357mag levergun vs 300 BLK AR15

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:38 am

I frequent ARFCOM and have noticed that the 300 BLK (.308 bullet on a .223 case) are all the rage now for both suppressed, sub-sonic and ARs with 110grn bullets and hog hunting with 150grn - 200grn bullets. I looked up the maximum muzzle velocities for the hog hunting 147-150grn load and it is right at or under those produced with normal, commercial 158grn 357mag ammo in a 20" levergun. In fact, Buffalo Bore's Heavy 357mag, 158grn load has slightly more velocity than a 300 BLK's max 125grn load.

My point is I just don't get some of these new calibers people are wild about. Sure, it's a load that one can shoot from their std AR with just a barrel change but their talking about a $1500 rifle in average configuration that will weigh 10+ lbs vs a $500 Rossi 357mag levergun which weighs 5.5 lbs. So this is a caliber that shoots a smaller diameter (.308 vs 357), lighter weight (147grn vs 158grn) that's main attribute is that it can be shot out of a rifle that costs three times as much and weighs twice as much as a levergun.

What am I missing? When woods walking for hogs, it seems to me that the levergun is a better choice. What am I missing?

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:06 am

Marketing hype?

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:32 am

Question is not what are you missing but what are they missing.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:43 am

Two other marketing solutions, to problems that did not exist, come to mind.....45GAP and 17m2

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:52 am

I don't know... I like the idea of these new AR calibers. As much as I like the leveraction platform (I have eight), I really like the AR too (in process of building #3). My nephew just had a new one built in 6mm Rat. It is a necked down 6.5 Grendel with the shoulder moved forward, short neck. He is still experimenting, so far he has tried 107gr Sierra Matchkings and 108gr Bergers. It is ACCURATE. Actually, most ARs that I have fired are accurate and many are extremely accurate.

I know that one or two platforms and 3 or 4 calibers could handle almost any shooting needs out there but what fun would that be?

My BIL has an Armalite AR 10 in .308 that is quite a shooter and he has plans to deer hunt with it. Will any of my leverguns, regardless of caliber, work just as well? Sure, but...

I would like to try a .30 caliber that works with the standard AR 15 size lower, I am especially interested in the .30AAC (Blackout) all it would take is a barrel change; same upper, same bolt, same magazines; won't cost $1500.

Will my Model 94 Trapper in 30-30 work just as well (maybe better)? Probably, so what?

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:11 am

Muzzle velocities are nice, but what about their downrange ballistics? I'd suspect their pointy bullets don't give up what the "blunts" in your levergun will.

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:20 am

COSteve wrote:What am I missing? When woods walking for hogs, it seems to me that the levergun is a better choice. What am I missing?

Some of it is personal preference, some is economics and some is hype.

The .300 Blackout/AAC was designed from the start to be suppressed (as was the .458 SOCOM IIRC). To 99% of us, that doesn't mean doodly squat. They both use .223 brass so there is a convenience factor as well.

I haven't been to ARFCOM in about 10 years (long story) but I would suspect most of the posters are younger (OK, under 45) and grew up with or were trained on the AR platform by Uncle Sam, etc. They are more comfortable with the AR and a 16"-18" AR is just as handy (IMO) as an 18"-20" lever.

Since the .300 only needs a barrel swap (as I understand it), it's almost as cheap to change calibers as it would be with a Savage bolt action. If you want to drop a few more dollars and go uptown Saturday night, get a second upper and change calibers in about 10 seconds.

Gotta run but that's things as I see them...

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:26 am

I don't know Steve, I've been looking at the .3oo Blackout myself. Everybody keeps telling me I need an AR, Which I agree to but already have a .223.

What I see in the Blackout with the lighter bullets in the 7.62X39 range. For those that are looking for a subsonic shooter it launches a 220 grain .30 cal bullet @ 1100 fps.

