OT - Butchering a Russian... (91/30 to 91/59ish)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:38 pm

Over a year ago I bought a 91/30 to keep as a cheap truck gun.

Unfortunately the thing is longer than my cab is wide (well, the seat scabbard anyway)

So I'm a-gonna try my hand at Bubbaizing and lop 6" off the barrel - yet keep the original stock.

Here's the start - wood first:

I figure I can recontour the forshortened bits to take the metal end caps, then figure out how to do the barrel...

J Miller · Post by **J Miller** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:14 pm

Well, I guess that's one way to do it. But I think I would have gotten a shorter rifle. You still got time to glue the stock back together before you go any further .........

Joe

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 4:37 pm

The "shorter" one (M44) is more $$$ and the bayonette is not removable (though it does fold back).

I wanted a CHEAP, POWERFUL truck gun (not gonna risk the Rossi, nope, nope, nope). Plus when I DO get done modifying it, it will be a UNIQUE, CHEAP, POWERFUL truck gun - that will be easily ID'd if stolen.

Besides, if the stock doesn't work out, there is an ATI plastic one available for about $45...

And the reason I cut it back to where I did is so the original sling will still work.

markinalpine · Post by **markinalpine** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 5:59 pm

You might try the MilSurp Rifle site. The site itself isn't being updated, but they have an active forum you might take a gander at for sporterizing.
Good luck,
Mark

Collecting and Shooting the Military Surplus Rifle

Bruce Scott · Post by **Bruce Scott** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:32 pm

Kind of wandering away from simply chopping down the original stock but I thought this might be of interest.

"Stockman Rifle. 7.62 x 54 Russian
The idea for this rifle came from one of those discussions that are held round the camp fire or after the barbeque. It became known at this discussion that there was a requirement for a rifle that shot well priced military ammunition, powerful enough to shoot, Bulls, Cows Horses, Camels, Donkeys, Deer, Roo’s, Pigs, Dingo’s and knock over a Ram or two at the 500 metallic silhouette range. Of course as it was a knock about rifle for the working man to keep in the truck it had to be very rugged and have the stock designed with a high comb to use a scope to suit off hand shooting. The stock also had to absorb a lot of recoil from a powerful calibre without transferring too much of it to the shooter and also be bulky enough to protect the rifle. (many rifle which have a stock like a knife edge leave the scope and mounts very vulnerable if dropped) It had to be drilled and tapped to take Weaver style bases on top of the receiver. The Barrel had to be heavy, free floating from the stock and be still short and handy. Of course they wanted it to hit a fly on there prize bulls nose without hurting the bull.

Well there was a lot of bull around that night but all were seriously firm that it had to sell for less than $400. So Enfield Arms worked particularly hard and had the MAB barrels fitted to Mosin Nagant receivers, the bolt handles were modified to suit a scope the receivers were drilled and tapped and modified to take the mounts on top of the receiver. Wow, what would Vasily Zaytsev (Enemy at the Gate) have been able to achieve with a top scope mounted Mosin- Nagant action instead of his off set side mounts? Then Enfield Arms made a synthetic stock with a recoil pad made from absorb-athane. A soft dense polymer utherane ( Maybe got the spelling wrong) that has greater properties of absorbing recoil than rubber. They also have a five shot magazine. So except for the reconditioned reblued modified receiver they are a new rifle - For $395.00".
http://www.owenguns.com/newsletter/owen ... arch-2010/

JB · Post by JB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:33 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:The "shorter" one (M44) is more $$$ and the bayonette is not removable (though it does fold back).

I wanted a CHEAP, POWERFUL truck gun (not gonna risk the Rossi, nope, nope, nope). Plus when I DO get done modifying it, it will be a UNIQUE, CHEAP, POWERFUL truck gun - that will be easily ID'd if stolen.

Besides, if the stock doesn't work out, there is an ATI plastic one available for about $45...

And the reason I cut it back to where I did is so the original sling will still work.

Actually the bayonet is removable from a M44, or you could get a M38 and not have to butcher a 91/30.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:44 pm

JB wrote:....

Actually the bayonet is removable from a M44, or you could get a M38 and not have to butcher a 91/30.[/quote]

Though at $80 it begs the question... Why not?

