Suffering from tack-driver envy?

[Canuck Bob]

In all my years I've never had one of those 1/2 MOA rifles everybody else owns these days. Here's my definition of a tack driver. Puts every bullet were it is aimed regardless of first shot or tenth, cold or hot barrel, cold or hot day. 2" 100 pace 10 shot groups every time with a low power scope or target grade peep and woods loafing capable.

Even though a bit hard hitting a lefty Ruger Gunsite appeals to me, a target grade service rifle in the style of my much admired Jungle Carbine. The Canadian version is stainless and has a longer barrel because they dropped the flashider due to export restrictions. Is it possible to tune a Ruger to meet these requirements.

I also like the little CZ 527 mini lefty Mauser in 222 or 223 or even a hornet. Maybe a Douglas cut rifling sturdy tube, trigger work, and proper bedding?

Could a lever action be built to these standards. I find my hunting rifle barrels tend to wander a bit after 4 or 5 shots if not sooner. I look at my 94 and wonder if a pre-safety button AE with a bull barrel would work? A tuned up 99 in 300 Savage? The two piece stocks and triggers might be a serious problem.

Maybe an 85 clone, it has an external hammer and lever as proper rifles should have. Miroku and Uberti make some nice ones.

If you were building a reliable deadly consistent shooter what would it look like? It has to carry like a 94 in the bush, shoot like a golden era Rem 40X, and not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold, be as tough as a Lee Enfield, oh and be cheap.

[pokey]

would it be alright if a winning lottery ticket came with it,
and cindy crawford delivered it?

[bdhold]

here's mine. Uberti 1885, .22LR. I can consistently dial the Creedmoor sights in to hit 75-yd bullseyes - talking the dime-sized center diamond.
Not on the first shot, but I can always get there.

This day, after I had dialed it in, my daughter took a turn on it and completely shot out the center diamond on a 50-yd target.

[pdentrem]

What about a Martini model 12 In 22 KHornet in a short but stout barrel? A dear friend has one and it is a great groundhog getter. Not too heavy and accurate. Cheap? Maybe?

[AJMD429]

First off, the 'tack-driver' you describe is very likely to require meticulous handloads to get to that level of accuracy, and many less-than-tackdriver guns have become tackdrivers with that level of reloading attention.

Secondly, I very MUCH agree with your thoughts - I think after a lifetime of collecting guns, each one with some 'advantage' previous ones have lacked, we come to the point where we just want to SKIP all the bovinefeces, and get ONE gun that HITS what we aim at, EVERY time. Nothing high-tech or 40x-scoped or whatever - just your basic GOOD gun.

I think a 'levergun' should be able to fit the role, although with the 'normal' tubular magazine, there are many things that need addressed for accurizing. Of course the box-magazine, or button-magazine, types could have an advantage there.

Anyway, through nothing but random-luck, I think many of us over the years have got hold of some gun or other that manages to hit whatever you point it at, every time, with 'any old ammo on hand'. What's so often hilarious is that those guns may be old 'beaters' with lousy sights, sloppy stock-fit, and the looks of a truck-gun, while some of our 'safe-queen' fancy-sighted, glass-bedded 'target' rifles have to be pampered to get the cloverleaf groups we expect of them.

Sometimes I think that the best thing to do is buy lots of guns (really - who could object to that... ), shoot them a bunch, and just see which ones manage to REALLY shoot well, all the time. They're out there, and they're not always the ones you'd expect, nor even in the cartridges you'd expect; I once had a 16" barreled 44 Mag levergun which outshot a 24" breakopen .270 Win with a 'match' grade trigger, regardless of ammo...

[Streetstar]

If you were building a reliable deadly consistent shooter what would it look like? It has to carry like a 94 in the bush, shoot like a golden era Rem 40X, and not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold, be as tough as a Lee Enfield, oh and be cheap.

As the old speed shop owner said to the young hot rodder --

"Fast, cheap, reliable ----you can only pick 2 "

The good folks down at LaRue in TX and Noveske in Washington State hit all your parameters except the plastic mold thing, or the cheap thing .

[Canuck Bob]

would it be alright if a winning lottery ticket came with it,
and cindy crawford delivered it?

All right with me, but I'd have to check with Barb about Cindy! That might cost me half of everything!

I'm having some fun but I do wonder what it would be like to have a rifle designed for the range rather than a muskeg swamp. I really like some of the 308 Sniper rifles like the M40 or C14 Timberwolf. I could never afford the commercial versions but it would be interesting to start shooting 500 meters occesionally.

