OT: High costs and future of hunting

[SFRanger7GP]

I am going to vent for awhile. I just received an email from a high fence ranch that I took my wife to a few years ago that has me thinking. We went there once for my wife to take her first deer. It was close and I felt the cost was reasonable for what I wanted to accomplish. We went there for her to cull a doe and I used none of their services. They showed me the entire set up after my wife had taken her doe. It was OK (at best) and their prices for anything with a horn was ridiculous. Today, I get an email with their "book early promotions". They want $4500 for a buck up to 150! Of course, that includes a hog (wow!) and food and lodging. If I want to bring a non-hunter with me, $250 a day. I am sorry, but a double wide trailer with a nice tv and some crappy food does not rate $250 day lodging. Nor does a feed lot cull buck rate $4500.

Now this isn't anything unusual in 2011. I have no problem paying to hunt, but if we are not careful it will become an elite sport like in Europe. Hunting will become too expensive or just be a closed fence live stock shoot. Or worse, children will not get to participate and then hunting and firearms rights will just fade away one day. Remember years ago when you could go in with a few buddies and lease property so the families would have a nice place to camp, hunt and fish? I hear farmers and ranchers crying about the hogs ruining everything. Offer to help them control the population and they price them hogs like they are SCI Big 5 trophies! In Texas, there are more "outfitters" and "guides" than South Florida has realtors. The typical "outfitter" and "guide" is just a local with a dirty pick up truck that has access to the land. I know these guys give real, hard working guides and outfitters a bad name, but it is the norm now days.

Sadly enough, hunting has changed. I see too many "get rich quick schemes", "bait and switch", and just flat out lying and stealing. Many only care about getting all your money today and could care less about repeat business or your children and grandchildren being future clients. Fortunately, I only had one bad experience early and learned a lot from it. I now do a lot of investigating that often includes a visit before I lay down my money. When I see these type of bad ranches and outfitters, I make sure that they know I will not be giving them my business nor recommending them. I also tell them why and what it would take to get my business. I have seen more than one good ranch or lodge go out of business lately. You can rest assured Obama and the gang will not be bailing out this industry. They'll just sit back and laugh as we destroy ourselves and fade away.

[86er]

I agree with most of what you said. We never charge for a non-hunter (except in Africa). If you're using a room and paying for it, I don't care how many people you cram in your bed - that's your business. We have the longest standing same-owner exotic ranch in Texas, 24 years. The prices haven't changed in a long time. We do not offer deer hunts as we feel deer hunting is a different type of hunting that is best done by itself in conditions better suited for the deer. We don't size-structure our prices. In other words, a deer under a certain size is one price and over is another. That's it, no tier pricing. We still have meat hunts and cull hunts for $200-$350 so the working guy, teenager or whomever can afford to come hunt with us. There's no additional fee for lodging on our exotic hunts. Here are some things you might not know: The short term liability insurance for a hunter on our property come out to about $96 for 3 1/2 days per hunter. In Texas, if you charge for lodging you are supposed to collect occupancy tax and maintain an Innkeepers License (A lot of hunting lodges are taking your money without following the law). If you offer prepared and served food you are supposed to have a Restaurant Permit (that requires annual inspection) and collect food tax. IF a place does have an Innkeepers License and Restaurant Permit that have to recoup the cost of operating and collect the tax. That is where a legitimate lodging/food offering costs more money. Also, the exotic market is inflated right now and the deer market is at a premium. We have several species that breed freely on the ranches we hunt so the actual cost per animal for us is lower than if we bought individual animals as people wanted them. That's also why our deer hunting ranches may be high or low fence but either way there is no manipulation, introduction or interference with the otherwise natural behavior of the deer. If you don't get one with us, you don't pay. Other places make sure you get one, sometimes by artificial means. They are also selling by size. There are still good ranches that offer fair pricing for hunts. They tend to be less advertised. We have a huge repeat business and we can only handle so many folks because we aren't overpopulated or getting an animal brought in for each hunt. The high volume guys will book as many as they can and then do whatever it takes to "give" you the animal you want. Don't get completely turned off to outfitters and ranches - there are still a bunch of good ones left. I'm happy to provide you with a list of options on where to go if you're interested. Typically, a deer hunt for a trophy buck is $2000-$2500. Of that, figure $96 for insurance, probably $100 or more in diesel, $50-75 to run electric for lodge and cooler plus water pump, worker for the day at around $100. So there's at least $300-350 cost. A mature deer sized animal eats approximately $340 of supplemental feed per year for 4 or 5 years to maturity. So you see the profit margin in minimal. If you do it right, you have enough fair business to make a decent living. Some of the greedy guys are trying to get rich on it.

