clearance thing, it's a range of spec, in both chamber and cartridge to give an allowable range of size to function. Some "breathing room" is part of that spec or you couldnt close the bolt on a cartridge that was a thousandth or two oversize or if you had the slightest bit of crud under the rim.

I quit worrying about headspace in 94's unless the primers are way out. If the primers back out a touch, so what, it doesnt hurt a thing, and tells you that your loads arent real hot either. Primers backed out slightly are generally considered a low pressure symptom. If you're setting the case had back against the bolt face, it's likely going to work the brass more than just letting the case stay forward. another thing to consider about 94's, they have a fairly stout spring holding the case forward upon firing (the ejector spring), and I believe it tends to accentuate the way the primers look.

[getitdone1]

Malamute,

Good to see you're still in the thick of things.

I talked to gunsmith today and he's going to clean the gun in a cleaning apparatus he said sold for 15,000. That oughta get it clean. I told him on the polishing of the chamber not to polish too much and leave similar to the roughness it had when left the factory. He understood what I meant. He's been in business for 30 years. Heck of a nice guy. By roughness I mean fine machining marks which is typical and helps the case stick to wall of chamber when fired--or, at least retards back thrust. This 1941 gun has likely had little attention given to it's chamber in the past 69 years. The light scratch marks on the case, when extracted, are all around case and running length wise with the case. I had one factory load that hung-up slightly when I worked the lever to extract case. Once it broke loose it was totally free.

I want the gun as "smooth running" as possible. I'm sure it'll come out all right. I'm also sure I could have left things as they are and that would also have worked--but not as slick. Good chance backed-out primer "problem" will be solved.

Having trigger pull set at 3.0 lbs. I've found that pretty good in the past. How do you like your trigger pull? Gunsmith told me about a guy who had him make his trigger pull at 8 ounces. He said he shot a hole in the ceiling when running to the door to shoot something outside. By the way, Jack O'Connor shot his foot one time. Don't think anyone ever read about that--while he was alive!

Have you perfected your model 71 to your liking?

Don

[Malamute]

Hello Don, I havent had time to fool with the 71 much. I may later this winter.

If your shells stick some and the scratches are from the chamber, then a polish seems in order. I think you're on the right track as far as understanding some "texture" to the chamber isnt all bad.