OT - Snubbies & Felt Recoil

[Old Ironsights]

I was working out the SP101 (2.5") on some plates Saturday and (again) ran across something that I've never quite understood...

It's much less punishing and I have much quicker recovery shooting 180gr .357 Factory Loads than I do 158gr factory loads.

Enough so that I carry Federal Premium 180gr SJHPs rather than lighter, faster fare.

What's more, in a "one of each" 5 shot string, the felt difference between a 158gr SP and a Buffalo Bore 180gr +P+ is almost nill, while the 180gr Federal shoots about like a .38 LSWCHP (With the Federal/Barnes 140 SCHP right in the middle "feel" wise.)

Go figure...

[J Miller]

Do you think it might be because the heavier loads with heavier bullets use slower burning powders that give the bullets a push rather than a slap?

I've noticed the same thing with 4" barreled .357s too.

Joe

[Hobie]

Go to the other end and try 125 gr. top end loads. I can't stand them in anything less than my Security Six with full size grips.

[tman]

The hot loaded 125 jhp did more damange to K frame .357's than the 158& 180's. About the time that the 125's became the defensive vouge, S&W came out with the larger frame 586 & 686 L? frames to handle the flame cutting erosion on the forcing cones of medium frame .357 Magnums when using excessive amounts of the 125 grain jhp's. If my feeble memory still serves me correctly.

[Old Ironsights]

Do you think it might be because the heavier loads with heavier bullets use slower burning powders that give the bullets a push rather than a slap?

I've noticed the same thing with 4" barreled .357s too.

Joe

That's the only thing I can think of too...

As for the 125s, I haven't used them since I got rid of my GP100 in the late '80s...

[adirondakjack]

yep, fast stab VS a punch. A punch may be more energy, but don't volunteer to stand in front of a knife.

[jdad]

This is the reason I prefer the N frame 27/28, for range work. I carry a J frame 642, with standard 38sp Gold Dot's though.

[Old Ironsights]

yep, fast stab VS a punch. A punch may be more energy, but don't volunteer to stand in front of a knife.

Problem with that analogy is that I'll get 2 or 3 quick stabs during wet work, but with the "fast & light" bullets I can't recover nearly as fast as with the heavy punchers.

I'll put 3 180s on target for every 1-1/2 on target fast lightweight.

[Bogie35]

Recoil follows a basic rule of physics: "For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction." Thus, it stands to reason that the load that produces the most kinetic energy going forward will produce the most going backward. Typical 125 grain factory loads produce more muzzle energy than 180 grain loads.

BTW, as an aside, this is an excellent illustration of why "energy" is not a good indicator of killing power.

Bogie

[kimwcook]

All I can say is I have to qualify with my second carry pieces for work. I have a S&W 649 (Bodyguard) in 357 that meets that criteria. I bought some Remington loads and they were full house, don't remember the bullet weight, but they were just brutal. Felt like my hand was literally getting hit with a ballpeen hammer. Now, we're supposed to bring our own ammo for our seconds, but I couldn't qual with my left hand so I used some of the departments 357 and easily qualified the first time. It wasn't near as hot a load.

[COSteve]

That's a common item with pistol ammo. Logic says that heavier weight bullets should produce a stronger recoil, however, the lower powder charge associated with the heavier bullets produces less of a snap and more of a push resulting in a milder feeling recoil.

Lighter weight defensive ammo is usually loaded with more powder / faster burning powder to give higher velocities and tend to give sharper recoil impulses. Try a 40 cal; 155grn, 165gr, and 180grn and a 45acp 185grn, 200grn, and a 230grn. In both cases (high and low pressure rounds) the heavier bullet weight produces a much more pleasant felt recoil.

That, and the fact that heavier bullets tend to penetrate better is the reason why my G23 CCW rig is fed 180grn 40s&w Speer GD ammo exclusively for my carry ammo and why I use 180grn handloads for my practice ammo too.

