Day Is Done, Down The Sun: Taps, For the .450 Marlin

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 1:01 pm

It's official. The 1895M has been dropped from the MarRem catalog.

It figured, after Hornady stopped production of 450 Marlin brass, that the handwriting was on the wall.

FWIW, after trying it, I always preferred the .45-70, anyway; and (evidently) so did plenty of other folks.

.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:05 pm

The 450 marlin chambered in a 20" barreled, straight gripped model 94 would have been the holy grail! Winchester never did. Modern 45-70 performance out of a 1894 without having to handload. I'll mourn the passing of this one.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:18 pm

I don't think I'll bury mine just yet. I have enough brass and ammo to last a couple lifetimes.

jb

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:24 pm

I liked the idea of having a big bore gun that actually sanctioned 'modern loads' - I'll bet the .450's & .45-70's of the same make and model are not much different in 'breaking strength', but of course anything other than SAAMI-spec ammunition is considered a no-no for just about every gun I've read the instruction manual for. (I wonder what the 'official' 'disclaimer' language in the Ruger No. 1 manual says regarding .45-70 ammo?)

Of course there's always the .444 Marlin - pretty much no 'debate' as to what level of power is 'appropriate' for the Marlins on that one, and there's not much I'd be scared to shoot with a .444 Marlin that I'd not be just as scared to shoot with a .45-70 that didn't say 'Gatling' on it.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 3:28 pm

AJ,

Never has one and never wanted one - well, until now that they don't make them anymore. Now it is one of those very interesting obsolete cartridges that we ruminate about.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:28 pm

Old Savage wrote:Now it is one of those very interesting obsolete cartridges that we ruminate about.

But, but, but . . . it doesn't have a hyphen . . !

Maybe we should start calling it the .45-00 Marlin.

brno602 · Post by **brno602** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 4:57 pm

I think the same thing will happen to all the new Marlin cals?
Sad but history always repeats ie 307win, 356win = 308 /.338 Marlin.
The .444 and 45/70 have a very loyal group of shooters that like them so I think it was a bad idea from the start for the .450.

All we need is Savage to bring back the 99 in .308 & a small run of 300s and .358s

and of course 250/3000 and maybe a .243
P.S
I almost forgot the 7mm08 and 260 would be great.
Ah a 6.5 99 I can dream right?

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:11 pm

So that is probably what I saw on the wall at a local Gun Shop Fri. She said it was a 450 but that didn't spark any interest with Me. After seeing this post, is there any other makers of a 450 ? O.S. if U R interested I can get U a price. A.J. -sure it has a Hyphen ( that is what U do when U can' get ammo after buying the Gun. )

JB · Post by JB » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:13 pm

I didn't see the .450 Marlin hanging around long either. I have one just because I've got every other caliber Marlin has offered in my lifetime, but it just gathers dust in the safe.

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:40 pm

The rifle in 450 Marlin that has my interest is a Winchester Timber Carbine, with the wood stock, factory XS sights and scout rail and ported barrel. Yet, I have NEVER seen one in person or for sale anywhere. That would be a super-handy rifle in a configuration I'd enjoy. WIth that in mind, I still always thought Winchester should have made the identical rifle in 45-70. I'm thinking I won't miss the 450 Marlin - but , maybe if I could have had one of those Timber Carbines I would have learned to love it.

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 5:59 pm

86er close but no cigar

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =209736441

foxtrapper · Post by **foxtrapper** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:02 pm

Hell pass out the cigars http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =2&t=32725

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:22 pm

says "for trade" and I don't have either of the trade items.....

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 6:56 pm

The winchester 94 can't chamber the 45-70 without extensive modifaction. I don't think anybody has sucessfully done it. That's what makes the passing of the 450 marlin so sad. While winchester never made a 450 in a straight gripped 20" barrelled 94, I'd of bought a few.

Jayhawker · Post by **Jayhawker** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 10:51 pm

While we lament the demise of the 450 Marlin, how long should we give the 35 Rem and 444 Marlin? I'm not sure either of those has a lot of support with the new company hierarchy as they seem to be chambered in fewer and fewer models.