JB · Post by JB » Wed Mar 02, 2011 6:58 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:
JB wrote:....
Actually the bayonet is removable from a M44, or you could get a M38 and not have to butcher a 91/30.

Though at $80 it begs the question... Why not?[/quote]

There some people that just hate to see the history destroyed. That $80.00 uncut might be worth much more one day. Cut down it dropped from a $80 rifle to a $50 rifle. But I don't get uptight like most collectors. If someone buys something and wants to alter or destroy it, it's their money. There are just options available without altering an original 91/30.

Post by **Hobie** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:11 pm

He's just made my 91 worth more. I'm all for it!

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:18 pm

Can't wait to see the final product OI. I'm all for customizing guns to fit your need especially when they are relatively inexpensive and readily-available. Describes the 91/30, and all the .22 bolt actions I've been refinishing. Good luck!

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 9:17 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: [img] then figure out how to do the barrel...

Hacksaw it off. Square the muzzle with files. Radius the muzzle with the same files. Touch up the crown with some valve grinding compound on the head of a brass screw set in an electric drill. Head out for the prairie dog patch.

Of course, you COULD chuck it up in a lathe and do it fancy, but that's no fun.

It aint like it's a priceless Kimber.

win38-55 · Post by **win38-55** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 10:52 pm

Don't do it you are wrecking a fine firearm. Go buy a pistol and wear it if you need a
truck gun. Please dont do it, Save the firearm.

JerryB · Post by **JerryB** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:06 pm

Hey OI, seeing as you more than likely paid for the rifle with your own cash money that you earned, CUT THE SUCKER OFF AND BUILD WHAT YOU WANT!! I think it sounds like a great and useful project.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Wed Mar 02, 2011 11:27 pm

I bought an M38 for the same purpose -- $50 more than my 91/30, but my long rifle is a sweet shooter and I didn't want risk spending the effort and ending up with a less-accurate gun.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:36 am

jnyork wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: [img] then figure out how to do the barrel...
Hacksaw it off. Square the muzzle with files. Radius the muzzle with the same files. Touch up the crown with some valve grinding compound on the head of a brass screw set in an electric drill. Head out for the prairie dog patch.

Of course, you COULD chuck it up in a lathe and do it fancy, but that's no fun.

It aint like it's a priceless Kimber.

That was the plan. The most interesting/difficult part (for me anyway) will be to re-mount the front sight elevator/bayonet lug.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 8:47 am

pssst

91/59

M38

remember when all those cheap 03's were on the market for under 100.00 and they hacked them up?.look at the price of them today.

I am with hobie you just made mine worth more

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:04 am

I love all original military arms but I also have a rack of sproters. Never done one myself but have been tempted several times. I bought my first Enfield for that very purpose but never did it. I've have had several Enfield sporters that were done in the '60s and '70s picked up on the cheap.

jb

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:28 am

txpete wrote:pssst

91/59

Well, since 91/59's are just Arsenal cut-down 91/30s (that are not readily available), and mine is going to look mighty like yours when I'm done, I don't think I'm all that worried about the outcome any more.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 9:42 am

just remember they had to modify the sights on the 91/59's

JB · Post by JB » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:11 am

Some 91/30's were made from cut down 91's, Krag Constabulary carbines were cut down Krags, but Bubba didn't do the work and the history and value aren't even on the same ball field!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:24 am

txpete wrote:just remember they had to modify the sights on the 91/59's

Yeah, they milled off 1000m from the rear elevator.

Oh, and as a gee-whiz, I looked around for 91/59's and the cheapest I could find on a quick google was $195.

It's still better to have an $80 throwaway than a $200 throwaway...

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:29 am

don't forget about the front post sight

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:41 am

txpete wrote:don't forget about the front post sight

Got it covered. Like I said, the biggest issue is the bayonet lug/sight mount.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 10:52 am

win38-55 wrote:Don't do it you are wrecking a fine firearm. Go buy a pistol and wear it if you need a
truck gun. Please dont do it, Save the firearm.

Wrecking it hell.......it's makin it better. I buy guns to shoot not to collect and while there's a chance that his gun may have value in his lifetime it's not likely. And the only history I really care about is U.S. history anyway. If he turns it from a gun that sits in a locker due to size and looks into something he'll carry, shoot and use GO FOR IT.

