Older Eyes/ Aperture sights...

[Hankster]

I have a Rossi 92 .357 carbine. It has the NKJ "safety replacement" peep on it. With 38's at 25 yds. It can print 3 shot TOUCHING hole groups. But, at 50 yds... The front sight/target fuzzes up on me when trying to focus.. and the groups expand correspondingly. Didn't even Bother with 100yds! I did notice, the groups tightened with the sun out (range is in the woods) and open up a bit, when behind the clouds, but I know the Spread/distance issue is not all caused by light. With my Bi-Focals... either I see "out there" good, of the "SIGHTS good"....

The question I have is, Did I screw myself, buying a Short barreled Gun over a LONG one?? Would a 20, or 24 inch sight radius HELP here?? Or am I doomed to (gag) scope it??? Do NOT want to abandon the 357 lever concept... But a Modern looking scope on a 92 seems like Sacrilege.. any insight from anyone else who's dealt with this??
Thanks!

[Blaine]

Ignore the back "peep" Just look thru it and focus on the front sight, and place it on a slightly fuzzy target...that seems to be fairly common way to do it. I can use a leaf sight, and make it work that way, too....FWIW, I can group at 100 yards with a Ghost Ring just as good as with a 2.5x scout scope....Just trust that your eye WILL find the exact center of that peep, because that's where the light is strongest, and your eye will go there all by itself. Honest.

[junkbug]

I have not tried this myself (yet) but the old legend is that Kentuky rifles had long barrels in part so that the REAR sight could be placed fairly far away from the eye. Then the rest of the barrel legnth gave a reasonable sight radius. Also, I have heard from shooters of Civil War replica muskets that the 2 band Enfield replica is a particular target shooting favorite, because the rear sight is farther from the eye than any other approved Civil War replica.

You can try mounting an iron sight in your existing dovetail, but with the sight leaf going away from the action, instead of towards it. Perhaps it won't help, but it is inexpensive enough to give a try with a few boxes of ammo.

Good luck.

[jeepnik]

I doubt the longer sight radius would help. As Blaine mentioned, the XS ghost ring works pretty well. When we get older our eyes just aren't as flexible, so the switching we used to do without notice, from one focal plain to another, gets pretty much impossible. I'm pretty much to a point where anything beyond 75 yds needs either a low powered scope or a holo/red dot sight.

On the plus side, I've found I can carry the shorter/lighter carbines better than I can rifles these days. Getting to that about that sixth decade no matter what I do, I seem to be loosing stamina.

Sucks getting older (note I didn't say old, cuz I ain't that by half).

[Hankster]

Hmm, maybe unscrew the SMALL aperture, and run with the bigger one?? May have to give it a try tomorrow...didn't try that yet. It's TOO HOT to go out right now! LOL!

[InTheWoods]

Actually, the smaller aperture will give you a sharper front sight picture under good lighting conditions.

Placing a rear sight further down the barrel of a long rifle helps only if we are talking about notch rear sights. Aperture sights are best placed as close to the eye as possible because you are supposed to look through them, not at them. Now a long barrel helps with aperture sights too, but it is because the FRONT sight is further away from the eye.

[AJMD429]

There are 'theoretical' reasons a small OR larger aperture might work better, so best bet is just to try both.

If all else fails, a little Burris Fastfire-II could work well, but I think if you keep experimenting, you'll find a 'peep' that works.

You might try a tang sight, which slightly increases sight radius, and the closer-to-eye aperture is easier to ignore for some, OR you might try a Marble's Bullseye sight way up there on the barrel; some find it fast and yet accurate as well.

Lots of it is like said above - you want to basically be 'ignoring' the rear aperture.

If you check this thread out, I've many pictures of various aperture sights, and some taken THROUGH the sights actually do a decent job of showing what they look like to my eyes, at least.

Check this thread out - link - Aperture Sights

[OJ]

Aperture sights work for me and my 86 year old eyes - seeing 20/30/ after removal of cataracts but i have a very small amount of ARMD (age related macular degeneration) meaning there is that very small spot in the center of vision of my right eye - unfortunately, that just happens to be where the front sights on my Colt 45 acp pistols happen to be. Using the aperture sights on my rifles goes a long way helping that - and yes - Jeff Cooper maintained ghost ring sights are at least as accurate as the smaller aperture and give the shooter faster locating the target - that's been my experience also.









