Dud rounds?

[Pitchy]

Hey fellers, i`ve had a couple dud rounds in my Chappy 76.
First was when i tried some Reloader 7 powder, no bang and bullet about a foot up the barrel. Thought it was the powder but yesterday had the same thing happen with 3031 powder.
Using CCI large rifle primers.
Any ideas what the cause would be, unburned powder in the barrel.
Do ya think it`s a primer isse as in handling with oily hands or a primer issue related to a poor strike from firing pin. Can a primer fire poorly from a light firing pin strike?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.
I`ve used the same primers in my 45-70 and never had a issue.
I prime one primer at a time and pick them up with my fingers which i admit wern`t as clean as should be,(oily)

[John in MS]

I tend to doubt any concerns about oily fingers unless they were REALLY oily and sat up for a while to permit contamination. I'd look at your primers for evidence of light strikes, and check your crimp, which can facilitate full ignition. Firing pin protrusion and headspace might also be worth a look. Also, just to rule out another source, you might check to verify primers are being fully seated.

Hope this helps!

John

[Pitchy]

Thanks, primers are fully seated and a heavy crimp so my guess would be a light strike or need to change to a different brand primer.
Can a primmer ignite enough to push the bullet up the barrel yet not set off the charge?

[Nath]

This is telling a tale on something Pitchy! I bet it has something to do with them fliers!

Is the case full? I wonder if you need a magnum primer!!

Nath.

[Hobie]

I have had the same thing happen with a book maximum charge of IMR 4198. Like you I first thought I had erred in some way. Unfortunately, the problem is that with too much air space in these "safe" charges a really hot primer is needed to ignite the charge. A switch to magnum primers and a SLIGHT increase in the powder charge (following the 40% rule) seems to have ended this problem. Ne'er a problem with Pyrodex, FFg, or SR4759 and standard primers. All of these powders fill the case pretty well and put the powder right up against the flash hole.

I don't want to speak for Mike D. but I think he uses standard primers HOWEVER, his powder charges are sufficiently large that they put the powder right up against the flash hole no matter what. He hasn't had any problems that I know of in HIS REPRODUCTION rifle.

[Pitchy]

With the 3031 powder yes the case is pretty full, don`t know never had it happen before.
Hobie thanks, little relief there, i bet your right though as i said the 3031 fills the case pretty full.
I`ve heard of people having problems with certain brand primers as well.
My fingers were pretty oily on my last reloading session so i washed all the cases and my hand and primed them all and am waiting for some 4198 to get here then i`ll load up some and see if there is an issue.

[Mike D.]

Pitchy, you don't have to worry much about using more powder than the old 40% rule with the modern 1876 reproductions. I'm sure that they are sufficient to handle 25KPSI, but I don't go anywhere near that. I made one test using IMR 3031 and 300 grain Laser Cast LFNs. Dang lousy results from 45 grains sparked by a WW large rifle primer. These primers call for use with both standard and magnum loads. Three shots gave me velocities of 1369, 1356, and 1366 FPS. ABYSMAL!!! Terribly inaccurate and very sooted cases. I haven't tried 3031 again, but would probably have to go up at least 3-4 grains to get anything respectable from it.

The load that did work was from using IMR 4198. This time it was 40 grains 4198, same primer, and 300 grain Barnes original jacketed bullet. MV with the three tested rounds was 1782, 1775, and 1783 FPS. Very nice shooters, accurate as all get out and easy to eject. The cases were bright and clean. I'm going to try the same load but dropping the bullet weight to 250 Barnes TSX. That should be a great hunting load for my "CA BIG BUZZARD ZONE". For hunting use the lousy sights on the Chaparral carbine will have to suffer some sort of improvement, but I haven't figured that part out quite yet.

[Pitchy]

The load that did work was from using IMR 4198. This time it was 40 grains 4198, same primer, and 300 grain Barnes original jacketed bullet. MV with the three tested rounds was 1782, 1775, and 1783 FPS. Very nice shooters, accurate as all get out and easy to eject. The cases were bright and clean.

