Fast, or Slow?

[Blaine]

Do you like smaller calibers pushed to the max, or a larger one just loaded normal or a bit less? I think I tend to the bigger and slower school of thought. IOW, if you need the power, get a bigger gun. IE, my .44 mag loads are all about 1100fps regardless of bullet weight.

[AJMD429]

BOTH...!

Seriously, I tend to think the 'bowling ball' effect is something to be reckoned with; look at the penetration tests of .45-70 mid-range loads vs. .50 BMG...!

For me, the only reason to push any cartridge 'to the max' would be either they don't make a more powerful one (i.e. why load the .44 Mag to dangerous pressure levels - just get a .444 Marlin), OR if you really need a flat-shooting round for hunting where range estimates are not going to be that reliable. That 32 ft/sec/sec downward acceleration starts to get problematic way 'out there', or if your target is really small.

I guess my "Four Ruger Bolt Battery" illustrates my philosophy - between these four, any need I can think of is covered; .22 LR for small game/plinking, .44 Mag for medium game fairly close up, 6mm Rem for anything without fangs out farther, and .375 Ruger for stuff that will get mad and kill you if you shoot it.



...now if I can just come up with an equivalent 'Four Gun Levergun Battery'...

[Grizz]

Yeah I'm on that page but I see the reason little tiny bullets need to go as fast as they can. It's so they won't bounce off the flannel shirt. Heh.

Seriously, did you see the long distance .22 LR penetration stuff? Those things are scary about how they work.

OTOH my favorite 7mm Win Mag load stopped inside a deer. I replaced that gun as quick as I could. Bullet is still in desk drawer just to remind me.

[Pitchy]

Most my shootin is whith the 45-70 and 44 mag.

[FWiedner]

I'm kinda likin' medium bore cruisers right now. .356 and .358Win specifically.

Other than my personal favorites, I'd say use the right tool for the job at hand.

Why use a plier when you've got a perfectly good wrench that fits? One will do the job but make a mess, and the other will do the job and leave it neat.

Maybe theres an unspoken addage about using little fast things for little fast things and big slow things for big slow things.

The only real consideration is whether what you've got is all you've got. If that's case, you gonna do what you gotta do.

[yooper2]

Heavy and slow is the way to go for me. They work reliably all the time. With the needle-guns shooting at high velocity you are counting on bullet construction for effectiveness on game. With a heavy slow bullet it just plugs right along. Even if you have a cast hollow point break up there is enough mass and momentum remaining to get the job done. Also, I don't like bloodshot meat and the guns I prefer come in cartridges that are generally of the slow heavy type.

All that being said, just about anything will work with proper shot placement so whatever floats your boat.

Eric

[madman4570]

Used to be medium sized and fast fast.
I was so hung up on ballistics/energy tables etc.

I have changed a lot with much more respect on a bigger slower stuff.
Really have grown to love the 45-70/.45 Colt/.35 Remington etc.

Will say though deer hunting I still grab the 7MM Rem Mag(that gun has killed EVERYTHING I have ever shot with it like a 1000lb hammer.(I do love that caliber)just am amazed what it does and how little it kicks.

In the handgun arena am tending to go the big and fairly slow route.

But I do like each for different things.

Kinda like in the 70's when I had my Kawasaki 900 Z1 used to laugh at the Harley's (now I love Harley's)

[Griff]

7mm Win Mag

I'm of the school that sez little bitty bullets need velocity... good ol' big'uns like me... don't!

[jnyork]

To me the accuracy is more important than the velocity or the bullet weight. An elk cant tell the difference of 100 fps and neither can a prairie dog.

[madman4570]

Think Grizz meant 7MM Rem Mag

Here is the deal with that caliber(my little wife shoots it, and likes it) 139gr @3250 and she likes it ???
At 500yds(sighted@200yds)---32.0 inches low and still going 2300fps and no kick to really speak of.
That's gotta be a keeper.
Hand her my 30-06 with medium 150gr loads(she hates its kick)

[Blaine]

218 Bee
.284
30wcf
30-06
.375 Winchester
405
.44mag
.444
45-70

There is also a .358 in a 336 that I might, someday, under load and hunt with....I just don't thing the 336 was made for that.

