I lied to you guys! 22 Hornet is the outcome.

[Canuck Bob]

I recently started a thread on getting a tack driver. I told you guys i needed to cool down due to costs.

Well I lied. I'm picking up a Handi-Rifle in 22 Hornet. I made the mistake of taking my buddy to a local gunshop to assist him, you know the rest! These little Hornets are not too easy to get here and one was in stock at another store, overtime here I come.

I did some soul searching and decided an expensive gun was out of the question. I've lurked on a Handi dedicated forum for years studying the Hornet version. I now have joined a world I thought I never would, plastic stocks! Marlin makes the barrels with a 1-9 twist. The Handi is a gun tinkerers dream, maybe a requirement, and it breaks down fairly easily which allows me to carry the rifle in my luggage on sales trips. I'll shoot it a bit before deciding if I'll scope it. Researching peep sights already, I'm still not convinced those dainty glass contraptions are going to catch on.

Any war stories you want to share on hornets or Handis?

[Bill in Oregon]

Bob, best of luck with the Handi, I have had a few, although never in anything smaller in centerfire than .38-55. They can be very accurate and certainly worth scoping. After all, the Hornet is made for tiny critters waay out yonder ...

[Nath]

Brilliant, fantastic round the Hornet. 1-9twist! Thats fast for hornet. Should stablize 60grn sub sonic loads a treat! Hmmmm interesting

Nath.

[gamekeeper]

The Hornet is a great little cartridge and I've been thinking of getting a Handi Rifle in .22 Hornet being as Jr has my CZ.
Please let us know how it works out (without the carring handle).

[Rusty]

I think H&R still sells the WGRS on their website for them. Used wood stocks are easy to find too.

Happy trails.

[AJMD429]

Some say the K-Hornet is 'better', but what's to improve on...?

Handi-rifles are the most practical hunter's guns there are - strong, accurate, and basic; just not as pretty as Ruger No.1's...

[Mescalero]

My H&R has been punched out to k-hornet
the brass behaves better.

[Nath]

The Hornet is a great little cartridge and I've been thinking of getting a Handi Rifle in .22 Hornet being as Jr has my CZ.
Please let us know how it works out (without the carring handle).

Can we get them over here now John?

N.

[ollogger]

have a ultra with 2 barrles, 223 & 243 both are scoped & shoot as well
as i can, mostly fire the 223 at PD & use 243 for yotes

ollogger

[gamekeeper]

The Hornet is a great little cartridge and I've been thinking of getting a Handi Rifle in .22 Hornet being as Jr has my CZ.
Please let us know how it works out (without the carring handle).

Can we get them over here now John?

N.

Nath, Edgar Bros. are the agents for H&R & NEF.

[earlmck]

Some say the K-Hornet is 'better', but what's to improve on...?

I have both and while the K-Hornet may get you another 50 to 100fps with jacketed bullets, the nice long neck on the regular hornet is much nicer for cast bullets. And the Hornet is a wonderful cast bullet gun, though I am curious if that will be as true with a 1 in 9 twist. My Hornet is 1 in 16 and shoots a cast flat-nose 60 grain bullet very nicely. (I have mostly used 10.3 grains of H4227 for about 2350 fps.)

[crs]

The hornet is my favorite cartridge for turkey and it will kill coyotes and smaller pests.

[samb]

Congrats Bob! I have allways wanted to pick up a rifle in 22 Hornet. I just love the cartridge.
Sam

[BAGTIC]

I have both standard and improved versions. The difference in neck length [.023"] is so minor I don't see it causing any problem with cast bullets.

I actually prefer the plastic stocks on a few of my H&R because they are better shaped and fit my hands better.

[1894c]

my Mon always said--tell the truth and shame the Devil...by the way i like your choice of caliber and rifle... :)

[damienph]

The Handi's can be very accurate shooters. My Hornet is an old H&R 157 with the full Manlicher style forearm with a steel tube K2.5 Weaver. Not a tack driver but much more than just a plinker. I know its limitations and use it for a 100 yard and under squirrel rifle.

[earlmck]

The difference in neck length [.023"] is so minor I don't see it causing any problem with cast bullets.