This rimfire version of the Williams FP sights attaches to the scope grooves most rimfire rifles have -

And, XS Sights makes a great ghost ring replacement for the M1A - rear aperture is twice the diameter of the stock sights.



Front sights on my 45s with a ramped rear seem to be more visible for me. Also should add the Williams FP (fool proof) aperture sights do require a little taller front sight - XS makes some very nice ones .5" tall -



This one in one of my Winchester 94 rifles.

[guido4198]

All of us who face the "Aging eyes" issue struggle to figure out what works best for each individual situation. There have been several ideas already posted. Here's a couple more that have worked for me.
1. Take a look at the Merit Optical Attachment. Brownells sells them. I have one, and it really helps. Might not be for everyone...but it works for me.
2. Another approach I would recommend, once again....that has worked for me...is to discuss your shooting related vision issues with a good optometrist, preferably one with experience in serving shooters. I've used Bud Decot since the 1980's for all my competitive shooting eyewear needs. Their premier shooting glasses feature easily removable lenses. When I started having "issues" I gave'em a call. They had my prescription on file. The guy I spoke with suggested that they could make a new lense for my "Strong eye" that would show my sights more clearly. He told me to put it in the frame, leave the current "weak eye" lense as it is, and keep both eyes open( which I always do anyhow).
What he told me was with both eyes open.."the brain will figure it out".
Takes a little getting used to, but it works.
Of course...a red dot also REALLY helps. Put one on my Thompson Contender and got right back to shooting excellent long-range groups again.
There's a lot of ways to address the problem...find the ones that work for you, and KEEP SHOOTING...!!
Hope this helps.

[M. M. Wright]

+1 on the Merit device. Also, I often replace the aperture with a target version with a tiny hole. This gives a sharper image of the front sight and usually the target too.

[Pete44ru]

The front sight/target fuzzes up on me when trying to focus..

With all due respect, a peep sight shooter (tang or receiver peep) should be focusing ONLY on the front sight, period.

As Blaine said, the peep's aperture is merely looked "through", not "at", without actually seeing it or aligning the front sight in it - and the front sight bead/top placed "on target", with the target understandably a little out of focus.

If you're doing so, AND still losing the front sight in a shaded condition, it sounds like a front sight bead of a different nature (Gold bead, Ivory Bead, Fiber Optic, whatever) would benefit.


.

[bdhold]

all my rear apertures have a fine wire centering grid - what it really does is give you an astigmatism on the front blade until it's perfectly centered in the aperture.

[getitdone1]

all my rear apertures have a fine wire centering grid - what it really does is give you an astigmatism on the front blade until it's perfectly centered in the aperture.

bulldog,

Would it be possible for you to provide a picture of that rear sight with wire grid? Sounds interesting and never heard of it.

Don

[bdhold]

hi Don,
I don't have an aperture handy here today, but I should have no problem photographing one on a microscope here in my office. I'll try to remember for tomorrow.
Regards,
Ron

[blackhawk44]

Go back to a couple of OJ's pics and check the front sights. That white striped front sight blade from XS has helped me on several rifles and is now the only front blade I consider. Its much cleaner and sharper than plain blades, beads or glow sights. That blade and a receiver (peep) rear sight are what you need.

I understand your aging problem, having worn glasses since age 13. I'm now 63 with trifocals. I actually only need bifocal, but got the idea a number of years ago to add a midrange to my glass'. I had the techs adjust the center lens to focus near my extended arm, just right for handguns and most rifle sights. Its also handy for computer sceens. Its something to think about for your next pair.

[jhrosier]

The Merit Master Disk is a good investment. I use the smaller one on my rifles.
The size adjustment allows me to 'tune' my sights for the range conditions.
I have only one and move it from gun to gun.

