OT--Penetration, 45 Colt

[getitdone1]

Was asked by a member about the penetration of the standard factory 45 Colt cartridge. I bought a box of Winchester 255 gr cartridges, about 860 fps, and gave them a try yesterday. Had a problem with the bullet tumbling and veering off to right and up. Still, it did very well and went through 6 gallon, plastic milk jugs filled with water. It missed #7 and was a little high on #6 where it exited so another test needs to be done. I expect this is close to what it will penetrate. (How's that compared to most factory loads for the center-fire rifles going through 4-5 jugs?)

I've learned a big lesson about heavy, slow lead bullets: Those things penetrate! The Remington factory 405 gr 45-70 load at around 1330 fps went through 10, jugs showed no evidence of expansion and 10 jugs was all I had on the board! This too needs another test. A near duplicate reload using Remington 400 gr SP bullet went through 8--but that too was all the jugs I had on the board at that time. It too needs another test. No end to this!

The 45 Colt might only have been going around 825 since my gun has 4 3/4" bbl. I love this gun which is made by AWA and is a very close copy of the Colt SAA. One piece wooden grips. It cost much less than the Colt. It's a big bore but really rather compact and light. It's just "got it." Is this company still in business?

Don

[J Miller]

Don,

Thanks for doing the test. It confirms what I've always thought about the .45. It may not be the fastest but it's darn hard to stop.

I think you are right about the velocity from your gun. The Winchester specs are derived from a 5.5" test barrel so real life guns usually run slower.

As for AWA I don't know if they are still around or not. "I THINK" but am not sure the AWA stood for American Western Arms. Might try a Google on them.

I sent you an email a week or so ago through the forums system. Did it ever get to you?

Joe

[adirondakjack]

When the bullet construction is matched to the velocity, you get LOTS of penetration. What ya don't get is that expansion that tends to tear up stuff more RIGHT NOW, put yes, you will poke holes deep through stuff...

In my .45 Colt BH, I have run 318 grain HARD cast Lee GC bullets at 1300 fps. They will stop in the third gallon jug, after totally destroying, "unwrapping" the first two..... The same bullet at 800 fps would probably cheese right through 6 or 8 jugs BECAUSE the velocity is insufficent to cause an immediate "energy dump" by upsetting the nose of the bullet....

[w30wcf]

getitdone1,
Thank you for the test and result. The less than straight penetration of the bullet is due to the small meplat. If you shot a Keith or LBT bullet, both of which have wide meplats, you would find that they would penetrate fairly straight.

w30wcf

[Malamute]

I recall reading an old testimonial for Colts revolvers. It was by an English hunter that was in the States hunting in the 1870's I believe. His hunting party had a run in with a bear, and the bear was shot with a number of rifles including Winchesters of 1873 and 1876 models. The guide shot the bear with his Colt 45 revolver also, and those bullets penetrated deeper than the rifle bullets did when they examined the dead bear. I was a bit surprised that the 45 Colt penetrated deeper than the 76 models bullets, but that was what the testimonial said.

[J Miller]

When I first began hand loading the .45 Colt there was no source of cast SWC bullets. As a matter of fact other than the soft Speer SWC and the Hornady jacketed HP there was no bullets available for the .45 Colt.
So I had to cast my own bullets. I cast a ton of Ideal 454190s and shot them from my various .45s. They were cast from wheel weights so they were not overly hard and sized to .454". Even back then I tried to duplicate the factory load as much as possible.
I have a few of those bullets I recovered over the years and none of them show much deformation. From what I saw when I dug them out, or found them later, usually after a rain storm, they just kept drilling along until they ran out of steam.

I'd like to try the 454190 bullets along side of the factory bullets in the water jug test.
Sigh, I just gotta find me a place I can do fun things at.

Joe

[getitdone1]

When I first began hand loading the .45 Colt there was no source of cast SWC bullets. As a matter of fact other than the soft Speer SWC and the Hornady jacketed HP there was no bullets available for the .45 Colt.
So I had to cast my own bullets. I cast a ton of Ideal 454190s and shot them from my various .45s. They were cast from wheel weights so they were not overly hard and sized to .454". Even back then I tried to duplicate the factory load as much as possible.
I have a few of those bullets I recovered over the years and none of them show much deformation. From what I saw when I dug them out, or found them later, usually after a rain storm, they just kept drilling along until they ran out of steam.

I'd like to try the 454190 bullets along side of the factory bullets in the water jug test.
Sigh, I just gotta find me a place I can do fun things at.

Joe

Joe,

A farmer with a varmit problem might give you a place to shoot as well as an opportunity to shoot the varmits. Of course he'd have to be convinced there'd be no safety problems on his place as well as neighbors in the vicinity.