The big BPCR single shots with their Soule sights come to mind, even though they are at the opposite end of the spectrum from a sniper rifle. Historically maybe not so far apart. My flintlock is all the BP I want to shoot. However a 32-40 or 30-30 in a stylish falling block is attractive.

If shooting tiny groups cheap was my only goal I would start with a lefty Savage bolt. They are really not a bad starting point for an imitation sniper rifle.

These are the questions I'm asking and wondering if others ask the same or have answered them already? I've always suspected a forum of lever gunners are folks who stroll along a different trail. I will share a secret, when folks go on and on about their Kimbers I think nice gun but its no 444 moose rifle. My wife thinks I'm built upside down!

This all stems for a new reality for me. I'm 58 and a couple years ago as strong as a bull now health issues have eliminated hunting and much more. No sense whining about it. After a lifetime of evaluating a rifle by how it carries all day, does a days work in nasty weather, and drops a moose, times have changed. Now I wonder do I want the form follows function cleanliness of a Palma target rifle or C14? Or maybe a pretty lever that outshoots the heavy barrel bolt crowd. That would make a few folks here smile a bunch! Maybe a nice piece of wood and something unique like an 85 in a heritage cartridge that doesn't say another excellent magnum bolt with a 3-9 variable.

If you were in my boat what would you be aiming over the bow?

[AJMD429]

I gotta admit that for the moment my "if it absolutely HAS to have a hole in it, regardless of range" gun is a .375 Ruger Alaskan. NOT sub-moa, but so far it has been one of those that when you point it at something and pull the trigger, whatever was there will have a hole in it. Dunno if it is the gun, the cartridge, the scope, or just the luck of the draw, but it may join my Ruger 77/22 "All-Weather" .22 LR and my son's Marlin 1894 .44 Mag as one of those enchanted guns that just HITS what you want it to, every time.

[Streetstar]

Sadly, its going to be hard to hit the parameters you wanted , even if we throw price out the window.

The Ar's i pictured above may make you run for the porcelain throne to yack --- but that 8 lb Larue will shoot small groups so consistently its boring -- carry a lot better than a 12 lb BPCR or Palma rifle , and will never be adversely affected by weather - -- some of the bigger calibers available can satisfy hunting needs, but hi-power marksman competitors shoot tuned up AR's at 1000 yards with regularity (in 223)

The only thing it is not, is cheap -- about 1500-1600 American, plus the sights of your choice.

I love traditional firearms too , but all the drawbacks of the traditional guns are why we have guns like these now

[Canuck Bob]

Wow you guys are quick.

The auto is out for me. It requires a Restricted PAL and as a Restricted Weapon cannot be used in the field.

A Martini is a great idea! Our Army and NWMP used Martini-Henrys. I have a soft spot for the humble Hornet. A lovely tapered case, gentle shoulder, and a rim like a fine H&H case in minature.

The Uberti is also in the running. I've spotted a 30-30 version used. Bulldog you sure appear real happy with that rifle. The local rifle looks identical, it is a low wall as well.

AMJD my rifle that shot like a dream is my 444 Marlin. When it was scoped it shot pretty cloverleafs (3 shot groups), and when I drew a bead on anything it hit where I aimed. It is retired to family camp rifle in Grizzly country, a fitting role indeed. But it sure ain't no plinker! Recoil is a real issue for my shoulders.

Part of the allure is getting busy learning the highly technical aspects of being a rifleman. True target quality reloaded ammo and gunsmithing skills. I am not rich but as I'm planning only a couple more guns I can budget for a higher end rifle or to pay some custom smithing fees.

[Rusty]

Doug, do you own that rifle? My son keeps telling me I need an AR-15,

but I'm not sure. If I was going to get one I'd want an accurate one.

[awp101]

If you were building a reliable deadly consistent shooter what would it look like? It has to carry like a 94 in the bush, shoot like a golden era Rem 40X, and not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold, be as tough as a Lee Enfield, oh and be cheap.

In no real order of preference:
Swede m38 - shorter than the full length m96 (more like a short rifle in Mauser nomenclature), I have yet to meet a Swede Mauser than was not an outstanding shooter, they have real wood stocks and the 6.5x55 is a joy to shoot. Usually under $400 USD.

