big bears and 45-70

[JNG]

Well, I'm playing with my Sharps 45-70 carbine. I'm using 5744 for my powder. Still looking for the right combo. I have a cheap right shoulder. I recoken that the 405 is going ~1300' ps.
Queston? In the good old days, with this load can it get a man out of harm way is Mr. Grizz comes and says howday. Understand, I am not going to hunt bears, but I'm just nosey.

joe

[AJMD429]

I'm sure many on this forum have hunted bear with .45-70, and I'll bet they didn't all use 'Ruger' loads.

I've never hunted grizzly bear. . .
. . . but would feel about as (un)comfortable doing it with a moderately-loaded .45-70 as a really hot-loaded one. . .

[Blaine]

Our fellow forumite Grizz has a 525 gr load that shot about 1400 and some change out of my 1895GS.....those loads were penetrating 12-13 milk jugs of water, and IIRC the bullet was not in the last jug (Grizz may correct that but I'm dang close) It was not cream puff load, but neither was it brutal. I also shot it in my BFR, and it was not that bad.

[DixieBoy]

Blaine - So that's what put that look on yer kisser in the avatar photo, eh ? Holy smokes ! A 525 grain bullet out of a .45 -70 revolver ! We ought to just call you HOMBRE and be done with it.

Goofing around aside, this is one of the joys of the .45-70 cartridge. You really can load it from mild to wild. - DixieBoy

[Blaine]

Blaine - So that's what put that look on yer kisser in the avatar photo, eh ? Holy smokes ! A 525 grain bullet out of a .45 -70 revolver ! We ought to just call you HOMBRE and be done with it.

Goofing around aside, this is one of the joys of the .45-70 cartridge. You really can load it from mild to wild. - DixieBoy

My normal 45-70 load I've settled on is a 405 @ 17-1800....those had more sting in the BFR than those 525 loads Honest

[Grizz]

Well, it was only going 1310 outa your revolver. NBD.

My daughter shoots it accurately, so if a girl can do it, the guys should be able to, with a smile.

I think we could slow it down to 1100 and still get massive penetration. Look at that piddley little 44 load I have, it penetrated a dozen jugs too, guy in MO loads it to 1030. And it's only 405gr.

To the OP: I've never shot a bear either. I always prayed I wouldn't run into them. They scare the spit outa me.

I think bullets upward of 400gr traveling around 1000 fps and hard enough NOT to expand, will two-hole any bear from any direction through any amount of bear stuff.

Soft bullets that start expanding as they enter do not perform the same way that hard bullets that don't deform in boney stuff do. The properly hard cast bullets do not disintegrate as some suppose. The best test I know is the hammer test. Whack your bullets with a 3 pound hammer a couple of times and see what happens to it. Marshall's bullets do not break or frag. Other cast bullets may crumble, or they just flatten out. I want the bullets that hold together like Marshall's do.

Blaine and I shot some bullets into some firewood. His cast bullets fragmented, mine stayed intact with some small amount of nose swelling.

I read a report of someone shooting some animal with soft cast bullets and they did not penetrate the shoulder. They made a messy surface wound that did no mortal damage. That's the bullet I avoid when I'm in the bear's woods.

This is very controversial stuff and lots of opinions appear around this topic. But there are some folks in Alaska carrying my loads along "just in case".

Best,

Grizz

[Grizz]

Blaine - So that's what put that look on yer kisser in the avatar photo, eh ? Holy smokes ! A 525 grain bullet out of a .45 -70 revolver ! We ought to just call you HOMBRE and be done with it.

Goofing around aside, this is one of the joys of the .45-70 cartridge. You really can load it from mild to wild. - DixieBoy

My normal 45-70 load I've settled on is a 405 @ 17-1800....those had more sting in the BFR than those 525 loads Honest

That's true. AND they come about 4 to 5 jugs short of the piledriver. Remember that 425 load I was running that day Fred videoed?
That's a shoulder reloacater, but it doesn't have the raw penetration of the big guy.

[Blaine]

Blaine - So that's what put that look on yer kisser in the avatar photo, eh ? Holy smokes ! A 525 grain bullet out of a .45 -70 revolver ! We ought to just call you HOMBRE and be done with it.

Goofing around aside, this is one of the joys of the .45-70 cartridge. You really can load it from mild to wild. - DixieBoy

My normal 45-70 load I've settled on is a 405 @ 17-1800....those had more sting in the BFR than those 525 loads Honest

That's true. AND they come about 4 to 5 jugs short of the piledriver. Remember that 425 load I was running that day Fred videoed?
That's a shoulder reloacater, but it doesn't have the raw penetration of the big guy.

The Garrett 420 +Ps were real thumpers on the shoulder and hand, too....Lot's of Snap!

[DixieBoy]

Blaine and Grizz - What you guys are saying pretty much dovetails with all I've read that John Linebaugh had to say about this same subject. Penetration is not always achieved by the fastest velocities, it seems, but by heavier bullets moving at medium-fast speed. It seems counter-intuitive, but his penetration tests are hard to deny.

As to the "lighter" 405 grain bullet doing 1700+ fps, well, let's just call that one "peppy", eh ?

And here I've been thinking I was having a ball, shooting 260 - 290 grain bullets at 950 - 1050 fps out of my .45 Colt Blackhawk. Might have to inch my way up towards the 300 grainers and play with them for a while.

One last thing: reading about what you guys have been up to got me thinking about my dear and beloved Marlin 1895. It hasn't been out of its case for 2 years now. THAT'S got to change. Thanks for the kick in the pants about the .45-70 loads. - DixieBoy

[dogngun]

I had one of the 1970's Marlins straight grip .45-70's when they first came out. What I really liked about it was that you could load that big case to any level-I had some groundhog loads using the Hornady 300 grain "varmint" bullet over a very light load of 3031.

They are very accurate, fun guns and a great old cartridge.


(I also shot some hand loads using a round soft lead ball in an original trapdoor Springfield.)

ADDED: I see I failed to make the point that I would NEVER rely on a single shot rifle if there were dangerous game present in the area...they do not care if you are hunting them or not, they are not interested in the esthetics of the weapon... You need the proper tool to insure that YOU walk out of there. Single shot is not that tool.


mark

[madman4570]

Let me say I have shot bears-----But---I am no expert on giving advice on whats best to kill them to someone(givin their life might depend on it)

I will say though, giving the fact you stated you ARE NOT HUNTING THEM(ALSO WILL HAVE NO GUIDE WITH A BIG BACKUP BOOM STICK,
and you are concerned IF Mr. BIG BAD decides he don't like you(that single shot gun,don't care what caliber)would be in a last pick section.

Extreme difference if you are hunting him and pop him one while he is grazing on grass in a small meadow,compared to he sees you as a THREAT. If that happens-----odds are his favor whether that one bullet eventually kills him(he will kill you before HE DIES) also there is that chance even if he is just minding his manners chewing grass gets hit(then, he is coming for ya)


Get a Lever in 45-70(and personally I want that gun shooting that bullet with authority)myself it would be 405gr Buffalo Bore @2000fps ammo with some stout loaded up Belt Mountain Punch Bullet ammo staggered in between.
But that's just me cause the recoil (for me, is doable) Heck, if speed meant little why have any hotter rounds.
(speed???) how bout .38-55 Win verses a .338 Win for Big Bear-------------------Ask a guide????? Not only penetration,I want some KO factor going on too. Anyhow------Get a Lever, $500 is worth your life
I know were talking heavier bullets but anytime I can have (more power,up to what I can handle)for that type possible event give me it.

