Native American Indians

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:21 pm

Just got back from a trip to home place in Indiana. Highway 40 for the most part. On the way back to Hemet, CA I stopped in Gallup, NM. I pulled into this service station and seen all customers were Indians and the owner was also an Indian. Found they were Navajo and I was at the edge of the huge Navajo reservation. Had been seeing many homes along the road I knew had to be Indian. Some were rather new and of a similar design so assumed they were made possible with government help--to one degree or another. Also got to thinking many of these Indians in their simple homes are probably happier than a lot of whites who have far more material things.

Just did a search and assuming these numbers pertaining to Indian tribe populations are reasonably accurate.

Navajo--308,013
Cherokee--285,476
Sioux--131,048
Chippiwa--115,859
Choctaw--88,913
Apache--64,869
Pueblo--59,337
Iroquois--48,365
Creek--44,085
Blackfeet--23,583

As many of you know, these numbers would be much, much higher--maybe 100X or more--if so many had not been killed by 'White Man Diseases' many years ago.

I wish all Native American Indians the best. They got a raw deal from the white man but I hear our government has been making amends for several years and one big 'payback' to Indians is in today's news.

My grandfather's mother, on my mother's side, was at least 50% Indian and I'll bet we have a lot of people in this group with at least a little 'Indian blood' in them.

Appreciate any knowledge of the various tribes some of you may want to contribute.

I know there are many other tribes than I've listed above but these are supposed to be the largest. The Hopi's I've just discovered have their reservation right in the middle of the Navajo reservation. Read they have had their differences.

Don

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:29 pm

That Hopi/ Navajo thing is hundreds of years old.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:39 pm

Drug and alcohol abuse on the Navajo Res,ervation is at or above 50%. The suicide rate is several times that of white America. Their "simple life" is not such a happy one as folks would suppose. I lived in Farmington New Mexico for several years and worked among the Navajo on frequest occasions.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:50 pm

Gallup, when I was young was the place where tribal council was held, it was always an adventure to go to Gallup during tribal council.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:57 pm

Chippawa here, when i was a kid they had a pow wow every week which was cool but they don`t have them much any more.
They own a lot of casinos now and doing good, but still a mean bunch.

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 3:58 pm

I live on the edge of a large reservation and I can assure you those people in their "simple homes" as you term it are not happy and do not live a happy life, for the most part. Drug abuse and alcholism are rampant, unemployment is around 80 %, life expectancy is WAY lower than the US average, school dropout rate is horrendous, crime rate is also. Domestic violence and sexual abuse of children is common. Over half of births are to unmarried mothers. Those houses you see along the road are built entirely with your federal tax dollars, frequently they are trashed and unlivable within a couple of years, the residents pay only a token amount to live in them. The people are the victims of 6 generations of cradle-to-the-grave absolute socialism, with the goverment providing free medical care, housing, on and on, through the BIA. The social problems on the res would make most inner city problems look like a day in the park.

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:58 pm

Maybe what has happened to the Indians would be what America would look like in 20 years if Obama's socialism were allowed to take hold. Not wanting to get political, I just really never had thought of it like that until this post.

Here in Fla we have the Seminoles. The only tribe that has never signed a treaty with the U.S. Govt. They are in the process of building the 3rd largest casino in the U.S. in Tampa right now.

2571 · Post by **2571** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:07 pm

Sauk.

Have never taken any handout except some merit scholarship loans in college and regret having accepted those. Paid 'em back soon after graduating.

Accept something from the gov't they own your soul.

Walker · Post by **Walker** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:26 pm

getitdone1 wrote:one big 'payback' to Indians is in today's news.

Hey Don,

I didn't see anything in the news about it. What's the story?

Thanks,

Terry (about a thimbull full of Choctaw blood)

KCSO · Post by **KCSO** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:08 pm

I would rather be an Alabama field hand in 1860 than live on the rez today.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 10:15 pm

It is obvious you have never been exposed to the Mescalero res. in south central N.M.
This tribe has it together.
As for the poster who said the only tribe that has never signed a treaty with the U.S.
I beg to differ.
Ever hear of the battle of round rock?