The funny thing is I was looking at a .223 case not long ago and wondering just what it could be necked up to. That's before I heard of the Blackout.
There also seems to be a lot of marketing going on with all the companies involved. All owned it seems by the holding company that owns Remington, DPMS, and the rest of them.

I'm still thinking I like it.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:40 am

That's funny because I shoot 147gr from my 9mm pistol, and am thinking that it's closing in on .357 velocity from a carbine. say a sub2000. with glock 33 rd mags.

what's not to like? the bullets don't care how they get there.

Grizz

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:43 am

A lot of younger people have no desire to use leverguns or wheelguns (or muzzleloaders), but they do like ARs, AKs and such. Being that they - and not a boomer like myself - will increasingly be the demographic that marketing smarties target, I expect to see more new cartridges developed that work in some sort of AR platform even if those cartridges are redundantly redundant in their redundancy.

The cynic in me suspects that these same marketeers (and their compensated hoplopundits) would enthusiastically hail an AR chambering that duplicated .44 Henry terminal ballistics... as long as a buck could be made selling such "new stuff" to people who already had enough "old stuff."

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 12:06 pm

Remember how we got to where we are today.

In the mid 70's as a LEO we were thinking we had made a great jump in going from the .38 Special to the .357 Mag. Then came the WONDERNINES as they called them. OH BOY, NOW I CAN MISS FASTER!
IMHO all they had was a 14 shot .38. I'll take my Magnum thank you.

I did read however about a rifle match someone put on putting together the best of the best from different styles of shooting. Among them was David Tubbs. His rifle of choice was an AR platform chambered in .222 because it was supposed to be more accurate than the .223 and it was set up as a manually operated push pull rather than a semiauto.

crs · Post by **crs** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:15 pm

COsteve,
Though you are preaching to the choir of .357 magnum rifle shooters, KEEP IT UP.
I presume you read 86er's recent post on .357 rifle bullet weight VS effectiveness on game and found much there with which to agree. Those that use these rifles on game learn what works and what does not.

For instance, at rifle velocities, hollow point pistol bullets often do not penetrate on game where flat nose soft points and hard cast bullets generally do. However, a jacketed hollow point of 110 to 125 grains at over 2000 fps, will usually demolish varmint type critters such as 'dillers, fox, coyotes, skunks, coons, cats, turtles, troublesome birds, water jugs, etc. in a spectacular fashion.

With FMJ 9mm bullets the .357 can be a very handy gun for small game such a wild turkeys.

Keep on shooting and preaching so we do not forget to take our .357 rifles hunting!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 1:41 pm

Rusty wrote:What I see in the Blackout with the lighter bullets in the 7.62X39 range. For those that are looking for a subsonic shooter it launches a 220 grain .30 cal bullet @ 1100 fps.

I'm not sure why you couldn't do something like that in a .32-20 case, or close to it, assuming a 'modern' gun. If not that case, then a .30 Carbine.

The suppressed guns I've been around (99% of which were at one trade-show held at an outdoor range here last year) were far quieter when NOT semiautos; even the suppressed Ruger 10/22's made lots of clickety-clack noise as the actions worked. If a person wanted a truly quiet gun, I'd think they'd choose something like an Encore or even a bolt or lever gun. Granted, I realize that lots of the point is 'suppression' is to use regular (supersonic) ammo in a gun without needing hearing protectors, and for that a semiauto in .223 or .300 or whatever will still be much less damaging to one's hearing when suppressed, and if subsonic ammo is used, so much the better.

Personally, if one of the 6.5 mm or .30 cal AR's becomes popular enough to be 'standard' and
widely available, I'd consider it, but between the .223 Rem and the .50 Beowulf, much is covered already. However, I do think it would be interesting to suppress a .32-20 Encore barrel and shoot the heaviest .308" bullets you could get going 900 fps without going over-pressure...

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:19 pm

crs wrote:COsteve,
Though you are preaching to the choir of .357 magnum rifle shooters, KEEP IT UP.
I presume you read 86er's recent post on .357 rifle bullet weight VS effectiveness on game and found much there with which to agree. Those that use these rifles on game learn what works and what does not.

