454 Vs. 45/70?

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:47 am

In a rifle how does the 454 compare to the 45/70? Is 454 in a lever action a good choice for a bear stopper if need be? I just trying to get some opinions of you guys that might be more familiar with these calibers since I have none with either caliber.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:10 am

I don't think it compares. Start loading heavy bullets and I think the 45-70 walks away from the .454. Plus 45-70 doesn't beat the stuff out of rifles unless you start loading Ruger #1 levels.

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:16 am

I started with the 45/70. Then went to a 45colt. Wished I had got 454 instead. But the 45 with a 255RNFP at 1600fps it thumps pretty good on both ends. I shoot the 45/70 with 305, 350 and 405 gr bullets at 1600fps. I would hate to have choose one over the other. So buy both. Start with the one you find 1st. 3leg

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:31 am

Either can kill a bear readily, but as the bears get meaner, bigger, or in poor circumstances the 45-70 offers more reliable options to stop them cold. The 45-70 for bears will start with a stout 350 grain and can offer up to a 550 grain bullet. The lighter of these can easily fly over 2150 fps and the heaviest of them can still get 1450 fps. My opinion is that the 45-70 gives you a decisive advantage over the 454 if you need to shoot a bear and stop it right now.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:52 am

A .454 in a 1886 is a bit overdone... you don't need that big an action. But for recoil, I prefer the 1886 in the 26" octagon version. 400-500grain bullets are not available in a .454 and generally won't feed thru the 1892-sized action. A good alternative to both is the .500S&W in a Big Horn Armory mdl 89 Carbine. (I don't know if they are still making them, tho').

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:58 am

I have a guide Gun, and it is easy to load everything from 300 grain loads that are easy on the shoulder and fun to shoot to heavy loads that let you know when they go off. I used the Guide Gun on a Wildebeest and it performed perfectly. If I were going to go after bear, I would use the .45-70 just because it is what I have. Grizzly Cartridge makes a +P load with a 405 grain Hawk bullet that will hit about 1800 fps in my Guide Gun's short barrel and it is very very accurate. I would not be afraid to carry that load anywhere in North America. 86er taught me to keep the rifle to my shoulder while working the lever, and I can put 5 rounds, 4 in the magazine and 1 in the chamber to start, on target at 100 yards in the kill zone of a bear within 30 seconds from starting with the rifle at half cock and pointing at the sky. This sounds slow until you try it with someone else having you walk around, then they yell go and you have to get on target and fire aimed shots. I don't have any experience with the .454 Casull.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:13 am

My bear country round is a 560gr doing 1450fps from a Guide Gun. I'm pretty sure you won't touch that in a .454. My elk round is a 350gr Hornady doing well over 2000. Pretty sure you won't touch that either. I can load it down to .454 level if needed.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:24 am

This is one of those leftover gunwriter pulling the wool over the uninformed eyes situations.
It's never ever ceased to amaze me at how a 454 handgun with its 300 gr bullet doing 1600 ( on a lucky day) is adequate for anything that walks (lets keep in mind the extreme pressures generated everytime the firing pin spanks the primer out of its deep sleep), but yet the lowly old 45-70 with its 300 gr load that's been around since the 1870's is barely adequate for field mice at close range... (1600 fps at something around 14k cup).

There is nothing on this continent nor most any other that a 45-70 loaded with the ancient old 405 gr bullet trotting along at 1300 fps has not penetrated from side to side or end to end in many examples. Let alone the affectiveness of the 500 gr Sharps or government nosed bullets at a leisurely 1200 fps that has really got to be experienced to be believed.
My advice go with the 45-70 keep the loads to what the cartridge was born with, and not only will your shoulder thank you, your rifle will thank you, and the probability of making that first shot count goes up probably double, especially in a panicked stopping situation.(in which case your heirs may not thank you, but that's their problem)

pshort · Post by **pshort** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:39 am

Very well put, Don.. Thanks for your input....
I'm thinking the .30-30 has been dismissed in the same manner..