Jack

[Gobblerforge]

Some time ago a friend introduced me to a diopter where a small adhesive apature is put on your shooting glasses. Then looking through it, the rear sight, the front sight and the target were all more in focus. Really cool.
Gobbler

[jhrosier]

Some time ago a friend introduced me to a diopter where a small adhesive apature is put on your shooting glasses. Then looking through it, the rear sight, the front sight and the target were all more in focus. Really cool.
Gobbler

That sounds like the Eyepal : http://www.eyepalusa.com/

Jack

[COSteve]

Deleted

[earlmck]

Great topic for the forum, folks. I'm going to try some of these ideas: get me that front blade with white line, a Merit aperture to swap around, and Steve's black hole on the glasses -- maybe I can start whupping up on the grandkids again

[Steelbanger]

[quote="OJ"]Aperture sights work for me and my 86 year old eyes - seeing 20/30/ after removal of cataracts

Wow, you're my idol. I'm barely into my 70's and have been having trouble shooting irons for at least 6-8 years. I keep trying though and once in a while I shoot a good match, but most, although fun, are disappointing to me. I've been switching all my open sighted rifles to large bead front sights and the largest aperture that doesn't allow the front sight to fade away. My opinion is that a globe front sight works best for most shooters but not for me.

The current issue of Shooting Sports USA, a publication of the National Rifle Association Shooting Sports USA - July 2012 has an article pertaining to aperture sights and what we see through them. Interesting to read.

Edit: Forgot the link - http://www.nxtbook.com/nxtbooks/nra/ssusa_201207/#/24

[KCSO]

Since I am currently working on a Martini target rifle and am setting up the sights this is right close to home. For field hunting with peep sights I want a fairly large hole say 1/16 inch or larger and towards dark a full 3/16th is ok. For the front for hunting I want a small gold bead or a plain narrow flat faced blade. For target work I prefer a flat topped bllade and I dial my hole (rear apreture) as small as Ii can get away with in the availablle light. Due to a bad right eye I am having to use either a peep or a scope for most of my shooting now and am gettting back to being use too the peep. For many years most of my competition was with open sight muzzleloaders and pistols and so the peeps I used for small bore were put away unused. I wish I could find my Meritt disk for my glasses as that also helped keep that front sight sharp and clear.

[deafrn]

The question I have is, Did I screw myself, buying a Short barreled Gun over a LONG one?? Would a 20, or 24 inch sight radius HELP here?? Or am I doomed to (gag) scope it??? Do NOT want to abandon the 357 lever concept... But a Modern looking scope on a 92 seems like Sacrilege.. any insight from anyone else who's dealt with this??
Thanks!

I am still trying to figure out whether or not I administered myself a good screwing with the last two 16" trappers I bought knowing full well that I was going to have some problems picking up the front sight. With my new glasses, front sight blades have become almost impossible to use on any target smaller than a barn.

(Not a middling barn, but a good-sized one... and not too far away.)

So would an identically-equipped gun with a 20" barrel make any difference? It didn't for me, but someone else might find that additional 4" distance from the eye to do the trick. I could detect some improvement with a similar rifle having a 24" barrel, but by cobbling up some "sights on a stick," I found that about 30" of barrel on a lever gun would allow me to get what I consider a reasonable sight picture. So depending on what sort of vision problems one has, there could be hope with longer barrels and/or smaller apertures.

Personally, I consider a 30" barrel on a pistol-caliber levergun to be way down on my list of things to carry around, right along with walking around in the woods with glasses that allow me to see a front sight but little else.

So while I may have screwed myself, I'm not sure a barrel of any reasonable length would have been all that much better. FWIW, I'm about ready to sell an unfired, NIB Miroku-made Trapper just because it would be a PITA to adapt any sort of optics to it. Knocks a bit of lustre off these "golden years," it does.

[Hankster]

We have the same issue it seems!! My upper lens... see the field out there but, the FRONT sight is not in focus... even NOT using the rear sight! Using the LOWER lens of my Bi-focals... Front sight SHARP, but seeing the Target Center at fifty and beyond creates MUCH to open a group.... or aiming Bambi past fifty yards becomes too risky to even ethically think of taking the shot. Now, switching to my Marlin M39.. with Lyman peep.... I can see better, but still not RIGHT. I picked up my Muzzle loader... and, even tho the REAR sight was hazy... with that 32 " barrel the FRONT sight, was CLEAR enough to shoot with! It was withing the lower range, of the upper lens, and allowed clear vision, from there to infinity. DARN IT!! This all became evident, when I tried shooting for the first time since LAST YEAR out back with these OPEN sight guns... and my worsened vision became evident. Using a SCOPE, I have no issues whatsoever. I plan on asking the optometrist what might be possible.... But my particular focal issues, I think will screw me from short open sighted guns from now on. Guess I'll HAVE to scope the 92.... sucks, but it BEATS not shooting at all!! So onwards we go! Never GIVE UP! Thanks for all the Ideas tho Guys... even tried the eyeglass black patch/diopter/hole deal... no go for me. Maybe someone ELSE will be able use it tho!!