Swiss K31 - again, more of a short rifle than a carbine, available with walnut or beech stocks. The Swiss were even more crazy about accuracy than the Swedes and the issued GP11 ammo was basically match grade from the factory. The 7.5x55 is in the .308 class IIRC. Can be found for under $300 USD with careful shopping but usually in the $350 range for shooter grade rifles.

A Martini Cadet (or other small frame) would make a fine single shot that you could dial in to your specs but would blow the cheap part of the equation.

As the old speed shop owner said to the young hot rodder --

"Fast, cheap, reliable ----you can only pick 2 "

Speed costs money. How fast do you want to go?

[1894c]

i'm a levergun minute-of-soda can at 100 yards kindof guy...sometimes clay pigieons... :)

[Streetstar]

Wow you guys are quick.

The auto is out for me. It requires a Restricted PAL and as a Restricted Weapon cannot be used in the field.

.

Oh -- thats a bummer -- that means something like an accurized M-14 clone (M1A ) is out too, huh? --- i really posted those pics as kind of a "teaser" -- as the modern rifles (is the AR really modern anymore if it is 50 years old) do most of what you said -- but the flip side is they are homely to look at and in most people's mind will never take the place of blued steel and walnut
--- i was genuinely thinking a short barreled M1A would come close for ya though

Doug, do you own that rifle? My son keeps telling me I need an AR-15,

but I'm not sure. If I was going to get one I'd want an accurate one.

No - those are Larue publicity shots -- the photography is much too good for me -- I am currently building one using Noveske matched upper and lower receivers and a Noveske brand barrel -- it will be my first hybrid AR - hybrid to me meaning something that is 7/10th's as accurate as a dedicated varmint rifle, yet still light enough to qualify as a "patrol rifle" ---- stock service grade AR triggers are , well - service grade -- so i am building it with a nice trigger and some other decent touches while trying to stay under the dollar amount either LArue or Noveske charges OTD --- i think i'll beat it by a good bit, but i had some parts in inventory to help , like furniture and other cosmetic things
The AR is a reasonably accurate platform to start out with, i have an old A1 style rifle with a surplus M-16 upper receiver and barrel that shoots 2 MOA with pretty cheap ammo -- my lightweight DPMS "walking varminter" was a $650 rifle to start with and easilly shoots in the 1 MOA range with the right loads
--- the world famous Sixgun has (or had) a Colt 6940 that i remember him saying was accurate enough to be boring --- so much so that he got bored with it and went back to pre-war leverguns

[3leggedturtle]

For tack driving accuracy; the rifle is basically locked into a vise and all you do is pull the trigger. I like shooting off a rolled up blanket so I know what i can do. Any rifle can shoot more accurately than me. But on the other hand, it is fun to watch the benchrest guys go thru there paces. But it seems so "impersonal" and unemotional contact with the rifle.

[AJMD429]

AMJD my rifle that shot like a dream is my 444 Marlin. When it was scoped it shot pretty cloverleafs (3 shot groups), and when I drew a bead on anything it hit where I aimed. It is retired to family camp rifle in Grizzly country, a fitting role indeed. But it sure ain't no plinker! Recoil is a real issue for my shoulders.

Consider some reduced loads with Trail Boss or 5744...? Just remember reduced velocity means reduced RPM, so you need (maybe) a shorter bullet to prevent long-range keyholing.

[bdhold]

Bob, the set trigger was not available when I bought mine - the rifle was actually my condolence when I had to send back that EX-condition Stevens I showed on the other thread that was .25RF instead of the .22LR purported.
Funny thing, I saved $300 by buying the Cimmarron Uberti from Buffalo Arms, and Cimmarron is only 70 miles from my house. I called them, I called their allied Fredericksburg retailer. There was one .22 in the US and this was it. I explained that I could save $300 by having the rifle shipped to Montana, but neither would talk anything short of retail. (I'm buying this rifle one way or the other, and you can make some of the margin or none of the margin.) So the rifle made the 70-mile trip with a 3000 mile detour.

The trigger. It's crisp, and seemed heavy and snappy at first, but now doesn't seem heavy at all (and is not heavy) I have but a handful of arms, and all of them have excellent triggers, and this one was just a little snappier than I was used to. I think it softened up with use - maybe it had a burr. But if I had the option for a set trigger, I would have definitely taken that.



