Stupid question, but I just gotta ask - forest fires E vs W

[J Miller]

Year after year I watch the news and read about the forest and prairie and wild fires out west.
There is almost never a mention of a forest fire or wild fire back in the mid west or east.

Now the stupid part, why?

There is forests all over the place back here. Why don't they burn too?

Curious minds wanna know.

Joe

[shooter]

Conditions are generally not as conducive to wildfires back east. There isn't nearly as much wilderness, and fires don't have a chance to get started good. Also it's not as dry and windy back east as it is in the west. The dry air and fierce winds play a huge factor in spreading wildfires into uncontrollable rages.

[DixieBoy]

Joe - That's a darn good question. I'll hazard a guess, but that's all it is. Maybe it's because the forests out west are subject to the idiocy of the Forest Service (Dept. of Interior) to a greater degree than the forests back east ? I really don't know, but it seems like everyone BUT the Forest Service and a bunch of whack-a-doodle "enviornmentalists" understand that forests need to be managed in a way that does not allow even naturally occuring fires to devastate whole regions.

On the other thread about the fires it seems like guys like Buck Elliot and Don McDowell understand more about how forests should be managed than the people in charge. Guys who've lived out there for decades and know what they're talking about. Why the government sets such stupid policies in place, leaving everyone else to deal with the damage that the idiots have allowed to happen, and we continue to "allow" these people to get away with it ... well, I guess that's another question, and I don't want to have your question thrown into the political section.

Anyway, I'm open to any ideas about Joe Miller's question too. - DixieBoy

[Bullard4075]

It is because of Global Warming and it is all President Bush's fault.

Things will all be fixed when ObamaTax kicks in.

I suspect the west overall has much lower humidity over a longer period of time allowing the
fuel (grass and trees) to dry to a much greater degree. Much larger forests and grasslands
must play a roll also. Our worst fire seasons tend to be after a wet spring followed by a hot
dry period. The wet spring grows the grass and underbrush that when dried (especially by a hot,dry
wind) tends to be the "tinder" for the next lightning strike or careless human.

I do remember fighting some pretty good fires in Florida though.

[Cliff]

Most of the problems are due to lack of proper management of forests. If you let undergrowth build up, don't remove dead trees and litter from the trees, it creates the enviorment for out of control forest fires. Look at someplace like Germany. Their forests are kept clean, I do believe the people in charge have individual names for each and every tree and treat them like their children. You watch them cut and trim trees, but come back a few days later, all the debris from the harvesting of trees is gone. Nothing is waisted. A lot of their forests are like parks due to this style of management. A lot of treehuggers here in the states want everything left to nature to take care of, hench big fires. Here in Florida they found safe burns properly controlled lead to less out of control fires and healthier forests.
JUST SAYING, I could be wrong.......

[Don McDowell]

Joe for the most part we don't get but half maybe a third or less of the rain fall of the eastern forests, the humidity is much lower. It's not uncommon here to be in the middle of a frogdrownder rain and the rh will barely be over 90%.
Combine all that and add in that some of these big fires actually start to breed their own weather and wind and things can get out of hand real quick.
The difference in forest vegetation adds alot as well , here we have mostly pine,juniper, spruce etc and those have higher sap content than many conifers , so when a fire gets hot and gets past the epideral of the tree they can almost explode out the top and throw balls of burning sap and bark sometimes as far as a half mile.

[JReed]

We have fires all summer down here in North Carolina. Thing is the wild spaces here are much smaller then out west so when one pops up it is easier for the forestry service to get under control.

[RIHMFIRE]

We have just as many forest fires here in florida as out west....
The problem is the idiots in charge....and mostly transplanted yankees who
refuse to put up with the control burns, and smoke, that were very common
here in the south. Control burns were to get rid of the under brush and ladder fuel
and kick start new growth below for wildlife and to regenerate the pine forests..
Control burns were conducted every couple of years, in most pine plantations...

The bad part is, if you dont do the control burns...and the underbrush gets real thick,
and the palmetto get out of hand, and then we have an extensive drought..
thats when things get out of hand..

Northern forest do not have nearly the underbrush as down south...
due to the lush canopies...so there is very little to burn except dead leaves,
grasses, some thickets and mountain laurels.....Theres no ladder fuel to get the
fire to the canopy...

[Pitchy]

Most of the problems are due to lack of proper management of forests. If you let undergrowth build up, don't remove dead trees and litter from the trees, it creates the enviorment for out of control forest fires. Look at someplace like Germany. Their forests are kept clean, I do believe the people in charge have individual names for each and every tree and treat them like their children. You watch them cut and trim trees, but come back a few days later, all the debris from the harvesting of trees is gone. Nothing is waisted. A lot of their forests are like parks due to this style of management. A lot of treehuggers here in the states want everything left to nature to take care of, hench big fires. Here in Florida they found safe burns properly controlled lead to less out of control fires and healthier forests.
JUST SAYING, I could be wrong.......

