33 WCF ammo tests

[coyote nose]

Well, I am still testing old factory ammo for leverguns. Already tested 30-30 and 348 Win ammo. Here are the latests musings and testing of factory ammo for the 33 Win in my 1886. My procedure is to pull all bullets with a collet type puller. This allows examination of powder (for deterioration and type), the case, and I always change the primer (dont know if the original is mercuric or corrosive). I then reseat the bullet and test them at the range. For this test I had 3 types of Remington factory ammo. First up was a 200 GN JSP with a copper jacket bullet. Powder looked like an IMR type, averaged 39.4 GN wt, case marked REM-UMC with a flat base case (ie: no ledge on the case like the others had). I am guessing 1950's or 60's vintage but I dont know. Case was solid head and weighed 198.1 GN average.

Next up was a remington 200 GN JSP that had a plated (tin?) jacket with a lead tip. Powder was a thick round disk type that weighed 32.4 GN. I think the powder was the old "Lightning" powder but of course have no way of knowing. case weighed 192.7 Gn and while not solid head was not baloon head either...it had a little balloon type interior. The back of the case showed a ledge..I hope it shows up in the photos.I am guessing maybe late 1930's or 1940s vintage

Last up was a box I had that can be dated to 1930-1933. This was a 200 GN JSP with a tin plated jacket and in addition the lead tip was also plated. Case was the same as #2, powder was the same as #2 but weighed 33.8 GN.

Now off to the range with the chronograph. Alll I can say is wow! Bench rest, 3 shots at 100 yards with a tang sight. Load #1 did 0.8" (!) with a MV of 2025 fps and is the top right group in the photo. #2 did 2.2" with a MV of 2035. Load #3 did 1.0" with a MV of 2010 fps and is the bottom left group in the photo. I realize one group each is not anything to go off of. I generally need 3 groups before I figure out what load is good, but I am limited with the availability of this ammo and am impressed with the way it shoots! My criteria for loads in open sighted leverguns is 3" maximum. usually by handloading I can attain that (or I will sell the gun like the 38-55 I once owned) and as can be seen these factory loads just amazed me.

One thing I didn't like was that velocity was about 200 FPS under what the factories advertised back then. I do get over 2200 FPS with my hunting load in this rifle (IMR 4064 and the hornady bullet) so just getting 2000 FPS was rather puzzling. Anyway...the tests continue.....

[2ndovc]

That 1886 is a beauty! Shoots good too!


jb

[Mike D.]

I have shot plenty of that old Rem-UMC .33 CF ammo and never bothered to take it apart. Not curious enough, I suppose. All shot fine and didn't seem to harm any of my rifles. Reloaded the brass several times and still use it. Better than new, that's for sure.

[KWK]

Whelen's 1918 (or so) book says factory .33 WCF was about 2050 fps.

Perhaps most of the factories later kept to that speed? The 2200 fps may have been possible with later powders and the same pressure, but was it used by all factories? Just speculating here.

[Sixgun]

Neat test and fine pictures! The powder in #2 & #3 sure looks like Lightning. I have a pound here that I have been playing with that was given to me by my good friend Jack Kort. (w30wcf) The powder in #1 looks like IMR 3031 and if my memory sertves me right, I believe that was the powder that was used in the later loadings of the grand old 33 WCF.

I'm "thinking" the velocity was a tad lower due to age of the powder. You got me thinking now as I must have 10 boxes of that laying around and while most are nice, a few are ripped with shells missing so I'm gonna play this weekend.

Nice '86. Octagon barreled 33?? Never made 'em. How did you come across that? ---------------Sixgun

[coyote nose]

Thanks guys. Phil Sharpes book lists loads for lightning, and by interpolating I find 33 grains of it would give 2150fps, so perhaps the age of the rounds (80 years) is responsible for the velocity loss. I notice I have a "fast" barrel...that is, my reloads tend to chrono HIGHER than what is listed, as we all know usually published figures are optimistic, so the lower velocities than what I expected on factory ammo was puzzling, until now. I dont know where I got the 2200fps factory data. I just checked a 1932 Ideal handbook and they list MV of the 33WCF as 2060...so I guess I am at fault here!
Sixgun, if you shoot that factory ammo I would at least try to break the bullet seal by just touching the bullet with your seating die. Many times I have found a bullet "welded" into the case by corrosion. By bumping the bullet with the seating die you would break that "weld" which otherwise I assume would cause a pressure spike. That and the primer switch (let me tell you about the hangfires I had while testing 348 winchester ammo) are the main reasons I pull the bullets first now.
You asked how I got an octagon 1886 in 33. Here is how:
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=34275
And yes sixgun, w30wcf is a fine fellow. He sent me some 45-75 bullets at a time I was having trouble finding them. There are many fine people on this forum.
One more thing, I read a LOT of old gun magazines and the general belief back then was that Lightning was erosive to gun barrels.....may want to keep that in mind

[3leggedturtle]

That is just cool, I love to read test and reports like this. Todd

[Sixgun]

NOW I remember! It ain't easy gettin' semi-old. Sometimes I can't remember what I had for lunch, even 20 minutes later.

Funny thing about shooting old ammo and I've shot lots of it. If it looks good, as in "not tarnished", with none of that green stuff on it, the ammo usually works very well. Even BP military 45-70 ammo has gone off. I did have a lot of trouble with WW1 '06/45 ammo.

Now you gotta take that '86 out and bust a deer with it.-----------Sixgun

[KirkD]

Excellent post. I am wondering why you got a 2" group with the one set of ammo. Did you measure the bullet diameters when you pulled them?

[KWK]

I dont know where I got the 2200fps factory data. I just checked a 1932 Ideal handbook and they list MV of the 33WCF as 2060...so I guess I am at fault here!

No fault of yours. References such as Cartridges of the World quote 2200 fps, so I'm sure some late factory stuff was (claimed to be) that fast. I've seen a quote from a 1920 Winchester catalog that suggests factory stuff was still only 2050 at that time. I've also seen reports of modern chronograph data on old factory ammo giving 2150 or so--which may simply be real world performance of the hotter "2200 fps" stuff.

I suspect 2050 will slay anything 2200 will, so there's no need to push it, really.

[coyote nose]

Kirk, I never thought to mic the bullet diameter!! Duh on me! In any case, the 2.2" group does not bother me and I am quite happy with it. Statistically group sizes should follow a bell shaped curve...the tight groups are no doubt on the left side of the curve. If I were to shoot more groups the average size would probably be much larger than 0.8". The 2.2" group is probably more representative of what I can get out of this rifle from a bench. As an example, my best group (a handload) out of this rifle was 0.3"!! But the next 2 groups with this load (shot on different days) were 2.2" then 1.7", so far that is a 1.3" average. Again. as long as I am under 3" I am happy. The big problem with 33 WCF is hornady stopped making their 200 GN bullet for it back in 2002 or so, as a result I am trying to go easy on testing and using up these bullets...once I have a load developed, and I think I do, I switched over to cast bullets and use those for plinking.