1911 Back in the Military

jkbrea · Post by **jkbrea** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:16 pm

I got out of the Military the same time we started going to Beretta's and Humvees instead of Jeeps. This is good news for Colt.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/ma ... r-pistols/

It’s been called the greatest handgun ever made, and it has barely changed sine 1911, when the legendary John Browning designed it especially for the U.S. Military.

And now, the Colt .45 M1911 is making a big comeback, now that the U.S. Marines have placed a $22.5 million order for the Connecticut-made pistols.

The gun, which has been wielded on film by John Wayne and in real life by Sgt. Alvin York and Maj. Audie Murphy, was the standard-issue sidearm in the military for decades, until it was replaced by the Beretta M9 in 1985.

"It just became an iconic part of military and American history," Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told FoxNews.com.

The gun, one of the most successful pistols ever used at Camp Perry's National Matches, a competition known to be the main world event in artillery sports, has barely changed since it's creation. Dinkel says that shows the gun's "elegant design" just can't be improved on. And firearms experts agree.

"You can’t beat a .45 cartridge," Jack Lewis, firearms director for Cowan's Auctions, told FoxNews.com. "Some things are hard to replace," he said.

Colt Defense, based in Hartford, Conn., will supply as many as 12,000 of the 200,000 U.S. Marines with semi-automatic, tan-colored M45 Close Quarter Battle Pistols, and they will include spare parts and logistical support. The gun has long been the weapon of choice for special operations agents, thanks to its reliability and the stopping power of its massive bullets.

"I'm really glad that they're keeping it in the American economy," Lewis, who used the gun while he was in the armed forces, said. "I was quite upset when they went to the Beretta," Lewis said.

Some reports suggest Marines are not happy with their main Beretta M9s for their lack of accuracy and stopping power. With M1911's now supplying Special Ops, growing interest may lead to a better solution.

"To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911," Dinkel said. "This is truly a gratifying contract award."

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/07/28/ma ... z21wjc9ayw

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:37 pm

Well, it's about TIME...!!!!!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 2:59 pm

(Flame Suit On) They would have been better off with HiCap Glock 45acp.....Easier and faster to break down, WAY fewer moving parts, lighter, more rugged.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:22 pm

BlaineG wrote:(Flame Suit On) They would have been better off with HiCap Glock 45acp.....Easier and faster to break down, WAY fewer moving parts, lighter, more rugged.

Or Springfield Armory XD-45, as much as i like the 1911 i think the caliber was the biggest reason for the 1911 being the choice at the time.

Post by **Chuck 100 yd** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 4:53 pm

Good on you MARINE !!!

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:10 pm

Knocking someone over the head with a Plastic Pistol is't nearly as effective as with a 1911.

These are MARINES we are talking about. Every weapons system must have at least 2 ways of killing an enemy...

gundownunder · Post by **gundownunder** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:28 pm

Every weapons system must have at least 2 ways of killing an enemy..

Any pistol can do that.
(1) Shove it down his throat and pull the trigger, or (2)shove it up his ..... Never mind

I often wondered why the US military went to the Beretta, usually you get the answer that they wanted to share a common ammo with the rest of NATO, but they could have used a 1911 9mm for that

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:28 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Knocking someone over the head with a Plastic Pistol is't nearly as effective as with a 1911.

These are MARINES we are talking about. Every weapons system must have at least 2 ways of killing an enemy...

If a Marine cannot find at least 7 deadly insertion points for a Glock, they be gettin' soft....

Set, and Match

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:40 pm

Outstanding. I wish they'd just called it the M1911-A2 or somesuch, but in any case it's a 1911! GREAT choice by the U.S. Marines.

Oly

Chas. · Post by **Chas.** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 5:54 pm

Something to think about. Where is Glock made and who makes the money off sales.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 6:29 pm

Chas. wrote:Something to think about. Where is Glock made and who makes the money off sales.

On Glock Talk, they mention some Glocks and Glock parts being made in Smyrna, GA now....

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 7:19 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Knocking someone over the head with a Plastic Pistol is't nearly as effective as with a 1911.

These are MARINES we are talking about. Every weapons system must have at least 2 ways of killing an enemy...

That`s why i picked the XD, stands for Xtra dangerous.

rodeo kid · Post by **rodeo kid** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 9:14 pm

Glocks, Blocks ,Smocks, Don't own one never will.