Sarge · Post by **Sarge** » Sun Jan 09, 2011 11:44 pm

...and another proprietary cartridge bites the dust. The mortality rate seems rather high on these.

LeverBob · Post by **LeverBob** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:10 am

What a shame....a first class heavy hitter for the big stuff. My opinion is only from afar...

Not to worry...Frank Barnes thought of the solution way back in the fifties. If'n y'all want one, just rechamber a 45-70 or rebarrel a .444 for his .458x2" American cartridge. You may be able to find an NOS or a good used one, but if not, then make one up for yersef'! Then you would be able to use all that spent belted stuff you've been hoarding (being cheap as we all are) to cut down, ream & re-form.

Personally, I use a .444 Outfitter for my heavy stuff & never owned a .450. Still...it does strike my fancy now & again.

Best to y'all...things change....

LB

adirondakjack · Post by **adirondakjack** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:21 am

I coulda told ya they weren't selling years ago. Our SASS club did some stuff for Big Green and they would get a Marlin (back before the buyout, when Remington bought em cheap from Marlin) for a donation for our state shoot. Always a .450 because, to steal a line from the car biz, they were dead on the showroom floor, so they would almost give em away.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:00 am

.450 chambered rifles can still chamber .45-70 correct?

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:07 am

Jayhawker wrote:While we lament the demise of the 450 Marlin, how long should we give the 35 Rem and 444 Marlin? I'm not sure either of those has a lot of support with the new company hierarchy as they seem to be chambered in fewer and fewer models.

You likely dont have to worry at all about the .444 --- there are plenty out there going back decades now. .429 vs. .458 means the supported end of the chamber has more meat --- meaning fewer ka-booms hopefully. .44 Mag fans like .429 bullets too

I actually thought the .35 Rem was already obsolete though -- along with the Winchester "big bores" starting with the 307.

I want to like the .450, really i do, but i prefer to shoot my 45/70 with light to medium loads and loads that approach .450 performance are wasted on Oklahoma deer (well, wasted is not the right term -- overkill maybe)

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:20 am

MrMurphy wrote:.450 chambered rifles can still chamber .45-70 correct?

No, the .450 is a belted case. Looks a little like a .458 Winchester Mag. Marlin/ Hornady did this to keep
people from stuffing a hot loaded round into an ole Trapdoor or something similar.

jb

Steelbanger · Post by **Steelbanger** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:56 am

2ndovc wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:.450 chambered rifles can still chamber .45-70 correct?
No, the .450 is a belted case. Looks a little like a .458 Winchester Mag. Marlin/ Hornady did this to keep
people from stuffing a hot loaded round into an ole Trapdoor or something similar.

jb

Also, the 450 belt is located a bit forward of the belt location on conventional belted cartridges. This means that you can't form your own 450's from 458 Win brass. Best stock up on 450 Marlin cases now while they're available.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:14 am

I knew the .450 was belted, so you couldn't stick it in a .45-70 and blow it up. But i was always under the impression standard .45-70 would still work in a .450, i.e .357/.38 Special.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:26 am

As Col. Cooper said: "The 450 was an answer to a question that was never asked". By the time the 450 came out, Garrett and Buffalo Bore had hot hunting ammo. The 300 grain offerings from Federal and Winchester were very excellent, as well. One could hunt anything with the available options at the time.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 11:56 am

The 450 Marlin works in a model 94 winchester, while the 45-70 can't. Guess the old colonel wasn't a big fan.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 12:05 pm

tman wrote:The 450 Marlin works in a model 94 winchester, while the 45-70 can't. Guess the old colonel wasn't a big fan.

That speaks against the 94, not the round...

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:48 pm

A model 94 with a 20" barrel and 7 shot capacity would 've made a hell of a good lever "scout rifle" for dangerous game. Think the good colonel missed the boat on this one.