The Uberti online factory store had the sight set, both the tang vernier and the windage globe for $150, and they're very nice. I added a Lee Shaver Hadley cup and love the variable apertures for matching sight image with available light. I replaced the rear buckhorn with a folding Marble's, which my dad prefers to shoot over the tang sight.
These are my first 50-yd 5-shot groups (and this is when I was still squeamish on the trigger)


MVA made me a spirit level clip - they're awesome on custom work - it was the same price as anybody's spirit level, and I love their sight insert card.

It has a 34-inch sight radius.
I'm out to 75 yards with it, and it's shooting like this with .22LR. I'm kind of at the limit of my eyes for paper, but younger eyes and hotter rounds could no doubt drive tacks at 100 yds. And I'm sure I could dial it into silhouettes past 100 yds.

[Walker]

Cindy would have a detrimental affect on my group size!

Only rifle I have that will plug a dime for 10 shots would be an old Winchester model 54 in 257 roberts with a 20 inch medium heavy barrel. At 100 yards my 86 lightweight 33wcf is ok, but no tack driver.

[Streetstar]

Cindy would have a detrimental affect on my group size!

Only rifle I have that will plug a dime for 10 shots would be an old Winchester model 54 in 257 roberts with a 20 inch medium heavy barrel. At 100 yards my 86 lightweight 33wcf is ok, but no tack driver.

oh man -- that rifle is pretty !

[Mescalero]

awp101 is right,
Mine is a swede m96 with a model 38 barrel, plastic stock, scout scope.
Travels well, hits well, carries well ( at the action ) good for anything in my part of the country.
Nothing is perfect, get to the point where it does all things well.

[Griff]

If you were building a reliable deadly consistent shooter what would it look like? It has to carry like a 94 in the bush, shoot like a golden era Rem 40X, and not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold, be as tough as a Lee Enfield, oh and be cheap.

As the old speed shop owner said to the young hot rodder --
"Fast, cheap, good looking, reliable ----you can only pick 2."

You forgot one!

First off, the 'tack-driver' you describe is very likely to require meticulous handloads to get to that level of accuracy, and many less-than-tackdriver guns have become tackdrivers with that level of reloading attention.

+1

I have 3 guns that fit the tack-driver description... but when you add the "woods-carry" it drops off 1, 2 or all 3 depending on your definition of "woods-carry."
2 are only capable of that accuracy with one load, and as the good doctor prescribes, that ammo HAS to be loaded with "bench rest anal- retentiveness." The 3rd is a factory custom built, mission specific gun, capable of FAR better accuracy with even factory ammo than either other gun.

But, for true woods-carry and minute of deer accuracy... the following is just as good as any other:

It's had both jacketed factory ammo along with both jacketed & cast handloads that are "supposedly" 2200+fps (2500fps in the case of the 125 Sierra HPs), and delivers "minute" of deer in off-hand shooting out to about 200 yards. Beyond that, hitting the 9" gong becomes "iffy"! So, how does it stack up?

It has to carry like a 94 in the bush;

Check that one off! Just like one, believe or not!

Shoot like a golden era Rem 40X;

Yep, another check mark! Well... ok, you have to make certain allowances for not having a bull barrel, scope/target grade sights, etc.!

Not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold;

Yep, check that requirement also! Nary a plastic part...

Be as tough as a Lee Enfield;

big ol' heavy red check mark here! Maybe even tougher!

Oh and be cheap;

Yep, another check! $450. And, unlike a lot other "wannabe"s, eats off-the-shelf ammo like it was peanut butter and jelly sandwiches!!!

What MORE do you want?

[Ben_Rumson]

No Brainer...OK.. You don’t object to the “Duce” and the 223....Maybe bump those up a notch and go with a 25...You mentioned the 85 and BPCRs... Most of those are two piece stock designs... So the two piece stock doesn’t seem to be as worrisome to you as you first stated, we know they’ll shoot accurate... You’re a lefty... Get yourself one of the tang safety Savage 99s....in 250 Savage (Carries nearly like a 94) and tune it up like you mentioned in your first post....Maybe a fatter/stubby carbine length barrel... optimized chamber & twist.... The 99 scopes easily, as well as takes receiver sights...The classic tapered 250 Savage is well known for it’s accuracy and ease of finding accurate hand loads... 25s are easy on the shoulder too ... Them’s my thoughts... or 243 or 308.... Good luck...
Edit...Forgot to mention.. Get Mic McPherson’s book “Accurizing The Factory Rifle” on tuning bolt action & lever action rifles... Great info in there on 99s... DIY info too..