[Don McDowell]

For shooting I've quit the progressive bifocals and went with the lined bifocals with the bifocal as low on the lense as you can get it. It takes a little work with your optometrist to get your script right but it's time well spent.Shooters yellow glasses are a big help. Have also quit fiddlin around with various aperature sizes and just go the big hole. Front sights I like the aperature in the globe, but with a good silver blade can shoot fairly accurate to 6-700 yds before the blade starts covering to much target.
You have to be able to focus on the front sight and the target to get anything resembling accuracy, if you can't define a specific aiming point you're just spittin in the wind and burnin components.
So work with your eye care people (polarized lenses quite expensive but really help with sight and target aquistion), find the rear aperature that lets enough light in to keep the front sight sharp and defined and still allow you to pinpoint a repeatable aiming spot on the target.

[Griff]

As I first fiddled with a tang sight in my 30's I had trouble unlearning how to aim. Into my 40's and first diagnosed w/whatever the medical term for farsightedness is, and the rear peep seemed to just disappear and I could shoot amazing groups with 'em. Now in my 60's and even the front sight is too close! But... as long as I forget about the rear peep and align the front with the target, I can hiit it. Sorta like... line up this "fuzzy thing" with that "fuzzy thing" and viola! No braggin', but adequate enough to spank the kid at shootin'! Well, every once in awhile!

[El Chivo]

a globe front sight will let you experiment with a variety of inserts which can help also. I like the Lyman wide blade for silhouette. If it gets a little fuzzy, you still center the target above it.

Another one I like, is the opposite, the superfine inserts from Brownells. They blur out on me but they are so fine that I get a second ghost ring and it's easy to center the target in there too. A good sunny day and the smallest aperture, long barrel, and tang sight all help.

I like to see the target sharply and then do "blur interpretation" for the sights. I was practicing this while handgun shooting. I get a double image of the front blade of the handgun, one low and one high. Well, the thing to do is decide which part of the blur to use. As long as you're making a consistent choice, your shooting will be consistent.

[DPris]

I have the same problem with the front sight in using apertures nowdays.

You can talk about only focussing on the blade or post all day long, but it it DOESN'T focus, that's not helpful.
In my case, I see blurred outlines that are hard to line up precisely at distances, and that's with dedicated shooting prescription lenses.
Also see a double blade outline that's very annoying.

Two things I've found help:
The tiniest aperture possible (I have the adjustable Merit apertures on a couple guns that are very useful), and going without an aperture wherever possible.
They no longer work well for me.

I actually find a GOOD (preferably flat-topped) rear with a deep squared notch and a substantial front post or blade works inifinitely better.
There's something about the way light is transmitted through the combination to my eye that gives me a clearer front post.

When I tip the barrel up slightly to place the post above the notch, it blurs out just like with an aperture. Drop the post down in the notch, it sharpens right up.

I can't use a small bead anymore, either.
The best combo I have right now is the factory rear coupled with a whiteline XS front blade on a Ruger .308 Compact Magnum boltgun.
I can get a usable sight picture even without shooting glasses.
Similar sight picture on a Rossi pump .22 and a CZ .22 boltgun.

The worst is the small bead front and two-step notch rear on other Ruger rifles.

The Merit aperture sharpens up a front blade well, but for maximum benefit it obscures a lot of the target area, it's not a ghost ring.

I'm moving away from apertures on most rifles that I can replace by a rear notch or glass.
Denis

[Canuck Bob]

I am finding this to be a growing problem as well. I had my eyes lasered a few years ago and had for the first time in my life 20/20 vision. I had a severe astigmatism and near sightedness. Now my arms are getting shorter again and my distance needs a slight correction. I am always amazed when I experiment with a peep very close to the eye. I have a few of the big disk tiny hole inserts that always got thrown in the parts box and not used again. I built a crude set-up with duct tape, yes I am a Red Green fan, on my 444.