66GTO · Post by **66GTO** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:59 pm

foxtrapper wrote:86er close but no cigar http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =209736441

The only way they could make that cross bolt safety any uglier would be to paint it Day-Glo Orange! At least on a Marlin it doesn't have a 1/2 lb. of the receiver scalloped out and on the Marlin the cross bolt safety can be removed and made unobtrusive.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 2:11 pm

tman wrote:A model 94 with a 20" barrel and 7 shot capacity would 've made a hell of a good lever "scout rifle" for dangerous game. Think the good colonel missed the boat on this one.

He had already thrown in with the Wild West version, and the 1895 Marlins that were coming out. There was no factory .450 that could hold a candle to some of the Garrett's or BBore ammo out there. Even handloading, the 45-70 had a scant couple grain advantage, but it prolly could not have exceeded standard deviation.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 3:16 pm

Hey,
I have a 99 in .358!

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 4:11 pm

86er wrote:The rifle in 450 Marlin that has my interest is a Winchester Timber Carbine, with the wood stock, factory XS sights and scout rail and ported barrel. Yet, I have NEVER seen one in person or for sale anywhere. That would be a super-handy rifle in a configuration I'd enjoy. WIth that in mind, I still always thought Winchester should have made the identical rifle in 45-70. I'm thinking I won't miss the 450 Marlin - but , maybe if I could have had one of those Timber Carbines I would have learned to love it.

This is the second one I've seen today ... http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/ ... 8468.aspx#

I guess people have taken to dumping them lately. Maybe not exactly what you're looking for but close.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 5:54 pm

BlaineG wrote:
tman wrote:A model 94 with a 20" barrel and 7 shot capacity would 've made a hell of a good lever "scout rifle" for dangerous game. Think the good colonel missed the boat on this one.
He had already thrown in with the Wild West version, and the 1895 Marlins that were coming out. There was no factory .450 that could hold a candle to some of the Garrett's or BBore ammo out there. Even handloading, the 45-70 had a scant couple grain advantage, but it prolly could not have exceeded standard deviation.

The 45-70 is the hands down winner in power. It'll always beat the 450 marlin. The 1895 marlin is heavier, doesn't point as well, and has less capacity than the 20" full magazine 450 marlin chambered 1894 winchester that was never built. I guess you could rechamber one in .444 marlin for one. But since the 450 marlin has passed

why bother.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 6:42 pm

Rimfire McNutjob wrote:
86er wrote:The rifle in 450 Marlin that has my interest is a Winchester Timber Carbine, with the wood stock, factory XS sights and scout rail and ported barrel. Yet, I have NEVER seen one in person or for sale anywhere. That would be a super-handy rifle in a configuration I'd enjoy. WIth that in mind, I still always thought Winchester should have made the identical rifle in 45-70. I'm thinking I won't miss the 450 Marlin - but , maybe if I could have had one of those Timber Carbines I would have learned to love it.
This is the second one I've seen today ... http://www.gunsamerica.com/classifieds/ ... 8468.aspx#

I guess people have taken to dumping them lately. Maybe not exactly what you're looking for but close.

Well, by the time I looked again it had been sold. Wasn't up there for long at $799.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:09 pm

All this academic "BS" is meaningless.
The .450m will have a dedicated following just like the .375 Win. .33 WCF, 35 WCF., 38-72, Etc,Etc.

Just one more Odd Ball to Collect and show the uninformed what is "cool" and what is not!!

Take a three hundred pound boar with ammo you made yourself or an elk at 300 yds with a
round that hasn't been made in two or three decades and you'll show the youngsters how it's done!!

jb

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 7:32 pm

IMO, the Gun and Bullet companies need to watch bringing in new calibers like this and then just dropping them. If they dont plan to stand by their products and see them through, they are better off to not even introducing it; it cant be good for buisness. Of course, I may be the only one here too cheap to spring for high dollar ammo. Just think how many calibers have been introduced in the last 10 years or so and now you cant hardly find a box and brass is rare. Just off the top of my head I can think of the 6.8, and all of the various SHORT MAGNUM cartridges that WIN. and REM. came out with.