Post by **Ysabel Kid** » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:10 pm

Had I won the big lottery recently, some of the winnings would have gone to a couple charities I actively support that serve Native Americans.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:10 am

Walker wrote:
getitdone1 wrote:one big 'payback' to Indians is in today's news.
Hey Don,

I didn't see anything in the news about it. What's the story?

Thanks,

Terry (about a thimbull full of Choctaw blood)

Terry,

"US to pay Indian Tribes 1 billion over mismanagement of trust funds and resources." See www.newser.com for full story. I use this site all the time for my news.

I read that the Navajo have lots of natural resources on their land.

I've always been kinda partial to the Nez Perce. From what I've read they were peaceful and respectful to the 'white man.' Well....up until they heard their land was going to be taken from them. I've been to their original country in N.E. Oregon. Pretty area.

Don

ving-thorr · Post by **ving-thorr** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:51 am

Mescalero wrote:It is obvious you have never been exposed to the Mescalero res. in south central N.M.
This tribe has it together.
As for the poster who said the only tribe that has never signed a treaty with the U.S.
I beg to differ.
Ever hear of the battle of round rock?

real pretty up there!

gotta say I'd much rather live on the Mescalero rez and work at the Inn of the Mountain Gods than live in Roswell and work at the alien museum! Take a look around both places and tell me who has more culture!!!

gotta confess though, Mescalero, I didn't think the fry bread was the greatest thing since, er rather, pre-dating sliced bread.

might try to do some elk hunting on the white mountain rez one of these years here, we'll see . . .

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:15 am

jnyork wrote:I live on the edge of a large reservation and I can assure you those people in their "simple homes" as you term it are not happy and do not live a happy life, for the most part. Drug abuse and alcholism are rampant, unemployment is around 80 %, life expectancy is WAY lower than the US average, school dropout rate is horrendous, crime rate is also. Domestic violence and sexual abuse of children is common. Over half of births are to unmarried mothers. Those houses you see along the road are built entirely with your federal tax dollars, frequently they are trashed and unlivable within a couple of years, the residents pay only a token amount to live in them. The people are the victims of 6 generations of cradle-to-the-grave absolute socialism, with the goverment providing free medical care, housing, on and on, through the BIA. The social problems on the res would make most inner city problems look like a day in the park.

Yep. Edit: Well, a lot of 'em at least - not all of course. Don't mean to offend anyone and I've got some N.A. blood in me too. I just haven't seen much other than what was said above.

Oly

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:59 am

I was not offended

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:32 am

Pitchy wrote: but still a mean bunch.

Oh man, just what I needed to get my day started. Pitch, you 'da man!!!

Thats what I call a picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I like a guy with a GREAT sense of humor.

---------------------Sixgun

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:57 am

No, never heard of the battle of round rock before.

Google didn't turn up anything I could find either, sorry.

I'd like to hear it if you have time to tell it.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:01 am

Mescalero put a hurt on the U.S. cavalry there.
Every year there seeems to be a few extra elk tags floating around my area in N.M.
I know the last two years they went unfilled.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:18 am

Served with a guy who grew up on the reservation. Unsure which tribe, it's been a couple years. Tallest Indian (he refused to go by "Native American") I ever knew, he was 6'3 or so.

Absolutely hated white people. Ironically since he joined the Air Force, which was about as 'white' a service as you can get even these days with the various technical jobs.

He tolerated the rest of us, but he had some (deserved) deep down anger there. Still, he raised his right hand with the rest of us, and when everything went to hell he was about the best grenadier on the face of the planet according to the guys who were in Iraq with him.

pneuby · Post by **pneuby** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:43 am

I live on the edge of a large reservation and I can assure you those people in their "simple homes" as you term it are not happy and do not live a happy life, for the most part. Drug abuse and alcholism are rampant, unemployment is around 80 %, life expectancy is WAY lower than the US average, school dropout rate is horrendous, crime rate is also. Domestic violence and sexual abuse of children is common. Over half of births are to unmarried mothers. Those houses you see along the road are built entirely with your federal tax dollars, frequently they are trashed and unlivable within a couple of years, the residents pay only a token amount to live in them. The people are the victims of 6 generations of cradle-to-the-grave absolute socialism, with the goverment providing free medical care, housing, on and on, through the BIA. The social problems on the res would make most inner city problems look like a day in the park.