Paul

3leggedturtle · Post by **3leggedturtle** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:48 am

pshort wrote:Very well put, Don.. Thanks for your input....
I'm thinking the .30-30 has been dismissed in the same manner..

Paul

Yep been hearing that dribble about the 30/30 since '72. Of course I wonder how many traded in their 45/70's and other similar calibers in for the hi-velocity 30WCF when it first came out!

piller · Post by **piller** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:50 am

Don, I have loaded a few hundred rounds with 405 grain JSP bullets for my Guide Gun and used IMR 3031 for the powder. I loaded them in the range that my Speer manual lists (45.5 grains of IMR 3031). I haven't chronographed them, but the book says they are running out of the barrel at around 1400 fps. I have shot them at targets mostly, and have no reason to change anything. I have used that load on one large wild pig and the bullet was recovered, but it was quite nicely mushroomed and was shot from the Texas Heart Shot angle. It penetrated about 2 1/2 feet of pig. The pig skidded a little bit forward as it was running full speed and the round on target knocked it flat. There was no further movement. I can't see the need for more. I would love to try that load on elk. I wonder if a hard cast lead bullet would have completely penetrated the pig? the 405 JSP seems to be sort of soft to me, but that mushroom size leaves an impressive wound channel.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:12 pm

Pshort and turtle it's an easy thing to figure out. The 30-30 lived thru the depression, most of the bigbore cartridges weren't being chambered much after world war 1 and only managed a resurrection in some part due to the "bicentennial celebration".

Piller if you went from the jacketed bullet to a cast bullet like the lyman 457193 (the direct decendant of the original levergun 45-70 bullet) cast no harder than 20-1 I doubt you'll recover as many bullets from those hogs.

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:56 pm

If a bear's going to be stopped, a .454 or a .45-70 will do it. Of course, even if you are wielding a .50 BMG, and you miss your shot -- too bad!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 1:59 pm

Either one will do (in most cases)------If you have a choice-------------45-70
Why has that gun been around so long and so popular? it works very well.
Nice low pressure and throws a BIG bullet when one is needed.

All that extra case length gives the shooter so much more options(other than cartridge capacity)
Chances are if a full loaded 45-70 levergun doesn't stop (Mr. Bad)---you are probably got!

Besides when you got that Galco leather buttstock shellholder on your gun with those 6 big 45-70 rds showing,ya just feel like a bad a## and it tends to up your game!

44-40 Willy · Post by **44-40 Willy** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:31 pm

As much as I like pistol caliber leverguns, I'd go with a 45-70 over a 454. In a lightweight Rossi 92, the recoil of a 454 is impressive to say the least.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 3:37 pm

Good stuff here guys.

I can echo what Frank said in regard to 30-30.

I know it's a big favorite, I have a couple of them, but don't use them.

I can load my 45/70 DOWN to 30-30 like levels, or 44 mag levels,
or 35 Rem levels, but I cannot load my 30-30s UP to 45/70 levels.

The 44 mag with the right bullet actually overlaps the lower range of
the 45/70, but that's a different color of horse. A 454 will also get close
to the lower margins. But like Frank says, (I'm paraphrasing), when
you need throw weight, 45/70 is the way to go.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:48 pm

Grizz wrote:I can load my 45/70 DOWN to 30-30 like levels, or 44 mag levels,
or 35 Rem levels, but I cannot load my 30-30s UP to 45/70 levels.
.

Ok that one needs some further expounding on

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:30 pm

Don McDowell wrote:
Grizz wrote:I can load my 45/70 DOWN to 30-30 like levels, or 44 mag levels,
or 35 Rem levels, but I cannot load my 30-30s UP to 45/70 levels.
.
Ok that one needs some further expounding on

My 44 mag shoots 405gr cast bullets. The 45/70 shoots 405 gr cast bullets. The 45/70 can deliver them at a higher velocity than the 44 revolvers and lever guns. Thus there is a performance overlap at the lower margin of the envelope.

My 45/70 will deliver a 425gr cast bullet at 1963 fps, or more. In terms of momentum or kinetic energy that's far beyond the wildest 30-30 load that I'm aware of. OTOH I think I can load a 300gr or lighter bullet in my 45/70 and slow it down enough to get the forensics to overlap the 30-30 envelope.