Agree and one of these years northern MN is going to have a drought and the whole forest is going to burn.

[FWiedner]

I think it's because of the air currents.

The east and mid-west just s*ck.

[Booger Bill]

I once had a friend in california pick up a load of dead wood from the ground. A lady forest ranger made him put it back! I live in utah and the bark beetle has killed a lot of trees. The way I read it, the forests got too thick because of logging restrictions. That causes the trees to have thinner bark. Thinner bark means easier eats to the beetles. The beetles kill the trees causeing fuel for fires. There are other factors. First the mountains are very steep and difficult to get into much less some rugged canyons lit up by lighting strikes. Here we get daily high winds in the afternoons due to the high heat and mountaines terrain. Dry heat, wind and small thunderstorms in the afternoons at the higher elevations. The mountains get more snow than the lower elevations and that causes growth. The lower elevation gets dead grass with the heat that can take off like a bomb. Here they now are claiming a lot of fires were caused by target shooters. I dont know how much of that is truth. I have wondered how many fires are caused by threw out bottles and glass that can act like a magnifing glass? Back east I doubt they have the many miles of woods that we do here in these mountain ranges. Back there you also have far more roads and farms that are fire breaks. When I was young 52 years ago I did a season of fire fighting with the NPS. They were just starting to use helicopters then. I worked with them a lot that season. I was sent to sequia NP. They had a huge fire going that I was told was started by a wheel comeing off a trailer that the brakes had started a tire on fire. It rolled down the canyon. Reminds me, I remember a report where johnny cash started a fire in california while camping. Wonder if that is how he come to record that song, I fell into a burning ring of fire? The vast majority of fires out here are caused by lighting strikes. When I was doing it we got our stuff put together durring a lighting storm because we KNEW we were going! Thank God for helicopters!

[InTheWoods]

I know that in Missouri, most of our woodland fires pretty much just burn the leaf litter and other dead branch debris on the ground. Our forests are mostly oak/hickory dominant, not trees that catch fire readily when alive. The only standing trees that burn well are those that are dead. We don't have large tracks of conifers that burn in their entirety sending burning embers across the landscape to quickly spread more fire. I have been on several controlled woodland burns in our area and they are usually quite benign and easy to control (relative to those in the west, anyway).

That said, we did have a 600 acre fire in the Ozarks a few days ago. Still nothing like the fast moving SCARY fires of the west.

[Thunder50]

As said, I think the higher humidity in the East vs low here in the West (5-10% normal). Also the type of trees, conifers vs deciduous(SP?) trees . Lots of beetle kill trees here, but greenies don't want you logging them cause you have to make roads to get them.

Wonder how much the fires/smoke contribute to global warming? Thank the greenies for that.

[ollogger]

In the late 70s it was real dry in Wisconsin & down by Black River Falls there was a fire that burnt over 150,000 acres
mostly pine & pin oak,that the bigest i recall, farther north theres over 10,000 lakes & lots of rivers & swamps
all that can & will slow fires, Having lived in the west for 25years ive come to a understanding that dry in Wisconsin
would be way above average precepation for here, Ive had less than 1 inch here in 6 months thats dry !
Wis. has many millions of acres of timber, the state, countys & private lands also alot of timber co. & paper co. do a great job of managing the timber, but the NF there & across the west is a dang joke,


I am a old logger

[Buck Elliott]

Just to help keep the "idiots" sorted out... The Forest Service is a branch of the Dept of Agriculture, while the National Park Sevice and BLM fall under direction of the Department of the Interior, along with BIA, and a few other "services.."

The overall ecology of Western forests is very different from what you find back east, with mixtures of lodgepole, pinion and limber pine, along with juniper, and in Utah particularly, lots of scrub oak and maple.. The ground under a mature conifer forest in the West is heavily littered with dead wood -- fallen branches, deadfall masts, etc, and as much as several FEET of "duff," composed mostly of dead needles from the trees.. With such low humidity, as we are experiencing this season, the forest floor and overstory are like a powder keg, just waiting for a spark!

The west is also comprised of huge tracts of mountainous forested land, largely now "roadless," thanks to our well-meaning, know-nothing, tree-humping "friends," mostly of the leftist, enviro-wacko persuasion, but certainly not exclusive to that mentality.. We need to do a much better job of educating the folks who live here, and hunt here, as to what really comprises a healthy, sustainable habitat, for the forest itself, and for animals, birds, fish and humans; we have to recognize that the policies of the "green" movement have only served to blacken huge expanses of the West, which they then use to their own, twisted,political advantage, perpetuatng the destruction of habitat, job opportunities and a lifestyle that the do not understand and therefore abhor..