And yipee for the Marines for ordering an American firearm!

Yes, the other day I posted I was thinking of getting a Springfield XDs and I probably will, and if I do so it will be my first plastic pistol. But that is just one, our military should not be buying firearms made in Austria(Glock) or Croatia(XD'S). Just for the heck of it I checked my record book and out of 40+ firearms, only 7 were made outside the US. So I guess I'm doing pretty good at buying American. God Bless.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:32 pm

rodeo kid wrote:Glocks, Blocks ,Smocks, Don't own one never will. And yipee for the Marines for ordering an American firearm! Yes, the other day I posted I was thinking of getting a Springfield XDs and I probably will, and if I do so it will be my first plastic pistol. But that is just one, our military should not be buying firearms made in Austria(Glock) or Croatia(XD'S). Just for the heck of it I checked my record book and out of 40+ firearms, only 7 were made outside the US. So I guess I'm doing pretty good at buying American. God Bless.

Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on?

(Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 10:58 pm

BlaineG wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Knocking someone over the head with a Plastic Pistol is't nearly as effective as with a 1911.

These are MARINES we are talking about. Every weapons system must have at least 2 ways of killing an enemy...
If a Marine cannot find at least 7 deadly insertion points for a Glock, they be gettin' soft....

Set, and Match

Foot Fault.

I think the new 1911's are spec'ed with rails anyway, so they could take the same toy...

But I'm talking about the basic gun.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:01 pm

BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)

yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:13 pm

It's not 'back' in the military.....it never left.

Certain units still had it as an option, Marine special operations being one of them. Their 1911s are WW2 pieces upgraded with modern bits. You can only do that so long.

Quite a few guys in the unit actually did not want a 1911, but the Marines got what someone in the Marines wanted.

The Colt's a nice piece, but it's maintenance intensive for the amount of shooting those guys do with them, and put it this way, for the unit involved, they'd shoot anything well (they have enough practice). A Glock armorer's course is 1 day, and 1 tool is involved. You know how much fun 1911-smithing is.

I love the 1911, own one, but the HK45 (designed by Larry Vickers, who has not only shot a 1911 more than all of us put together including at live targets while in Delta Force, but is an excellent 1911 smith) would be better as a unit issued piece, and just as accurate. Parts replacement would actually be drop-in.

Both Kyle Lamb and Larry Vickers (who, while both being ex-Delta, don't agree on a lot of things) both choose not to carry 1911s anymore. Considering both of them shot hundreds of rounds per day free from the USG in 1911s, every single day, for years, and carried them around the world....... might want to think about that.

The M9 was my issued piece. Wasn't my favorite, but it got the job done. I wouldn't turn down a M9 or a 1911, but neither would be my first pick for that role or as a mass issued gun.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:49 pm

claybob86 wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)
yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.

The Men on the line don't get a choice

You ever break down a 1911 and need it back together again 30 seconds ago?

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sat Jul 28, 2012 11:54 pm

BlaineG wrote:
claybob86 wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)
yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.
The Men on the line don't get a choice You ever break down a 1911 and need it back together again 30 seconds ago?

I'm sure you're right, but it was the the "American made" thing I was commenting on. In any case, I hope the men out there in the line of fire get what they need!

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:41 am

BlaineG wrote:
claybob86 wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)
yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.
The Men on the line don't get a choice You ever break down a 1911 and need it back together again 30 seconds ago?

No, they don't get a choice and that was his point - the people who HAVE the choice should choose U.S. made firearms for our troops when they bloody well can. Even if they wanted a plastic pistol there are good American alternatives to Austrian, Croation, German, Belgian and Swiss guns - especially given that the poor buggers from those lands likely can't even buy and own the dang things. It's offensive on multiple levels.

And despite being issued a 1911 and carrying it into harms way I can't recall ever busting it down for giggles when attack was imminent. Talk about

- excuse me while I search for my hip waders...

Oly

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 12:59 am

BlaineG wrote:
claybob86 wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)
yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.
The Men on the line don't get a choice You ever break down a 1911 and need it back together again 30 seconds ago?

Ever disassembled a Beretta in CQB drill when someone was pointing it at you?

I have.

Can't be done wit a 1911...