And if you are still bound and determined to carry that Sharps for that type protection (at least as a minimum strap on a .45Colt/.44Mag sixgun loaded with some BIG STOUT bullets. Better yet(.454 Casull/.500 S&W)


ps---let me say this a man I bought my mint 6.5" SS S&W 629(44 Mag)from (I am a close friend with his wife/worked with)he was in British Columbia and in a tree stand shot a (guessed sized, 500lbs)black bear at 40yds with that S&W 629 and the bear within a "couple" seconds after being (thought well hit)charged the tree he was in climbed it snapping/clawing while he unloaded his gun on it got almost to his boots,it ran back down the tree(they never found it)and he could not live still owning that gun.(sold it/I mean gave it to me for $325 and it even was fitted with a matching silver Ultra-Dot Red Dot/200rds ammo/2 holsters.
I said I will hold it for you if you ever change your mind(that was seven years ago)
He bought a Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull

Now,this guy a is construction worker(about 6'3" tall and weighed about 315lbs)big/stout not soft/flabby
When I get a chance to talk to the wife(always say,your hubby ready for his pistol back??)she says"nope"
She says he still has actual sweat driven nightmares about that!

BIG PI##ED OFF BEARS ============= BAD MEDICINE

[86er]

Bears are pretty soft compared to a bovine or pachyderm. A hard cast bullet of heavy weight and moderate velocity should penetrate just fine at close range.

[Don McDowell]

The 45-70 is 139 years old, it's original loading was a 405 gr bullet at 12-1300 fps, that cartridge and load lived on well until the internet age. There must be a reason for it to have lived so long....

[Cliff]

The original 45-70 loadings with 405 grain and 500 grain bullets were meant to break down horses and kill at 500 yards. They did this very well. In that day calvary was the bain of the foot soldiers, they could flank infantry and break up infantry attacks quickly. The Army back then wanted a round to stop horses. If it can put down a horse or man at 500 yards it isn't a very bad cart ridge. Just saying. ATB

[AJMD429]

Blaine and Grizz - What you guys are saying pretty much dovetails with all I've read that John Linebaugh had to say about this same subject. Penetration is not always achieved by the fastest velocities, it seems, but by heavier bullets moving at medium-fast speed. It seems counter-intuitive, but his penetration tests are hard to deny.

One analogy I read was like if you are standing in waist-deep water, and put your hand up overhead and slap down at the water - if you do it slowly, you will go through the water with little effort, but if you do it as hard/fast as you can, your palm will hit that water and slow down so fast it will not carry as easily through the rest of the arc in the water. Sorta makes sense...

[madman4570]

Guess my point was more in areas where I have the chance to meet up with Big bears saying howdy(I don't want a single shot)
Also where does knockdown power come into play.

My 416 Weatherby at 600yds (400gr bullet)is still traveling 1420fps

If penetration/bullet weight/shot placement only being what is mostly important(do you think shooting a 900lb grizzly at 600yds will stop as well as at 50yds being hit with same round with what would be considered a decent body shot on a bear ??
Forget about the frontal shot on a charging bear.

For a bear that is coming at you to say howdy(I want some energy also)????? (isn't 6000ftlbs wacking em producing quite a different effect on him over 1500ftlbs)??

Where am I wrong????

Still, just don't feel right with a Single Shot weapon whether loaded down or not??(especially when we have choices)when being in harms way.

[Blaine]

Guess my point was more in areas where I have the chance to meet up with Big bears saying howdy(I don't want a single shot)
Also where does knockdown power come into play.

My 416 Weatherby at 600yds (400gr bullet)is still traveling 1420fps

If penetration/bullet weight/shot placement only being what is mostly important(do you think shooting a 900lb grizzly at 600yds will stop as well as at 50yds being hit with same round with a decent body shot ??

For a bear that is coming at you to say howdy(I want some energy also)????? (isn't 6000ftlbs wacking em producing quite a different effect on him over 1500ftlbs)??

Where am I wrong????

I really don't know that you're wrong. The hard cast, wide meplat 525 that Grizz was loading was not intended to mushroom, but to penetrate. This would be useful for breaking down the most muscle and bone.

[madman4570]

Guess my point was more in areas where I have the chance to meet up with Big bears saying howdy(I don't want a single shot)
Also where does knockdown power come into play.

My 416 Weatherby at 600yds (400gr bullet)is still traveling 1420fps

If penetration/bullet weight/shot placement only being what is mostly important(do you think shooting a 900lb grizzly at 600yds will stop as well as at 50yds being hit with same round with a decent body shot ??

For a bear that is coming at you to say howdy(I want some energy also)????? (isn't 6000ftlbs wacking em producing quite a different effect on him over 1500ftlbs)??

Where am I wrong????

I really don't know that you're wrong. The hard cast, wide meplat 525 that Grizz was loading was not intended to mushroom, but to penetrate. This would be useful for breaking down the most muscle and bone.

Ya maybe you are right, kinda looks like the high power is a negative(????????????)It just amazes me to think 45-70 better killer than .416 Weatherby???
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html




http://www.realguns.com/Commentary/comar171.htm

[2ndovc]

The original 45-70 loadings with 405 grain and 500 grain bullets were meant to break down horses and kill at 500 yards. They did this very well. In that day calvary was the bain of the foot soldiers, they could flank infantry and break up infantry attacks quickly. The Army back then wanted a round to stop horses. If it can put down a horse or man at 500 yards it isn't a very bad cart ridge. Just saying. ATB

CAVALRY!!!!! "Men who fight from horseback"

Calvary is a bunch of Nuns! Pretty sure they won't stand a chace against any 45-70!

jb

[Grizz]

My 416 Weatherby at 600yds (400gr bullet)is still traveling 1420fps

If penetration/bullet weight/shot placement only being what is mostly important(do you think shooting a 900lb grizzly at 600yds will stop as well as at 50yds being hit with same round with what would be considered a decent body shot on a bear ??
Forget about the frontal shot on a charging bear.

For a bear that is coming at you to say howdy(I want some energy also)????? (isn't 6000ftlbs wacking em producing quite a different effect on him over 1500ftlbs)??

Where am I wrong????

Most probably, IMO, your bullet will self-destruct at point blank range. You can easily test this stuff out. Just line up a bunch of 1 gallon jugs of water, stand back to last chance bear charge distance, and see how many jugs your bullet penetrates and what exactly happens to the bullet. Then do the same thing with a 45/70 loaded with the right shape and weight of bullet, and you tell us your results.

You are never going to believe anyone but yourself, you have to try this stuff. It's kinetic learning. You might get totally different results than everyone else who has tried it.

The FLAT MEPLAT NON EXPANDING BULLET acts completely differently than the bullets your .416 shoots. It just does. Try it out, it's a lot of fun really and you learn something every time.

Here's a very counter-intuitive example comparing two exactly identical bullets except for weight and velocity.

425gr beartooth piledriver junior shot from a guide gun at 1775 fps

vs

525gr beartooth piledriver shot from the same gun at 1440 fps

Which one penetrates farther?

It's not intuitive.

PLEASE NOTE THIS:
I am not saying that shooting water is the functional equivalent of shooting bears, even though bears are about 85% water. What I am saying is that shooting water allows direct comparisons of the type above, and allows us to compare bullets of other types and velocities to whatever baseline we prefer. My baseline moved because of my testing and observations.