I conclude I can do anything I might need to use a 30-30 for with a 45/70. And I can use a 30-30 to do some of the things I might want a 45/70 to do. But I cannot make a 30-30 have the top end performance of the 45/70.

I have an old airhead motorcycle. Blaine has a new crotch rocket. He can slow down and match the airhead, probably in second gear, but the airhead cannot match the top end of Blaine's rocket. Same same with 30-30 and 45/70 in my mind.

know what I mean?

Grizz

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 5:37 pm

What twist does that 44 have that it'll stabilize 405 gr bullets?

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:04 pm

Griff wrote:A good alternative to both is the .500S&W in a Big Horn Armory mdl 89 Carbine. (I don't know if they are still making them, tho').

I'd pick that option if I could!

Contrary Opinion: Between the 454 Casull and the 45-70, the latter has the 'track record', and a larger case that gives more bullet options, and perhaps significantly more power in some loads, HOWEVER, the Rossi 92 action is smoother and has a shorter lever-throw than my Marlin Guide Gun, plus holds several more rounds. I think it is lighter weight, but haven't noticed the recoil to be that bad with full-power factory 454 Casull loads, and for a true "bear country" gun, I'd think I'd want the lighter, handier, shorter-lever-throw, especially if it held more rounds, and was at least on the same page power-wise. I'd be more concerned with tolerable recoil and truly maximal power in a moose-gun or something I might shoot lots of rounds from or shoot off the bench.

Disclaimer: I don't live in bear country, and haven't shot other than normal 'factory' loads from my 45-70 very often, and am not particularly recoil-shy. I also admit that I'm skittish of the Marlin 45-70's because it seems like a new KaBoom with one appears every few months (but they are so popular that would affect the numbers). Never seen a Rossi 92 Casull blown up, even though I've heard some of the earlier ones stretched when repeatedly fired with hundreds or thousands of very maximal loads - something I'd not do with a 'bear gun'. (Now pretty soon someone will post a picture of a blown Rossi Casull, and I'll be skeert of BOTH of 'em...

)

Guess I'll have to stick with my 375 Ruger bolt-gun, and wear a flame-thrower back-pack in case I can't work the bolt fast enough. Kevlar suit (hard to chew for the bear, so when it chews through the flame-thrower hoses instead, it gets its hair singed off and runs away in embarrassment).

Glad I only live in coyote territory, where a 22 LR pistol is 'good enough'.

BigSky56 · Post by **BigSky56** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:05 pm

Jmay the question you asked is a common one, people have those type of thoughts if they are out and about hunting or exploring and have a encounter with a animal that can stomp you, gore you or scratch and bite you. You dont need some magical whizbang mag to do this. Whats more important is that the firearm is 100% dependable, loads feeds fires and ejects 100% of the time and you are 100% with the operation of hitting your target with a CNS shot. Get a a useful firearm not a specialty firearm and hunt and shoot it, its the shooter not the caliber. I live, fish, hunt and recreate among the apex predators and moose, Iam confident in my ability and my firearms to keep me and mine safe thats all you can do. danny

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:15 pm

Grizz wrote:Blaine has a new crotch rocket.

. . .

. . . Boy, I'm sure glad that even though I'm not a 'motorcycle guy', I happen to have heard that term before and know what it means. . .

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:33 pm

Don McDowell wrote:What twist does that 44 have that it'll stabilize 405 gr bullets?

ruger redhawk 5-1/2" barrel. I think it's 16 but I am not certain.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:33 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Grizz wrote:Blaine has a new crotch rocket.
. . .

. . . Boy, I'm sure glad that even though I'm not a 'motorcycle guy', I happen to have heard that term before and know what it means. . .

I KNOW, right ?

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 6:46 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
Griff wrote:A good alternative to both is the .500S&W in a Big Horn Armory mdl 89 Carbine. (I don't know if they are still making them, tho').
I'd pick that option if I could!