But the question remains that with some of the deals I've been seeing posted on the Stevens 200's I go that route. Maybe $225-$250 but you'll end up with a better gun IMO.

LK

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:47 am

I have definately seen some interesting MOSINS that have been sporterized. Be sure to post pics when your finished. I have the M44 and personally as tempting as it may be, (I have thought about it) I will never sporterize it. I bought it because I wanted a CHEAP truck gun. By the time you get a $100 gun, and spend the money on it to sporterize, you could have just as easily purchased a 1903 already sporterized or a modern Stevens, Mossberg, or Marlin X rifle.

As far as the bayonet goes, I would never remove it as I expect it to come in handy should I ever run out of ammo!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 11:51 am

horsesoldier03 wrote:I have definately seen some interesting MOSINS that have been sporterized. Be sure to post pics when your finished. I have the M44 and personally as tempting as it may be, (I have thought about it) I will never sporterize it. I bought it because I wanted a CHEAP truck gun. By the time you get a $100 gun, and spend the money on it to sporterize, you could have just as easily purchased a 1903 already sporterized or a modern Stevens, Mossberg, or Marlin X rifle.

As far as the bayonet goes, I would never remove it as I expect it to come in handy should I ever run out of ammo!

I'm trying to avoid spending money on it. Working with only hand tools and not buying "sporterizing" stuff takes time.

I have lots of time and little money.

Oh, & FWIW, none of the SNs match and it's been electro-penciled everywhere... so it's NOT anywhere near a collectible...

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 12:44 pm

Hack away! The only way these Russians will ever be worth anything is if far more of 'em get bubbaed.

Most important thing? HAVE FUN.

Best,
Oly

markinalpine · Post by **markinalpine** » Thu Mar 03, 2011 4:14 pm

jnyork wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote: [img] then figure out how to do the barrel...
Hacksaw it off. Square the muzzle with files. Radius the muzzle with the same files. Touch up the crown with some valve grinding compound on the head of a brass screw set in an electric drill. Head out for the prairie dog patch.

Of course, you COULD chuck it up in a lathe and do it fancy, but that's no fun.

It aint like it's a priceless Kimber.

Sorry it took me some time to remember and find this article about one way to NOT shorten a barrel: Crime Lab: Abused Guns
Note: This is page 2 of the article.
"Want A Shorter Barrel?
One criminal mind found a unique tool for quickly shortening the barrel of a .22 rimfire revolver: a tubing cutter. He didn't bother to clean up the huge burr that protruded into the bore. What resulted was a uniquely shaped bullet that even the novice CSI person could associate with his gun. We called the revolver the "squirt gun" due to the strange shape of the fired bullets. When the gun became part of the lab's permanent collection of oddities, we used a micro-flash system to "freeze-frame" the bullet exiting the barrel. I present the photos on page 10 for your viewing pleasure."

Mark

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:50 pm

Hack away OI !

I'm in your camp on this one ---- the Mosin's have a small following but will never be worth as much as a secondhand mini-14 or MArlin 336 (even with more power ) -- may as well make it something more usable for you

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:02 pm

I have a few finn sako mosins I wouldn't trade for a trunk full of marlins or mini's.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:54 am

Streetstar wrote:Hack away OI ! I'm in your camp on this one ---- the Mosin's have a small following but will never be worth as much as a secondhand mini-14 or MArlin 336 (even with more power ) -- may as well make it something more usable for you

I am part of that small following and it maybe as you say, but am with Pete, I have a few that are right now worth more than Marlin 336's and Ruger Mini 14's. So the more hacked to death the more mine will increase!! hahahahahaha

Steve

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 11:59 am

steve these guys don't get it.

in 1951 there was only 1,699 finn M28's left in the finn inventory.that was counting tikka and sigs which were assembled by sako.these are some of the rarest military rifles ever made and very accurate rifles.the finn M28's were used as their sniper rifle for years.
I would rather see them hacksaw a marlin or a winchester than these rifles or buy a bigger truck

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBeYRslzK4c&NR=1

Mike D. · Post by **Mike D.** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:56 pm

I have seen those junkers locally for as little as $59.95, but they don't at all appeal to me. Cheap and fugly, chop away if you want to. There is no collector value in Nagants.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:05 pm

you just showed how much you DON'T know about rifles.

