Calling .38-55 ammo experts!

[vancelw]

I found this case on a Montana prairie several years ago.

.38-55 headstamp.jpg

.38-55 cannelure.jpg

My first impression was that it was old. Then I remembered that the .38-55 is still alive and well. Have one myself.

Does anyone recognize this case? I am curious as to who manufactured it and about what the date of mfg. might be.
The only markings on it are .38-55 and the cannelure on the case.
It was on the surface of the ground-not buried up in the dirt like you would think an old case would be. Lots of pronghorn and summertime cattle traffic in this area.
I've found .40-82 and .250-3000 Savage cases before. They've always been in a homestead area where the cattle like to get up against the buildings to avoid the wind and have always been buried in the dirt.

I'm just curious. I know some of you grey-beards will recognize this right off Probably more than a few of you have some unfired in a box on the shelf.

[J Miller]

Vance,

I have an ancient W.R.A. Co. 405 Winchester case that came out of the Superstition Mtns in AZ. It looks exactly like your 38-55 does. Case mouth split and corroded. Look down inside the case and see if it's a balloon head. If so that will put it close to the turn of the last century.
I don't see a brand head stamp on it, so that would require a SWAG. I've read that the early Winchester made ammo did not have a brand head stamped on it. But I'm not sure of that.

An interesting find at any rate.

Joe

[vancelw]

Joe, I don't want to cut the brass in half to be sure, but looking inside I don't think it is a balloon head case. The inside base appears to be flat and the primer pocket is not raised. Using a dental pick, I cannot feel an indent where the base meets the wall. It feels like a "normal" curve there.

When did chrome colored primers come into use? I noticed my case has one rather than a brass colored one.

I found this photo online. The second case from the left looks similar, but there is no more information.

case heads.jpg

[RKrodle]

Vance I'll give it a shot. It looks to me to be a brass 38-55 case. OK, what do I win? Did you get any yote's this morning?

[vancelw]

Vance I'll give it a shot. It looks to me to be a brass 38-55 case. OK, what do I win? Did you get any yote's this morning?

You might be right. Check the mailbox for your prize. Wait...that might be a crime. I'll have to personally deliver it.

Slept in this morning and gave the coyotes a break. I think they know my voice by now anyway. When it warms up enough that I can stand to ventilate the shop, I'm going to cast some bullets for my .38-55 and .348 so we can do some plinking.

Think anyone will be at the gunshow tomorrow or did they all wimp out?

[J Miller]

Vance,

The plated primers came into being at the same time as smokeless powder.
As a guess I'd say post 1900 on the case date, but still no idea on who made it.

Joe

[Sixgun]

It's known as "A Cartridge On The Trail". These can be found in areas where animals are known to frequent. Most likely a man with a gun was out to eat that animal. It was originally made to contain a lead projectile and a rapidly progressive burning ingredient called "gunpowder" The outside of this "cartridge" was originally made nice and shiney.

There's also a similar type called "Cartridge On The Street Corner". These can be found after a drug transaction has taken place. The recipient of the lead projectile in these cases usually winds up in a hospital with the "working class" picking up the bill. These cartridge cases are usually smaller in length and diameter (.22, .32 etc) but can be larger. ("9" or "foty") (40)

OK, 'ya like that? I'm just trying to keep up with "Mouthpiece" For real, in the old days some cases only had the caliber on them, and some, nothing at all. I have many original Sharps, Maynards, Peabodys and others that have nothing on 'em. By the "38-55" on your case, it looks like Winchester's print design and they made it for some off the wall company for use with smokeless as the cannelure was put on the case to keep the bullet from slipping down inside. Either way, its cool. ---------------Sixgun

[RKrodle]

Vance I'll give it a shot. It looks to me to be a brass 38-55 case. OK, what do I win? Did you get any yote's this morning?

You might be right. Check the mailbox for your prize. Wait...that might be a crime. I'll have to personally deliver it.

Slept in this morning and gave the coyotes a break. I think they know my voice by now anyway. When it warms up enough that I can stand to ventilate the shop, I'm going to cast some bullets for my .38-55 and .348 so we can do some plinking.

Think anyone will be at the gunshow tomorrow or did they all wimp out?

My nephew was there at the gun show today. I'll ask him and get back to you.

[vancelw]

It's known as "A Cartridge On The Trail". These can be found in areas where animals are known to frequent. Most likely a man with a gun was out to eat that animal. It was originally made to contain a lead projectile and a rapidly progressive burning ingredient called "gunpowder" The outside of this "cartridge" was originally made nice and shiney.