Don

[getitdone1]

I could be wrong but I think if I took all the bullets I've shot thru water and shot them through ballistics geletan, wood and even meat they'd show about the same, relative, results.

I mention this in response to many who think water is a poor medium for use in testing bullet performance.

If someone can show me different then that's what I want to know. I don't need to be right, I want to know what IS right relative to bullet performance.

The "bone factor" when it comes to true performance on animals--especially big ones--is a tough medium to duplicate. I expect that a long, tough bullet with a flat nose would be hard to beat for penetration of bone and a FMJ might be best for this.

I recall some people who used several handgun cartridges for shooting at pigs confined in a pen. They used a big range of cartridges and it came down to bullet placement.

Don

[J Miller]

MANY, MANY, MANY, summers ago me and Charlie went to McCabe, an old ghost mining town in the Bradshaws in AZ and did a ton of shooting. This was before they reopened the mines. I haven't been back since.

But there was one wash that was about 10 feet deep. The bank on the far side was a mixture of trailings, sediment, and dirt about the consistency of soft clay.

One day we sat on the close side and shot into the far bank. The bullets would leave a hole with edges splayed out that did not collapse. I wanted to climb down into the wash and see if I couldn't retrieve the bullets. But I did not want to dig into the bank for fear it would collapse.

A year passed and we went back there and all of our bullet holes were still there. Perfectly preserved as if we'd just shot them. I was a bit po'd that I'd forgotten my long gotcha tool.

But that mixture was about the most perfect stuff I've ever found to shoot into. Sadly I never did recover any of those bullets.

Joe

[Rimfire McNutjob]

I need to start a water jug stash so I can join in on the fun. I've got two boys, 17 and 15, and they take down about 7 gallon jugs of milk a week. More if there are chocolate poptarts in the pantry. I should have a pretty good stash by the Fall.

I want to shoot some Swift A-frames into some water jugs.

[adirondakjack]

I don't doubt the .45 Colt revolver load penetrated deeper than the rifle bullets back in the day. Rifle bullets of the 1870s were no harder than revolver bullets, yet were shot faster, in the 1200 fps rage, compared to 800 and change from a revolver. At 1200 fps yer gonna mushroom a soft lead bullet, causing it to ball up, splash more tissue, and penetrate less than a rnfp with a small meplat that stays pretty close to the unfired shape, allowing it to whistle through tissue.....

In those days "real" rifle calibers like .45-70 used HEAVY bullets that would get by on momentum despite mushrooming. But a .44-40 bullet of roughly the same weight or a little less than a .45 Colt will penetrate LESS if driven faster.....

[AJMD429]

I don't doubt the .45 Colt revolver load penetrated deeper than the rifle bullets back in the day. Rifle bullets of the 1870s were no harder than revolver bullets, yet were shot faster, in the 1200 fps rage, compared to 800 and change from a revolver. At 1200 fps yer gonna mushroom a soft lead bullet, causing it to ball up, splash more tissue, and penetrate less than a rnfp with a small meplat that stays pretty close to the unfired shape, allowing it to whistle through tissue.

Yep.

I'm beginning to believe that for practical hunting scenarios, there is NO advantage of super-sonic velocity for shooting out to 100 yards or so; 900 fps will give you a flat enough trajectory for reasonable accuracy with an 'estimated hold-over' with even a wad-cutter shaped bullet.

If you want to do that kind of shooting at really long range (500 yards plus), you just have to have enough energy retained to be humane, so you either need a really heavy bullet, with a shape allowing you to keep much of that 900 fps muzzle velocity out there, OR you need a really fast bullet, able to stay super-sonic until the destination. Unless made specifically for the intended target, that really fast bullet may not penetrate very well, but the trade-off is that unless you know your range precisely, and know your hold-over precisely, your faster bullet is a bit less likely to miss due to elevation issues.

I recall a previous poster where the .50 BMG factory FMJ penetrated less jugs than a .45-70 'vintage' load, but it would be interesting to see what a FMJ .50 BMG bullet would do if fired at the 900-1000 fps velocity...

(I'm betting that it could even surpass the hard-cast .45-70 bullet, since it is a more 'indestructable' bullet at those lower velocities.)

[markinalpine]

I need to start a water jug stash so I can join in on the fun. I've got two boys, 17 and 15, and they take down about 7 gallon jugs of milk a week. More if there are chocolate poptarts in the pantry. I should have a pretty good stash by the Fall.

I want to shoot some Swift A-frames into some water jugs.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to read the articles at the Box O' Truth
particularily the Original Chapters.
Mark

[adirondakjack]

I don't doubt the .45 Colt revolver load penetrated deeper than the rifle bullets back in the day. Rifle bullets of the 1870s were no harder than revolver bullets, yet were shot faster, in the 1200 fps rage, compared to 800 and change from a revolver. At 1200 fps yer gonna mushroom a soft lead bullet, causing it to ball up, splash more tissue, and penetrate less than a rnfp with a small meplat that stays pretty close to the unfired shape, allowing it to whistle through tissue.