JB · Post by JB » Sat Mar 05, 2011 7:07 pm

Mike D. wrote: There is no collector value in Nagants.

I assume that was humor.

dsmith512 · Post by **dsmith512** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 9:05 pm

Don't cut it down. You could get a bullpup stock for it.

from CBRPS http://www.cbrps.com/Products.html

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Mar 05, 2011 10:25 pm

JB wrote:
Mike D. wrote: There is no collector value in Nagants.
I assume that was humor.

Even a homely gal can have a few suitors if she tries hard enough

Any collector value a rare Nagant has , has been muddied by the thousands of cosmoline soaked $80 dollar specials that have been imported

kind of like the SKS's 15 to 20 years ago --- few people would pay a plug nickel more for a Russian SKS at $250 when a Chinese version could be had for 80 - 100 dollars

But with reverance to TXPete's collection, i have seen the photos of some of your carbine length Mosins, I would welcome a few of those into my gun safe anytime !

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:56 am

Streetstar wrote: Any collector value a rare Nagant has , has been muddied by the thousands of cosmoline soaked $80 dollar specials that have been imported

Not true. A rare variant is rare no matter how many "regular" versions come in and a collector will usually pay the premium required. Will they command the prices collectors pay for rare Springfield or K98 variants? No, but the serious MN collector pool is much smaller as well.

Having said that, I see no issue sporterizing one of the "common" 91/30s. Comparing a Finn or one of the more uncommon/rare variants to say, a '44 Tula, is an apples and oranges comparison IMO. It's sort of like Chevelles. A '68 302 Malibu and a '68 SS 396 might be the same vehicle, but they ain't the same vehicle if you catch my drift.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:01 am

[quote="Old Ironsights"]Over a year ago I bought a 91/30 to keep as a cheap truck gun.

Unfortunately the thing is longer than my cab is wide (well, the seat scabbard anyway)

So I'm a-gonna try my hand at Bubbaizing and lop 6" off the barrel - yet keep the original stock.

Here's the start - wood first:

awp101
Having said that, I see no issue sporterizing one of the "common" 91/30s. Comparing a Finn or one of the more uncommon/rare variants to say, a '44 Tula, is an apples and oranges comparison IMO. It's sort of like Chevelles. A '68 302 Malibu and a '68 SS 396 might be the same vehicle, but they ain't the same vehicle if you catch my drift.

I have to disagree.bubba doesn't have a clue what a common 91/30 is.
what if he took a pic of the reciever and it was a hex and SA stamped and had a DDR stamp.then would it just be a cheap 80.00 junker?.
what if it looked like this

hmm would he take a hacksaw to this one or the bubba out in ca prop his back door open with it because its to fugly to shoot?.BTW there is maybe a handful of these in the US.

I saved this one from a bubba that was going to drill and tap it and mount a scope on it.he also thought it was a M44

if any bubba wants to go on the firing line with his marlin 336 or mini-14 and shoot for lunch let me know.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:17 am

txpete wrote:[awp101
Having said that, I see no issue sporterizing one of the "common" 91/30s. Comparing a Finn or one of the more uncommon/rare variants to say, a '44 Tula, is an apples and oranges comparison IMO. It's sort of like Chevelles. A '68 302 Malibu and a '68 SS 396 might be the same vehicle, but they ain't the same vehicle if you catch my drift.

I have to disagree.bubba doesn't have a clue what a common 91/30 is.
if any bubba wants to go on the firing line with his marlin 336 or mini-14 and shoot for lunch let me know.

Yes, but the automobile comparison does not wash. A long bed stepside Chevrolet pickup is pretty rare, but is not worth anything. (over and above its value as basic transportation) A Nash station wagon is also rare, but again, not worth anything.