jnyork

I here in Metro Phoenix. Three large reservations around me. This poster has it pretty well spot on.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:53 am

I honestly can't understand why any human would want to stay on a gubment reservation.....be they white, black, red, brown or what have you. There are several tribes in the area that are rich from the casinos they run, and the res is still inhabited with savaged souls....Could the thought or trouble of mainstreaming with America be that horrible?

vancelw · Post by **vancelw** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:43 pm

BlaineG wrote: I honestly can't understand why any human would want to stay on a gubment reservation.....be they white, black, red, brown or what have you. There are several tribes in the area that are rich from the casinos they run, and the res is still inhabited with savaged souls....Could the thought or trouble of mainstreaming with America be that horrible?

Because the rez is "home" and it's hard to leave home, no matter how rough it is. I've visited the Crow, Northern Cheyenne, and Pine Ridge reservations. Pretty poor economy. But how do you pack up and leave if you've got no plan to go? And to leave the res is to leave your culture.

I have quite a bit of NA blood from various ancestors. Could only guess at the tribe (mostly Choctaw or Cherokee if I had to guess, based on physical features of my grandmother and ggrandmother.) They married to get out of poverty in the Indian Nation and didn't really brag on being NA, as it was not socially acceptable to be anything other than white back then. No roll numbers for the same reason.

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 1:35 pm

I am Lakota. I think in two languages which can be confussing. Have lived on the Rez for a bit. Not something that most folks would understand unless they have as well. My little brother is now further north (in S.D.) and working for an S.O. where he's the only Indian there. He's as good a cop as I ever was and is constantly being messed with by the white offices, but he keeps going in spite of it. Have family still on the Rez and get to talk to them once and a while. I've been gone many years and have lived in Texas in that time.

My uncle is only 10 years older than me, but his health is as bad or worse than mine. He's not going be around much longer....He was at the "second" Wounded Knee and fought the feds and others. He had asked where I was then as he told me he could have used my help. I said that the Army would have taken a dull view on my leaving to join him....he was ok with that...

So when someone starts about how gallant Custer was and all that, I simply remind them that he was the fool that thought he could whip us with a handfull of soldiers. My family, and others, rubbed him out back in 1876 as we were trying to defend our homes, families, and way of life....

I have enough white mixed in me that most don't pay attention to my appearance but some see it fast...never had too much trouble here in Texas, but up in the towns near the Rez, the whites saw it and gave me a lot of problems. When visiting some years back I was surrounded by about five of them and they were going to "take my hair" as they put it...I was still a peace officer in Texas (on vacation) and had my badge and weapon on me. When they were given the option of getting shot, they decided I wasn't worth that much trouble after all. Racial problems are there believe me....

Sure some tribes have casinos. Some get oil rights. Most live in poverty still, and who put us there? We were fine once and lived as we chose until herded together and put somewhere where we didn't want to live. The Black Hills are sacred but there's faces on them now. People drive by a man on the ground and if he's Lakota, they keep going. If he's white, they'll stop and help...I'm used to it, but doesn't mean I like it. I could go on, but I'll shut up now...

So next time you go by a reservation, think how they got there. It wasn't by choice....Take away your humanity and there's not much left is there?

Wade, off the soapbox.....

williamranks · Post by **williamranks** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 2:04 pm

I'm supposed to be part Kennebec. I don't put a lot of store in it since I come from a long line of liars.

If you want to pick up an idea of traditional Navajo culture try the Tony Hillerman novels about the tribal police. If you want to see some current reality try "Navajo Cops" on the Geographic Channel.

I'm not so sure it's an indian problem so much as a poor people problem. Come home after working a minimum wage job, if you have one at all, and watch ads on TV for things you will never be able to afford or watch some jerk in a situation comedy living in a million dollar condo with no money worries while your phone is being shut off for non-payment. It's enough to make anyone drink!