Contrary Opinion: Between the 454 Casull and the 45-70, the latter has the 'track record', and a larger case that gives more bullet options, and perhaps significantly more power in some loads, HOWEVER, the Rossi 92 action is smoother and has a shorter lever-throw than my Marlin Guide Gun, plus holds several more rounds. I think it is lighter weight, but haven't noticed the recoil to be that bad with full-power factory 454 Casull loads, and for a true "bear country" gun, I'd think I'd want the lighter, handier, shorter-lever-throw, especially if it held more rounds, and was at least on the same page power-wise. I'd be more concerned with tolerable recoil and truly maximal power in a moose-gun or something I might shoot lots of rounds from or shoot off the bench.

Disclaimer: I don't live in bear country, and haven't shot other than normal 'factory' loads from my 45-70 very often, and am not particularly recoil-shy. I also admit that I'm skittish of the Marlin 45-70's because it seems like a new KaBoom with one appears every few months (but they are so popular that would affect the numbers). Never seen a Rossi 92 Casull blown up, even though I've heard some of the earlier ones stretched when repeatedly fired with hundreds or thousands of very maximal loads - something I'd not do with a 'bear gun'. (Now pretty soon someone will post a picture of a blown Rossi Casull, and I'll be skeert of BOTH of 'em... )

Guess I'll have to stick with my 375 Ruger bolt-gun, and wear a flame-thrower back-pack in case I can't work the bolt fast enough. Kevlar suit (hard to chew for the bear, so when it chews through the flame-thrower hoses instead, it gets its hair singed off and runs away in embarrassment).

Glad I only live in coyote territory, where a 22 LR pistol is 'good enough'.

Some good points Doc and you other guys.
I got thinking more about his question ????

The key wording(bear stopper)????
Here is what I can first hand tell you-----we have big bears up here(up to around 700lbs and more, the ones just not shot yet etc.)
You have three scenerios(hunting or out and about and there is a bear that just wants to stay away from you)(stopping a bear you just hit to put it down to prevent going after it or it turning and it charges you)-----again from most everyone I know that has taken bear and big bear (when hit they almost always try to get away from you)notice I said "almost always"but even with that you are (aware)
Then the last(worst case for you)and I think probably what you are generally referring to.You are out in the woods hunting/hiking/birdwatching/whatever----and in a blink of an eye(in the thick woods)wham---a pi##ed off bear wanting you attacks you(as rare as that might be) you want which of those you mentioned to hopefully (stop that bear from spitting distance)now(as best as now can be)
No way in heck can that .454Casull compare to a 405gr @2000fps or a 420gr @ 1850fps(I really ike the 420gr Garrett Hammerheads) Chances are you propbably will get(if you are lucky)one shot-----possibly two??? na, lets stick with one!

I can tell you a 700lb bear (when it wants to)can run up the side of a mountain(like a deer)-----you would not belive how fast they can run(and their 0-30mph speed)is ===============right now! I see BIG bear just about every year do it! Every single time I think---wow!
ps---they can jump too----I mean the type from they are running up the side of a steep mountain and halfway up that steep grade jump (across/in the air)a logroad width and in "a blink"be gone up and over the top!

like a deer!
Crossing a huge field

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uzj66onSEho

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 7:26 pm

Grizz wrote:
Don McDowell wrote:What twist does that 44 have that it'll stabilize 405 gr bullets?
ruger redhawk 5-1/2" barrel. I think it's 16 but I am not certain.

What the velocity around 800? That's a terribly long bullet to try and get seated and chambered in a sixgun.

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:13 pm

Wow lots of good opinions! Ok looks like 45/70, I was leaning that way anyways since I reload I would have lots of options it seems. Now the big question is What model 45/70? Which one gives the best gun for the price?

86er · Post by **86er** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:27 pm

For a nice, quality gun made in USA look at the Henry.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:32 pm

I'm going to be a bit contrary and say the .500 isnt really a practical option. I could buy at least two Marlin 45-70's, and ammo that isn't impossible to find and stupid expensive.