[BigSky56]

7, I believe that with all the land in the east being private and very little public land your at the mercy of land owners it gets better as you head west with premium hunting around MT,Wyo,CO and ID with over the counter tags for residents at minimal cost, those same states have nonresident tags but they are spendy 500-1000$. Tie up with someone out here and come out hunting maybe you'll stay, you'll like the cat hunting danny

[Malamute]

Danny's right. Things are different in the west. There are some flaky guide services, but there's some very good ones also. Us local hillbillies just go buy a tag over the counter for most things and go out on public land and hunt. The expense is tag, gas, and food to go out. Some head off on horses for a week or two. A few just shoot a deer in their yard.

[SFRanger7GP]

I know there are some really good outfitters and ranches out there. 86er, I had a great time when you set me up with Richard for meat buffalo.

BigSky56, I have hunted Montana and Colorado with friends and had a great time as well. Almost moved to Montana after retiring from the Army but decided to stay working for awhile. The wife and I decided we would work a little longer while we are still young. Good huning is definitely on our list of "must haves" when we retire again.

By the way, I can get some good hunts in Argentina if someone is interested in trading hunts.

[Marlin32]

I have been to 86'er's once. Class place, you will not be disappointed or in anyway do you not know what you are getting or paying for. Plus 86er is interesting dude to talk too and Richard is a hoot and pure Texican. Tell him what it is you want out or from the hunt, and I think he can make that happen.

I am not a big fan of paying anyone to hunt. I don't really care to have a guide, although sometimes a necessity depending on situation. (but I still don't like it)

Paying to hunt a white tail is beyond my imagination. You can probably come up to Nebraska and shoot one without too much of a problem, except getting a non-rez permit. The NGPC will even help pair you up with farmer/rancher wanting to reduce the herd on their premises.

[Mike D.]

Our late season Mulie hunt here in CA is going to cost each of us an extra $200, raising the total for the 8 days to $1300. That's just the fee to hunt the ranch. No guarantees, but everyone usually gets a good buck if they are willing to work for it.

[tman]

Seeing more advertisements for canned hunts in Penna. While we still have public game lands, they are barren wastelands devoid of game. Sadly, private lands are shrinking, looks like the future will be tamed TROPHY kills per pay. Kind of makes me sick.

[pittman_clay]

i work for one of the longer running operations here in the panhandle of tx Plaska Lodge and can say that there is a wide swing in the quality of outfitters, usually the less reputable ones dont last to long. boss charges alot and caters to trophy hunters offering low and high fence but he has found a market and keeps booked but he puts out a lot of money each year to keep it runnin, the cost of running a lodge like 86er said as well as making land payments on leases keeping 40 corn feeders and 6 protien feeders running and full of corn( down to $6 from 12) plowing and planting several hundred acres of food plots so for a good outfitter to operate its not just taking people hunting, that being said i to miss when you could just call up a farmer and go hunting, i grew up in a county with no deer season and close to a ranch my dad had formally managed so i spent nearly every day after school hunting rabbits, yotes and p-dogs, got a big awakening when i moved to trophy country being here for several years now and i still dont have a place to hunt for my self, catch-22 trophy hunting has put a value on deer and thay are so well managed that now we have more than we ever have where i live but to expensive for a working man to hunt

[AJMD429]

Here are some things you might not know: The short term liability insurance for a hunter on our property come out to about $96 for 3 1/2 days per hunter. In Texas, if you charge for lodging you are supposed to collect occupancy tax and maintain an Innkeepers License (A lot of hunting lodges are taking your money without following the law). If you offer prepared and served food you are supposed to have a Restaurant Permit (that requires annual inspection) and collect food tax. IF a place does have an Innkeepers License and Restaurant Permit that have to recoup the cost of operating and collect the tax. That is where a legitimate lodging/food offering costs more money.

Sounds like lots of the COST of hunting (like everything else these days) falls back on the fact that we have more and more TAXES and REGULATIONS...