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:29 pm

Old Ranger,

I like what you had to say.

I'll always remember (around 1993) the little Indian girl who came up to me and asked me if I'd like to take her picture. Of course I knew money was involved (5 bucks) and gave her a quick 'sure.' A really cute little girl. This was in the Monument Valley area. After taking her picture I went into her and her mother's tent where they had things for sale. Had a short conversation with her mother and left.

As some of you know, John Wayne made a few movies in that area and I know for sure if he'd been there with me he'd gotten as much of a kick out it as I did.

I came back to ask what tribe this little girl and mother belonged to? Edit: (I found-out that Monument Valley is on Navajo land--so they were Navajo.)

Don

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:48 pm

Old Ranger,
For 59 1/2 years now I thought I was the only one who lived in two worlds.
A strange experience, isn't it?

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 3:52 pm

I was talking to an old flintlock rifle maker in Va a few years back and we got to talking about race. H was telling me he spent time out west and found that there were no blacks like he had known in the east. He did find out that there were Indians out west where he was, and found that the whites in the west treated the Indians like whites had treated blacks back east.

Nothing to be proud of I'm sure.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:01 pm

BlaineG wrote: I honestly can't understand why any human would want to stay on a gubment reservation.....be they white, black, red, brown or what have you. There are several tribes in the area that are rich from the casinos they run, and the res is still inhabited with savaged souls....Could the thought or trouble of mainstreaming with America be that horrible?

Would a fish think living out of water to be a difficult thing?

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:21 pm

Mescalero,

I hear ya brudda! I call my old beat up '92 blazer "My Rez Rocket" and people look at me like I'm not all there! It may be a hunk of junk here, but on the rez, it would blend in nicely! And since the A/C still works, even if the windows don't, it might even be one of the better rides around!

At times I wake up in my little house in the Texas woods and for a moment I think I'm still on the rez. Then I remember I had left. Two worlds is right!

Wade

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:30 pm

I had to go to jury duty one time.
The judge was asking the jury pool if they heard of someone who driving around in a vehicle with a screwdriver in the ignition, would they think poorly of it; everyone in the pool ( except me ) agreed they would.
The judge then singled me out and asked why I had not responded.
I said " Your honor , I come from the res. It would be more unusual to find one without a screwdrivwr in the ignition "

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:44 pm

What makes the transition from the Indian's traditional way of life to the white man's way of life so difficult? From what several have said here it must be very difficult and impossible for many. Could much of the problem be caused by having to change from a life style of hunter/gatherer and personal freedom to a life requiring being subject to the demands of a regular schedule and a boss?

There's no question many Indians have been able to make this transition while many have not.

Don

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 5:38 pm

Living on the rez IS like living in another world. I cannot explain it, but those that are there are far from being hunter/gathers unless you call being forced to hunt and gather from what is available from the goverment and other groups that "help" those on the reservation. Council meetings are often far more political than ony of those in city, state, or national levels. It is often the most corrupt that wins elections and they're backed by "people" that never lived on the rez, but are getting a sizable kick-back from grants and programs that the funds are to go to the people, but end up in the pockets of the "council offical" and some guy with a business in town who's ancestors spoke German or French!

If you CAN find a job, it's almost always off the rez, and then you need a car, or you carpool with another that works nearby and you help with the gas money as you can. You'll likely have to work more hours than the others there, and your pay will be lower than your white counterpart on the job. You'll hear your co-workers talking about you until they see that you're in range of their voices. Then the subject will change and you will get those side looks from them as the "have to get back to work" and you just walk on and deal with your job. If there is a lay off, you're the first to go, evn if there are twenty others with less seniority than you. Your co-workers will have parties both on and off the job. You're never invited, but you're expected to contribute money for the party at times though.

