A can of worms for you: Is a 30-06 fine, too?

[Panzercat]

I'm considering a precision bolt action rifle in my future and am still on the short end of the learning curve when it comes to the ideal caliber for this application. What's worse is that everybody has their own opinion on what that caliber should be so I'll ask the forum I trust on the matter.

This is for long range work, 1000+ yards in a .300ish caliber. Originally I had considered 7mm mag, but the margins between it and a 30-06 a slim once you start pushing heavier bullet weights for the aught-six as I've read. On the other hand, there is the crowd that insist that the 30-06 is the antiquated cartridge and advocate in favor of the .308, even though the only real advantage I can see is in cartridge size/design. All that means to me is more powder room like a 45-70 to scale upwards in performance? I know this conversation could go half a dozen ways... skill of the shooter, platform being used, etc etc. I'm just looking at the caliber for now. Also important is the ability to actually find the caliber discussed easily, so I want to stay away from kryptonite tipped [obscure caliber here] bullets. Go easy on me in that regard unless you think there's a super compelling case for it.

At the moment I'm looking at a 30-06 based rifle. Any reason I should be looking elsewhere?
And don't worry, I'll spam something concerning an actual levergun once I get my next few orders in the mail

[Rusty]

Not my cup of tea because 1,000 yds is too far for me but for those that do the .300 Win Mag is the most popular. A better choice might be the .338 Lapua even though it's not a .30 cal.

[geobru]

The 30-06 is a fine cartridge. You can load it up or down, with bullets from 110 to 220 grains. It is easy to find factory ammo for it almost anywhere there is a sporting good store, and chances are good that someone in camp will have ammo if you need it.

My first rifle was a Remington model 721 in 30-06. I shot my first deer with it, and still have it. It took a back seat to my BLR 308 when I bought that rifle in 1977, not because it isn't a good rifle, I just preferred the lever action for hunting.

This is in fact one of those questions that everyone has an opinion on, but for an all around hunting gun in North America, it stands tall among the giants. IIRC, the ballistics tables show that it has slightly better ballistics than a 308. There are certainly smaller diameter bullets that have better ballistics, but for a 30 caliber, you can't go wrong. given the criteria you defined.

[Mescalero]

If you are fixated in .30 caliber, you are alreadyt lost.
Good luck.

[FWiedner]

A few years ago I had the urge to build myself a longer range tack-driver. I chose the .30-06 over the .308.

When I was looking over the performance characteristics of either cartridge, the .30-06 stepped out in every category that interested me.

I built a dandy rifle using a Savage 110FP as the basic platform.

[samb]

The 30-06 works for me.

[horsesoldier03]

If you are fixated in .30 caliber, you are alreadyt lost.
Good luck.

+1 on Mescalero's comment!

You didnt state what you need a 1000 yrd rifle for. IMO, if I wanted something that would shoot that far, I think I would go for a Barrett .50 cal. There again, application is a big factor as well as how deep your pockets are! For me, I see a .30-06 as a 400-600 yrd rifle MAX!

[tman]

Advantage of the .308WCF is a shorter action and does better in a shorter barrell. For your application, the ancient , ineffective, 30-06 should do just fine

[guido4198]

If you are fixated in .30 caliber, you are alreadyt lost.
Good luck.

Like he said.
I'm a HUGE fan of the 30/06..have several and have enjoyed a WIDE variety of shooting options with them..hunting, target, etc.
That said...for anything over about 600 yds, it's NOT the best choice. If you are just trying to see what you can do with an '06 @ 1000, understanding going in, that you're purposely handicapping yourself.....enjoy. If on the other hand you actually want to achieve the best possible results @ 1000....there are LOTS of better options.
Personnally, I'd be calling Ronnie Barrett to learn more about the "416 Barrett". The BC on that oughta keep it flyin' forever..!!

[Mainehunter]

I think in general the 30 caliber what ever you choose either the 30-06, 308, 300 Mag, etc,etc,.. is a good choice for long range work. I have a custom built 30-06 that is very accurate and I have shot it way past 700 yards with no problems. Even though the 30-06 is the do-all cartridge it has it's limits. A good friend of mine shoots competitively at long range and his cartridge of choice is the 6.5-284 and when we go out to his range and if were shooting out to 1000 yards, my 300 H&H gets the call. Call me old but I love the underdog!