[buckeyeshooter]

That's a common item with pistol ammo. Logic says that heavier weight bullets should produce a stronger recoil, however, the lower powder charge associated with the heavier bullets produces less of a snap and more of a push resulting in a milder feeling recoil.

Lighter weight defensive ammo is usually loaded with more powder / faster burning powder to give higher velocities and tend to give sharper recoil impulses. Try a 40 cal; 155grn, 165gr, and 180grn and a 45acp 185grn, 200grn, and a 230grn. In both cases (high and low pressure rounds) the heavier bullet weight produces a much more pleasant felt recoil.

That, and the fact that heavier bullets tend to penetrate better is the reason why my G23 CCW rig is fed 180grn 40s&w Speer GD ammo exclusively for my carry ammo and why I use 180grn handloads for my practice ammo too.

Wanna try some 700 grain bullets in my 500 S & W????

[COSteve]

I was comparing different bullet weights of like calibers.

[ResJudicata]

That's a common item with pistol ammo. Logic says that heavier weight bullets should produce a stronger recoil, however, the lower powder charge associated with the heavier bullets produces less of a snap and more of a push resulting in a milder feeling recoil.

Lighter weight defensive ammo is usually loaded with more powder / faster burning powder to give higher velocities and tend to give sharper recoil impulses. Try a 40 cal; 155grn, 165gr, and 180grn and a 45acp 185grn, 200grn, and a 230grn. In both cases (high and low pressure rounds) the heavier bullet weight produces a much more pleasant felt recoil.

That, and the fact that heavier bullets tend to penetrate better is the reason why my G23 CCW rig is fed 180grn 40s&w Speer GD ammo exclusively for my carry ammo and why I use 180grn handloads for my practice ammo too.

+1. This is why in USPSA shooting we mostly use the heavier range of bullets for our loads. At the same power factor (bullet weight X velocity) the heavier bullets with faster burning powder give the opportunity for faster followup shots and more consistent sight tracking.

With guns that have compensators they do the opposite. Lighter bullets and slower powders give them more gas volume to operate the compensator and keeps the gun flatter during recoil.

Chris

[jd45]

Steve, I'm curious about over-penetration to un-intented targets in CQB. What think you? jd45

[1894cfan]

In "J" frame sized revolvers that are marketed mostly for self defense, I'd suggest nothing more that 125gr .357, with 110 as optimal(sp?). Anything more is overkill recoil wise!!! From S-6 size and up, the skys the limit!! The J frames were made for 38/38+P loads. That being said, I've got a S&W 60-9 chambered for .357, and the most I would shoot in it is 110JHP! YMMV HTH

[Old Ironsights]

In "J" frame sized revolvers that are marketed mostly for self defense, I'd suggest nothing more that 125gr .357, with 110 as optimal(sp?). Anything more is overkill recoil wise!!! From S-6 size and up, the skys the limit!! The J frames were made for 38/38+P loads. That being said, I've got a S&W 60-9 chambered for .357, and the most I would shoot in it is 110JHP! YMMV HTH

That is exactly opposite of what I have encountered.

[COSteve]

Steve, I'm curious about over-penetration to un-intented targets in CQB. What think you? jd45

I'm not sure that I consider it a concern. I've talked to various LEO depts while they practiced at our range about their department's ammo selection and more often than not the officers using 40s&w are issued 180grn over 165grn. Also, to a department, the officers with 45acps are issued 230grn ammo instead of 200grn. I guess they've satisfied themselves of that concern.

[1894cfan]

That is exactly opposite of what I have encountered.[/quote]

IF I really need to hurt somebody, which I hope never happens, all I need to do is drag out the 1894c with 145 silvertips OR a 12guage with 00 buck or slug!! YMMV

[buckeyeshooter]

I was comparing different bullet weights of like calibers.

I was mostly joshing you! But the 700 grainers do recoil tons more than say a barnes 275 at a lot faster spped in a 500 Snubbie.