When you get home, you go inside and try to see what is availabe for supper. Your mother or, if you're older, wife will always feed you. If a friend, neighbor, or another arrives, you will ask them if they want to eat. Even if you, and your family gives up a bit off their plates. This is a Lakota thing. You show up to my door, I'll ask you if you want to eat. You might even have two pocket knives and your best friend doesn't. That afternoon you both have one a piece. It's a Lakota thing...

Yeah, some of my family got off the reservation. Most are still there. There is no free life style. You're confined to the land you're "allotted" by the government over a century ago if your lucky. Others live in the housing where the pre-fab houses were put up by sub-standard codes and material. You freeze in the winter. Sweat in the summer. If you don't "qualify" for one of those cardboard houses, you live in an abandoned car body if necessary. You do what you can.

Sure, I rose above it so to speak. I got an education, a career, and a retirement from the PD. But I still live on a little parcel of land away from the rest. I live in a small home and am alone with my few cats and dogs. I have no friends here. I still have to work to live. I may have moved off the land that the reservation is on, but I'm still on a rez...just further south. You may move away, but you never really leave. I send as much as I can afford to my family in S.D. and they tell me that I shouldn't, but say thanks anyway. That money is spread out among five households. It ain't much, but, hey, it's a Lakota thing. You see, I still live in two worlds as Mescalero spoke of. It's a wonderful life..........

Wade

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 6:50 pm

Charles wrote:
BlaineG wrote: I honestly can't understand why any human would want to stay on a gubment reservation.....be they white, black, red, brown or what have you. There are several tribes in the area that are rich from the casinos they run, and the res is still inhabited with savaged souls....Could the thought or trouble of mainstreaming with America be that horrible?
Would a fish think living out of water to be a difficult thing?

Charles, I'm comparing humans to humans.....not to fish.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:20 pm

jnyork wrote:I live on the edge of a large reservation and I can assure you those people in their "simple homes" as you term it are not happy and do not live a happy life, for the most part. Drug abuse and alcholism are rampant, unemployment is around 80 %, life expectancy is WAY lower than the US average, school dropout rate is horrendous, crime rate is also. Domestic violence and sexual abuse of children is common. Over half of births are to unmarried mothers. Those houses you see along the road are built entirely with your federal tax dollars, frequently they are trashed and unlivable within a couple of years, the residents pay only a token amount to live in them. The people are the victims of 6 generations of cradle-to-the-grave absolute socialism, with the goverment providing free medical care, housing, on and on, through the BIA. The social problems on the res would make most inner city problems look like a day in the park.

+1

Jerry knows I spent the majority of my 'yoot' there too. Shoshone/Arapaho 'res.

Did church work at Ft. Washakee and my dad did Housing for BIA/Sho-rap council(s).

The whole Sho-'rap thing is a government caused nightmare too, because the two tribes are ancestral enemies... so of course they get crammed together in the same jurisdiction... 'crips & Bloods living together with fewer guns and too much alcohol-related lack of motivation to engage in outright gang warfare...

Les Staley · Post by **Les Staley** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:27 pm

Another four years of Obama, and we'll ALL be on the Rez...

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:56 pm

One of my great grandmothers on my mother's side and my grandmother on my father's side were native American. One was Cherokee, the other Apache. My family name is German, and I live in Texas. I imagine my heritage to be typical of the area.

I will observe that by current standards they seemed to be poor. Maybe it was the times. Maybe they were uneducated. Maybe it's the current standards. Who can say? What I know is that they lived and I am here.

People with financial, political, or military advantage lording themselves over those without such influence is not a new thing in human history. Neither is it new that persons subjected to any sort of societal drudgery or abuse tend to blame someone else for their lot in life.

Truth in the interpretation of history and reasoning or justification for actions of the past flow up and down a sliding scale of truth, lies and imagination.

Not addressing anyone else's story but my own, going back or forward.

Life can be hard. It can be and has been a dog-eat-dog world. People make choices, and some folks need to learn how.

2ndovc · Post by **2ndovc** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:13 pm

My ex was Chippewa. Not to be triffled with. Smart, tough and beautiful but had a depression
she could not deal with. She disappeared one day and it was months before she told me where she was. I gave her six months to come home. Eight months later I filed for divorce.