Which penetrates more water, a .50 BMG with ball ammo, or a 45/70 with the hard cast flat meplat bullets?

It's not what most people think.

OTOH, the .50 will shoot right thru a half-inch steel plate, and the 45/70 will bounce off. Which is why I test in water to gain some confidence in the bear stopper loads I carry.

I hope this is helpful in stimulating some thought about this stuff. I don't have much in the way of theory to go on, I just report what I see. It takes experimentation to get oneself to see the reality of it.

And if I were trying to shoot a bear from 600 yards, the 45/70 won't do me any good and the .416 would be super.

But I'd much rather have my shottie or my 45/70 or my redhawk than a .416 if the bear got within squatting distance.

[BigSky56]

Its not the gun its the bullet placement after seeing a few that have been dropped that were charging people and they used what was in their hands at the time 22 LR at 15 Yds, 410 singleshot at 3ft at night, 7mm at 25 yds, 30-30 at 10 yds at night. And a go around myself shots turned the bear before he got to the deadline. There has been more than a few killed with shotguns from 410 to 12 ga with birdshot by homeowners in the chicken coup, animal pens or raiding garbage cans and shot by mistake for black bears. danny





MT) Shotgun blast kills charging grizzly 10-14-03
Date: Oct 15, 2003 2:01 AM
http://www.dailyinterlake.com/NewsEngin ... -734891-41

Shotgun blast drops charging grizzly
By Jim Mann
The Daily Inter Lake

Two aggressive grizzly bears have been shot, one by a hunter and one by
a Fortine homeowner.

A Kalispell man shot a stalking grizzly bear in the Swan Mountains and a
Fortine man shot a grizzly at close range, narrowly escaping as the bear
charged from a chicken coop.

James Beeman picked up a .410-gauge shotgun when he went outside his
Fortine-area home to investigate a commotion from his chicken coop
around 4 a.m. Sunday.

Wearing a headlamp and expecting a skunk, Beeman saw two bear cubs run
from the damaged door of the chicken coop. Then an adult grizzly bear
emerged with a chicken in its mouth.

The bear dropped the chicken and charged from 15 feet. Beeman fired,
with the muzzle of the gun roughly three feet from the bear, which
crumpled to ground, dead at Beeman's feet.

It turned out to be an astounding shot, considering a .410 is a light
gun and the shell contained a light load typically used for quail
hunting.

But it hit the bear squarely in the nose, the only soft, vulnerable
place on a grizzly skull. Pellets likely penetrated the length of the
nasal cavity to the brain. The wad from the shell was imbedded in the
bear's nose.

"What's the likelihood of that?" said Ed Kelly, Montana Fish, Wildlife
and Parks warden captain in Kalispell. "I know guys with .375s who
couldn't have made a kill like that. He's just a lucky, lucky guy."

Kelly said the shooting was a "justifiable case of self defense."

The bear was a 350-pound female.

Warden Jim Roberts and Tim Manley, the grizzly bear management
specialist in Northwest Montana, have been pursuing the bear's two
cubs-of-the-year. At one point, the cubs were chased high up a tree, too
high to dart with sedatives because of the risk of them being hurt in a
fall.

In a separate bear encounter on Oct. 3, Dr. Roger Brown, a Kalispell
plastic surgeon, shot a grizzly bear high in the Swan Mountains.

Brown had been scouting for mountain goats in preparation for a hunt
with his son and grandson. He was returning to camp in the evening,
hiking in rough terrain just south of Holland Peak and Rumble Lake, when
he encountered a grizzly bear along a small creek.
According to a written account Brown provided to wardens, he tried to
slowly back away from the bear, but it continued to approach, then
stopped, then approached again.

After 20 minutes of advancing on Brown, the bear approached within 30
yards and then charged him. Brown fired his rifle at the bear, and it
ran off.

John Fraley, information officer with Montana Fish, Wildlife and Parks,
said the bear was clearly exhibiting aggressive "stalking" behavior.

Brown went back to his camp. The next morning he returned to the spot he
had seen the bear. He followed a blood trail for about a half mile, but
then stopped looking for the bear, thinking it had probably survived to
travel much farther, Kelly said.

Brown finished his hunt, hiked out and reported the shooting to wardens
on Oct. 7.

"This is a justified shooting," Kelly said. "There is no doubt about
it.
We've reviewed this with the county attorney. The only thing I don't
like about it was the delay in reporting it. Legally, everything he did
was fine."

Kelly said it's unknown if the bear survived. The delay in the report
made any kind of follow-up pursuit of the bear with dogs impossible.

Except in cases of self defense, it's a federal offense to kill grizzly

[tman]

Elmer Keith shot an 800LB. Grizzly at 30 yards with a hardcast, blackpowder, 45 colt, going 800 FPS. It completely penetrated and passed thru the bears' skull. Just throwin' that into the mix

[Old Time Hunter]

I figure a baseball bat...

Just hit whomever is with you in the knee cap with the bat, then run like hell.

[t.r.]

I never understood why anyone would hunt big bears. That being said, I have no quarrel with those that do.

If I were to go after a big one it would be with a 35 Whelen and backed up by guide with AK-47 and big clip full of ammo.

TR

[madman4570]

My 416 Weatherby at 600yds (400gr bullet)is still traveling 1420fps

If penetration/bullet weight/shot placement only being what is mostly important(do you think shooting a 900lb grizzly at 600yds will stop as well as at 50yds being hit with same round with what would be considered a decent body shot on a bear ??
Forget about the frontal shot on a charging bear.

For a bear that is coming at you to say howdy(I want some energy also)????? (isn't 6000ftlbs wacking em producing quite a different effect on him over 1500ftlbs)??

Where am I wrong????

Most probably, IMO, your bullet will self-destruct at point blank range. You can easily test this stuff out. Just line up a bunch of 1 gallon jugs of water, stand back to last chance bear charge distance, and see how many jugs your bullet penetrates and what exactly happens to the bullet. Then do the same thing with a 45/70 loaded with the right shape and weight of bullet, and you tell us your results.

You are never going to believe anyone but yourself, you have to try this stuff. It's kinetic learning. You might get totally different results than everyone else who has tried it.

The FLAT MEPLAT NON EXPANDING BULLET acts completely differently than the bullets your .416 shoots. It just does. Try it out, it's a lot of fun really and you learn something every time.

Here's a very counter-intuitive example comparing two exactly identical bullets except for weight and velocity.

425gr beartooth piledriver junior shot from a guide gun at 1775 fps

vs

525gr beartooth piledriver shot from the same gun at 1440 fps

Which one penetrates farther?

It's not intuitive.

PLEASE NOTE THIS:
I am not saying that shooting water is the functional equivalent of shooting bears, even though bears are about 85% water. What I am saying is that shooting water allows direct comparisons of the type above, and allows us to compare bullets of other types and velocities to whatever baseline we prefer. My baseline moved because of my testing and observations.

Which penetrates more water, a .50 BMG with ball ammo, or a 45/70 with the hard cast flat meplat bullets?

It's not what most people think.

OTOH, the .50 will shoot right thru a half-inch steel plate, and the 45/70 will bounce off. Which is why I test in water to gain some confidence in the bear stopper loads I carry.

I hope this is helpful in stimulating some thought about this stuff. I don't have much in the way of theory to go on, I just report what I see. It takes experimentation to get oneself to see the reality of it.