[pdentrem]

I currently have a 6mm PPC gun, it will shoot 3/8" groups all day. Fun to shoot? Yes at times but the ammo build time can get in the way.

I also have a Ruger No1B in .22 Hornet, with simple loads that require a lot less work, I can shoot all day, get 1" groups most of the time and love it. It is a bit heavy and expensive to buy, half the weight of the 6mm but not a true field gun unless price is no problem.

The Savage 99 in 250-3000 is a family piece. I shoot it, it is accurate as they say but finding one that is not at the two extremes, minty or piece of .... Fill in the blank is difficult in my area. Lots of .300 Savages, .308s.

My buddies Martini was less than 1k all in. Rifle cost about 500 and the new barrel about the same. He would outshoot me most days of the week. With just a 20" barrel it's an easy carry.

Usually I see one or two Martinis at the local shows. Original ones are too pricy for most but the sportized ones are far cheaper.

Black guns are not my cup of tea. Give me a blued steel, wood stock gun.

The mini Mausers do appeal to me but the safe is full!

[BigSky56]

Iam with Ben get a 99 in 250 sav put a 1-10 twist bbl on it tune up the trigger and bed the front end hunt it if you want more punch use the 300. A friend got his moose this year with his 99 in 250 sav. danny

[Mescalero]

It is popular for New York musicians, when asked by tourists; " how do I get to Carnige Hall"?
to reply ( practice )
Find one that fits all the criterion, than practice with it untill competent.

[Canuck Bob]

Well it seems that one option is a homespun shooter based on a Savage. The following link discusses cheap building.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/article ... ge-rig.php

[piller]

PillHer has a Remington 700 SPS which I worked on the trigger (I know it voided the warranty) and it is better than I can shoot. Sighthunter can put ragget 1 hole groups into a 100 yard target with it all day long. What I grab when I need to hit what I am aiming at is my .480 Rossi and it has never missed for me. I cannot light matches with it, but it will hit in the kill zone anytime I pull the trigger. I limit myself to about 100 yards with it, but at that range I would not be afraid to use it on anything except hippo or elephant. Do I need a tack driver, not really since I rarely shoot at tacks? They are too difficult to skin and quarter out. Not much meat on them either.

[wilko]

Get a K31 and some gp11 ammo.... it will do moa or close to it AND do it in style

[AJMD429]

I currently have a 6mm PPC gun, it will shoot 3/8" groups all day. Fun to shoot? Yes at times but the ammo build time can get in the way.

I have a 35 year old Ruger M77V ("but Rugers aren't accurate" ) in 6mm Rem that cloverleafs on good days and stays under 1/2" on bad days, and the only way I have to reload ammo for it is using a similar-age Lee 'Target Loader' kit - the kind you need a wooden mallet for. Ammo loading is actually not that time-consuming, though, since there's no press to set up or anything. I did weigh charges for it most of the time, vs. using the 'dipper', though I'm not sure it made any difference in accuracy. I keep thinking I need to glass-bed that gun, but then sensibility strikes, and reminds me - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Les Staley]

A few years back I drank the DRC Koolaid and decided I wanted to have one of my Marlin 1894 44 mag carbines in a faster barrel 1 - 20 twist. Talked to David Clay and when I got the price I changed course.. ordered a Shilen barrel from Shilen, and it is now in my to- do projects post retirement. Hope I live long enough to get-er-done.....of course, I'll need to buy a little bigger lathe...

[pdentrem]

I currently have a 6mm PPC gun, it will shoot 3/8" groups all day. Fun to shoot? Yes at times but the ammo build time can get in the way.

I have a 35 year old Ruger M77V ("but Rugers aren't accurate" ) in 6mm Rem that cloverleafs on good days and stays under 1/2" on bad days, and the only way I have to reload ammo for it is using a similar-age Lee 'Target Loader' kit - the kind you need a wooden mallet for. Ammo loading is actually not that time-consuming, though, since there's no press to set up or anything. I did weigh charges for it most of the time, vs. using the 'dipper', though I'm not sure it made any difference in accuracy. I keep thinking I need to glass-bed that gun, but then sensibility strikes, and reminds me - if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Even using the Dillon 550B, it takes time to do a couple hundred or more reloads. I used to use a single stage and do a reloading party. 3 guys, 3 movies and 3 dogs. One deprimes, one resizes, the last maintains the flow of components, the deprime guy becomes the primer, I wonder shift to powder, and the last guy would finish the reload and package. After 6 hrs or 3 movies, we would have a few hundred rounds. Naturally the next day we were emptying them down range, etc.
A good time was had by all and the dogs were ready to go, like always!