[El Chivo]

kind of makes me glad I'm out here in CA, not a lot of deer but there are SOME, and plenty of public land. Not too many hunters after opening day depending on where you go. So costs are low tho frustration can be high when they start closing areas down. The more committed hunters get their deer.

It comes down to the joy of the hunt vs. the trophy.

[bigbore442001]

To the best of my knowledge, Florida has a number of tracts of public land such as national forest land as well as a number of wildlife management areas. I know they get pounded with pressure but if I lived in the Sunshine State I'd look into one of the limited draw hunts for a better quality of time spent in the wilds.

[pdawg.shooter]

I have a friend that works and lives in the Texas panhandle. He was home 2 Christmas ago and was telling me about all the farmers complaining about hog damage. I told him to give them my name and I would be glad to help them out. Last Christmas he told me they all said welcome, but all wanted $100.+ per day. Excuse me? It is their problem and they want to charge me to help them out? That aint gonna happen. Let them live with their losses!

[t.r.]

I'll pretend to be a prophet and forecast the future of east coast hunting. These will be the only approved weapons of the future for deer hunting:

- archery including crossbow

- muzzle-loader

- shotgun

The anti-gun crowd seems to be growing. Eventually, they'll buy the right Judges with their Lobbyists - ownership of centerfire rifles and handguns will be banned.

I hunt with my friends on an active Army Base in Maryland. This because Maryland private lands are posted and its non-productive to talk to horse farm owners about hunting privileges. Public Lands in Maryland are becoming more difficult to access.

TR

[Blaine]

HUGE amounts of land to hunt on for free out here in WA.....

[RIHMFIRE]

Down south, most of us lease property from private landowners...
timber companies....etc. etc. for the entire year....

To me its a better deal than going to an outfitter....because you can go hunting
as many times as you want...bring the camper...and stay for as long as you want...
In Florida the closer you get to the beach....the higher the cost per acre.....
pay a $1000 for a 3 to 4 day hunt....or get into a $1000 lease for the entire year...HMMM

Florida has +/- a million acres of public land to hunt....that is...if you get the
random draw required permits... some of the permits are limited entry..
some permmits only allow a certain number of hunters for the first 9 days...
and then anyone can hunt after that...Each WMA has its own rules pending
on the game hunted...Florida only has about 200000 hunters....

BTW it still a great idea to go on an outfitted hunt....just to see
the rest of the country...its almost a necessity if you want to hunt elk and such

[1988rrc]

And we have trouble finding enough members to join our 1400 acres leased hunting club at $1,000.00 per year.

[L_Kilkenny]

All I can speak about is hunting here in Iowa. It's definitely tougher now than 20 years ago. As a matter of fact, it's the main reason I no longer run coon hounds. Back in the 80's timber ground went cheap. If you couldn't farm it they almost gave it away. Jump ahead to this century and these same timbers are going for big money. IIRC tillable land here in Iowa is going for around $4000 an acre where as all the timbers have been bought up by developers and are divided into 3-4 acre lots which were sellin for $50,000-$100,000 each. Also, with the influx of city folk even if there is only one house owning 3 or 4 acres they make it tough to run hounds due to their misguided beliefs and bitchin and moanin. What has been left over has been purchased by rich folk for their own private hunting preserves or is pretty well locked up by people who have been hunting the land for years. Lucky for me I have good relationships with land owners I've known for years. I'd hate to try to do all my hunting on the limited public ground around these parts.

As for paying to hunt...Other than tags and license and gear (which is enough money) I've never paid a cent. The day I have pay someone to hunt I've give it up or go peasant.

LK

[JohndeFresno]

Excuse the non-reply. My "comment" here only so I can follow this thread's follow-ups; I'm a big fan of 86er's organization and hope to hunt with him some day when I'm not facing health issues. Tagged for follow-up; no clever repartee.

[jjames]

I know costs are starting to impact my hunting choices. I recently got an email from Montana that basically increased out-of-state hunting costs 50% for tags. I just hunt to put venision in the freezer but had previously always applied for a buck tag because they were not that expensive and there was a chance of running across a nice buck now and then. I won't be applying for anymore buck tags and I will probably cut my trip to 1 week instead of 2.5 weeks. The State and the local community will be losing a lot of this hunter's cash. The deer are generally so thick where I hunt that vehicle collisons are frequent and the ranchers have actually ask that we shoot as many doe as we want and leave them for the coyotes because of the crop damage. I have declined the invitation but it illustrates there is no shortage of deer.