Mainehunter

[gundownunder]

A long shot for me is 200 yds for the CLAS rams so I'm not into extreme long range, but it seems to me that lately most of the attention in that field is on the 6.5 caliber. I believe that the current long range sniper record is also held by a 6.5 cal. The 6.5 x 47 Lapua and 6.5 Creedmore seem to be top contenders with heavy, ballistically superior bullets. To get the same long range ballistics with a 30-06 is going to require a heavy bullet to match the BC and big helpings of powder to match velocity (if that's possible) with a very unpleasant amount of recoil as a result.
What is the attraction for 1000 yards? is it competition or just fun? The only 1000 yd comp I've ever heard of is military rifle and I would think the 6.5 x 55 Mauser would be a lot more fun and more accurate at that than the 30-06 Springfield would be.

[86er]

Shot a Gunwerks 7mm Rem Mag on 1200 yd range. MOA accurate w 180 and 190 Berger bullets!

[Cliff]

A 30-06 is a pretty much do it all cartridge. The platform rifle is the big thing. I like the 30-06 as it likes cast bullets, light bullets, heavy bullets. There is tons of information on what it likes. It has been around now for over a century and has been experimented with to just about no end. It is usually available in just about any part of the country. If you have a proper rifle, blue printed, bedded right, good length barrel and a bolt action you are good for most everything. Practice and more practice will make you effective to 1000 yards, of course it may have some limitations, but most can be overcome with research and knowledge. Good choice cartridge. ATB

[Malamute]

Here's an interesting series of articles about long range shooting. Don't get tuned out with the cost of gear in the first page, there's some good info about the topic.

http://demigodllc.com/articles/practica ... equipment/

[Thunder50]

Go to 6mmBR.com. There are a lot of 1000yd+ shooters there and they will tell you what works and what doesn't

[madman4570]

Based on what you stated (no way in heck you 30-06 will REMOTELY come close to a 7MM Mag)speaking trajectory wise/velocity/energy etc.(unless you MUST have something OVER what a 7MM shoots)
Is this for Target/Medium game/monster game????
After 400 yards the 165gr starts kicking it behind.(least what I have seen)
I have the 7MM Mag and 300 Win Mag in the same Model gun and when sighted in at only 200yds shooting even 600yds it is vastly apparent.(165gr Gameking 7MM vs 168gr Gameking .300 mag)At least in my findings???????
Both were hot loads.
I actually noticed the 7MM did better in cross wind.
If you are going hunt big bear get a .300 Win Mag if you want to get serious on 1000+ yard shooting get a 7MM and heck make it a 7MM STW if you want about as good as it gets without getting (really crazy)

If with the 7MM you want to get real crazy(load up some Berger 180gr (pointed Meplat)VLD bullets even at a modest 2800fps
Plus every time you pull the trigger it won't (whack you)

[Lefty Dude]

I had at one time, some 20 years ago a fine 30 cal long range Rifle. It was a wildcat 30-338.
A 338 mag necked down to 30 cal, or 7mm Mag necked up. This case has a longer neck than a 300 win-mag and stabalizes the heavier bullets better than a 300 WM.
Years ago it was the caliber of choice for the long-range bench rest shooters. The piece I had was a Sears 30 -06 Ted Williams,(made in belgium by FN) that was re chambered & the bolt face opened up for the mag head.

RCBS makes the dies, and brass is always available. Loading data is also published.

If your need is a 1000 yard Rifle, this is your best all-around choice.

[madman4570]

All I can say is when you get a 30-06/.300 mag normal commercial loaded cartridge with a bullet of at least 150gr(big enough ??) that when sighted in at 200yds and when it reaches 500 yds is still under 30 inches (let me know)like the 7MM does ???????
And as we go beyond that distance that 30cal start its way to the dirt even worse.

Like I said---(I got a 300 Mag)-------------aint is good as the 7MM though


Where is that pot??? I need to stir it again???

But hey, dude get what floats your boat(I am only one yahoo)and not that bright either
Just saying if I had to whack a threat at 1200yds(would grab my 7MM and let my .300 sit home)
I guess you could get a .30/.378 though ??

Opinions objected---valued and respected !

You need to read this---------

http://www.angelfire.com/art/enchanter/mag7.html

[Old Ranger]

Panzercat,

With all the "Gee-whiz" cartridges comming out these days, I can see where one can get a fuzzy view of what is established as a good round....Now I'm an old guy. I like old stuff. But I will say this and then the rest can say what they want too....

I carried an old Win M70 in .30'06 in S.E. Asia for two tours. NVA Col's were my prime target. My best shooting was with the '06. Some shots out to 800 meters or better. Had a tricked out (for the time) M14 with a NM barrel and the whole works. It couldn't match the '06 in range, accuracy, and long range punch.