For instance, at rifle velocities, hollow point pistol bullets often do not penetrate on game where flat nose soft points and hard cast bullets generally do. However, a jacketed hollow point of 110 to 125 grains at over 2000 fps, will usually demolish varmint type critters such as 'dillers, fox, coyotes, skunks, coons, cats, turtles, troublesome birds, water jugs, etc. in a spectacular fashion.

With FMJ 9mm bullets the .357 can be a very handy gun for small game such a wild turkeys.

Keep on shooting and preaching so we do not forget to take our .357 rifles hunting!

This is a post with PITH.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:46 pm

We've got two customers that we put together AR 13" barreled 300 Blackouts for and since we are class 3 also they ordered suppressors for them as well .

One of these guys hunts damage control permits in some of the sub divisions and plans to use it in that application . The other guy I'm not sure why he wants it .

My gunsmith buddy just bought a pair of the Remington 700 Tacticals with the 20" threaded barrels (223 and 308) and I'll soon start working up subsonic or very close to subsonic loads for both rifles as he planns to use one or both when we damage control hunt the peach orchard this summer . And he also has a suppressor that will work on either . I suspect the 308 may end up in my hands a good deal during our DCP hunting this summer .

Another friend just bought the new Savage Model 10 Hog Hunter in 308 . This thing is actually kinda neat it comes with a 22" threaded barrel with a cap and cost about $425 . I've already agreed to do the load work for him as well . I'll use our gunsmith buddies can with the Hog Hunter and once we see if the thing shoots well enough with a 220 grain bullet at subsonic velocities then he'll decide whether or not to buy a can of his own .

I've found two companies , that sell bullets in the 200-240 grain range that are supposedly made expressly for use in subsonic 30 cal loads . Although they are a bit pricey about $1.20 per loadable progectile .

I can't say I'm overly enthused about the subsonic velocities . But I am hoping this whole thing works out . This whole process is actually 180 degrees from just about all I've ever tried doing with a bolt action rifle in the past

The only thing I see good about the whole application is QUIET , in my own case perhaps it will keep the owner of the peach orchard from sticking his head out his front door everytime as soon as I shoot yelling to ask what I killed . He kinda squashes getting a second deer when he does that .

We've already fired some standard velocity factory 308 loads in the M1A with the can on it sounds about like a standard velocity 22LR same for the AR 223 .

It is my hope to get my gunsmith friends 223 with 60 grainers and the can shooting 3 into an inch at 100 yards with a velocity of about 1250-1500 FPS and with the pair of 308's 1050 FPS with a 220 grainer is optimum objective , but I kinda think anything under 1500 FPS will be plenty quiet for the applications they wanna use them for .

Oh yeah back to the opriginal question about the 300 Blackout , I can't say it's something I would want . I am of the opinion I can load a 308 WIN down and get the same objective . However I cannot load a 300 Blackout up to 308 WIN velocities if the need arises .

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 2:57 pm

I'm not really debating the effectiveness of two rounds but more focusing on the fact that the AR is about 3 times the price and 2 times the weight. It seems that the youngsters have a lot to learn about firearms.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 3:05 pm

COSteve wrote:I'm not really debating the effectiveness of two rounds but more focusing on the fact that the AR is about 3 times the price and 2 times the weight. It seems that the youngsters have a lot to learn about firearms.

To my way of thinking about the 300 Blackout you're kinda comparing apples and oranges when you compare it to the 357 MAG . So there really isn't anything to debate if you aren't comparring effectiveness as you put it .

The 300 Blackout to me is usefull in an application for shooting deer and being quiet nothing else (although I still think a downloaded 308 bolt rifle is a better avenue to take). I do not view the 357 MAG lever action in the same way .