The scarcity of an item does not always correlate into extra value. An item has to be scarce and desirable at the same time to have an enhanced value

As far as hitting the firing line for lunch , again, you might be a better shot than somebody else regardless of rifle choice. Me personally, the only way i am out-shooting some of you guys is if you assign me a handicap and let me use my varmint rifle with big optic

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:02 am

Here's a better comparison for ya that we at LeverGuns can appreciate.................How about a rusted post '64 94 vs a pristine pre '64 94? Who here is gonna complain about parkerizing the first gun? But most would cringe at the idea of doing the second unless it was absolutely trashed. Most Mosins don't look nearly as good as the ones txpete posted and bubba-ing a beater Mosin shouldn't be a big deal in anyone eyes. And for the record, I'd still bubba the ones pictured above

But then again I'd rather Bubba an Enfeild.

LK

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:13 am

If you read the American rifleman from the 60's , They show how to sporterize all the military rifles. The 03's, 17's, Mauser's of all years and the 6'5 Swede's. Nothing has changed. 60 years from now it will jus be a good deal for someone AND they will wish they could talk to guy who did it and know the rifles history

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:13 pm

I think what this boils down to is collecting, yes to the uninformed and untrained eye all Mosin Nagant M91/30's all look alike. So a Tikka 91/30 look exactly the same as a Tula 91/30, but the difference in 250.00 dollars. Yes, there a tons of "cheap" Russian surplussed 91/30's for sale now, but like the K98's were also "cheap" when the were put out on the surplus market.

Just look at the prices of M38 and M44's, 2 years ago you could get them for 79.00 for nice Ukraine refurbished, now they start at 150.00 if you can find any.

So I will stick with Pete on this issue.

Again, OI it is your rifle do with it what you want, but to collectors it hurts to see it being chopped up, who knows what history is being chopped.

Steve

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:20 pm

txpete wrote:steve these guys don't get it.
in 1951 there was only 1,699 finn M28's left in the finn inventory.that was counting tikka and sigs which were assembled by sako.these are some of the rarest military rifles ever made and very accurate rifles.the finn M28's were used as their sniper rifle for years.
I would rather see them hacksaw a marlin or a winchester than these rifles or buy a bigger truck .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JBeYRslzK4c&NR=1

Sorry OI I'm stealing your thread here,

Pete,
I just got into my Finn loving hands a 28-76 target/sniper. It is absolutely sweet!! Slugs out at .299/.308, very, very tight chamber. I had to set my Lee sizing die a low as possible, the die is hitting the ram, to get the shoulder far enough back to chamber. I have been really really busy, but I hope to have some more loads reloaded to try. I was using IMR3031 and its to fast, I am going to try IMR4895 and AA2520 and possibly AA3100, along with some Lapua D-46 .308 bullets.
Steve

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:22 pm

steve IIRC those were made from M28/30 actions which had a .308 bore.
in my M28/30 I have used AA2520 and its a very good powder.data in lee's first reloading book.
for cast loads

160 gr lee tl sized .309
13.0 grs red dot
norma brass
win LR primer

for a zippy load 19.0 grs AA5744 is also very accurate.

well gotta go as I am taking a hacksaw to my win 94 "rifle" and cutting it down to 16.25 inches so it fits in my 350Z

JB · Post by JB » Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:58 pm

txpete wrote: well gotta go as I am taking a hacksaw to my win 94 "rifle" and cutting it down to 16.25 inches so it fits in my 350Z

Go ahead. They made 8 million 94's. They'll never be collectible.

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 4:54 pm

thats the point and they are so fugly I wouldn't want to shoot that rattle trap anyways.

SteveR · Post by **SteveR** » Sun Mar 06, 2011 9:19 pm

hahahaha! nice Pete!!

Most people understand when its what they collect...........................but I do understand its OI's gun and he can do what he pleases with it.

Pete over at http://www.7.62x54r.net there are some pics http://7.62x54r.net/Forums/index.php?topic=9751.0 of my 76-28 with a Finn type adjustable trigger, only one I know of with it.

Steve

txpete · Post by **txpete** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:14 am

nice steve and it does look like a modified M 27 trigger.

I wouldn't post any pics of the rifle here as they don't need to see another cheap $59.00 rifle

pete

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:11 am

Edit: Woops, I see that I'm flagellating a deceased equus.

I'll just offer this juicy bit:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewIt ... =218313417

Regards,
Oly