Just a little over a week ago I traded for a still new on the shelf 2009 Marlin XL7C in .30'06 and thus far with a decent scope, I'm putting them all in the same hole at 100 yds. Taged a hog at 180 yds and never even broke a sweat doing it. And I'm just getting it broke in! Imagine what it can do once the bore is smoothed out and I find a load that makes it sing. This one is a REAL Marlin with the JM proofmark and all. Now if I can take a stock standard $400 bolt gun, slap a moderate priced scope on it and shoot my handloads this well, think what you can do with a more precise weapon with a better glass and your younger eyes...

Though some think the '06 is an antique load, they are missing the point. The .30'06 is one of the most balanced cartridges I've ever seen. Not too happy with very light bullets, but take a 168 HPBT match bullet. Load it to your rifle's taste. Then go shoot stuff that is way out there and hit it every thime...In my opinion of real world use of this round I can safely say that the .30'06 never let me down. Always did just what was expected everytime. Can shoot nearly anything well starting from a 125 gr varmit load to 220 gr moose and bear loads and ANYTHING in between.....can the other rounds do that as well? Don't think so.

Go get ya an "06 and have some fun with it....You won't regret it.......
The .30'06 ain't old. It's just comming into it's prime!

Wade

[Charles]

I have been a lifelong fan of the 30-06 round and I have quite a number of them. But, if I was going to build or buy a rifle dedicated to 1,000 yard shooting, I would not choose the 30-06. There are a number of rounds that perform better at that extended distance.

[TedH]

Nuthin wrong with the 30-06 for a hunting rifle, but it wouldn't be my choice for long range target work. Too many better choices out there.

[Canuck Bob]

The more experienced can educate you better but one consideration is barrel and specifically throat life. My understanding is that smaller bore and higher powder capacity shorter life. I'm amazingly cheap too. 30-06 45-50 grains of powder, 300 Win Mag 70-75 grains, 338 Lapau 85-100 grains, 50 BMG 250 grains! 30 cal is an excellent option for bullet choice (much better chance of finding an affordable bullet) and the 30-06 shines for economy and a good relationship for heavy bullets and powder capacity. This is the reason I would choose the 30-06 over the 308 for a 1000 yards.

Please don't take this wrong but you may be biting more than you can chew. 1000 yard shooting is easy if you are a trained Marine Sniper, most of us aren't. A guy is talking the precision of the finest bench rest rifle and the power of a grizzly cartridge. I would burn out two barrels just trying to hit a sheet of plywood! You can put together or maybe pick up off the shelf a dandy 500 meter rifle to start your education. Then I would recommend the 308 as precision tooling and components are accessible but keep your credit card handy.

http://www.6mmbr.com/index.html Here's a dandy precision shooting site with info on long range target rifles and competition.

[Panzercat]

If you are fixated in .30 caliber, you are alreadyt lost.
Good luck.

Ouch :p
But that said, I'll at least tell you why I'm going in that direction. First I started at the 7mm Mag,reading up on it.

Remington Magnum is especially popular for Western plains use in the United States, as well as for use on plains game in Africa, where longer reach than commonly achieved with the .30-06 are most often needed. It has also been chambered in sniper rifles as the US Secret Service counter-sniper team has deployed this cartridge in urban areas, and its use out to 1,000 yards has been commonly demonstrated in competition. Popular web gun author Chuck Hawks calls the 7mm Rem "one of the great all-around rifle cartridges."

Hmm, the 7mm sounded like good stuff! But unlike your assertion, there are appear to be plenty of people not lost in .30 land. The mention of the 30-06 led me to google 7mm mag vs 30-06, primarily because I know for a fact that the 30-06 is available everywhere and inferred is being used for the same application as the 7mm, per the previous wiki article. This forum thread was especially helpful. It goes back and forth a lot, but thae main thing that jumped out wasonce the conversation hit this:

Note that a 180gr. bullet in the .30-06 has near identical ballistics to a 175gr. bullet in the 7mm Mag. Draw your own conclusions.

The thread battles back and forth from there, but I'm now thinking if you can equal a 7mm's ballistics with little more than a heavier bullet, why not go with the easier to find caliber? Of course, then there's the argument for .308 but the only advantage I see to it is that its a more compact cartridge while insisting that 30-06 was antiquated and not as availible (on that last part I had to scratch my head). You still have more payload variety in a 30-06 up or down the scale like a 45-70. Again, why not go with the avenue that gives me more options?