I've owned a couple 357 MAG lever actioned Marlin's that shot very nicely with jacketed and cast bullets . But I do not own one now or plan on getting another . As to the 300 Blackout I have no intention of buying one of them either and certainly not on an AR platform .

COSteve · Post by **COSteve** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:08 pm

I guess I'm not being clear in my comparison. What I'm trying to say is that for the two calibers being somewhat similar for hog hunting applications, the AR is the heavier and more expensive choice but it still has a lot of buzz going for it.

Also, many might consider the larger dia, heavier, flat nosed 357mag round more effective on hogs at similar velocities, especially in the under 100yd ranges most are taken.

Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of ARs and they are tons of fun to shoot and have their place. Lugging one through the brush after hogs isn't my idea of their best use.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:21 pm

I know what you mean as far as weight goes, but to be honest about it today's AR's are just to heavy across the boards. When the Gov't ditched the M-14's in favor of the M-16 one of the big deals was weight. Now days the difference ain't there. For the 9 pounds in an AR I can have an M-1.

TravisM · Post by **TravisM** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:21 pm

I think it's a great observation and am glad it was brought up.

I look at it this way. With my .357 levergun, I can effectively use the big rounds to properly hunt hogs with. If I buy an AR, I can now convert it to do the same with 300 blackout.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:36 pm

Without reading all the other answers I'll attempt to express my point of view on the matter.

As you know, I have a .357 Mag carbine. I like it, a lot. It is NOT an AR. It does NOT hold 30 rounds in the magazine. It is not suppressible (in practical terms). I do NOT want to scope it. I do not want a sling on it. I might baby it a bit more than an AR. The rifles ARE less expensive than the ARs. They aren't necessarily lighter.

The .300 AAC Blackout interests me. It is the SAAMI version of the .300 Whisper. The Whisper was made up out of .221 Fireball brass and the Blackout is of otherwise the same dimensions but different only enough that one can make it up from SHORTENED and reformed .223 Rem brass without reaming or turning the neck. It can give 7.62x39 performance in the AR without the feeding problems sometimes exhibited by the COMBLOC round as it moves into the straight portion of the magazine/magazine well. It can use heavy 220 gr. bullets. The bullets being .30 as opposed to .35 have higher SD and BC. A .30 caliber AR is of interest anywhere one can't legally hunt deer with the 5.56mm/.223 Rem.

What it really comes down to is "what floats YOUR boat?" There was a time that I'd had my fill of the AR, sold mine, didn't look back, etc. Then I thought, this is something EVERY citizen should own. Now I'm interested in actually using it and for some game in VA that means something larger bore than .23 cal. (per VA law/reg).

deafrn · Post by **deafrn** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:57 pm

COSteve wrote:Don't get me wrong, I own a couple of ARs and they are tons of fun to shoot and have their place. Lugging one through the brush after hogs isn't my idea of their best use.

I eschewed lever guns as long as I did just because there were so many of them around when I was a kid that they seemed dull as potatoes compared to the WWII surplus stuff floating around and the flashy big-game guns being marketed at the time. A lot of the younger guys today have never really had much exposure to lever guns (or double shotguns for that matter) at all, so they may simply not know what they might be missing. I've noted how many shooters in the early 30's age bracket have never fired a lever-action rifle in their lives... not surprising given what they've actually been exposed to.

Some of these lads can't believe how trim and slick a '92 actually is when they see me shooting my "flavor of the month" .357 trapper. "@#$%, that @#$%^& is LIGHT!" or some similar thing is usually the first thing any of them say, but I suspect that it really isn't the weight at all, but the difference in bulk, or the overall "feel" that is really what strikes them. Some get the bug, others don't.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 4:58 pm

Hobie wrote: Now I'm interested in actually using it and for some game in VA that means something larger bore than .23 cal. (per VA law/reg).

During any Damage Control shooting a 22 cal is legal in VA . I'm just not overly happy about needing to take headshots with a suppressed 223 over lung/heart shots with a suppressed 308 or whatever one would care to use with low velocity loads and a can .