We've both moved on but hardly a day goes by that I don't wonder what went wrong.

j

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:16 pm

Women are or can be funny. Not really meaning funny.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:36 pm

" A women's breast is the hardest surface on this earth, and leaves no trail I can follow "

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:02 pm

Old Ranger,
Thank you for sharing some of your experiences. I'm sure many painful memories exist down the road you have traveled.
We lived in the east before coming out west and were very surprised to find out that a lot of white folk look down upon the Native Americans because of being Native American

I can understand why many Native Americans hate white people because of what was done to them. The government actually attempted to "indoctrinate" the NA's by taking them and "schooling" them to learn the white ways, which included "forbidding them" to speak in their native tongues. Unbelievable, simply unbelievable.
May God Bless you and your family, my friend.

Old Ranger · Post by **Old Ranger** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:53 pm

Uncle Buck,

Thank you for the kind thoughs. I was raised to be open minded about things. Personally I don't hate anyone, but there are a few I've seen that resent just about anybody they see. Indian, white, black, or any others out there, doesn't have to be anyone of one background at all.....

25 years as a peace officer, I've seen people at their worst. Often just because they were in a situation that made them look so, but were nice folks just the same. Let's face it, you don't call an officer to your home to invite him in for coffee and watch the game on TV. You are often a victim of a crime, have problems with a neighbor, and the list goes on...so as a peace officer I was treated often with little or no respect by some, but more often than not, after a bit, I was able to help out and fix problems. Settle domestic disputes when able, and generally do something that made a difference. I have had 37 broken bones, two knife wounds and one gunshot wound that still causes me lots of problems due to the complications from that wound.

But I don't have any problems with folks at all. Shucks, with my hair being grey now I just look like an oldman with a tan!

Been in Texas long enough to speak like a native, and have adapted rather well I think.....but I still think of my family and how most are still stuck on the rez...I remember meeting the uncle of my great uncle. He lived to be 106...He was born in 1870 and was at the camp that Custer and the 7th Cav attacked. He watched his older relatives ride out to meet the invaders. Boys of 12 and 13 were among those that went to defend the people there. And there were many during WWII that lied about their age to go fight for this country. Many races and all Americians against a common enemy. I just wish that all Americians today had that same though of unity from those years...

Well, I could ramble on, but I gotta hit the sack. Gotta be at work in the morning and deal with making a buck or two. Got my eye on a new weapon and I'll need to save up for it too!

thanks,

Wade

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:13 pm

Mescalero wrote:" A women's breast is the hardest surface on this earth, and leaves no trail I can follow "

One of my favorite lines as well Mescalero. I think it was "I swear, a woman's breast is the hardest rock the Almighty created on this earth, and I can find no sign on it." Bear Claw Chris Lapp hit it right on the head.

White as a cracker here with no NA blood that I know of. But I did have the priviledge to grow up in Arizona and California around Native American folks. I went to grade school with one of Geronimo's great granddaughters in East Mesa. Always loved to learn about the cultures and even then in the 70's we got the chance to experience alot. Despite all the stuff one hears and sees , I have known no better people in my life than the Native Americans I lived around and served with.

I also agree that the Natives got a raw deal by treacherous folks at the top and have been murdered, exploited and not valued at all generally. There's no excuse for that and I pray they begin the turn around and reap this Country bounty to it's fullest. They are truly a National Treasure. I view history in a bit more of complex manner though when it comes to the evil europeans vs. native cultures.. There are two sides to a story and it is difficult to put yourselves in the mind of some of the early white settlers/farmers/longhunters etc. There was some truly savage and horrific things that were done to them early on as well and though the reaction was clearly very wrong(especially the long term solutions).....it's hard to put yourself in the shoes of the folks there at the time. Looking back now, we would have done things completely different(I hope), but it's hard to see clearly when your life and the life of your family is on the line. It pays to look at it all from multiple perspectives to get at "the way it was."

If anyone has not been to the Native American History Museum in Washington DC, it is definitely a must see. The collection of firearms belonging to Chiefs and others will raise the hair on the back of your neck. It seemed very well done and can't wait to get back.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:26 pm

Chris,
As always, a gentleman.
Thank you!