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:12 am

You are right the 1911 has been issued all along they took our 1911s and replaced them with M-9s but when we deployed we had a choice. I took both in case I could not find .45 ammo if I need it.

claybob86 · Post by **claybob86** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:15 am

What's a CQB drill? I was a jet mechanic in the Navy, so a lot of the terminology used by actual combat type guys is very unfamiliar to me.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 8:05 am

CQB: Close Quarters Battle

Any US issued gun is actually made in the US. Thus why Beretta has it's Beretta USA branch. It's the law. They should get the best gun, not just an american one.

The NIH syndrome got us the M14 and M60, when the FAL and MAG were superior. Forty years later, we finally replaced the M60, which while when it ran, worked well, had serious issues.... and we replaced it with the MAG (M240), designed in 1958.... the same time as the M60. 80 other armies already used it including Britain for 40 years.

Considering about 90% of what Fabrique Nationale builds is either directly from John Browning, or designed by his protege Dieudonne Saive (who finished the High Power when Browning died, developed the FN49, FAL and MAG)..... it might be Belgian, but there's a whole lot of American in there. The MAG is basically a BAR action flipped upside down with belt feed added from the MG42. And they're all built in the US too....... FN-USA.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:12 am

olyinaz wrote:
BlaineG wrote:
claybob86 wrote:
BlaineG wrote: Want a medal, or a chest to pin it on? (Where's your computer, TV, and every other electrical toy made....and all the parts to your car?)
yourself.

Firearms are one of the few products left where we still have a choice.
The Men on the line don't get a choice You ever break down a 1911 and need it back together again 30 seconds ago?
No, they don't get a choice and that was his point - the people who HAVE the choice should choose U.S. made firearms for our troops when they bloody well can. Even if they wanted a plastic pistol there are good American alternatives to Austrian, Croation, German, Belgian and Swiss guns - especially given that the poor buggers from those lands likely can't even buy and own the dang things. It's offensive on multiple levels.

And despite being issued a 1911 and carrying it into harms way I can't recall ever busting it down for giggles when attack was imminent. Talk about - excuse me while I search for my hip waders...

Oly

I have both and prefer the Glock (if I can ever get it back from a pinhead, ex-SIL). I guess I don't have all the experience and knowledge you have.

oneyeopn · Post by **oneyeopn** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:46 am

Yep all you guys can say what you want about the 1911, I carried one in the Corps and it was not Maintenance intensive, if anything it was indestructible. And your comments about the high cap mags. You dont need a hi-cap mag if the first shot takes care of the problem. You hit someone with a 45 and they arent getting back up, you hit them with a 9mm and they just keep shooting at you. Plus Colt needed the business after they lost the contract for M4's to Remington Arms. Good For the Corps....Semper Fi!!!

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:18 am

Interestingly, the Delta Force 3 unit at White Sands Missle Base just signed a contract for the Beretta PX4 Storm SD in 45 ACP for their newly issued handgun. You'd think the gov't and military would have a similar acquisition processes among branches, so what was the criteria from one unit to another that caused them to complete their purchase requisition for totally different handguns?

Mike Rintoul · Post by **Mike Rintoul** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 10:24 am

I have several "piggyback" or "ancillary" contracts to supply military ammo. Basically the main vendor cannot meet the quantity of their contract so they sub-contract for quantity under their specs. Joe 86er is correct about the WSMB unit chosing the Beretta PX4SSD. I have the main contract to supply that group with ammo. They are even going to test the "Extreme" ammo. I much prefer a 45 over a 9mm personally and for the fighting forces it seems to make sense. However, does anyone know how NATO influences what ammo is deployed to certain countries? Could it be that 45ACP's will not be deployed where NATO is operating?

JB · Post by JB » Sun Jul 29, 2012 1:51 pm

oneyeopn wrote:You hit someone with a 45 and they arent getting back up, you hit them with a 9mm and they just keep shooting at you.

Maybe in the movies, but in the real world a .452 sized hole versus a .355 really isn't a big difference.

Ray Newman · Post by **Ray Newman** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:45 pm

From what Military.com says, it is for Special Ops only:

"The Marine Corps has tapped Colt Defense LLC to make more than 10,000 new Close Quarter Battle Pistols for the service's elite special operations troops.

"The July 19 contract, which has a total value of $22.5 million, brings an end to the Corps' exhaustive search for the top .45 caliber, 1911-style pistol to replace the fleet of worn-out Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command, or MARSOC, M45 pistols."