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:02 pm

COSteve wrote:I guess I'm not being clear in my comparison. What I'm trying to say is that for the two calibers being somewhat similar for hog hunting applications, the AR is the heavier and more expensive choice but it still has a lot of buzz going for it.

If I were gonna shoot piglets I wouldn't use the 300 or the 357 . I'd opt for atleast my nice OLD Marlin 336-44 in 44 MAG . If I was in an area after them that noise was a factor I'd go with a bolt action 308 with a can on the barrel and shoot regular velocity loads . As I said earlier with the can they're no more noise then a standard velocity 22LR .

Thunder50 · Post by **Thunder50** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:30 pm

I don't think my AR15 carbine has a weight double that of my 357 levergun. I can buy a new carbine for under $600 and buy a blackout barrel for less than $180. Barrel swap is easy. Add dies, may be pushing $820. Thats not pushing three times the cost of my levergun. Add a cast bullet of 250gr, or go down to 120gr if I want.

I like them both. Have a blackout barrel, hopefully, on the way soon

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 9:30 pm

The purpose of the .300BLK was not to make a pig hunting rifle; it was to make a .30 chambering that uses all the standard AR parts such as the bolt and magazines and keeps the same round count, the only change to the gun is a barrel. One of it's main advantages is that it retains higher energy levels and works better suppressed from shorter barrels than the 5.56. I've yet to find any ballistics on any barrel over 16" and it uses pistol powders like H110 for reloading. I'm watching this one a bit as I've been planning to build a 7.62x39 AR, however those have their own issues.

BAGTIC · Post by **BAGTIC** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:19 pm

I load almost all my own ammo. I am cheap. It is easier to police your brass from a lever action. 'Nuff said.

When something is far enough away that I have to start worrying about my bullet's B.C. I don't need to be shooting at it.

For some reason hunting, like love making, is more satisfying up close and personal.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:01 pm

COSteve wrote:I'm not really debating the effectiveness of two rounds but more focusing on the fact that the AR is about 3 times the price and 2 times the weight. It seems that the youngsters have a lot to learn about firearms.

My Uncle hunted with his M1 Garand Rifle until he turned 75--he hunted with that heavy battle-weapon because that was what the Marine Corp. taught him to use, plus his experience in combat gave him confidence with that weapon system. The young LEO's that have military service love their patrol rifles, some even hunt with them, changing the upper to a .308 Win., it's what they know, it's what they have been trained with, it's an old friend...for me give me a levergun everytime... :)

Comment: in the group of guys that I hunt and shoot with (about 11 guys) I'm the only one with leverguns...lots of AR's, Bolt-guns and 10/22's...they all think my Browning BL-22 is quaint...

awp101 · Post by **awp101** » Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:03 pm

Here's a question for those more familiar with the cartridge than I: I've read it can be had in a 200g sub-sonic load. Is there any benefit to using that load un-suppressed? Can the 200g bullet be used in a supersonic load?

The chance of me getting a can is slim to none unless those six magic lottery numbers hit but I do like heavy for caliber bullets and a 200g .30 cal load seems like it's right up my alley.

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:30 am

awp101 wrote:The chance of me getting a can is slim to none unless those six magic lottery numbers hit but I do like heavy for caliber bullets and a 200g .30 cal load seems like it's right up my alley.

A can really isn't that expensive . I believe my friends got them for about $550 and then you add the $200 tax/license .

Well I suppose $750 ain't chicken feed , but thats just one decent rifle with a good scope .

I have no intentions of buying a rifle for one or buying one myself . However my gunsmith buddy has his silencer in something they refer to as a trust and my name is one of those in this "trust" . Which makes it perfectly legal for me to use his can on any threaded rifle it can handle as long as I have his paperwork with me at the time .