Some may call me "Vanilla" but give me the old standard .243, .270, .308, .30-06, and .45-70 any day. Ammo is plentiful, you can find it everywhere, it doesnt cost you an arm and leg, and best of all IT DROPS GAME EVERYTIME YOU DO YOUR PART.

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Mon Jan 10, 2011 9:37 pm

Sorry, but I never understood the point of that cartridge. AFAIAC it was just another attempt by Marlin to foist on the shooting public a unneeded and redundant proprietary cartridge. I can load my 1886 Winchesters, even the originals, to out perform the .450 M with ease.

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:21 am

and just because it's been dropped from this year's catalog doesn't mean it won't be back. Remember the 1894FG, the one in .41 Magnum? That was dropped and came back, then dropped again.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:46 am

pwl44m wrote:After seeing this post, is there any other makers of a 450 ?

Doesn't (or didn't) Browning chamber the BLR is 450? As far as for shooting 45-70 in one, I think that the 450 case (and chamber) is a little shorter than the 45-70 case, might not be able to fully close the bolt anyway.

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 6:57 pm

horsesoldier03 wrote:IMO, the Gun and Bullet companies need to watch bringing in new calibers like this and then just dropping them. If they dont plan to stand by their products and see them through, they are better off to not even introducing it; it cant be good for buisness. Of course, I may be the only one here too cheap to spring for high dollar ammo. Just think how many calibers have been introduced in the last 10 years or so and now you cant hardly find a box and brass is rare. Just off the top of my head I can think of the 6.8, and all of the various SHORT MAGNUM cartridges that WIN. and REM. came out with.

Some may call me "Vanilla" but give me the old standard .243, .270, .308, .30-06, and .45-70 any day. Ammo is plentiful, you can find it everywhere, it doesnt cost you an arm and leg, and best of all IT DROPS GAME EVERYTIME YOU DO YOUR PART.

+1 I'm no longer gonna buy a new rifle for a new cartridge only to have it dropped from production. I refuse to pay $50 a box for ammo, that even at that price, can't find in a boxmart. The 30-30 and 30-06 in a lever will handle all my hunting needs. If the manufactorer refuses to support it, why should I

tman · Post by **tman** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 7:05 pm

Mike D. wrote:Sorry, but I never understood the point of that cartridge. AFAIAC it was just another attempt by Marlin to foist on the shooting public a unneeded and redundant proprietary cartridge. I can load my 1886 Winchesters, even the originals, to out perform the .450 M with ease.

The 450 marlin would fit in the model 94 platform, which gives a much lighter and handier platform than the model 86. The 450 gives adequite power for brown bear, with factory ammo, without having to handload. While i thought this is the best thing since sliced bread, nobody else see's it this way or doesn't care.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Tue Jan 11, 2011 8:06 pm

tman wrote:
Mike D. wrote:Sorry, but I never understood the point of that cartridge. AFAIAC it was just another attempt by Marlin to foist on the shooting public a unneeded and redundant proprietary cartridge. I can load my 1886 Winchesters, even the originals, to out perform the .450 M with ease.
The 450 marlin would fit in the model 94 platform, which gives a much lighter and handier platform than the model 86. The 450 gives adequite power for brown bear, with factory ammo, without having to handload. While i thought this is the best thing since sliced bread, nobody else see's it this way or doesn't care.

I care.
I love my .450 Marlin. It was a Christmas gift from my family and I wil never give it up. Deadly accurate and will knock down just about anything in it's path.
"Dead and buried" I doubt it. How long was the .405 Winchester dead and gone and then magically resurected? And it was only procuced for a couple years. Just like the .450m.

Cartridges come and go, that's just the nature of the business. Just a couple years ago the Super Short Magnums were all the rage. Anyone bought one of those lately?
The manufacturers have to keep us interested in "something new" to stay profitable, and stay in business!
You never know what the next best thing will be. Winchester was on to something with the Pack Rifles and Scout Take down's but it was just too late.