[Blaine]

Just to help keep the "idiots" sorted out... The Forest Service is a branch of the Dept of Agriculture, while the National Park Sevice and BLM fall under direction of the Department of the Interior, along with BIA, and a few other "services.."

The overall ecology of Western forests is very different from what you find back east, with mixtures of lodgepole, pinion and limber pine, along with juniper, and in Utah particularly, lots of scrub oak and maple.. The ground under a mature conifer forest in the West is heavily littered with dead wood -- fallen branches, deadfall masts, etc, and as much as several FEET of "duff," composed mostly of dead needles from the trees.. With such low humidity, as we are experiencing this season, the forest floor and overstory are like a powder keg, just waiting for a spark!

The west is also comprised of huge tracts of mountainous forested land, largely now "roadless," thanks to our well-meaning, know-nothing, tree-humping "friends," mostly of the leftist, enviro-wacko persuasion, but certainly not exclusive to that mentality.. We need to do a much better job of educating the folks who live here, and hunt here, as to what really comprises a healthy, sustainable habitat, for the forest itself, and for animals, birds, fish and humans; we have to recognize that the policies of the "green" movement have only served to blacken huge expanses of the West, which they then use to their own, twisted,political advantage, perpetuatng the destruction of habitat, job opportunities and a lifestyle that the do not understand and therefore abhor..

What he said.

[bdhold]

don't forget, they have dry electrical storms in the west - no such thing in the east.

[Blaine]

don't forget, they have dry electrical storms in the west - no such thing in the east.

The pine and fir sap burns like gas, but they have those down south, too...it's just real, real dry out here most of the time. Even around Seattle, etc, after the 4th of July thru Oct sometimes....

[bdhold]

the winds also funnel through the mountains.

[earlmck]

the government sets such stupid policies in place, leaving everyone else to deal with the damage that the idiots have allowed to happen, and we continue to "allow" these people to get away with it ...

DixieBoy has it nailed. The forests in the west are nearly all federal controlled land, whether Dept. of Agriculture (USFS) or Dept. of Interior (BLM and NPS). A few greeny lawsuits got the bureaucracy wound and bound and the last of the agency people who even thought they were supposed to "manage the land" and had any clue how to do that became totally disgusted and have now been retired for over 10 years. So no forest management has happened out here for over 20 years, with consequent huge fuel build-up. That's the situation that Buck and Don have posted about.

But the biggest factor, and this hasn't been mentioned, is what has happened with the fire-control portion of all the agencies. This group has combined into "Inter-Agency" super-bureaucracy in which the people who are the least capable of putting out fire rise the quickest up the promotion ladder until they now control it all.

Here's how that happens: story of 2 different fire-control-officers. First FCO gets a fire start in nasty conditions and it blows up the first day. He gets everybody alerted, they go out that first night, establish their control line, get the backfire burned, and next day the big nasty fire burns up to the black line and goes out. Media folks go home in disgust 'cause the fire just kinda' fizzled. No news.

Second FCO gets a fire start in nasty conditions and it blows up the first day. He alerts the media and gets a lot of footage of hot, dirty fire fighters being pushed around by the raging fire. They go home and sleep that night and leave a skeleton crew to "keep tabs" on the nasty blaze. The next day is worse and they call on the regional teams to come. Start building the big fire camp. Media gets footage of hot, dirty fire fighters plus dramatic shots of tankers dropping retardant. Fire fighters from around the region begin coming in and a lot of work and planning and coordination goes into getting them set up in fire camp where they can get rested up at night for the next day's loosing effort in the fight. Fire gets much larger, more great media footage. We have a huge fire camp, fire fighters from all over, many businesses making good bucks supplying food and water and transportation and all sorts of supplies to the fire fighters. Fire gets much larger; media gets great footage, start to get some play in the national news. We have a "Project Fire". Fire rages, media gets more wonderful footage, fire fighters get great overtime and fire pay, contractors get great profits from supplying the fighters all they need. Finally the weather changes and the fire gets blown back on itself and can get put out by all the fire-fighters working in the daytime.

Fire job in Supervisors Office comes vacant, both our fire fellows apply. First FCO just has experience with the little fires. Second FCO has experience with huge "Project Fires". Guess who gets the job. And this has been going on for around 30 years now. The very last of the old boys who know how to fight a big hot fire are low in the organization, disgusted, and will be retiring within the next year or two. We in the West are SCREWED and you folks in the east will get the kind ministrations from this new fire-bureaucrat next time you need 'em, so don't get too smug.

[El Chivo]

Water. Back east everything is always WET.