Hence part of the reason I was agreeable to do the loading for them

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:34 am

1892m wrote: Comment: in the group of guys that I hunt and shoot with (about 11 guys) I'm the only one with leverguns...lots of AR's, Bolt-guns and 10/22's...they all think my Browning BL-22 is quaint...

"Quaint" , thats classic !

Of the 11 deer and one bear I got this past season all but one deer were killed with lever actions shooting cast bullets of my own manufacture !

spaceman spiff · Post by **spaceman spiff** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 12:41 am

Rusty wrote:I know what you mean as far as weight goes, but to be honest about it today's AR's are just to heavy across the boards. When the Gov't ditched the M-14's in favor of the M-16 one of the big deals was weight. Now days the difference ain't there. For the 9 pounds in an AR I can have an M-1.

+1

I like your thinking.....

spaceman

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:35 am

Rusty wrote:I know what you mean as far as weight goes, but to be honest about it today's AR's are just to heavy across the boards. When the Gov't ditched the M-14's in favor of the M-16 one of the big deals was weight. Now days the difference ain't there. For the 9 pounds in an AR I can have an M-1.

An M4 empty weighs 6.1 lbs,a heavy barrel match A2 weighs 8.5lbs, an M1A empty weighs 9.8lbs.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:00 am

sore shoulder wrote:
Rusty wrote:I know what you mean as far as weight goes, but to be honest about it today's AR's are just to heavy across the boards. When the Gov't ditched the M-14's in favor of the M-16 one of the big deals was weight. Now days the difference ain't there. For the 9 pounds in an AR I can have an M-1.
An M4 empty weighs 6.1 lbs,a heavy barrel match A2 weighs 8.5lbs, an M1A empty weighs 9.8lbs.

Yeah, but ya forgot the 16.2 lbs of tacticool kit on the rails & flattop.

#1 I think anything that puts more EBRs into peoples hands is a good thing. Makes it even harder for the Goob to wish them away.

#2 I agree with Steve re: wildcat AR vs. 357 Lever

#3 I like my 9lb HK .308

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:58 am

Add-ons are irrelevant, since all of them can be weighted down with them. The fact that you can easily put a scope and flashlight on one is an advantage, not a con, and the fact it ONLY weighs that much with all the add-ons is a plus. It's also very compact for the weight. Try putting a scope and flashlite on an M1A. By the time you are done it will weigh much more. I have an A2 configured 16" carbine with just a flashlight, and with two 30 rounds mags in a side by side clip and a cheek piece on the stock that holds 6 spare batteries it weighs 8 lbs. If I add a scope it will weigh 9lbs. With the magic bullet for caliber 75gr HP match and those accessories I can do a lot. My coyote rifle 20" A2 with a scope, bi-pod, a very large high powered flashlite and 20 rounds weighs 10lbs

Now hang a flashlight and extra batteries and 60 rounds and a scope, or a scope, large flashlight and bipod off an M1a and see how much it weighs. In either case I'm, betting over

If given a choice between the two for an all around utility gun, I would take the AR. "Better" is subjective and is not determined merely by superior ballistics.

BTW Iron sights I know you were being sarcastic.

However it was a perfect opportunity.

damienph · Post by **damienph** » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:10 pm

Old Ironsights wrote: I think anything that puts more EBRs into peoples hands is a good thing. Makes it even harder for the Goob to wish them away.... I like my 9lb HK .308

+++!!!

allhands · Post by **allhands** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:03 am

In reading one of the many gun hype magazines that I subscribe to, they are now calling the AR platform the,"new model 94". Hey to each his own, and as long as AR's are getting people into the shooting/hunting sports, the more the merrier....

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:21 am

allhands wrote:In reading one of the many gun hype magazines that I subscribe to, they are now calling the AR platform the,"new model 94". Hey to each his own, and as long as AR's are getting people into the shooting/hunting sports, the more the merrier....

Works for me, even though I'm not a fan.

Nobody gives a levergun a second glance today because of how ubiquitous they are/were. "Grampaw's gun" you know.