[L_Kilkenny]

If you were building a reliable deadly consistent shooter what would it look like? It has to carry like a 94 in the bush, shoot like a golden era Rem 40X, and not look like it was out of a plastic injection mold, be as tough as a Lee Enfield, oh and be cheap.

About a year ago the "one gun" syndrome bit me. For centerfire rifles I'm basically a fox and coyote guy with a smattering of deer thrown in so I sold stuff and built the "one":


Savage 110 that started life as a .22-250 blued package gun, 18.5" .243 9.25/1 twist McGowan barrel, Boyd's stock, adjusted the trigger, some misc Midway parts and there she sits. This gun has never seen a smith. She now wears a pretty basic Redfield Revolution 3-9x and meets all your requirements. It's light, fast, more accurate than me, darn near unbreakable and carries well. This is my first thumbhole stock and while not 100% sold on them it does hold to the shoulder very well. Total cost to redo my old truck gun was around 5 bills including scope, tools and go/no-go gauges.

LK

[Streetstar]

I currently have a 6mm PPC gun, it will shoot 3/8" groups all day. Fun to shoot? Yes at times but the ammo build time can get in the way.

!

I'm just guessing that being a 6-PPC, its pretty much a dedicated BR gun? -- your right -- feeding such a beast can be a PIA unless you are in the "small group zone"
If you are so obsessed , you can spend hours taking the micrometer to cases, bullets, cleaning primer pockets, hand measuring every single powder charge, trimming cases , even weighing cases, and all the other things that go into making consistent BR ammo

------ I tried it for a while --- had a single shot Sako action with a HArt 6PPC barrel wrapped up in a beautiful stock with a paintjob that would make a hot rodder proud . I loved it and had an underground 100 yard rifle range in Wichita (Bullseye Range, for KS people) to work it out ---- after about a year of BR shooting, i soured on the "work" part of it, -- now i like cartridges i can neck size and trim only when necessary and still get .75 - 1.0" groups (best with the dedicated BR setup was far better than that -- groups so small , many would think i was lying, but it wouldnt even get me in the top 5 at a BR meet )

--- now i get tickled when i can dust off a 2.5" group with my 30/30 -- seriously . Its about what you can do with the rifle you have on hand.

[Canuck Bob]

One thing that my research is digging up is the inherent accuracy of the 17HRM. I've always been prejudiced against nice rimfire guns, always saw them as tractor guns. The 17 ammo is a little pricey but it sure has some appeal due to the ease of stocking up in bulk and just shooting. I find 22LR are ok but the real accurate ammo ain't real cheap. But my idea of 22 shooting is a peep sighted 30 year old 10-22 and running shots on badland gophers. I have a nice 32-20 which I consider my souped up 22 Magnum already.

I'm looking into the capabilities of some of the cheaper guns like a Savage 93R17 GL. Even a nice CZ is cheap enough.

I wonder what you guys think of these sub 22 caliber cartridges in centerfire and rimfire?

[L_Kilkenny]

I try to love the magnum rimfires I just can't do it. I reload to shoot more and don't have much love for it so I'm always on the prod in search of a better solution. Keep coming back to the magnum rimfires not being it. I've basically resigned myself to the .22 hornet if I get another gun. You can get affordable ammo for $22/50 which is more than any rimfire but then the hornet smokes the magnum rimfires too. Ammo can also run up to $1 a shot stuff but it can also be reloaded when money is tight. In actuality I'd prefer the new .17 hornet or a .17 fireball but their lack of anything close to affordable ammo drive me away. I don't want another gun I have to reload for to enjoy.

LK

[Canuck Bob]

The last couple posts came in while I was writing.

LK, I am now convinced from studying the Savage series of lefty barrel nut rifles that they are perfect for me if I go that route. The options for a lefty are a little limiting but now that hunting ain't an issue a right hand bolt isn't a big issue either. In fact for a tack driver shot off a rest or bipod prone the offside bolt is maybe a pro.

My range will be cut lines on Crown Forest Land most of the time. A ground pad, some 6" gong plates, and a bipod equiped prone target gun simplifies all the junk I've got to carry and clean up. Except for an occasional proper camp fire I leave nothing but footprints.