And lastly, it appears that a modest number of the longest range sniper shots have been in the .30 class (.338 specifically), directly contradicting the fact that it's a lost caliber cause

So that's how I arrived at the 30-06. If you've got a better idea, smack me upside the head with it, but tell me why. Im not that guy who doesn't do at least a little homework before posing his questions. I just have no real worl experience in the calibers posed here and my biggest gun to date is a 30-30, thus my question of those who have.

And trust me, I'm well aware I'm not a trained sniper. It's a goal to aspire to more than anything else... Like that 300 bowling game ^.^

[Old Savage]

30-06 is a great cartridge and at least for me the three I have had have all been all been more accurate than comparable 308s I have owned.

[Mescalero]

In this thread Mainehunter offered up some good advice in the form of his long range shooting friend.
In another thread 6pt sika has come to the proper conclusion as well.
When I built my long range rifle I started with a Remington stock 30-06 and changed the caliber among other things.
Charles responded as well, and his opinion is well respected by myself amd others.
It sounds as if you are in the planning stage, so try this.
Obtain a complete definition of ballistic co efficent, and read it with an open mind.
I have forgotten the author, but these guys here will come up with it, buy a book named
" The Flight of the Bullet " it is very informative.

[flatnose]

Look into and study bullet B.C.
You will then see why the 6.5 calibers are so popular. T acheive the BC's of the 6.5mm, you would need heavier/longer bullets in the 30 calibers. Also need more powder. All this leads to more recoil, making the gun harder to handle. This is why the 222 remington, 6mm benchrest etc were so popular for the shorter ranges.
I would opt for the 6.5-284 as the first choice. 6.5x57 in the right action would be second. the 7mm rem magnum maybe third, and the plain old 308 winchester would just about do what you want.
You are not going to buy over the counter ammo for 1000yd shooting, so if you are going to reload, go with a 6.5 caliber.

[Blaine]

I don't shoot long range. If I did: 338 Laupua....

[madman4570]

If you are fixated in .30 caliber, you are alreadyt lost.
Good luck.

Note that a 180gr. bullet in the .30-06 has near identical ballistics to a 175gr. bullet in the 7mm Mag. Draw your own conclusions.

I'm not a trained sniper. It's a goal to aspire to more than anything else... Like that 300 bowling game ^.^

Here is the problem with the 30-06 with that comparison(175gr vs 180gr thing)with the 30-06 you are LUCKY to achieve 2800fps
where as the 7MM's can achieve much faster speed. That extra makes huge difference when that distance is factored.
To be more far would be .300 Win Mag vs 7MM Rem Mag/ .300 Weatherby Mag vs 7MM Weatherby Mag etc.

The 7MM Remington Ultra Mag would be ideal as well. (2800fps vs 3100fps)for WHAT YOU WANT is ALOT.


Also, I know FOR A FACT(close to home????)that in SE Asia(1968/1969)for sniper work (Army Rangers) the Remington 700 in 6MM Rem was a prime choice.

Actually, for general sniper work by (special ops) law enforcement(round here)they use 22-250 in a Remington 700

[hightime]

I'll bet he meant 100 yrds. + not a thousand. Are there actually hunters that that shoot at deer at a thousand? I shoot targets at that range with a 45-110, but I know the yardage exactly.

Owen

[AJMD429]

Not my cup of tea because 1,000 yds is too far for me but for those that do the .300 Win Mag is the most popular. A better choice might be the .338 Lapua even though it's not a .30 cal.

I'd agree with that, based on my reading on the issue (not real-world experience, so it's worth half the price of a cheap cup of coffee). I also agree with the 6mm Remington and .22-250 being awesome at more common ranges out to 300 yards or so.

Zel makes an 'upper' (single-shot bolt action) for an AR-15 lower, that is available in .338 Lapua for a very reasonable price; otherwise you have to have an extra-long action for it. I always wondered if a Ruger No. 1 could be made into a .338 Lapua, but they aren't famous for their accuracy, and if I were going to spend that kind of money, I'd want great accuracy, rather than just ok accuracy (even though a paintball gun can usually outshoot my skill level unless it's a really good day for me).

[flatnose]

http://www.accurateshooter.com/gear-rev ... lletguide/
Try this. Lots of good info.