And if I were trying to shoot a bear from 600 yards, the 45/70 won't do me any good and the .416 would be super.

But I'd much rather have my shottie or my 45/70 or my redhawk than a .416 if the bear got within squatting distance.

Ok---I went to Walmart today and bought 20 Gallon jugs of Purified Water.

I setup 10 and blasted the first set at 20ft with my .416 Weatherby(Mark V)(400 grain Barnes Banded Solid @ 2730fps)--------------
Complete pass through of them all and nothing hardly left of the jugs.

Next up---45-70 (Ruger#1) (430 grain LFNGC @ 1925fps)---------------Guess what happened??????
It penetrated all 10 too

Seemed like the .416 destroyed the jugs better.

I will have to try 15 jugs each sometime

The 45-70 does a good job for not much recoil (not much after shooting that .416) that sucker even bruised my shoulder this time!)

[Grizz]

Good on ya, that's the spirit!

I used 70 Lb lead cannon balls on my trolling gear. I've shot them with everything up to my .338 win mag, at about point blank ranges. Lead absorbs incredible punishment. Somewhere I have pictures of the craters. Looks like those asteroid attack movies.

A guy in MO launched a 405 gr cast bullet from a ruger redhawk 44 and penetrated 13 jugs of water. I've penetrated 12 with one of my 45/70 loads.

Linebaugh does extensive testing with wet newsprint in special boxes he builds. They seem to slow bullets better and capture some of them.

[Don McDowell]

There are letters to the Sharps factory from buffalo hunters telling of shooting thru and killing multiple buffalo at ranges to 500 yds and beyond with 400 gr bullets from 44-77's. Even soft lead bullets propelled at and around the 12-1300 fps mark can do a better job of killing than folks that were brought up on smokeless powder ,jacketed bullets and highvelocity will believe , until the actually experience it.

[madman4570]

Guys,

Help me here(many of you guys are smarter than me on this stuff)

OK, Now if speed means very little(why was the .458 Lott derived and favored over the .458 Win when guys were getting killed because that .458 Win didn't provide proper penetration. (Same bullet etc. just a boost in velocity of 200-300fps)

Why is the .416 Weatherby chosen as one of the choices for Dangerous game but the 450 Marlin is not.

Or a 200gr .35 Whelen is described by guides as enough Big Bear medicine,but 200gr .35 Remington comes up short???

Are we talking more to do with just bullet weight and bullet construction(say heavy bullet/Hard Cast design)

I remember Joe(86er) talking about some of the testing he did on Solids/and various Casts and if I remember right he found the FMJ bullets like the Northfolk/Punch bullets etc. gave far superior results and said he wouldn't use any Cast after those results??????????????

If something is designed and proper for a thick skinned/big boned critter(Elephant/Hippo/Rhino)and does the job,why wouldn't it be at least as good as a non-expanding cast bullet on a thin skinned/big critter.

Are you saying a 45-70 400gr cast bullet will penetrate into an elephants skull/head/neck/shoulder like a .460 Weatherby punch bullet???

If so,why isn't that considered a weapon of choice???


I have done test shooting thick Lexan/thick plate steel/railroad rail etc.
In those tests I have found that with similar bullet weights that speed was the deciding factor for penetration.

Example comparing the .35 Remington(200gr) 44mag(240gr) 30-06(180gr) 300Win Mag(180gr)

The 300 Mag clearly was the only one to penetrate the real THICK Lexan Sheet sections. Also much more evident in the steel.

If that is evident/why wouldn't it be more evident in a elephants brain/brown bears skull.

I would think the best solution would be a BIG/HEAVY PUNCH(or top quality FMC) BULLET/good SD /Wide Meplate and going pretty darn FAST ???

What do DG Guides use as backup guns in a last resort situation(don't think 45-70 is one???)Know .460 is one!
Otherwise the answer to everything big and bad would be a .45Colt Levergun loaded with 300+grain punch bullets.

Help me where I am kludged!

[Don McDowell]

It's simple highvelocity jacketed bullets expand, expansion impedes penetration. That's why the highvelocity jacketed bullet smokeless types favor "solids" for "dangerous" game because those "solids" penetrate further and deeper.
Yet those old obscolete blackpowder cartridges lobbing bullets around a the speed of sound will penetrate very well, it's just the slower velocity makes it a little more difficult to place the shot at unkown distances than the highspeed stuff.
And then there's the crosseyed factor, example say lets take a 30-30 or 35 remington, most of the "experts" will tell you that those cartridge are on the verge of being unsuitable for anything larget than well fed chipmunks at very close range, but give those same experts a handgun that has the same round castrated by the inefficiency of a handgun, and they're off to all manner of exotic places to kill any large toothy thing they can find.
So in the end it falls back on the if it about makes your hand go knumb, your eyes cross and tiny wet spots appear in your pants, then it has to be just as deadly on the other end...

[madman4570]

It's simple highvelocity jacketed bullets expand, expansion impedes penetration. That's why the highvelocity jacketed bullet smokeless types favor "solids" for "dangerous" game because those "solids" penetrate further and deeper.
Yet those old obscolete blackpowder cartridges lobbing bullets around a the speed of sound will penetrate very well, it's just the slower velocity makes it a little more difficult to place the shot at unkown distances than the highspeed stuff.
And then there's the crosseyed factor, example say lets take a 30-30 or 35 remington, most of the "experts" will tell you that those cartridge are on the verge of being unsuitable for anything larget than well fed chipmunks at very close range, but give those same experts a handgun that has the same round castrated by the inefficiency of a handgun, and they're off to all manner of exotic places to kill any large toothy thing they can find.
So in the end it falls back on the if it about makes your hand go knumb, your eyes cross and tiny wet spots appear in your pants, then it has to be just as deadly on the other end...

Don,
Hear what you are saying, but I have to believe that an Ford F250 going 35mph driven into 5 garages end to end isn't going to do what a F250 going 110mph is going to do.(The truck---sure it's going to be wiped out more/gotta believe those garages at #4,#5 will be too.

[Don McDowell]

While that pickup at 110 will have a more spectacular initial contact it may not in itself make thru all 5 garages...So it is with a rifle, the highvelocity stuff will make a dramatic impact, causing all manner of shock to go thru a critters body, but a slow old miserable obscolete bullet will plow into the same flesh and just keep going , and in it's wake it's leaving a hole that is not as likely to close up and clot over, and it is also letting alot of air into places that are not supposed to have airways into... So while smakin a critter with a 45-70 loaded as it was intended, may not be as spectacular of a sight as a 300 win mag,,, the end results will be little different.
Best thing I know to tell you is grab a handful of what ever flavor of ammo you want to try and sally forth and grab some experience off of the internet... It's a great big world out there, and things don't always line up the way the "experts" in print would have you believe.