It is hard to break the mind set for me that all guns are to be evaluated by thier hunting or military capability. It is liberating to let that go and be a bit more imaginative.

Edit: LK your feelings are similar to mine. I try to warm up to the rimfires but it just falls short of lighting a fire. Ammo here is very pricey and reloading is required to shoot a lot (on second thought the 223 is doable even here commercially). It would be hard to find something cheaper than the Hornet to reload though. I'm considering the new model Savage 25 once they are out and a few guys try them who aren't on the gun rag crews. Heck, I wonder about a Handi in 22 Hornet sometimes.

[Jeff H]

.......I also like the little CZ 527 mini lefty Mauser in 222 or 223 or even a hornet. Maybe a Douglas cut rifling sturdy tube, trigger work, and proper bedding?.........

Take a look at the 527 Carbine in 7.62x39. Not a lever, but the diminutive Mauser action makes it one handy little rifle. Paco wrote this carbine up (Unintended Consequences). As always - excellent reading.

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/762x39.htm

If you are thinking about a re-barrel (not necessary from what I have seen so far) may as well pick your caliber. Take a look at the .358 Gremlin - a 7.62x39 case necked up to .358" and close to the .35 Remington in ballistics. I have found no reports on cast bullets for this wildcat, but it certainly ought to do well. I wold LOVE to see Paco write this combination up. Could also do a 6.5 Grendel or a .257x39........

.358 Gremlin info:
http://www.bfgcartridges.com/358Gremlin.html

Not a .35 Gremlin, but you will get the idea:
http://www.cz527.com/527-variants-and-wildcats/9-5x39/

Based on the 527 Varmint I picked up a few months ago I have to say it has the nicest factory barrel I have ever had and the single set trigger needs no tuning. It is only the second factory rifle I have ever bought that didn't need work right out of the box, so I am thinking about the carbine now too.

Mauser rifles have been my bag for as long as I have been shooting, and as Mausers go, the CZ 527 is an exquisite bolt-gun. If I didn't already have a custom '98 in 6.5x55 that shoots ridiculously better than I need, I would be looking at a 550 to fill that role. I built that custom on a shoestring budget and it's a no-frills tool but it still cost me a shade more than the new in the box 527.

[Rifleman]

Could a lever action be built to these standards. I find my hunting rifle barrels tend to wander a bit after 4 or 5 shots if not sooner. I look at my 94 and wonder if a pre-safety button AE with a bull barrel would work?

Nothing has been done to this rifle, other than a barrel break-in procedure... and it shot well before that.
It is a Winchester 94ae Ranger 30-30, made in the mid 80s, bought new in the mid 80s.

Here is an Audette Ladder Test target, all 10 shots are within 1 5/8 inches at 100 yards all different charge weights. That right there fits the bill.

At that time I'm sure I had a Bushnell 3200 Tactical scope using the Weaver see through mount/ring combo.

Here is me figuring-out the first 575 yard shot with my Williams FP peep a few days ago.
Winchester 30-30 at 575 Yards, (off the fence.)
Granted, I didn't connect on the 4 inch target, but simply the 11x15 inch board on the second shot... and that's after misjudging the height of the POI.

Sure, I don't connect every second shot, take today for example.
30-30 Over His Head 400 Yards
But when I do miss that second shot, I miss well.

That is your 2 inches at 400 yards... and that's with the cheapest jacketed bullets on the planet.

First off, the 'tack-driver' you describe is very likely to require meticulous handloads to get to that level of accuracy, and many less-than-tackdriver guns have become tackdrivers with that level of reloading attention.

The Win 94 is my worst shooting rifle; I can find a sub-moa load using the ladder test within 10 shots almost every time.

Look at this rifle barrel,

It used to be a lot worse;

Now look at the ladder test, then the 3 shot group after.



That is a stock rifle made in 1918 using the stock peep sight. I've never shot above MOA groups with that rifle in at least 2 years.

I don't understand why so many people think this is so hard?