Those are the long gun calibers..(all levers except the '06 )....Nothing that screams Uber Mag.....Just some rock solid hitters.

[Mescalero]

I go both ways, they both have thier purpose; matching them is the trick.

[Old Savage]

In my limited experience which is with light deer and antelope - light fast is more deadly. There is some heart engaging quality about the 45-70 and could be also with the 444 and I have to admit with the 25-35.

[Grizz]

7mm Win Mag

ooops.... good catch

point is the same tho. I got that one 'cause I met a guy who wintered in the Brooks Range and he harvested caribou from the migration after the wx was freezing 24/7 so his meat would not spoil in the cache. shot them 5 hundred yards off so he didn't spook the herd with a 7mm Rem Mag.

I didn't know that it isn't a great deer gun in SE Alaska where the average shot might be under 40 yards. Well it's an OK deer gun, but it is a lousy pick for a deer gun slash bear attack stopper.


Grizz

[Bronco]

Howdy,

Depends on the application! Ground squirrels, prarie dogs, yotes and such, love the small sizzeling speed for the aerobatics. Have had an 06 since I was 13 and love it for the reach on deer and like. But then again for things bigger or with teeth and claws or hoves and horns that look to me as something to eat or smear into the ground love the 45-70's and the 50-110"s.

John

[Borregos]

Big and slow is the way I go

[86er]

There are 3 things I consider when determining what velocity I need: The bullet, the range and the size of the animal. In the first case, the bullet has to go at least Xfps - Xfps to work properly. Therefore, the MV has to be enough to get you the Xfps you need on impact for the bullet to work right. That leads to the next thing - range. You need to know what the average opportunity will be in terms of yards, and what the maximum distance you are willing to shoot at said animal will be. This will determine a bullet type, weight and velocity you need to get the trajectory to carry you to your maximum range. Revisiting item one again, the bullet has to work at that maximum range. The last item - size of animal - rounds out the whole concept. How much penetration is needed to get to the vitals at the maximum range you are going to shoot with whatever shot presentation you will be willing to take? Again, this determines what item one (bullet) needs to be.

My example would be my 35 Whelen. It is primarily an elk rifle but that is only one trip per year, so I try to use it for an exotic hunt on the larger stuff. This rifle is also a serious consideration for a bear hunt or South African plains game. For practice and preparation, it can be used on hogs and deer. My bullet of choice is the 250 gr Nosler Partition. The range where elk opportunities may come is quite far where I hunt, but I cut it off at 300 yards (however with perfect conditions and the end of the hunt near I might shoot 400 yds (which I am capable of with my skill and this rifle/cartridge). In order to get the energy and long range stability the 250 gr stands out. In order to get the trajectory for a 300 yd hold AND to get the penetration with expansion I need to achieve 2600 fps MV. At much closer range, or on smaller animals, the higher velocity still causes frontal expansion even on light weight TX deer. So while my bullet choice is a middle weight (I could have used 180, 200, 225, 250, 275, 295 or 310 grains) the velocity for that weight in this caliber is a bit fast (where factory loads would be 2440 fps).

Another example is my 45-70 (1886). I use the 405 grain Kodiak @ 2000 fps because it always expands quite a bit but retains most of its weight whether it is used on 150 pound or 1500 pound animals and whether the range is 50 yards or 200 yards (my personal maximum for this load). The bullets have been recovered about 1/3 of the time and they have ranged from .780 -.996" diameter with weight from 340-397 grains. When I slow this down to 1800 fps I get much less expansion on the smaller/closer stuff and fewer exits on the larger game. Now with the 430 grain PUNCH bullet the only reason I'd be using it is for penetration. I've tried them at 1450 fps, 1550 fps, 1650 fps and 1750 fps. At the range I would use this load (no more than 100 yards and likely half of that) it actually penetrates deeper at 1750 fps than when it is slower. There is also a much more visible impact to large animals.

Now my 308 Win shoots just a 165 grain @ 2550 fps MV. It is neither heavy for the caliber nor fast for that weight in that caliber. That is a good reliable bullet under all the circumstances I use it for and it works best at 2550 fps MV.

I want a 45 ACP with 230gr Golden Sabers to get 800fps MV minimum. These bullets work best with an impact velocity of greater than 725 fps. Well, ya gotta start faster than that if the impact is going to be above that.