When will the next .45-70 or .38 spl. be invented ? You never know. I thought the .40 S&W was going to be a flash in the pan but that dopey round is still with us.
Who knows?

jb

tman · Post by **tman** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:31 pm

While we agree on the 450 Marlin, The 40S&w in a Glock 27 with a 13 shot mag is a neat package. In both cases, it's about a lot of power in light packages.

Old Time Hunter · Post by **Old Time Hunter** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:02 pm

I've got two, one in a Marlin 1895M and one in a Winchester Timber Carbine. The Timber Carbine still has the tags on it and is in the original box. The Marlin has been fired exactly five times since I bought it new. The Timber Carbine is one of the last off the line, actually it was shipped during the week after Winchester closed. Those five shots fired out of the Marlin, were surprisingly accurate, but also told me that unless I am hunting elephants it will be used sparingly. This announcement has me thinking that I should load up some reduced loads (say 350 gr loaded to about 1900 fps) and try 'em again. Yep, it is pretty close to the .45-70, but mine will be a .450 Marlin!

As soon as I get back from New Hampshire (stuck in Nashua for business), I am going to see if I can cycle a standard .45-70 in the chamber. It should work as the cartridge is identical except for the band.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:21 pm

The .450 is shorter than the .45-70 .
You can use .45-70 data as many do.

As for me, I never did see any great deal with that round. I love the .45-70.

captain prozak · Post by **captain prozak** » Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:22 pm

If anyone is still looking for a Timberline in .450 Marlin, I just posted one in the classifieds.....

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =2&t=32725

anachronism · Post by **anachronism** » Sat Jan 15, 2011 10:49 pm

Steelbanger wrote:
2ndovc wrote:
MrMurphy wrote:.450 chambered rifles can still chamber .45-70 correct?
No, the .450 is a belted case. Looks a little like a .458 Winchester Mag. Marlin/ Hornady did this to keep
people from stuffing a hot loaded round into an ole Trapdoor or something similar.

jb
Also, the 450 belt is located a bit forward of the belt location on conventional belted cartridges. This means that you can't form your own 450's from 458 Win brass. Best stock up on 450 Marlin cases now while they're available.

What about setting the barrel back a couple of turns & rechambering for 458X2?

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Tue Jan 18, 2011 11:56 pm

Why didn't they make up some modern .45-70 ammo with a different headstamp, like .458-70? That would have kept them off the hook legally. It worked for the .38 Auto and the .38 Super. That way in a pinch owners could always pick up some .45-70 loads at the local gas station out in the sticks for emergencies.

Another alternative would have been to put a small shoulder on the new case, just enough so it would not fit in a .45-70 chamber.

Post by **Old Savage** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 12:19 am

The extended belt would keep me from getting a 450. Can't easily make the brass when it is gone.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 2:03 am

horsesoldier03 wrote:IMO, the Gun and Bullet companies need to watch bringing in new calibers like this and then just dropping them. If they dont plan to stand by their products and see them through, they are better off to not even introducing it; it cant be good for buisness. Of course, I may be the only one here too cheap to spring for high dollar ammo. Just think how many calibers have been introduced in the last 10 years or so and now you cant hardly find a box and brass is rare. Just off the top of my head I can think of the 6.8, and all of the various SHORT MAGNUM cartridges that WIN. and REM. came out with.

Some may call me "Vanilla" but give me the old standard .243, .270, .308, .30-06, and .45-70 any day. Ammo is plentiful, you can find it everywhere, it doesnt cost you an arm and leg, and best of all IT DROPS GAME EVERYTIME YOU DO YOUR PART.

No way to argue the point, but as with any hobby some folks enjoy the path less traveled. So many great chamberings and so few rifles in my closet!!

Cheers,
Oly

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Wed Jan 19, 2011 4:26 am

and don't forget the BFR in 450 Marlin. I saw a guy shooting one at the range; that's one Big Revolver.

By the way, there's some discrepancy to what "BFR" stands for. I heard a couple of guys discussing the gun in question and no one called it a "Big Frame Revolver".