Read all 'bout it:
http://www.military.com/daily-news/2012 ... ESRC=eb.nl

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 2:54 pm

While I prefer the 1911 style of handgun, I'll concede that if it takes a Glock to get a .45 acp pistol back into the holsters of our combat troops, then so be it. The important thing is to give them a cartridge that works.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 5:01 pm

That's a pretty good looking 1911, and looks like it would hold up well. I see they put a short trigger on it which was a smart choice, but should have also stayed with the arched mainspring housing.

I hope Colt also markets this model for civilians, as I would like to get my hands on one and examine it. I figure the Marines being more or less traditionals IMHO, went with the Colt partly because of tradition, and a grand tradition it is. Is it a better choice then a Glock 21? Hard to say without some trials.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 7:03 pm

And just like other SpecWar units, the individual will choose what weapon he wants. He may have an "issued" piece, but depending on the mission, he may choose from other pieces. Well... any he can qualify with.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Jul 29, 2012 9:43 pm

A 1911 isn't maintenance intensive when you shoot it twice or three times a year and it sits in a holster most of the time.

These type units shoot more in a month than the entire USMC does per year in pistol ammo.

To give you an idea, when Delta Force was founded, with around 60 or so shooters, on 'non shooting' days they were shooting around 100-200 .45 per man and 200-400 5.56mm or something pretty close to that.

On actual 'shoot' days where they were training, they could easily shoot 2-3 times that in each.

Which means PER MAN, per gun, they were going through a couple thousand rounds per month minimum.

Any IPSC or IDPA shooter can tell you, under those kind of round counts, 1911s do become maintenance intensive. That's why the Delta guys were issued a pair of 1911s, it was necessary to keep at least one pistol functional at all times.

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:27 pm

MrMurphy wrote:CQB: Close Quarters Battle

Any US issued gun is actually made in the US. Thus why Beretta has it's Beretta USA branch. It's the law. They should get the best gun, not just an american one.

The NIH syndrome got us the M14 and M60, when the FAL and MAG were superior. Forty years later, we finally replaced the M60, which while when it ran, worked well, had serious issues.... and we replaced it with the MAG (M240), designed in 1958.... the same time as the M60. 80 other armies already used it including Britain for 40 years.

Considering about 90% of what Fabrique Nationale builds is either directly from John Browning, or designed by his protege Dieudonne Saive (who finished the High Power when Browning died, developed the FN49, FAL and MAG)..... it might be Belgian, but there's a whole lot of American in there. The MAG is basically a BAR action flipped upside down with belt feed added from the MG42. And they're all built in the US too....... FN-USA.

Those are very good points and it's impossible to disagree with giving the troops the best (although I'm not sure I agree that the FAL is superior to the M14 in any way), but it's the intellectual property and end-profits thing that bothers me with doing business with non-U.S. companys. At the bottom of it all, we build up foreign entities over generations instead of our own concerns. FN has become a bit murky since they are so heavily into the U.S. one can make the claim that almost everything gets done here, but still there are jobs being supported over there at their base in Belgium instead of over here where we are in the midst of a recession. I'd just like to see all of my tax dollars all stay as close to home and benifit as many U.S. citizens as possible - that's pretty much what I'm saying. Things are rarely black vs. white (too much gray in the world...) but you know what I mean without nit picking.

From the FN web site: "Since 1997, Herstal Group has been 100% owned by the Walloon Region of Belgium. With manufacturing locations in Belgium, US, Portugal and Japan, the global Herstal Group provides employment to a workforce of about 2,400 people." I'm sure many of those are American jobs but not ALL of them, which is what I'd prefer (I suspect our British friends have the same conversations). And the Walloons are the Frenchies in Belgium. Not that I'd ever fan flames....

Now excuse me while I go ride my Suzuki to Wally World to buy some Chinese stuff.

Oly

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:34 pm

86er wrote:Interestingly, the Delta Force 3 unit at White Sands Missle Base just signed a contract for the Beretta PX4 Storm SD in 45 ACP for their newly issued handgun. You'd think the gov't and military would have a similar acquisition processes among branches, so what was the criteria from one unit to another that caused them to complete their purchase requisition for totally different handguns?

Marine Corps vs. Army - if one buys something it almost seems to hurt its chances with the other. It's silly but it's a very oooooold rivalry.

Also, the mission is likely significantly different between the two units so the pistols likely had to meet different use and longevity standards.