[86er]

Somewhere there is a "sweet spot" This is sometimes attributed to the "bubble effect" or "energy projection" in front of the bullet. The only fair comparison is the same exact bullet at the same exact range at the same exact target but at a different velocity. I have shot my 45-70 with NF 450 grainer expanding bullets and solids going 1785 fps. That is as fast as I can get them in that cartridge. The same exact bullets in my 450 NE will go 2120 fps. The 450 NE penetrates 20-30% more depending on the substance it hits, with both bullets. The same 32 grain bullet in my .22 short goes 946 fps and 1254 in .22 LR. The LR penetrates 10-15% more depending on the substance. These are soft lead bullets (of course). My 35 Rem with 22" barrel shoots 200 gr CL's at 2020 fps. My 35 Whelen launches them at 2650 fps. The 35 Rem penetrates 8 wet phone books while the 35 Whelen penetrates 14 (at the same range). So my conclusions have been that slower velocity does not always = more penetration when the same exact bullet and range are used. Once in a while it can be true. A 7mm-08 sends the 150 gr Scirroco @2700 fps and a 7mm Mag sends the same bullet 3115 fps. At 100 yds, the 7mm-08 penetrates 25% more! However at 200 yds the 7mm Mag penetrates 30-35% more! At the closer range the Mag is going fast enough to upset the bullet rapidly and catostrophically which inhibits penetration compared to a slower speed. At 200 yds though, the Mag is still going faster, but not enough to upset the bullet to where it will reduce penetration to a level below the slower velocity.

Looking at a different bullet style and mechanism, I use Barnes X tipped in my muzzleloader. At 1600 fps impact the petals remain intact and the penetration is 18" in ballistic media. At 1950 fps impact the petals either break off or fold back making the profile of the projectile smaller - and it penetrates 22.5". So here again, more velocity-same projectile = more penetration.

Now let's look at 3 totally different bullets within one caliber. In Zambia I used the 45-70 with 540 gr Hammerhead, 430 Punch and 450 Kodiak. The 540 is hardcast, the 430 is brass with lead in the base and the 450 is a heavy copper jacket with lead core. The velocity was with slightly different for each other - 1534, 1756 and 1710 respectively. The lead bullet changed profile drastically as it became rounded on the nose, wider and lost more than half it's weight. The 430 actually forced the lead forward into the nose area and swelled the bullet at the ogive slightly. The 450 gr surprisingly mushroomed severely. These were all fired into Cape Buffalo with similar shot placement at 40 yards (give or take no more than 8 yards between them). They all killed the buffalo. The 430 Punch penetrated the most, almost from end to end for a total of about 44". The 540 Hammerhead penetrated 29". The 450 Kodiak only went 22"! The Game Ranger got mad about the 540 grain performance and took all my cartridges from me and threw them in the river. He was not happy about the Kodiaks but said we could use them only as a first shot on a standing buffalo (he considered them a compromise between a soft/expanding bullet and a solid). The Punch bullet was clearly more than adequate for buffalo and performed as a solid should with 100% weight retention and straight line penetration. Funny, it was the lightest and fastest of the projectiles - and it proved itself on a brain shot elephant too.

Lastly, I will compare two totally different bullets from different calibers. The 375 H&H can get a 380 grain Rhino bullet going 2200 fps. A 416 Rem Mag can get a 400 gr A Frame going 2550 fps (more if you load it as such). As far as stopping, the 380 grain .375 has proved on over a dozen animals now to the be the better choice. The very long bullet allows the petals for peel for 2/3 the length and make a final projectile that is over an inch wide and makes an X with sharp edges on each petal. The bonding, thick jacket and solid shank keep the weight up over 90%. Penetration is outstanding. The 416 Rem Mag bullet on impact flattens the A Frame down 1/2 way to where the "divider" is. The front become dome shaped (the mushroom). They are typically .70 - .82 diameter and retain about 92% weight. The penetration is close to that of the 375-380 Rhinos. However, the 380's have made much more of a mess of the insides of the animal, cutting a wide path and keeping an open tunnel, where the 416 tends to stretch a path that collapes back to a smaller diameter. Both kill animals very efficiently. One tends to produce a quicker result - and surprisingly that one is the 375 with less velocity and weight not to mention a lot less recoil, muzzle rise and noise.

The lessons I have learned from real life experimentation, actual hunting and observation of hundred of clients is that you just never know exactly how a cartridge/component combination is going to behave unless you actully use it many times and get a consistent result. The only way to compare it to something else it to give the cartridge/component combo you want to compare the same testing and an equal number of opportunities in hunting situations. The one that consistently performs in the manner that is most advantageous to you is the one to use. Don't worry about what armchair experts, internet chat or ballistic charts and formulas say. Seek out the cartridges and bullets, coordinate a test and make a true comparison.

Back to big bears, I'd take the 450 NE to track a wounded on in the brush due to the quick pointing and follow up shot and then the weight to hit the bear over the head with. But I wouldnt drag that rifle around bear hunting. I'd be comfortable with my 45-70 staggered with punch and kodiak bullets to find one in dense cover. I can shoot 5 shots from the shoulder very rapidly and accurate enough - ask any one here that has seen my shoot the charging buffalo 5 times in 3 seconds. One thing that works in my favor is that I can wait until the animal is 10 yards from me - you dont get used to it you just do it. If I'm going to hunt a big bear I will shoot when there is a clear shot, room for a possible follow up and daylight to kill. My guide will have permission to back me up if the bear is going to make it to cover. I'd feel good with my 35 Whelen with 250 grs or a 375 H&H - or some unknown rifle between those power levels if I discover I can shoot it well.

If I want bear "defense" while engaged in other activities, the cartrige would be less important to me than the capacity and ease of use. You are not standing your ground killing a bear in this case, you are buying time and creating distance. It is not the same as preparing to hunt a bear at all.

[Don McDowell]

86er, get ahold of some real 45-70 bullets in the traditional sharps/military configuration, launch those at real 45-70 velocity and not 458 maglites, and you'll see a huge difference in penetration and performance.
Google up Bill Bagwells' Zebra, watch the video..

[madman4570]

,non

Somewhere there is a "sweet spot" This is sometimes attributed to the "bubble effect" or "energy projection" in front of the bullet. The only fair comparison is the same exact bullet at the same exact range at the same exact target but at a different velocity. I have shot my 45-70 with NF 450 grainer expanding bullets and solids going 1785 fps. That is as fast as I can get them in that cartridge. The same exact bullets in my 450 NE will go 2120 fps. The 450 NE penetrates 20-30% more depending on the substance it hits, with both bullets. The same 32 grain bullet in my .22 short goes 946 fps and 1254 in .22 LR. The LR penetrates 10-15% more depending on the substance. These are soft lead bullets (of course). My 35 Rem with 22" barrel shoots 200 gr CL's at 2020 fps. My 35 Whelen launches them at 2650 fps. The 35 Rem penetrates 8 wet phone books while the 35 Whelen penetrates 14 (at the same range). So my conclusions have been that slower velocity does not always = more penetration when the same exact bullet and range are used. Once in a while it can be true. A 7mm-08 sends the 150 gr Scirroco @2700 fps and a 7mm Mag sends the same bullet 3115 fps. At 100 yds, the 7mm-08 penetrates 25% more! However at 200 yds the 7mm Mag penetrates 30-35% more! At the closer range the Mag is going fast enough to upset the bullet rapidly and catostrophically which inhibits penetration compared to a slower speed. At 200 yds though, the Mag is still going faster, but not enough to upset the bullet to where it will reduce penetration to a level below the slower velocity.

Looking at a different bullet style and mechanism, I use Barnes X tipped in my muzzleloader. At 1600 fps impact the petals remain intact and the penetration is 18" in ballistic media. At 1950 fps impact the petals either break off or fold back making the profile of the projectile smaller - and it penetrates 22.5". So here again, more velocity-same projectile = more penetration.