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:48 pm

2ndovc,
She had a different agenda.
Your lot in life is to accept that, and move on.
You have Blondie, you got the better part of the deal!

C. Cash · Post by **C. Cash** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:03 am

Mescalero wrote:Chris,
As always, a gentleman.
Thank you!

Proud to know you Mescalero and the folks here. I talk alot sometimes, but I listen as well. This has been an interesting thread.

Booger Bill · Post by **Booger Bill** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:09 am

In 1960 I was working on a huge fire near the hetch hatchy resivore near yosemite. We had close to 900 or a thousand redhots, apache and navahos on that fire. One indian was found drunk. I dont think he could speak english and I seen his boss or chief set him out on the highway to find his own way back to the res!

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:19 am

I was fortunate enough to attend a Pow-wow on Saturday, and watched the grand entrance and presentation of the flag, led by Lynn Schonchen of the Klamath Tribes. It was very moving for many reasons -- among them the common respect for the Creator, the reverence for veterans and the love of this country, wrong as her government policies have so often been. The host drummers were the Young Chiefs, from northern Nevada. These guys were awesome.
For a TWG (totally white guy) like me, the richness and variety of the material culture represented by the diverse tribal traditions present was a source of wonder. And the dancing! Some of the younger men were incredibly gifted and athletic, and then the younger dancers were so in the spirit of their people.
It is good to see first peoples gathered in love and respect and pride for their cultural traditions. But I could also see in many faces the harsh realities that many would go home to after the gathering.
What can be done? I don't know. I can pray on it, pray for healing, but God has heard the first peoples' cries of sorrow and felt their warm tears. Surely there is a special gift of mercy awaiting.

GonnePhishin · Post by **GonnePhishin** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:44 am

Bill in Oregon said

What can be done? I don't know. I can pray on it, pray for healing, but God has heard the first peoples' cries of sorrow and felt their warm tears. Surely there is a special gift of mercy awaiting.

I could not have said it better myself. 2+

This coming weekend the Native American Indian tribes will be having a Wacipi (WAH CHEE PEE) Powwow on campus, which I am really looking forward to attend and see the various dances, customs, etc.

DixieBoy · Post by **DixieBoy** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:40 am

In the early 1960's Dad moved the family out to Arizona for a year. I was in the 4th grade in school. We lived in a house in Scottsdale, and right behind the house was an alley, then a vacant lot, and then, what I remember to be a Pima Indian reservation. It took no time at all for us boys (me, my little brother, and one of my new friends) to crawl through the barbed wire fence into the vacant lot, past the tumbleweeds, and out onto the very edge of the reservation.

We were all full of Cowboys and Indians back then, and we had our little Daisy air rifles with us. No pellets or anything, just noise. I remember "attacking" the house closest to the fence a couple times. One time an Indian came out, and just the sight of him scared our little butts so much that we kicked up dust, running back home.

We were just kids then, but since those days, as an adult, I've thought about those times and it just makes me kinda cringe. I mean, after being pushed on to reservations, and all the other stuff that American Indians have had to deal with, here comes a bunch of wet nosed kids to shoot their air rifles at the house. It still makes me cringe.

On the up side, Dad bought a $ 2 watercolor, pastel looking painting from a Navajo one day, out in front of the Western Auto store. Dad loved Arizona, and everything about it. Took us to see and look at everything, lots of time in the countryside, not just tourist stuff, and that was where I learned to shoot from him. There wasn't any more "attacking" the rez after I'd handled a real firearm, even at age 10, I quickly figured that out.

And that auto parts store painting ? It's one of my most prized possessions now. Shows a hogan sitting back from an arroyo, and a little brush arbor to the side. Nice sunset fading in the background. But it's the fact that Dad thought to buy it (he NEVER bought "art") and bring it home, and obviously really liked it. And now that Dad's gone, I feel that this $ 2 painting of the southwest connects all of us in a way. That probably sounds corny, but that's me. - DixieBoy