Oly

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 12:46 pm

Col. Jeff Cooper's favorite hand gun was, of course, a highly worked over 1911. He didn't quibble much: He was heard to say that the launching machine was a personal choice as long at it was a .45acp going downrange....Smart Man....

olyinaz · Post by **olyinaz** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 1:40 pm

BlaineG wrote:Col. Jeff Cooper's favorite hand gun was, of course, a highly worked over 1911. He didn't quibble much: He was heard to say that the launching machine was a personal choice as long at it was a .45acp going downrange....Smart Man....

Absolutely!

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Glercks and I'm not trying to sway you away from them because let's face it - they're GOOD. But give the M&P a gander at your local pusher when you get a chance. I sold my Glock and my XD is for sale because I've decided I like the Smith better in every respect (and as you say - holes and elbows - we all got 'em):

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 7781_image

Cheers,
Oly

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:48 pm

olyinaz wrote:
BlaineG wrote:Col. Jeff Cooper's favorite hand gun was, of course, a highly worked over 1911. He didn't quibble much: He was heard to say that the launching machine was a personal choice as long at it was a .45acp going downrange....Smart Man....
Absolutely!

Hey, there's nothing wrong with Glercks and I'm not trying to sway you away from them because let's face it - they're GOOD. But give the M&P a gander at your local pusher when you get a chance. I sold my Glock and my XD is for sale because I've decided I like the Smith better in every respect (and as you say - holes and elbows - we all got 'em):

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/ ... 7781_image

Cheers,
Oly

Go figger, my only .45acp is a really nice Para Stainless.....I'd like another Glock, though, and a BlackHawk with the acp cyl.

tman · Post by **tman** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:52 pm

.40 caliber glocks made in Georgia. Give our fighting men the best. Save the taxpayer some also.

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 5:40 pm

One thing I've always loved about the 1911 is it has a very comfortable grip, it even fits smaller hands, alot of those high cap plastic guns have grips like 2X4's. The only way a military weapon can be truly effective it must fit everyone. Besides people who don't like the old 1911 just haven't carried one enough. OR THERE JUST PLAIN WRONG. in my opinion.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 6:19 pm

Mike Rintoul wrote:I have several "piggyback" or "ancillary" contracts to supply military ammo. Basically the main vendor cannot meet the quantity of their contract so they sub-contract for quantity under their specs. Joe 86er is correct about the WSMB unit chosing the Beretta PX4SSD. I have the main contract to supply that group with ammo. They are even going to test the "Extreme" ammo. I much prefer a 45 over a 9mm personally and for the fighting forces it seems to make sense. However, does anyone know how NATO influences what ammo is deployed to certain countries? Could it be that 45ACP's will not be deployed where NATO is operating?

There are no restrictions from NATO that I know of the ISAF (International Security Assistance Forces “NATO”) forces in Afghanistan I worked with had no restrictions on US or others. We had 45s in Africa, Iraq, and Afghanistan when I was there. Our FBI agents even carried Gold Dot HPs in their 9mm weapons and their standard issue .223 ammo on the teams.

hfcable · Post by **hfcable** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:03 pm

walks with gun wrote:One thing I've always loved about the 1911 is it has a very comfortable grip, it even fits smaller hands, alot of those high cap plastic guns have grips like 2X4's. The only way a military weapon can be truly effective it must fit everyone. Besides people who don't like the old 1911 just haven't carried one enough. OR THERE JUST PLAIN WRONG. in my opinion.

i think the difference in hands is part of it. i have owned and used many 1911s....NONE of them felt good in my hand, all literally had that 2x4 feel to me. the CZ autos, the glocks, the HK p7 series, and the Sig 220 all felt much better, and are much, much easier for me to hit with [ not to mention that also every one of those has been vastly better in the reliability measure as well. ]
i do have to say, as well, that revolvers, like the security six, dan wesson, ruger single actions and colts [ single and double] are much better for me grip wise and for real accuracy, than any auto of any type.

it really is funny the differences on these things. my hands are small but thick, and revolvers just 'snug' right in and point well for me.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:34 pm

MrMurphy wrote:A 1911 isn't maintenance intensive when you shoot it twice or three times a year and it sits in a holster most of the time.

These type units shoot more in a month than the entire USMC does per year in pistol ammo.

To give you an idea, when Delta Force was founded, with around 60 or so shooters, on 'non shooting' days they were shooting around 100-200 .45 per man and 200-400 5.56mm or something pretty close to that.