Now let's look at 3 totally different bullets within one caliber. In Zambia I used the 45-70 with 540 gr Hammerhead, 430 Punch and 450 Kodiak. The 540 is hardcast, the 430 is brass with lead in the base and the 450 is a heavy copper jacket with lead core. The velocity was with slightly different for each other - 1534, 1756 and 1710 respectively. The lead bullet changed profile drastically as it became rounded on the nose, wider and lost more than half it's weight. The 430 actually forced the lead forward into the nose area and swelled the bullet at the ogive slightly. The 450 gr surprisingly mushroomed severely. These were all fired into Cape Buffalo with similar shot placement at 40 yards (give or take no more than 8 yards between them). They all killed the buffalo. The 430 Punch penetrated the most, almost from end to end for a total of about 44". The 540 Hammerhead penetrated 29". The 450 Kodiak only went 22"! The Game Ranger got mad about the 540 grain performance and took all my cartridges from me and threw them in the river. He was not happy about the Kodiaks but said we could use them only as a first shot on a standing buffalo (he considered them a compromise between a soft/expanding bullet and a solid). The Punch bullet was clearly more than adequate for buffalo and performed as a solid should with 100% weight retention and straight line penetration. Funny, it was the lightest and fastest of the projectiles - and it proved itself on a brain shot elephant too.

Lastly, I will compare two totally different bullets from different calibers. The 375 H&H can get a 380 grain Rhino bullet going 2200 fps. A 416 Rem Mag can get a 400 gr A Frame going 2550 fps (more if you load it as such). As far as stopping, the 380 grain .375 has proved on over a dozen animals now to the be the better choice. The very long bullet allows the petals for peel for 2/3 the length and make a final projectile that is over an inch wide and makes an X with sharp edges on each petal. The bonding, thick jacket and solid shank keep the weight up over 90%. Penetration is outstanding. The 416 Rem Mag bullet on impact flattens the A Frame down 1/2 way to where the "divider" is. The front become dome shaped (the mushroom). They are typically .70 - .82 diameter and retain about 92% weight. The penetration is close to that of the 375-380 Rhinos. However, the 380's have made much more of a mess of the insides of the animal, cutting a wide path and keeping an open tunnel, where the 416 tends to stretch a path that collapes back to a smaller diameter. Both kill animals very efficiently. One tends to produce a quicker result - and surprisingly that one is the 375 with less velocity and weight not to mention a lot less recoil, muzzle rise and noise.

The lessons I have learned from real life experimentation, actual hunting and observation of hundred of clients is that you just never know exactly how a cartridge/component combination is going to behave unless you actully use it many times and get a consistent result. The only way to compare it to something else it to give the cartridge/component combo you want to compare the same testing and an equal number of opportunities in hunting situations. The one that consistently performs in the manner that is most advantageous to you is the one to use. Don't worry about what armchair experts, internet chat or ballistic charts and formulas say. Seek out the cartridges and bullets, coordinate a test and make a true comparison.

Back to big bears, I'd take the 450 NE to track a wounded on in the brush due to the quick pointing and follow up shot and then the weight to hit the bear over the head with. But I wouldnt drag that rifle around bear hunting. I'd be comfortable with my 45-70 staggered with punch and kodiak bullets to find one in dense cover. I can shoot 5 shots from the shoulder very rapidly and accurate enough - ask any one here that has seen my shoot the charging buffalo 5 times in 3 seconds. One thing that works in my favor is that I can wait until the animal is 10 yards from me - you dont get used to it you just do it. If I'm going to hunt a big bear I will shoot when there is a clear shot, room for a possible follow up and daylight to kill. My guide will have permission to back me up if the bear is going to make it to cover. I'd feel good with my 35 Whelen with 250 grs or a 375 H&H - or some unknown rifle between those power levels if I discover I can shoot it well.

If I want bear "defense" while engaged in other activities, the cartrige would be less important to me than the capacity and ease of use. You are not standing your ground killing a bear in this case, you are buying time and creating distance. It is not the same as preparing to hunt a bear at all.

Extremely interesting stuff Joe!
You know your stuff,and I try to comprehend your vast explanations/experience etc.
Makes sense.
So, it sounds like the bullet makeup has the major factor. And if that bullet design is one that stays intact(less deformity)velocity follows with it????????
In your 4th paragraph I would assume "if" that 380gr 375H&H(2200fps) and that 400gr 416 Rem Mag(2550fps)both had (same style turned brass,non-petal punch bullets)the .416 would go farther ??????
It would be interesting someday to find exactly what velocity would be required to actually tear/open up one of those guys(a lot I assume) Say like that .458 430gr punch bullet.
Also interesting on first paragraph-------20%-30% more penetration in certain circumstances(like a brain shot on an elephant)could mean the difference between living and dying??????

Anyway------Thank you for your VAST knowledge you share(being a PH/Expert in this field) I will absorb what I can.
Feel like I should be sending you some tuition money for the schooling you are giving me.

Also thanks all you guys for your knowledge too (cause most is certainly more than I have)
I find this topic very interesting!

See as I am typing this my pea brain is picturing a block of wood/a hammer/a punch
If I tap the punch lightly with the hammer in the block
Or I wack it a good one(without smashing my thumb)
Which drives further into the wood.
Same energy delivering device/same delivered object/same test subject (the wood block)only difference speed of hammer head face impacting head of punch.
Now I better go eat dinner cause my little brain will forget where the table/food is ) Over absorbed!
Chances are anyway if a big Kodiak comes rushing out of the brush at 30ft breaking tree limbs/ear deafening roaring/seems like the ground is shaking----------------probably will pee my pants(no time for the other one/maybe there is)drop the gun and start to scream momma (Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa)

Later men!

[tman]

45-70's loaded to 1300fps. have been killing dangerous game since 1873. A 458 Lott will not kill anything deader than a 458 Win. New improved, faster, cartridges keep the hunting firearms industry alive. A 30-06 will kill a grizzly just as dead as a 300WM. Sensibile cartridge/bullet selection, combined with precise accuracy, trumps a 100 FPS or two.

[Don McDowell]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fqs543qxTHE

[Grizz]

Very interesting stuff Joe. Especially about the hammerheads. I thought they would perform more like a solid. Vince Lupo got convincing results with them. I wonder what accounts for all the variability.

Thanks for the real world info. Wish I could experiment on the brownies in AK, but that's frowned on now days.

Grizz

[86er]

I appreciate all this info and I respect the contributors. However, I am not sure how single shot rifles or BP are appropriate for bear encounters. I also don't see the relevance of zebra to big bear. I guess the responses have been taken over by emotion and are straying from the OP. I have data, references and details that outline the facts I stated. If anyone seriously needs. A comparison for a hunt you can PM me and ask about your cartridges for comparison. While these are not big bears I have killed 30 nuisance bears w the Dept of En Con. Started w 7 mag, went to 12g slugs and ended up w 4570. They were all dead but we couldn't risk them getting out of sight and the 4570 anchored them quicker and I could shoot more than once quickly. I used 6 kinds of ammo and settled on a 405 Kodiak BCFP @ 2000 fps. The 300 gr NP @ 1845 was great too. More instant kills than slower ammo of 300 or 405 weight but were also talking about different bullets too.