And AJ, I don't know where you get this idea of a Marlin having KB problems. In 13 years on forums with mostly Marlin 45-70 owners I can only recall 2 at most that made it to the internet. Marlins are considered a modern leveraction by every reloading manual I've ever seen. I'm calling you out on this sir, I bet you can't find 5 Marlin 45-70 KB's in the last 5 years. If I'm wrong I won't question you again. If you're wrong then please stop saying Marlins have a problem with KB's.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:39 pm

Don,

On my gun I am getting 942 average, but the cylinder throats are tight and need to be reamed. No problem to connect with a 100 yard gong. A generous one. Blaine's shot it some. It has mild recoil, less than 240gr store bought and a little more than 200gr 44 spcl. It seems like it would really like a 9" barrel. Marshall drives it to 1100 from his redhawk, but I don't work on that side of the pressure curve.

A guy on another forum with a blued 5-1/2" redhawk is getting something like 1035 or close to that. He drilled 13 one gallon water jugs straight line penetration, which proves the bullet is stable. And a better BC than the 458s. And plain devastating if he ever gets attacked by water jugs.

IOW the revolver is getting pretty close to store bought 45/70/405 close-in performance. It owns absolutely everything out to 50-something yards. Probably more. It's my belly gun in Alaska.

You're right that the performance is a little surprising. It caught me completely off guard when I started drilling fire wood with it. It's my only load for that gun now.

Grizz

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:34 pm

Grizz that bullet would basically be about the same thing as a 44-77, but the muzzle velocity would need to come up to 1300s to equal that grand old round. But there are letters written to the Sharps factory telling about how the 44-77 would shoot thru and kill 2 or more bull bison with one round at 500 yds, and at that point it would be traveling about the same speed as you guys are claiming out of your sixguns. Alot to be said for long heavy bullets at "slow" velocities.

Don McDowell · Post by **Don McDowell** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:37 pm

Jmay wrote:Wow lots of good opinions! Ok looks like 45/70, I was leaning that way anyways since I reload I would have lots of options it seems. Now the big question is What model 45/70? Which one gives the best gun for the price?

I would look hard for a Marlin from the 70's and 80's something prior to the leftover telephonepole fat forearms with the grandkids squeezing to shoeing rasps in a vice to apply the "checkering"
Also there were a small handful of winchester 94 bigbores in 45-70, and there has been a recent run of 86 Winchesters in both carbine and rifle, along with the lite weight carbine versions.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:46 pm

sore shoulder wrote:And AJ, I don't know where you get this idea of a Marlin having KB problems. In 13 years on forums with mostly Marlin 45-70 owners I can only recall 2 at most that made it to the internet.

Oh I fully realize that they are considered pretty strong, and like I said, I'll bet the reason I keep seeing posts about them are:

the fact that they are such common guns (more Ford Pickups in the past few years than Ford Pintos, yet I think we'd both rather be in a Pickup).

the fact that more than the average cartridge, there ARE a huge variety of home-brew loads out there, and undoubtedly a few 'Ruger only' loads get put in Marlins.

the cartridge case is unusually large, which makes double-charging, or even double-bulleting, much more likely than average.

the fact that once I noticed a few grizzly pictures of them KaBooming, it made other ones catch my eye (perhaps re-posts of the same ones, even).

I thought I expressed my admitted 'limitations' in the post; sorry if not well enough. I fully realize that most KaBooms (regardless of the firearm) are like THIS one

> http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/0 ... boom-nsfw/

I've not shot EITHER my Guide Gun OR my Rossi 454 Casull enough to be confident of them in a 'bear' situation, because as BigSky56 said:

BigSky56 wrote:You dont need some magical whizbang mag to do this. Whats more important is that the firearm is 100% dependable, loads feeds fires and ejects 100% of the time and you are 100% with the operation of hitting your target with a CNS shot.

I do THINK that I could shoot the Rossi 92 faster than the Guide Gun, and perhaps therefore place a CNS shot more reliably with it in an emergency. Not ready for prime-time with either gun, though (and I hope I made that point in the post, as well).