Yep.

I'm beginning to believe that for practical hunting scenarios, there is NO advantage of super-sonic velocity for shooting out to 100 yards or so; 900 fps will give you a flat enough trajectory for reasonable accuracy with an 'estimated hold-over' with even a wad-cutter shaped bullet.

If you want to do that kind of shooting at really long range (500 yards plus), you just have to have enough energy retained to be humane, so you either need a really heavy bullet, with a shape allowing you to keep much of that 900 fps muzzle velocity out there, OR you need a really fast bullet, able to stay super-sonic until the destination. Unless made specifically for the intended target, that really fast bullet may not penetrate very well, but the trade-off is that unless you know your range precisely, and know your hold-over precisely, your faster bullet is a bit less likely to miss due to elevation issues.

I recall a previous poster where the .50 BMG factory FMJ penetrated less jugs than a .45-70 'vintage' load, but it would be interesting to see what a FMJ .50 BMG bullet would do if fired at the 900-1000 fps velocity...

(I'm betting that it could even surpass the hard-cast .45-70 bullet, since it is a more 'indestructable' bullet at those lower velocities.)

A .50 BMG downloaded to 1000 or 1200 fps would pass through tissue like a field arrow. Big whoop! They did that in 1866 with the .50-70, and they didn't cost $5 a pop, nor require a "crew-served" weapon

[getitdone1]

I need to start a water jug stash so I can join in on the fun. I've got two boys, 17 and 15, and they take down about 7 gallon jugs of milk a week. More if there are chocolate poptarts in the pantry. I should have a pretty good stash by the Fall.

I want to shoot some Swift A-frames into some water jugs.

If you haven't already done so, you might want to read the articles at the Box O' Truth
particularily the Original Chapters.
Mark

Mark,

Thanks for the link. Lots of interesting tests there.
Don

[the telegraphist]

The 45 Colt works superbly nothing more needs to be said. BS apart it is a survivor. I love that cartridge in a SAA. Those cartridges from 1873 including the 44WCF and 38WCF are to this day hard to go past. They get the job done no messing. You dont have to hunt around for your brass either. Tried and tested by time.

[Malamute]

Don, have you looked at Linebaughs tests? He did some with bones. No test ever exactly duplicates bullets in true animal tissue, but he did perhaps expend more effort to duplicate animals by including bones. The tests are interesting, but we should keep in mind, they only shot 2 rounds of each. We try to remind guys that one or two game animals doesnt make a definative statement about how a cartridge or load will perform in general on game, we need to keep that in mind on any tests we devise or look at. Still, good and interesting information.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh ... .tests.asp

[BAGTIC]

"A .50 BMG downloaded to 1000 or 1200 fps would pass through tissue like a field arrow. Big whoop! They did that in 1866 with the .50-70, and they didn't cost $5 a pop, nor require a "crew-served" weapon"


I suspect the spitzer nose on the 50 BMG would cause it to tumble. It might still penetrate a long ways but I would not be surprised if it backed through... base first.

[getitdone1]

Don, have you looked at Linebaughs tests? He did some with bones. No test ever exactly duplicates bullets in true animal tissue, but he did perhaps expend more effort to duplicate animals by including bones. The tests are interesting, but we should keep in mind, they only shot 2 rounds of each. We try to remind guys that one or two game animals doesnt make a definative statement about how a cartridge or load will perform in general on game, we need to keep that in mind on any tests we devise or look at. Still, good and interesting information.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh ... .tests.asp

Thanks Malamute.

Yes I've seen it. If a fast 30 caliber bullet mushrooms to 50 cal and kills like lightening--usually-when animal hit in vitals, that's good. If it hits big bone without penetrating, that's not good. If a slow 45-50 caliber bullet hits animals vitals, dead animal. Maybe not as fast as with the fast, smaller bullets--but dead animal. If a slow 45-50 caliber bullet can punch through heavy bone too, and, leave a good blood trail, and they do--then maybe, for MOST shots, this beautifully mushroomed, fast bullet doesn't amount to much--except bullet sales.

Appears that flat trajectory for scoped rifles for long shots is the best part of modern day bullets and cartridges. That is a great feature, no doubt about it. For shots from 0-200 yds not much has been gained. Assuming average hunter, average ability. An expert slow bullet shooter can do wonders at longer distances.

Edit: Let me add, the greater accuracy of the scoped rifle shooting a fast bullet over long distance makes for a POTENTIALLY more humane treatment of the animal. Trouble is, how many try for too long of a shot and negate this potential?

Don