On actual 'shoot' days where they were training, they could easily shoot 2-3 times that in each.

Which means PER MAN, per gun, they were going through a couple thousand rounds per month minimum.

Any IPSC or IDPA shooter can tell you, under those kind of round counts, 1911s do become maintenance intensive. That's why the Delta guys were issued a pair of 1911s, it was necessary to keep at least one pistol functional at all times.

I though GI's were supposed to clean their guns everyday anyway. I have a friend, Army Tank Commander who saw action in the Desert Storm, who told me that he had to clean his personal weapon every day, and made his men do the same.

As far as maintenance goes on the 1911, on my Wilson 1911, I could shoot it and often did 500 rounds between cleanings, and Bill Wilson even wrote years ago that it was harder on a well made 1911 to clean it excesively, and his round count was the 500 rounds, unless it was maybe match day comming up. However, throw some sand in the mix and it might be a lot less.

On a gun with looser tolerances, you would be surprised how long you can go. My first match gun for IPSC back in the 1980's was a worn custom parts gun, but well made using an old Essex Frame and an old Colt pre-70 series slide. The gun had been shot many thousands of rounds before I got it, but it was still a good accurate weapon. If the gun was clean it would rattle like a bucket of bolts when you shot it, but was dead reliable and actually shot better dirty. I kid you not, that gun could be shot, more or less indefinately between cleanings, as long as it had some oil on it, however I never threw it in a sandbox either.

We shot a lot back then, 2 to 3 thousand rounds a month, and I guarentee you I could do it, without a cleaning on that old parts gun, just keep some oil on it, and wipe it down occasionally. I couldn't do that with my Wilson, and wouldn't want to, but 500 rounds between cleanings was not unreasonalble for me.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 7:40 pm

Not talking about cleaning (my unit cleaned every third day)... talking about parts breakage.

If all you ever do is wipe it down and shoot a few times a year, of course nothing needs replacement.

When you're shooting anywhere from 2-5,000 rounds PER MONTH.....every month....for years...... the 1911 becomes an armorer's full time job. Multiply that by 40-80 guys in a unit... all of whom shoot just as much.... yeah.

Lastmohecken · Post by **Lastmohecken** » Mon Jul 30, 2012 9:47 pm

Yes, you will have some parts breakage with that amount of shooting, especially if the gun has some MIN parts in it, but even the forged ones can break. The main things that I have had break are firing pins, firing pin stop plates, extractors, slide stops, but really not very often on well made guns, however I have had more problems with the Kimbers then anything, and that's because of the MIN parts. And of course recoil springs need to be replaced.

But I have not had any more parts breakages on 1911's then I have had on many other guns. I have seen parts breakages on all kinds of guns, and frankly they were breaking on guns that seen far less rounds go down the barrel then the 1911's.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 7:42 am

walks with gun wrote:One thing I've always loved about the 1911 is it has a very comfortable grip, it even fits smaller hands, alot of those high cap plastic guns have grips like 2X4's. The only way a military weapon can be truly effective it must fit everyone. Besides people who don't like the old 1911 just haven't carried one enough. OR THERE JUST PLAIN WRONG. in my opinion.

You must be having a bad day bro, the fact is the grip on my XD is the same size if not smaller than a 1911.

Took measurements of the two grips front to back, thickness and length and the XD grip is smaller.
IMO the XD is a fine gun that i would stake my life on, not as pretty as a 1911 but for a defence gun that will take a beating hard to beat.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:02 am

IMO there is still nothing quite like the skull-crushing capabilities of the 1911 steel lower... (it's also why I don't like some of the "custom" rounded-butt guns...)

walks with gun · Post by **walks with gun** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:00 am

A lot of those plastic guns have very large grips, I didn't say all. I think part of the switch might be tradition, but they still wouldn't pick something that didn't keep them alive. The 1911's still rule,I have spoken.

Pitchy · Post by **Pitchy** » Tue Jul 31, 2012 9:17 am

walks with gun wrote:A lot of those plastic guns have very large grips, I didn't say all. I think part of the switch might be tradition, but they still wouldn't pick something that didn't keep them alive. The 1911's still rule,I have spoken.

plastics better save the earth , i have spoken

WWG and i are neighbors and are just poking fun so nobody thinks there`s a argument going on.