[Nicknack]

I'm lucky my 1892 32-20 still has a very good bore only lightly pitted just 1/8 into the crown I was going to counter bore it up to the good rifling but thought to try her out first, I think by the results I will leave it alone.
The barrel is an original -STAINLESS STEEL- Winchester postal replacement barrel (stamped with a P inside an oval and the same size as the Winchester proof stamp) apparently very rare and they were only offered for a few years. They were expensive and hard to machine for Winchester, because they couldn’t be blued, Winchester could only give them a painted "japanned" finish which was not too durable and the finish was soon worn away. My 92 in the picture has a dinged up stock all the bluing worn off to a grey patina from a life of use but not abuse, but I like her just the way she is, warts and all.
The 32 WCF is not much of a high powered killer but its fun and cheep to shoot.
The 32 WCF loves lead and my pet load is 110 grain FP lead bullets with 4.5grains of Australian ADI AP70,to you US shooters, the exact same powder is Hodgens Universal, as Australian Defense Industries export it to the Hodgen company. regards Dallas

1892 1892 32-20 Target.JPG

Model 92 32-20 1926 001.JPG

1892 1892 32-20 Target.JPG

[madman4570]

Bob,
Don't know if they are still building them like they did in 1990 but the Colt Match Target HBAR's (#6601) at least the two I have will do this with extremely careful produced hand loads. My "typical" grouping from sandbags/concrete bench is .80" for 5 shots.
From a Ranson Rest groups size usually drops to average grouping of .40" or less
Talking open sights.
Only modification to gun is I use a rear insert disc with an dia. aperture of .052
I have no doubt my groups(from sandbag)would be even smaller if I went with a front sight post dia. of .050

Actually they both beat what my NM M1A1 groups or my S.A. M1 Garand

For those that want to try a quick and dirty way with the rear sight is to purchase some assorted sized small brady dots from dollar store for $1
Insert one in your rear sight,lighty hit it with a quick very fine spray of sight black and then as best you can pierce the very center with a 1/10 sewing needle lighting working it with your thumb/index finger to make the chaffed edges disappear for the time being.
Even if by doing this your center is not perfect you will sight it the same(each time)thus your groups will group accordingly.
Then adjustments can be made back to center bull.
I did this for a couple shooting buddies one day before a match and they upped their scores by 75/85 on their second match
And yes needles and brady dots are in my supply boxes top shelf.(never know)

[Streetstar]

Bob,
Don't know if they are still building them like they did in 1990 but the Colt Match Target HBAR's (#6601) at least the two I have will do this with extremely careful produced hand loads. My "typical" grouping from sandbags/concrete bench is .80" for 5 shots.
From a Ranson Rest groups size usually drops to average grouping of .40" or less
)

OK -- now i know what i want to try to do with the spare A2 upper receiver that is in my parts box begging to be used for something !

---- sadly, Bob is Canadian , so the semi-autos are a slight prob as he alluded to earlier -----

Because you know, there are so so many people holding up Canadian package stores with multiple thousand dollar HBars and M1A1 variants that they need to be regulated (we need to watch it here, too, obviously)

[Canuck Bob]

Fellows this has been a great thread, thanks. I have to let you in on a development. I have decided that I am going to buy a tablesaw with my rifle money. I've been under the weather for a couple of years. When I took out my calculator and started budgeting for a new rifle reality seeped in slowly.

The Honey-Do list is two years old, my house needs serious attention. I am excited about shooting my current guns regularly and working on this plan for awhile. Hopefuly the old saying about anticipation is actually true!

Edit: One of my deepest resentments is that I swore to protect my country with my life in the military. Now they would brand me a criminal for carrying my old service rifle on a moose hunt. A FN-FAL semi-auto only! AR types are very hard to own and use.

[awp101]

Edit: One of my deepest resentments is that I swore to protect my country with my life in the military. Now they would brand me a criminal for carrying my old service rifle on a moose hunt. A FN-FAL semi-auto only! AR types are very hard to own and use.

I hear you. I have a friend in Finland who has been a reservist in one of the Sissi Battalions for years. Based on the last time we talked, it appears the winds of change are blowing ill in Finland regarding firearms ownership. He told me that if what was being proposed passed, he was going to put in his retirement papers as he didn't feel he would be defending the country he once knew.

I still remember the time I was shooting my SAR2 (AK 74 clone) and kit built FAL at the private weapons range at Ft Campbell while some Brits on TDY (or whatever the Brits call it) were doing a qualification on the next range. They wandered over after they were through to see what I was shooting and were amazed I could own either one at all even though they were semi only. I offered them the chance to put a mag through the 74 and a few did and I caught the SGT eyeballing the FAL. I'm sure he was thinking of the SLR he'd carried years before. If it had been functioning properly, I'd have let him run a mag through it for old times sake...