[86er]

I dug out my soft lead bullets from BP cartridges in 45-70. In 2006 we did a traditional bison hunt in KS that required BP. 3 of us each loaded different stuff but respectively we had a 386 grain bullet at 1412 fps average, a 486 grain at 1254 fps average and a 531 grain bullet at 1159 fps average. We sighted in at 100 yds and knew the trajectory to 150 yds. The outfitter has good horses and we rode up to near the 100 yd mark and then walked on the side of the horses until the bison began to get uncomfortable. Mike shot his first at 77 yards with the 386 grain. The bison walked about 50 yards before the guide said to shoot again. Another shot turned the animals and it walked another 25 yds and went down. After about a minute it rolled over on its side - dead. Both bullets hit low behind the shoulder quartering away. One went approximately 25" and it weighs 233 grains. The next somehow travelled a ways down the leg so there is no straight path to measure but it weighed 276.5 grains.

I used the 486 grain bullet. My first shot hit center of shoulder quartering to a bit at 54 yards. The bison started to run immediately. I put another just in front of the hips quartering away and then a third at the top of the ham, which broke something and put it down. A last shot at 20 yards through the low chest caused a lot of bleeding and it was dead within seconds. First bullet went 30" and weighs 244.2 grains. The second one did not exit but could not be found. The third only went 21" but it hit large bone. Weighs 193.3 grains. Last shot exited and was not found.

Robert used the mold for 550's but his dropped at 531 gr on average. He shot at 90 yards and hit center shoulder. We waited a full minute because there was blood coming out the nose. He shot again at 35 yards and hit nearly the same spot. The bull ran a ways and staggered. After about a minute if fell over and was dead. One bullet exited and one remained inside but we dont know which is which. The recovered bullet weighed 311.9 grains and penetrated about 32" and was just short of exiting.

While this has nothing to do with big bears or appropriate tools for bear hunting or defense it does illustrate the awesome power of heavy soft lead bullets and BP velocities on big animals. Also, the middle weight - middle velocity happened to retain weight and penetrate as good or better than the lighter faster and bigger heavier combo.

[Don McDowell]

86er, your experience is wonderful, but however it is not the only experience in the world, and it is in some respects rather limited. There are some of us here who gave up paid professional hunter herding before we ever saw you grace the pages of the internet. Some of us in that time of professional paid hunter herding never shot or saw shot an animal in a "fenced" condition unless it was a hog or beef intended for slaughter...We've witnessed shots that gave spectacular results from cartridges many of the "experts" deem inappropriate, to some right down dismal failures from the wonder cartridges johnny come lately bonafied experts think have the critter half processed by simply yanking on the trigger.
Now I put that link to Bill Bagwells zebra up as it is the only readily available video of his several African trips with Blackpowder loaded sharps rifles, and only put it up that folks could see that a properly placed (note that phrase and also go back and pay real close attention to that phrase as used in BigSky's post) bullet from a lowly blackpowder loaded 45-70 can have some real dramatic affect. The same can be said of smokeless powder loads going roughly the same velocity.
There are numerous accounts of well known folks that have 1 shot drops on buffalo that are extremely different from what you describe.
This entire discussion as many often do take wide and various turns, but the one remaining fact is still there and is undeniable. The 45-70 loaded in even its traditional form is more than adequate for bear.
IF A 300 GR BULLET FROM A 454 CASULL HANDGUN AT 1600 FPS IS MORE THAN ADEQUATE FOR A BEAR, THEN WHAT MAKES A 300 GR BULLET FROM A 45-70 AT THE EXACT SAME VELOCITY ONLY USING 1/3 OF THE PRESSURE NOT ADEQUATE?
So climb down off that highhorse son, you're riding him pretty hard and I wouldn't want to see him stumble and roll over you.

[86er]

I have no ego in it. And you might find me on a bull once in a while - but rarely on a horse. Whatever I have in my journal is posted for those who can use the info to make their own decisions. With some calibers and speices the info is limited to whatever amount of clients took those animals so it is no doubt a small group that may or may not be statistically significant. As for fence hunting - well I have just over 500 big game animals personally taken listed in my journal with the majority being WTD, Hogs and Black Bear but a fair sprinkling of everything under the sun. Of those, 13 animals came from a fenced environment. My clients hunting is about 50-50 contained and free-range animals with the majority of exotics being fenced. That does not detract from the terminal ballistics of cartridge/component combo. By the way, Kruger National Park, the largest public land mass in the world - is high fenced. Oh it's 100 miles one way in some spots but it is fenced. Not many people realized that. If you hunt Africa, some of Zimbabwe and Tanzania are about the only countries where you can hunt all the indigeneous species without encountering a fence. I another note, I am a big fan of BP! I hunted a few years exclusively with a sidelock muzzleloader .50 cal with lead conicals and GOEX. Actually, for lot of my hunting this year I plan to use this combo again. It does produce impressive results and it is fun to get close and experience the Ka-Boom followed by the cloud. You'll notice in 8 years on this forum I have never challenged or called-out a well articulated opinion or a reference supported by facts. I like to learn and experiment as much - or more- than the next guy! You'll rarely find me endorsing something as "the best" but I have no problem offering information that provides others with options to consider and information that would otherwise take quite a bit of effort to figure out on their own.

But this is a big bear topic. I'm not that big nor am I a bear, but I've been around 4 brown kills in the US and 2 in Russia, plus my own and quite a few black bears. Only saw one interior Grizzly ever and it was not a hunting circumstance and was a distance off. If you're targeting them their is no reason to hedge your bets. If you really think you may have a chance encounter, preparedness to fight and resistance to fight with whatever you have seem to work pretty well.

[Don McDowell]

Fine, I know an elderly gentleman and his wife that spent a number of years caretaking a herd of cattle on Kodiak Island. They were quite fond of the Marlin levergun loaded with the boring ol Lyman 425 gr bullets cast from wheelweight and a moderate charge of 3031.

The fact still remains you will have a hard time finding anybody that will disagree with taking a 454 casull or a 475 handgun after anything on this planet, yet just bring up the thought of using a 45-70 loaded to saami specs with either a 300 or 400 gr bullet and there's no shortage of goobers coming out of the woodwork castigating using such an anemic round.
That grand ol cartridge did what is does for over 100 years before it became common knowledge that it wasn't up to the task.

[tman]

If they would just come out with a 45-71. Load it to 1300 fps. with a 405 gr bullet, we would have a handgun that the gun writers would proclaim as an elephant killer. Guess we are stuck with the anemic 45-70, which they claim as a short range ,small bodied, barely adequite deer killer.

[Ji in Hawaii]

From: Randy Garrett http://www.garrettcartridges.com/penetration.html

PENETRATION: THE 45-70 & 458 MAGNUMS

The following article is based on bullet penetration test results as measured in water-saturated penetration materials (wet newspapers). Water is the primary substance of life, and constitutes about 90% of the content of all mammals. I have observed that some "testers" have chosen wood boards or dry newspapers for penetration testing material, and this is a very poor choice, which in no way simulates the characteristics of a bullet impact with animal flesh. Wood tends to channel the bullet path, and is less demonstrative of the terminal instabilities inherent to non-expanding bullets when impacting game animals, and is thus an inferior material for the testing of bullet penetration characteristics. Water-saturated penetration materials such as newspapers or ballistic gelatin are far superior with regards to their ability to demonstrate the terminal instabilities that typically occur when non-expanding bullets impact live animal flesh. - Randy Garrett

There are few things in the world of ballistics less well understood than the issues relating to comparative penetration. It is commonly believed that the faster one drives a solid bullet, the deeper the penetration. We see this all the time in the various attempts, via new calibers, to achieve higher velocity for improved performance on heavy game. The current rage among big bore shooters seems to be the 458 Lott, since it achieves a good 200-300 fps higher velocity than the 458 Winchester Magnum. It is claimed that the new 458 Lott is an improvement over the 458 Winchester Magnum since its higher velocity supposedly results in more lethal impact-effect and deeper penetration. This, it is claimed, is just the ticket for busting the heaviest game. Of course, the new 458 Lott also achieves greater kinetic energy as a result of its higher velocity, and this is also a convincing characteristic for those brave souls in pursuit of the heaviest game.