It will be a good day when ARs get to that point.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:58 am

Dudes---watch this one right below(how cool is that)??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ALp8-d3dQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Q7EsIP ... re=related

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Tue Mar 06, 2012 11:02 am

madman4570 wrote:Dudes---watch this one right below(how cool is that)??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5ALp8-d3dQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-Q7EsIP ... re=related

First ones pretty decent for the sound level . Although the guy doing the shooting needs to talk alot LESS !

handirifle · Post by **handirifle** » Thu Mar 08, 2012 12:46 pm

I do not own one, but would like it in a mini 14. Why? When using a 150-130gr bullet, the ballistics are almost dead even between the 300 and the 30-30 Win with a 150gr load. But the 300 holds its power longer, farther downrange than the 30-30 or the 357.

Cost to shoot between the 357 and the 300 are probably about the same but there is a million different 30 cal bullets available, and not so many for the .357. Once guy posted a pic of the Barnes .308 110gr TSX that was shot into ballistic gel, at 300yds. Perfect expansion, and especially in the AR platform, very accurate.

I suppose it's more of the type of platform you want to carry it in, for hunting because under 100yds there probably isn't a huge difference, unless you want to get into the "suppressed" category, but that isn't available to me, in CA so it's a no brainer.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:04 am

I do NOT get the fascination with the Whisper line of wildcats nor the 300 Blackout unless one is shooting subsonics for some sort of tactical reason...which no one out in the civil world is. Useless and silly in my view.

The 6.8 SPC? Sure, I get that - it was an effort to improve the knock down power of an AR-15. Load data I'm looking at sure seems to kick the 300 Blackout in the teeth and folks seem to like the 6.8 for hunting too. Good on 'em.

The 6.5mm Grendel? I get that too - it's the 7.62x39 case with better geometry for an AR-15 platform, better bullet shape for down range performance, and higher pressure for overall great performance. Fantastic round because it actually improves on one of the great, classic rounds and it works like a charm out of ARs.

The .30 Remington AR? Sounds good to me - it greatly improves on the 7.62x39 as well and can throw heavier bullets than the 6.5 Grendel. Makes 300 Blackout look idiotic by comparison, but heck, so does the good old 7.62x39 Russian if you ask me! Some say the .30 RAR doesn't push far enough ahead of the 7.62x39, but I disagree because it's throwing heavier bullets faster than the Russian but, perhaps more importantly, it feeds and works well out of ARs due to the shape of the case. As with the 300 Blackout it's got Remington behind it, but I wish Remington would push it harder with more loadings vs. screwing around with this silly Blackout thing.

The WSSM chamberings struck me as dumb as dirt out of bolt rifles, but now there are smiths out there chambering them in AR-15s. Brilliant! I'd LOVE one in .243 WSSM - a real barn burner and very versatile as any .243 Winchester fan knows. Not sure they have the reliability and bolt longevity issues worked out though - these chamberings are really stretching the small AR platform.

.450 Bushmaster and .458 SOCOM? Hey I feel the draw of something like that pretty much the same as I like .44 magnum carbines. THOSE sound like some great pig guns to me and with the .458 you're pretty much talking about .45-70 out of a high capacity carbine. Fun stuff!

.500 Beowulf? What's not to like about .50-90 Sharps out of an AR-15? Good golly Miss Molly! Sign me up grandpa.

But this 300 Blackout thing that's all the rage for 15 minutes? Ridiculous in my view given the obvious options, but that's just my 2¢ worth.

Oly

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:30 am

handirifle wrote:I do not own one, but would like it in a mini 14. Why? When using a 150-130gr bullet, the ballistics are almost dead even between the 300 and the 30-30 Win with a 150gr load. But the 300 holds its power longer, farther downrange than the 30-30 or the 357.

They already make a Mini-14 in 7.62x39. The load data I'm looking at shows the Russian beats this Blackout thing by a couple hundred fps easy. I just don't see the need, but given that the bolt stays the same it's an easy re-barrel I guess so...