The tiny hole looked like a train tunnel and I shoot both eyes open so the big disk was no issue. It got me thinking the rise of the tang sight might have been the scope for vintage fellows back then. One of our members also has a picture of an original Win 95 with a tang sight set so far back that the sight sits at the rear of the grip against the face of the comb cut-out. Of course recoil and eye safety is a major concern but I was wondering if anyone has tried this on a rifle? I tried to find the pics but Winchester 95 is a hopeless search term around here!

To add a bit to the discussion I noticed awhile ago some of the Euro rifles and DG open sighted versions particularly have moved the rear sight quite far forward. I don't know if it is a fad, a quicker way to align the sights for everyone, or an eyesight aid. I found a link years ago were Elmer Keith discusses express sights. He rated them faster than a peep it seems. It was influential because of his credentials. I would sure be interested to hear from some of our members on this who use the old doubles particularly.

http://www.calpappas.com/id79.html

[Ray Newman]

My prescription spectacles do not work well for rifle or pistol shooting: the front front sight is just about impossible to see; for pistol, I see two rear and two front sights.

About ten years ago, I sent off my prescription to De Cott and had a pair of shooting glasses made. The dominant eye (right) lens has the bifocal in the upper left portion of the right lens. As a result, I now see the pistol sights clearly. The lenses are ground so that when shooting a rifle, the eye looks through the center of prescription, which clears up the sight picture.

Every year or so, I send De Cott the old frames/lenses with the new prescription. De Cott grinds new lenses and places them in the old frames. Turn around time is about 10 - 14 days.

http://www.sportglasses.com/Default.asp

On one of my rifles, I have the Merit adjustable aperture on the vernier tang sight:

http://www.championshooters.com/store/p ... ductid=842

My other black powder cartridge rifles sport the more period correct MVA Hadley Adjustable Eye Cup:

http://www.montanavintagearms.com/accessories.html

An adjustable eye cup or an adjustable aperture is very handy to have as you can compensate for changing ambient light conditions by either opening or closing the aperture.

[AJMD429]

Don't forget the "Marble's Bullseye" sights - for me they have proven both fast and accurate, even though they are generally barrel-mounted. My only beef is that they are like 'factory open sights' and "drift-adjustable" for windage, which makes them harder to initially sight-in. Once sighted in, though, I pretty much only adjust the elevation, for different loads/distances.

You might find my "tons of peeps" thread (link > Tons of Peeps) of interest - it has pictures that show about what the view actually looks like to my eyes....

[hfcable]

i use aperture sights a lot. my right eye is very far sighted and the front sight is blurry.

for practice i use a clip on /flip down reading glasses .....works well with my safety shooting glasses or sunglasses.
flips up out of way. available in varioius powers so you can 'sharpen up' that front sight

here is the kind i have and where i got mine.....

http://www.debspecs.com/Bifocal-Clip-On ... P2312.aspx

you can regular or bifocal ones,

[retmech]

Merit makes a Master lens disc aperture that is adjustable and you can install a + diopter lens in it that will help sharpen the front sight. B. Jones sighting system has lenses for the Merit and Bob Jones is very helpful in getting you the right lense for what you want. I have a .6+ diopter in my Merit and at 69 yrs I can see the front sight well AND the target at 100 and 200 yds on my Win 94 with 20" BBL. The combination of adjustable aperture and lense lets you do well in all lighting conditions.
http://www.meritcorporation.com/products.html

[hfcable]

Merit makes a Master lens disc aperture that is adjustable and you can install a + diopter lens in it that will help sharpen the front sight. B. Jones sighting system has lenses for the Merit and Bob Jones is very helpful in getting you the right lense for what you want. I have a .6+ diopter in my Merit and at 69 yrs I can see the front sight well AND the target at 100 and 200 yds on my Win 94 with 20" BBL. The combination of adjustable aperture and lense lets you do well in all lighting conditions.
http://www.meritcorporation.com/products.html

thanks! i am going to try that! great idea.