There's also a similar type called "Cartridge On The Street Corner". These can be found after a drug transaction has taken place. The recipient of the lead projectile in these cases usually winds up in a hospital with the "working class" picking up the bill. These cartridge cases are usually smaller in length and diameter (.22, .32 etc) but can be larger. ("9" or "foty") (40)

OK, 'ya like that? I'm just trying to keep up with "Mouthpiece" For real, in the old days some cases only had the caliber on them, and some, nothing at all. I have many original Sharps, Maynards, Peabodys and others that have nothing on 'em. By the "38-55" on your case, it looks like Winchester's print design and they made it for some off the wall company for use with smokeless as the cannelure was put on the case to keep the bullet from slipping down inside. Either way, its cool. ---------------Sixgun

Okay Mouthpiece, Jr.
As far as 'Cartridge on a Trail', ever since I found this I've been wanting to use a .38-55 on a pronghorn in that same area. This fall may be the time (if MT FWP doesn't reduce the tags too much after this winter)
Oh, and I found a .25-35 Rem-UMC case last November. That's going to be expensive if I want to shoot a deer with one. Everyt ime I see one of those it is outside of my means and ability to make it mine. Not to mention outside my comfort zone.

Did BP cartridges not have cannelures on them? Was there not enough recoil with BP or were cannelures below the bullet just the new idea of the day?

[J Miller]

Vance,

I missed the cannelure the first time I looked at the pics. Sixgun is right about it being a smokeless round.

In a black powder cartridge the bullet literally sits on the powder charge. So in lever guns with tube magazines it can't be shoved back in the case. But the smokeless charge doesn't take up much room so they put a cannelure to hold the bullet in place.

Cannelures were also used as a quick reference to ID smokeless from black pdr ammo. ANd in many cases different cannelures were used to differentiate between loads.

Joe

[vancelw]

In a black powder cartridge the bullet literally sits on the powder charge.. .

Joe

Duh! You would think I would know that after all the reading I've done in the past week or so about paper-patched bullets and BP. I've never messed with BP so I forget that people are always trying to get MORE in the case and the bullet slipping back is not so much of an issue.

I'm sure there are more than a few .38-55s in the occupied ranch houses around where I found this. Probably even boxes of old ammo. So even if it was a 100 year-old cartridge, doesn't mean it wasn't shot 5 or 10 years before I found it.

Most likely, it is from the late 20s to 40s. That area is uninhabited now, but back then there were several homesteads occupied. In fact, there are ruts from an old wagon road within a few hundred yards of where i found this.

Old .40-82 cases I have found were at homesteads that I know were occupied from the late 1880s until probably the 1940s. Been looking around the house for some of my old "finds" but can't remember where i stashed them.

[Hobie]

Sounds as though you need a metal detector.

[Sixgun]

Vance,
IIRC, Mike Venturino killed some pronghorns with his 1894 in 38-55. Also IIRC, its in his book, "Leverguns". -----------Sixgun

[vancelw]

Sounds as though you need a metal detector.

I've got a Garrett Grand Master III Hunter and love it. Metal detecting is mainly a cool weather sport. Sun is hard on your neck.
I've found most of my brass while hunting. If there is no snow on the ground, I spend an embarrassing about of time looking at the ground instead of for game. My pockets are usually clinking: full of rocks and anything else I pick up. Most of the brass I find is modern, but it always surprises me the various calibers I find. Most recently 6mm Rem and .25-35.
The .38-55 I found while rock hunting near a geological survey marker. Still looking for that elusive spear or arrowhead. They are there, but I seem to be blind to them.
I use the metal detector around the homesteads. That's where I've found the .40-82 and .250-3000 Savage. My dad has used his detector (that cost about 500 dollars less than mine) to make similar finds. Usually the brass around homesteads is mangled from cattle trodding on it over the years.

I'm still looking for that jar of gold pieces buried in a post hole

[w30wcf]

My guess is 1960's-1970's. Olin (Winchester / Western) did some contract manufacturing for other outlets and the cases were headstamped with the caliber but not the manufacturer. If anyone has any Sears ammunition, you will note the absence of a brand name on the headstamp.

Regarding primers, as far as I know, plated primers came in around 1930. Winchester introduced their "Staynless" series at that time.

w30wcf