That is just what i`m lookin for Mike, the 4198 should be in early next week then i`ll load up some at that load and see how they shoot.
Does 40 grains fill up the case pretty good or do you use a filler?
Thanks

[Old Ranger]

Well sir,

I had some weird ignition problems with 3031 last year in a moderate load with a .45-70. Nice cast bullets. Lubed with Ideal. Primed with Win LR's. Had a few that just went "pop" and the round hit in front of the bench about 20' away....In nearly 50 years of reloading I never saw that...I thought to myself "That was different.". And shot a few more after clearing the bore with a swab. There was lots of unburnt powder needless to say. Switched to CCI #250 LR Mag primers and never had that little "pop" again with the same load.

Now All of my rounds I load are with the mag primers. I do adjust many loads to account for the greater ingition and slight increase pressure (for those that are in the upper levels that is) and have eliminated the "pop" now for good... Funny thing is that the local shop only stocks #250's....Must be karma huh?

Hope you get your matter cleared up soon.

Wade

[Pitchy]

Thanks Wade.

[Chuck 100 yd]

I had the same problem with my "76" in .50-95 using slow powders. I switched to Trail boss and a load of 13 grains for a very accurate target load.
Now if you want to duplicate old BP loads in smokless go to the latest Lyman manual and you will find them listed.
Lyman load manual #49 IIRC.

[Mike D.]

I have never used fillers and don't advocate their use for any reason. Others may like them just fine, but to me their use is asking for trouble. Fill the case with adequate powder and go on your way.

[Pitchy]

Thanks guys
I`d also like to thank Mike D for his appreciated knowledge of leverguns, too me he is one of the old timers here that keeps right on helping people on this board.
Lots of great info goes on around here

[AJMD429]

A switch to magnum primers and a SLIGHT increase in the powder charge (following the 40% rule) seems to have ended this problem. . . . I don't want to speak for Mike D. but I think he uses standard primers HOWEVER, his powder charges are sufficiently large that they put the powder right up against the flash hole no matter what.

1. What's the "40% rule"...?

2. One way to 'test' the not-against-the-flash-hole theory would be if Pitchy wanted to load up a dozen with the 3031, and purposely tip barrel-up just before shooting half of them, then tip barre-down just before shooting the others. Checking to be sure they cleared the barrel each time, of course...

[Pitchy]

A switch to magnum primers and a SLIGHT increase in the powder charge (following the 40% rule) seems to have ended this problem. . . . I don't want to speak for Mike D. but I think he uses standard primers HOWEVER, his powder charges are sufficiently large that they put the powder right up against the flash hole no matter what.

1. What's the "40% rule"...?

2. One way to 'test' the not-against-the-flash-hole theory would be if Pitchy wanted to load up a dozen with the 3031, and purposely tip barrel-up just before shooting half of them, then tip barre-down just before shooting the others. Checking to be sure they cleared the barrel each time, of course...

No thanks, i value my hair to much

[Cliff]

Don't know if you have a major problem or not. I am not too sure if this would be a safe procedure to use in your rifle or not. One trick I have used and experimented with due to powder postioning and also failures to ignite powder charges. I would put a small black powder charge in the case, against the primer hole, pour in the smokeless. It can work well, but I cannot vouch for the safety of your gun. The combination of black and smokeless leaves little or no residue in the case and shoots clean in the barrel as well, hardly notice the smoke from black. I have also done the opposite with black and a smokeless igniting charge. I don't recommend it for everyone, only those who use moderations and caution. On the smokeless against the primer, shoots clean, little or no fouling. Smokeless on top the black powder no smoke but dirty case and some in the bore. Mixed black and smokeless then loaded into a case also works on keeping fouling down. But again, I don't know what pressures are created, and it is probably an unsafe proceedure. Use it at your own risk. One other thing on priming charges, it is common to use true black as a priming charge on some stuff like pyrodex. Again, be careful, don't screw up. I did this years ago never had a problem. At the time I was experimenting on fouling problems and how to avoid them. When I say a small about of black powder I mean about a 22 short or long rifle case full, no more and usually I was working with a slow smokeless like 4831 or slower. Just saying. Be Safe follow what the powder companys say and the reloading manuals say. Good Luck, hope your problems are solved safely.

[Pitchy]

Thanks Cliff, appreciate the info.
I`m hoping the hotter 4198 load fixes the problem, i may go to magnum primers also.