Despite all the impressive "science" deployed to reinforce the assertion that higher speed projectiles are more capable of inflicting the deep penetration and impact-effect required to reliably anchor heavy game, one finds that these assertions simply do not withstand common sense, repeatable penetration testing. In fact, if one conducts these tests, one finds that there is nothing that can be observed which supports the assertion that the faster one drives non-expanding solids the deeper they penetrate.

Very interestingly, if one takes the Hornady 500-grain .458 diameter solid bullet and compares the penetration that results from impact speeds varying from about 1500-fps to 2500-fps, one finds that the higher impact speeds produce the least penetration. When driven to about 1500-fps (as the 45-70 will do) one finds that such solids produce nearly 6-feet of penetration in wet newspapers. When the same bullet is driven to about 2100-fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Winchester Magnum) one finds that the penetration is reduced to about 4 to 4 and 1/2 feet. When one tests the same bullet at 2300-2400 fps (as is characteristic of the 458 Lott) one finds that the penetration comes up nearly 20% short of that produced by the 458 Winchester. And when one tests the same bullet at the blistering speeds characteristic of the mighty 460 Weatherby Magnum, one finds that the penetration achieved is the most shallow produced by the various 458s.

What is apparent from testing is that penetration stops increasing at impact speeds above about 1250-1300 fps. When the impact speeds significantly surpass about 1600-fps, there is a very definite and measurable decrease in penetration depth. This raises some interesting issues regarding the relationship between kinetic energy generation and impact-effect. Although higher velocity projectiles always generate more kinetic energy they clearly do not produce deeper penetration, and when the velocities reach the levels common to today's magnums, the increases in velocity result in significantly reduced penetration. Simply stated, the faster they strike the faster they stop.

Fortunately for all of us who shoot the 45-70, it can be considered to be the deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers. This is not due to any particular inherent superiority, but due to the 45-70's "inability" to achieve the velocity with heavy bullets that leads to decreases in penetration. The reasons why high impact speeds reduce penetration are not well understood. However, anyone who takes the time to run comparative penetration tests will find that those of us who pack a good 45-70 with heavy bullets need not take a back seat to any other 458 caliber, especially when the game is heavy and the penetration requirements are great.

- Randy Garrett

[madman4570]

I have to say-------------------------------------------

Of anybody (anybody)I know of------about this topic
Joe(86er)from my view I have to put(on the top rung) I mean this man(a PH)sharing his precious time with us normal(shooters)has delivered to us probably the most detailed/proven/facts/pics/details/results of any summary about this stuff I have ever seen.

I have dealt with Joe(bought stuff from Joe)he has GIVEN me stuff/he has given me extra advice again and again and many times pm'd me(no charge/his time etc) (all this without one time indicating anything but the deepest/most sensitive respect)

Trust me,Joe does not just throw words out there for bullsh##(he backs up everything he says)he is not stubborn/if someone shows him facts he will absorb it and draw a conclusion and freely share that.

Don't know about yall but I feel so blessed to have this man(put up with some wannabe like myself)

I just get a little jealous that I wish I had his talent at many of the things he does.(I consider him a mentor)
When I go to Texas/Africa/ends of the earth---if I get to choose a PH for myself/my family it will be him!

High on a horse ??? he says he don't ride much---so I will put him high on a pedestal!

[Grizz]

I take Joe at his word. He seems to care about accurate information and I trust his experience. I have no reason not to believe him. It would be churlish to counter his experience with my theories. I am glad to learn what you've related to us Joe.

Grizz

[Don McDowell]

If they would just come out with a 45-71. Load it to 1300 fps. with a 405 gr bullet, we would have a handgun that the gun writers would proclaim as an elephant killer. Guess we are stuck with the anemic 45-70, which they claim as a short range ,small bodied, barely adequite deer killer.

Ain't that the truth.

In Ganjiro's post concerning the 500 gr hornady bullet,,, that thing is a jacketed version of the 500 gr government bullet. Near as I know or have heard of,noone has ever recovered a cast 500 gr bullet from the 45-70 at "trapdoor" velocity from any bison shot broadside under 100 yds. I do also have good info about a 480 gr bullet from a Marlin at bp velocity going length wise thru a buff at 80 yds.
Will the 45-70 kill a bear? darn straights it will.

[Ji in Hawaii]

Here's some interesting reading:

http://www.the4570inafrica.blogspot.com/
http://www.leverguns.com/articles/lupo/lupo.htm

[hightime]

Click, click......??

[getitdone1]

I tend to think the old 405 gr factory load and equivalent would do as well on a charging bear as anything. It does very well with gallon water jugs and a lot better--penetration wise--than hot 400 gr Barnes Original load. The recoil difference (and hence recovery time) between these two loads is substantial. Fractions of a second between shots can make a difference.

As we've discussed before--ONLY a brain shot will stop a charging bear quickly and for sure--no matter what the gun or load. My guess would be a slower moving bullet would have less tendency to glance off of bear's (slanted) forehead than faster bullets. I read about a guy who shot a charging grizzly with his 375 H&H and bullet glanced off of bears head. Luckily the bear turned and left the area. Bullets--at the right angle--will glance off of water so easy to see--at a certain angle--why they'd glance off of a large animals head. A rare accurance, I know, but I believe it. Believe others here have mentioned having bullets bounce off of bone.

I've mentioned Jack Turner, inland about 60 miles from Bella Coola, B.C., who shot a charging, record sized grizzly with his 30-30 Winchester 94. Brain shot and bear died instantly and only a few feet away. Many years later, after he had moved to a small settlement, he was going to feed his daughter's dog when a grizzly attacked him and tore off an ear. Luckily it left before doing more damage. Jack's father-in-law, Ralph Edwards, said he shot 50 grizzlies and then stopped counting. Ralph used a Remington model 8 chambered for the 35 Remington cartridge.

I've said most all of this before but know some here have not read my former posts.

At a distance I'd prefer a medium tough (Nosler for one.) and fast bullet for heart-lung shot--on anything. 7mm Rem mag, etc.

As we keep saying: Shot placement is the most important thing--assuming proper bullet for game hunted.

If I had to hunt grizzlies on a daily bases making the odds of getting mauled or killed very high, I'd use the most reliable semi-auto 12 ga shotgun loaded with Brenneke slugs. Or, a reliable semi-auto rifle with tough bullets. (Must add, reliable and KEEP it reliable with a thorough knowledge of the gun.) George W. Folta, 'Alaska's Bear Hunting Judge' killed over 200 brown/grizzlies, finally settled for the M1 Garand 30-06 after using a Remington model 8 semi-auto chambered for the 35 Remington for years. Two reliable semi-autos, for sure. No doubt to me the 30-06 was a real improvement over the 35 Remington if he was using the right bullets. The book: "Of Bench and Bears: Alaska's Bear Hunting Judge." He had some close calls. Over 40 years of bear hunting.

Don