[rjohns94]

Having competed in long range matches out to a thousand yards, .308 is preferred at that distance only because of the platforms that use it. 30-06 is better than .308. Neither are anywhere near as good as the .338 lapua. That is the current cartridge for long range sniping in that .30 something niche. Still not the best at 1000 yards but pretty darn good and is. Better cartridge than many are shooters. Shooting accurately at those distances takes lots of practice. With that said, 30-06 is a lot cheaper than .338 or 50bmg. I would go with the 338 and be happy ever after

[Mescalero]

Be interesting to see if the seed can germinate.
Thanks for the link flatnose.
Need it for my 6.5-06.

[Old Savage]

I always look to the best 300 yd rifle because I have actually shot stuff in that bracket.

[madman4570]

Another thing I will admit, I am biased towards the 7MM so my viewpoint might tend to be scued.
Like some of the other guys said----If you are really serious on the 1000yd stuff (the .338)is the ticket.

But that said for a just good ole hunting/reasonable target shooting the 30-06 is a very fine cartridge.Has been and expect always will be. And though maybe not as good as some(you might just do well with that cartridge)?

Whatever you get/let us know and keep us up to date. Good Luck

[Dewight]

You can check out German Salazar's site, http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/ ... index.html he completes with 30-06's. He has a lot of good articles there.

[Panzercat]

You can check out German Salazar's site, http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/ ... index.html he completes with 30-06's. He has a lot of good articles there.

The depth of real world competitive shooting experience on that site is darn near epic, as are the experience related here by Old Soldier and others. Much as people are going to hate me, I'm really not seeing the bad in a 30-06 setup for the mission. Platforms are plentiful, ammunition grows on trees, it won't kill the barrel like the faster stuff and is extremely flexible in payload. That's not to say the other calibers aren't good medicine, but a its game of give and take; there's a lot of give in the 30-06 apparently.

And regardless of your caliber affiliation, thanks for keeping this real. Another forum (or two) I can think of wouldn't have been able to.

And now to throw salt on the proverbial wound. I purposely saved this until the useful portion of the conversation was out of the way because if the caliber didn't send things off the rails, the platform that I'm looking at would have I'll preface this by saying, yes I know that 1000 yard accuracy requires an investment in time and money... Something that a Mossberg 4x4 is not. But it is a starter rifle and seems to be a somewhat decent one out of the box at an economical price, which is even better. At least until i find something better and equally economical

Thanks again, peeps. You didn't disappoint.

[M. M. Wright]

The 6.5-06 AI looks really good to me. Bought out the shop of a deceased 'smith from Alaska some years ago and in the stuff were a couple hundred of the above, some loaded, some brass and the dies. Looks so good that I still have them and if I were younger I would build a rifle for them. Probably on a hi-wall action from Uberti.

I already have a 30-06 on a Browning hi-wall that is a tack driver but will only shoot up to a 165 grain bullet since it has a 1 in14 inch twist in it's tapered octagon barrel. Just the way they were when Browning started making them.

[madman4570]

You can check out German Salazar's site, http://riflemansjournal.blogspot.com/p/ ... index.html he completes with 30-06's. He has a lot of good articles there.

The depth of real world competitive shooting experience on that site is darn near epic, as are the experience related here by Old Soldier and others. Much as people are going to hate me, I'm really not seeing the bad in a 30-06 setup for the mission. Platforms are plentiful, ammunition grows on trees, it won't kill the barrel like the faster stuff and is extremely flexible in payload. That's not to say the other calibers aren't good medicine, but a its game of give and take; there's a lot of give in the 30-06 apparently.

And regardless of your caliber affiliation, thanks for keeping this real. Another forum (or two) I can think of wouldn't have been able to.

And now to throw salt on the proverbial wound. I purposely saved this until the useful portion of the conversation was out of the way because if the caliber didn't send things off the rails, the platform that I'm looking at would have I'll preface this by saying, yes I know that 1000 yard accuracy requires an investment in time and money... Something that a Mossberg 4x4 is not. But it is a starter rifle and seems to be a somewhat decent one out of the box at an economical price, which is even better. At least until i find something better and equally economical

Thanks again, peeps. You didn't disappoint.

The more I read where you are going with this the cooler it gets.
That Mossberg,heck that baby probably with shoot darn good.Also remember the gun is only part of the equation.Also big factors are what sighting apparatus you will use and how steady your shooting platform is/ ammo consistency and you as a shooter.
If that gun groups well (which I bet it probably will)has a decent trigger(which it probably will)and you find the right load to send on its merry way(which I bet you do) with practice,practice,practice-------bet you do well.

You will have fun/this sounds fun----and you can come back posting results saying (told you so)with smiling face attached.

I like your spunk! Besides, You probably will do better than I could with that tiny 7MM of mine anyway!

Cool!