That sent me out to the loading bench to have a second look at my cartridges. We must have different versions of the KHornet, BAGTIC. My KHornet has a 0.250 neck and the Hornet has a 0.385 neck for a difference of 0.135. Looks like this:

HornetnKHornet.jpg

My Hornet shoots the cast bullets so well I never use anything else. My KHornet shoots the cast bullets so poorly (at anything approaching 2000 fps.) that I only use jacketed bullets in it. I've always blamed the short neck because the base of the cast bullet projects a ways down into the powder space. But these are such very different rifles that maybe other KHornets would have very different success with cast. These are the only 2 Hornets I've ever worked with, so I'm not talking from deep experience. I have experienced with other cartridges that anytime the base of the cast bullet projects well down into the powder space I have difficulty getting a good-shooting cast load.

[Canuck Bob]

I just confirmed the purchase and am awaiting delivery.

Earlmck, I read somewhere that the K Hornet can have the short neck or the same neck as originally designed. A guy mentioned somewhere that RCBS wouldn't send him a die set until it was confirmed. Of course from the net and unconfirmed as fact.

I am planning lead bullets as well. I just priced reloading supplies! The cheapest 22 bullet is .18 per bullet for Hornady SX! A guy can easily pay .30 a bullet and more for fancy bullets. Then I priced factory ammo, more than a buck a shot. I figure with the 1-9 twist, long neck, and no OAL magazine restrictions this should be a good cast shooter. The plan is hard bullets and slowish powders because of the fast twist and 2000 fps. max. In time a subsonic load as well.

[Bob A]

My H&R has been punched out to k-hornet
the brass behaves better.

I bought a Handi Rifle in 22 hornet about 3-4 years ago. I had done a lot of reading before the purchase and was planning to ream it to a K-Hornet.
BUT, it shoots soooo good, I hate to mess with it. So, I never did.
I use 40 gr VMax with Lil'gun. It is my go to gun for squirells and coyotes on the ranch.
It is a little boring at the range, so it rarely make the trip. I settled on a load and it just keeps on working.
The K-hornet would probably help with case stretching but I am getting great accuracy and 6 to 9 reloads per case.

Bob a

[pdentrem]

Canuck Bob
There are many versions of the " improved" Hornet. There was an article in Shooting Times list a few versions. I found these in the Cartridge Conversions book. In reality there is not much different between any of them. The original Kilbourn has a .278" neck.

Harvey Kay-Chuk
ICL Gopher
K-Hornet long and short neck

[earlmck]

Earlmck, I read somewhere that the K Hornet can have the short neck or the same neck as originally designed

The things you learn on this forum! I had never even thought of there being significantly different versions of the KHornet until BAGTIC's comment (when I bought my KHornet it was a used gun and came with lots of brass and RCBS dies). and now pdentrem confirms it. Anyway to me the gain is so small I wouldn't bother with the conversion, and if I did I'd go for a longer neck version. With Lil'Gun and H110 powders available now we can get considerable more velocity from a regular Hornet than Mr. Kilbourne could with the "K" back in the day (staying to conventional Hornet pressures, anyway). I imagine he only had 4227 and 2400 in those days. And maybe 4198 for a lower pressure cast bullet load.

You may do real well with the cast bullets. My Hornet is the only rifle I shoot cast successfully at much over 2000 fps. It does fine at 2350 fps (which is a max load in my rifle) and I am tempted to play with Lil'Gun to see if it doesn't like going even faster. However at 2350 a ground squirrel or rabbit is DRT and you really want to make a head shot if eating is on the agenda...

[pdentrem]

I found more improved Hornets!

I found this on shooting.com.au

Ha 17Ackley,Read your post several days ago and have been trying to remember were to find this information. So here we go. The 22 Ackley did exist. In P.O.Ackley's book HANDBOOK FOR SHOOTERS AND RELOADERS VOL 1 originally printed in 1962( my copy is the 13th printing in 1980) he lists a cartridge the .22ICL Gopher and goes on to say that the cartrige diamentions closely resemble the Ackley line of improved cartridges with the same body taper and shoulder position but the ICL has a 45 degree shoulder were the Ackleys have either 28 or 40 degree. The K hornet was originated by Lysle Kilbourn ,it was one of the first blown out hornet cases and is by far the most popular version. It has the shoulder pushed further forward then the Ackley version and is said to headspaces off the shoulder and not the rim as the original hornet did and is said to be more accurate. A visit to www.stevespages.com/page8.htm will show diamentional drawings of some of the improved hornet cases. Be aware there is also a KE Hornet version that was attributed to Ken Howell from Kimber rifles and was used in Savage and Ruger rifles a while back and is similar to the K Hornet but with the shoulder pushed even further forward.