[olyinaz]

First, I'll echo the "what's the 40% rule" question. Huh?

Second, is it possible that lube has found it's way to the primer and fouled it?

Both are complete noob questions, so please forgive that and I appreciate the info.

Oly

[piller]

I am almost wondering if you have either a bad batch of powder, or some bad primers. If the powder is bad, would it fail to ignite with normal primers, and would extra flame from the magnum primers be enough to make things work? I am asking because I don't know.

[Pitchy]

I`m not the expert on this, i wonder if is what they call sqib loads.
I think this is what happens when ya try and make big calibers shoot like small calibers.
Cowboy action shooters have this problem a lot i think.

[Mike D.]

The "40% rule" is a generally accepted safety margin for use of smokeless powder in antique firearms. An example might be the .45-70 cartridge. If you were going to use IMR 3031 in a original 1873 Springfield or 1881 Marlin your maximum charge would be 40% of 70 grains BP, or 28 grains. The object is to keep the pressure curve at or below that of the original BP pressure and the muzzle velocity also close to that of the old load.

[Pitchy]

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... &start=120

[hightime]

Pitchy, I'm not speculating on your issue, but two weeks ago I posted that I had a simular problem.
I had tried a batch of 45 Colt only half sizing. I did crimp, but there wasn't enough hold and the primer fired the bullet without fully igniting the powder. More sizing and a good crimp fixed the problem totally.

Owen

[Pitchy]

Pitchy, I'm not speculating on your issue, but two weeks ago I posted that I had a simular problem.
I had tried a batch of 45 Colt only half sizing. I did crimp, but there wasn't enough hold and the primer fired the bullet without fully igniting the powder. More sizing and a good crimp fixed the problem totally.

Owen

Weird stuff huh, the bullets have a good snug feel to them when loading and a heavy crimp but who knows. No problem today using 4198 and that load doesn`t fill the case as much as 3031.
Time will tell.

[SteveR]

Maybe your 3031 powder is bad-wet? Sounds like the primers work. Maybe try a different caliber with the 3031 and see if it burns.

Steve

[Pitchy]

Maybe your 3031 powder is bad-wet? Sounds like the primers work. Maybe try a different caliber with the 3031 and see if it burns.

Steve

Load 45-70 with the same powder with no issues.

[SteveR]

Maybe your 3031 powder is bad-wet? Sounds like the primers work. Maybe try a different caliber with the 3031 and see if it burns.

Steve

Load 45-70 with the same powder with no issues.

I thought the 45-70 with 3031 was not lighting the powder?

Steve

[Pitchy]

45-60

[SteveR]

Oh, that is odd. Maybe it is a crimping problem with the 45-60.

Steve

[Pitchy]

Pitchy, you don't have to worry much about using more powder than the old 40% rule with the modern 1876 reproductions. I'm sure that they are sufficient to handle 25KPSI, but I don't go anywhere near that. I made one test using IMR 3031 and 300 grain Laser Cast LFNs. Dang lousy results from 45 grains sparked by a WW large rifle primer. These primers call for use with both standard and magnum loads. Three shots gave me velocities of 1369, 1356, and 1366 FPS. ABYSMAL!!! Terribly inaccurate and very sooted cases. I haven't tried 3031 again, but would probably have to go up at least 3-4 grains to get anything respectable from it.

The load that did work was from using IMR 4198. This time it was 40 grains 4198, same primer, and 300 grain Barnes original jacketed bullet. MV with the three tested rounds was 1782, 1775, and 1783 FPS. Very nice shooters, accurate as all get out and easy to eject. The cases were bright and clean. I'm going to try the same load but dropping the bullet weight to 250 Barnes TSX. That should be a great hunting load for my "CA BIG BUZZARD ZONE". For hunting use the lousy sights on the Chaparral carbine will have to suffer some sort of improvement, but I haven't figured that part out quite yet.

There has been a misunderstanding here so i want to correct it so no one else makes the same mistake i did and i`m not blaming Mike for anything.
Mike is talking about his 45-75, i thought he was talking about the same caliber as mine a 45-60.
I`m lucky i didn`t blow up my gun with the 40 grain load of 4198.
I took it for granted that he was suggesting that load for my 45-60, do not try that load.