I guess the point is, for me I don't care what weight or velocity within a caliber as far as trying to be within a certain ballistic category ( heavy and slow/ light and fast). What matters is that my chosen bullet is going the right speed to get the job done under the conditions I expect it to work.

[jeepnik]

I'm mostly a big, slow bullet guy. I prefer things .40 caliber and above. I will go to .30 cal for things like 30-06 and .308. Anything smaller is a varmit cartridge and I only own one, and it was a gift from my boys. Oops, forgot the .243 win I got as a kid, but it sorta just sits these days, gotta do something about that.

[meanc]

For hunting loads, 90% of my reloadiing, I load as fast as safety/accuracy permits

If I ever want a nice and easy shooting session I just grab my 22s.

[tman]

I'm kinda likin' medium bore cruisers right now. .356 and .358Win specifically.

Other than my personal favorites, I'd say use the right tool for the job at hand.

Why use a plier when you've got a perfectly good wrench that fits? One will do the job but make a mess, and the other will do the job and leave it neat.

Maybe theres an unspoken addage about using little fast things for little fast things and big slow things for big slow things.

The only real consideration is whether what you've got is all you've got. If that's case, you gonna do what you gotta do.

Excellent choices! 356WCF in a 94 is the ultimate medium range/brush gun for ALL North American game

[Sixgun]

Neither, although both have their applications. 223/45-70 I believe the best of calibers are the 40's. This is for all around shooting, not just blasting down a grizz (which I'll never do anyway)

My favorite pistol cartridge levergun is the 38-40 and for rifle, its the 40-65 with the 38-55 bringing a close second.

I'm too tired to analyze this all right now. I'm hittin' the sack.---me

[El Chivo]

35 cal is my favorite, I shoot a lot of .357 and some 35 Rem. I shoot 30-30 too but have never really taken to it. When I do, after the first couple of shots I think "darn it, small holes".

I also have a .243 which I hunt with but haven't shot beyond sighting in. I figure with that trajectory I can hold dead-on whatever the distance, not much challenge to it. I'm sure I wouldn't enjoy target shooting with it; even smaller holes, big noise, and frozen rope trajectory.

[COSteve]

Big and Slow vs Small and Fast is only part of the question. I agree with 86er that the game and hunting conditions will help dictate what's 'best'. Long range, open country hunting as typical in the many parts of the west favors longer barreled, scoped rifles in long range, lighter calibers and high velocities whereas the brushy, short range hunting as typical in many parts of the east favors shorter barreled, open sighted carbines may favor shorter range, heavier calibers and slower velocities. One has to assess the conditions and pick a rifle that suits the needs of the situation. That's our excuse for 'needing' some many different guns; we have to pick one tailored for the situation.

[Canuck Bob]

For my hunting field, mixed game Canadian bush, my choice would be my 444. Interesting though for this discussion is that I lean to the small and fast end of the big bore spectrum. For awhile I was seduced by the big bullet 444 loads popular today. Then I realized, for me, that a 265 44 cal bullet at 2400 fps is all I need. My old 444 265 grain Hornady loads drop big moose like a hammer all the way to 200 paces. So I bought a used 280 gr WFN mold to try the wide meplat cast designs and would like to find some 280 grain Swift A-Frames to get a partition. My stock pile of hot 265 grain 444 moose loads kick like an angry mule. They are wimpy compared to many 45-70 guide gun loads I read about!

I am also working on some 30 cal size rifles, I don't like anything smaller for big game including deer. In them I always feel a bit handicapped at anything under 200 grains. I'm working on a 215 gr load for my 303 and would lke a 190 grainer for my 32 Special. At heart I am a big bore lever gunner. I tried the 243 for deer and 7MM mag for moose years ago and have no desire to wander down that trail again. So, for the mid sized calibers give me heavy and slow every time.

[Grizz]

Bob, your 444 load is a recipe for recoil and is far more punishing to shoot than my 525 gr 45/70 load. Even a 425 gr at 1900 won't hurt as much as your 444. Those things are mean.

Your bullet at half that velocity will be just as lethal to a point, like probably a 100 yards. Only reason for hyper velocity is to reach way out there.