I wish that Ruger would chamber the Mini in 6.5mm Grendel or the .450 Bushmaster since they don't make their .44 mag carbines any longer.

Oly

Post by **Hobie** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 11:47 am

Ruger did make the Mini14 in 6.8 SPC...

Mutt · Post by **Mutt** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:04 pm

I just like my Rossi in .357 lever . Plain but good. Looks pretty also.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Mutt

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 12:28 pm

Hobie wrote:Ruger did make the Mini14 in 6.8 SPC...

Yes indeed. The 6.8 has yet to appeal to me strongly, but I'd like to have a Mini 30 and it's on the short list.

The original question was what the heck does a 300 BLK AR get you that a .357 lever gun does not do better and I agree with the OP that the answer is not much at all except the obvious high capacity magazines in exchange for added weight. I'd rather have a .357 carbine.

But if the choice is a Ruger Mini 30 carbine vs. a .357 lever gun I find the decision much harder to make and I suppose the same is true of a Ruger Mini-14 in 6.8 SPC vs. a lever gun in .357 or .30-30 -- it's a hard call for me to make because I have a soft spot for the Mini Garand!

The clear answer is to own many versions of all of the above so that you can make your choice based on whimsy.

Oly

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 1:50 pm

I have a Noveske matched receiver set that needs a barrel and i was strongly considering the .300 Blackout/Whisper --- but i am now re-considering in favor of something with a little more "pop" -- i wish the .30 RAR would get a little more steam, it is exactly what i had in mind --- .300 Whisper is not worth it unless suppressed

So back to the point of the thread, i would probably prefer a 357 levergun to the .300 for my uses (and i love AR's ) --

but when comparing weight -- it would be more fruitful to compare a 357 levergun to a carbine length AR with a 5 or 10 round hunting-spec magazine rather than a fully loaded 30 rounder. So equipped and with iron sights, the weight difference won't be much

6pt-sika · Post by **6pt-sika** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:38 pm

I'm doing subsonic right now in bolt action 223 and a pair of bolt action 308's .No big deal really and easy enough so far . However my desire for this is purely quiet deer killers during the DCP season .

Any other reason and I'd not be intrested .

And I might add if it doesn't kill in a way inside 75 yards that I deem satisfactory I'll deep six this for my own use PDQ !

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:51 pm

olyinaz wrote:I do NOT get the fascination with the Whisper line of wildcats nor the 300 Blackout unless one is shooting subsonics for some sort of tactical reason...which no one out in the civil world is. Useless and silly in my view.

I disagree. If you can put the sound protection on the end of your gun instead of over your ears that is a lot more practical. Use of suppressors is not, and should not, be relegated to the "authorities" or "tactical" use. Besides, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a suppressor on my home defense guns? It gives me an advantage and protects my hearing. If I'm culling pigs and use a suppressed rifle, I'm more likely to get more animals before they get spooked and run. There are European countries that require them for sport shooters and sell them over the counter without any paperwork.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Fri Mar 09, 2012 8:59 pm

sore shoulder wrote:
olyinaz wrote:I do NOT get the fascination with the Whisper line of wildcats nor the 300 Blackout unless one is shooting subsonics for some sort of tactical reason...which no one out in the civil world is. Useless and silly in my view.
I disagree. If you can put the sound protection on the end of your gun instead of over your ears that is a lot more practical. Use of suppressors is not, and should not, be relegated to the "authorities" or "tactical" use. Besides, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a suppressor on my home defense guns? It gives me an advantage and protects my hearing. If I'm culling pigs and use a suppressed rifle, I'm more likely to get more animals before they get spooked and run. There are European countries that require them for sport shooters and sell them over the counter without any paperwork.

+1000

And the "authorities" rationale doesn't wash - at least in regards to hunting. If it did, bowhunters should be required to sound an air-horn immediately on release so the fishy-game cops can tell when someone is hunting.