[earlmck]

This has been an informative thread and has got me to thinking about some cartridges I haven't experimented with in many years. Thanks for starting this discussion, Bob.

I've been playing around a bit more with these two cartridges and the QuickLoad program. First thing is to measure water capacity of the cases. My KHornets are all W-W brass, weigh 55.4 grains and hold 15.8 grains of water. My regular Hornets are all R-P brass, weigh 48.9 grains and hold 14.7 grains of water. I started out with all Winchester brass at one time. Somewhere along the way I got a "buy" in the Remington brass; got a box of 500 cases, and at that time converted all the W-W stuff to KHornet. I have no track of the number of loads per case; less than 10 I'd guess. I've never lost a case to splitting, and I've seldom lost one in the loading process even though this has been a round I've taught grandkids to load on. So it can't be too terribly thin-skinned. Cases are chamferred and I use a Lyman "M" die when loading cast.

Interesting that the W-W brass is more than 10% heavier than the R-P. And I still have 1.1 grains more water capacity with the KHornet even with the heavier brass. With these parameters plugged in QuickLoad tells me I should be able to get 2868 fps with a top load of Lil'Gun and the 45 grain Speer in the KHornet while the Hornet should give 2816 with the same components, pressure and 26" barrel length which is the length of my Hornet barrel (and using 42,000 psi as max pressure). The only Chronographed load I have recorded is in the Hornet with H4227 and the Lyman cast bullet at 57 grains and agrees within 6 fps of the calculation from QuickLoad! I didn't record deviation at the time but I'll bet it was quite a lot more than any 6 fps. So QuickLoad looks very closely predictive with my Hornet and 4227, anyway. My little KHornet is a LowWall with 19" barrel and I've never chronographed a load from it. That may change, as I am running out of the H4227 and have a jug of Lil'Gun to start loading it with.

And by the way, QuickLoad does show I should be able to get another 100 fps using Lil'Gun in the Hornet with the cast bullet vs. my present H4227 load. So I'll have to do some playing with that one also.

Also in line with the question about 2400 in the Hornet -- it does look pretty good in QuickLoad. In the regular Hornet the 2400 beats the top 4227 load by a few fps while in the KHornet it is the reverse (for the 45 grain Speer bullet). I shot 2400 in the Hornet many years ago; never chronographed it but did get decent accuracy. I just ran out of it and had a bunch of H4227 which has lasted until this year.

Sorry for just rambling. But that's what us old fanny burbs do, you know!

[gamekeeper]

I contacted the UK importer of H&R/NEF he said there was no demand for them in the UK but he could order me one as a special order.. I only have to wait three months for my Firearm Certificate to be renewed and hopefully I can get one to replace my CZ.

GK Jr. got my CZ and loves it.

[Canuck Bob]

GK, that is a stunning photo! The CZ doesn't come in the hornet and hits about $1K here after taxes. Your son's, I assume he has laid solid claim to it, CZ is a dandy with that full stock. I was real tickled to see it iron sighted.

I considered the Browning Micro A Bolt in a lefty Hornet but finances dictated a Handi. I'm still waiting but they said 2-3 weeks so I get to practice some patience, never my strong suit!

[.Dirty-.Thirty]

Howdy Bob, posted in your other thread as well, hope you'll update us on how you do with your rifle. I reload for several cartridges and rifles but never got excited about it til I started with the Hornet, something special about this little .22 looking forward to reading your success with it! .DT

[gamekeeper]

GK, that is a stunning photo! The CZ doesn't come in the hornet and hits about $1K here after taxes. Your son's, I assume he has laid solid claim to it, CZ is a dandy with that full stock. I was real tickled to see it iron sighted.

Thanks Bob, yes it's now all his, he has since put a carrying handle on it but I forgive him..

This is it with his Parker Hale 12GA.