Grizz

[AJMD429]

That's our excuse for 'needing' some many different guns; we have to pick one tailored for the situation.

That's right - as I was telling my wife the other day, there is pretty solid evidence that even the species of trees in a given area can have a profound effect on ballistics - so much so that even in one hunting spot, the south-facing hills may have different trees than the north facing ones, requiring a totally different firearm and cartridge be used. That's not even taking into account whether there is a body of water nearby...! Then of course even if you have guns for all those situations, there's the whole Coriolus effect to consider...

I tell her not to worry about all that, though - I'll take care of it. . .

[Canuck Bob]

Bob, your 444 load is a recipe for recoil and is far more punishing to shoot than my 525 gr 45/70 load. Even a 425 gr at 1900 won't hurt as much as your 444. Those things are mean.

Your bullet at half that velocity will be just as lethal to a point, like probably a 100 yards. Only reason for hyper velocity is to reach way out there.

Grizz

You are right on the money Grizz. My thread was when I hunted the foothills and the east slope of the Rockies, range was important. I've been educated for the future. I am loading up some fresh stuff with my remaining 265 H bullets. I plan the cast around 1600 for fun with the jacketed, I got a stash to burn up, stout but dialed back a bit as range isn't a factor, 50 paces is my concern while camping. In my youth I enjoyed recoil, times have changed.

I am surprised to hear your 45-70 load kicks less. I just assumed it would be harder. A 525 gr slug must have some serious authority and outstanfding penetration.

[Grizz]

It kicks less because it's loaded down to abt 1440 or so from the guide gun, about 1300 from Blaine's 10" BFR, and 15xx from Blaine's cowboy. Penetrates 12 gallon jugs of water. Something I haven't seen a 444 do. Something a 425 gr at 1900 won't do. Blaine saw those tests, he can tell us if I misremembered something.

Easily rings 100 yard gongs from the 18-1/2" barrel. Recoil is about like a 12 ga 2-3/4" load.

I think your 265 gr running at 44 mag type velocities would be very comfortable to shoot, lethal at "carbine" ranges, and a fun plinker. White box 240 jfp from a Marlin carbine is a perfect meat gun in SE Alaska. My son's made a lot of venison.

I'm interested to hear what you come up with and how it works out for ya.

Grizz

[Canuck Bob]

Grizz, I have been studying Veral Smith's system of wide big bore meplat bullets at 1400-1600 fps. He claims it to be a better killer than when pushed faster. He is an interesting character but I have read many reports from handgun shooters who have to live in this fps range and they report outstanding results. I'm just starting to muzzle load but again experienced patched ball shooters report good results that folks like me have a hard time accepting. It is still hard to rethink that higher velocity hits harder.

I read a doctor on Veral's forum who claimed that massive trauma doesn't bleed like medium trauma. Something to do with a mammal trait. He felt that a deep reasonable wound track in soft tissue would cause instant blood pressure loss. His idea was massive trauma like caused by hydrostatic severe expansion caused a natural reaction to stop blood flow for a short time.

Those with African hunting experience might have opinions because big heavy solids and SN are often used in similar hunts. The PH's sure seem to like the big doubles on the vids I like to search.

Having only one hunter's experience I have no idea about such matters and not enough knowledge to debate either way. I do know my experience past 150 paces with the 444 suggests it kills well even when it has lost significant velocity. It didn't seem to matter if it was 50 paces or 175 paces the terminal performance was similar, effective indeed. Now I wonder if the long ranges held expansion in check creating a wide meplat bullet at moderate velocity rather than the traditional very large expanding mushroom from higher velocities. I grew to expect double blood trails. I used a high heart hold and avoided the shoulder on raking shots.

[damienph]

I load over 30 different "calibers" from .22 Hornet to .45-70 but I guess if I had to say a favorite it would be .30 cal at moderate velocities. Although I do tend to prefer heavy for caliber when I can get it. 30M1 (Blackhawk & carbine), 30 Herrett, 30-30 (4), 32WS, 303Brit, 7.65Arg and my hands down favorite 30-06. There is nothing that I will ever have the opportunity to hunt that can't be cleanly taken with a 180gr 30-06 at 2700 - 2800fps.