If I had to go into bear country in the next half-hour, I'd probably choose my Garand 'tanker', since as far as my 'powerful' guns, I've put more rounds down-range with it than my Rossi or Marlin combined. If it just HAD to be a levergun, I'd probably take the Rossi because I think I can handle it faster, and if I were doing chores or boating, I'd take a handgun most likely, as the rifle might be leaning against a tree while I needed both hands for something, etc... (and yes, I know handguns aren't exactly 'ideal' bear-stoppers, either).

Anyway, as far as Marlin 45-70 KaBooms, I don't think I'm the only one who has reservations about that round in that gun.
We may all be overly paranoid, but this has been discussed before on the forum

> http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=28929

I have read comments from those who appear to know far more about the engineering and design of the Marlins than I do, indicating that there were re-designed threads on the 450 Marlin to better handle the pressures; if that is true, vs. just a cost-cutting or efficiency re-design, pressures at that level were perhaps concerning even to the factory. Then again, what 'pressures' of ammo are the folks using who get the KaBooms, vs. what 'pressures' is the gun actually designed to handle...?

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 10:22 pm

I like the look and feel of the Marlins 1895 but are there some design flaw, or is the Marlin week? This is the first I have heard about any KBs going on with the Marlin lever guns! Or is this a common problem and I am just not in the know?

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:07 pm

Doc posted the links, you can see for yourself.

A healthy Marlin won't break if it's fed proper loads. There is a rating in most reloading info that ranks 45/70 loads as suitable for only older guns, then another class that includes the Marlins, then another class that includes modern Winchester and Browning 1886, Ruger #1s, and H&R single shots. Guns rated black powder only are, I think, in the bottom category pressure wise. Maybe.

A Winchester or Browning 1886 seems less prone to blow up, I can't remember seeing one online, but there may be 10 Marlins for every 1886 out there.

I have a couple of Marlins and am not afraid to shoot them. I don't load them up to their pressure ratings. Others try to make 45/70+++p loads and get funny results.

Like a lot of stuff, it's the nut behind the wheel. And that's a word of caution, it'd be wise to check headspace and the bore on a well used Marlin because Bubba might have already tried to blow it up.

Best,

Grizz

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:20 pm

It is not common for Marlin 1895 to KB. There have been a couple KBs that were due to overloads, major overloads. Marlins are weak in the same vein as S&W handguns are weak. Don't use overloads and they won't blow.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Feb 28, 2013 11:55 pm

so Frank,

you're saying they're not the glock 40s of their ecosystem?

I think that's correct.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:28 am

I just think its funny considering Garrett and Buffalo Bore is considered +P, yet is still well below factory pressure rating for the 1895 and can be shot all day every day all year with no consequences other than to the shooters shoulder and wallet, and people are concerned about KB's. I've pushed the 1895 way harder than +P. There's a reason I've been nicknamed overload Frank.

(They weren't really overloads).

IOW, the .454 is just a lil kid taggin along with the big boy 45-70 when you start letting the 45-70 stretch its legs.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:40 am

I know, I think it's kinda funny too.

The ones converted to 50 cal seem to get some special treatment in the thread department. That spot is thin. It's a good idea to treat them with a little respect, just a little bit..

Maybe some smart builder from scratch type guy will come up with an after market retrofit ring around the chamber and everyone can load up to klingon levels.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:35 am

Isn't the thread deal using square cut just like the .450's?

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:26 am

sore shoulder wrote:It is not common for Marlin 1895 to KB. There have been a couple KBs that were due to overloads, major overloads. Marlins are weak in the same vein as S&W handguns are weak. Don't use overloads and they won't blow.

So, you are saying that weak is a term that may not be appropriate. If you go beyond the design limits, then something seems weak. In that case, I probably don't have any weak firearms.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:29 am

Grizz wrote:A healthy Marlin won't break if it's fed proper loads. There is a rating in most reloading info that ranks 45/70 loads as suitable for only older guns, then another class that includes the Marlins, then another class that includes modern Winchester and Browning 1886, Ruger #1s, and H&R single shots. Guns rated black powder only are, I think, in the bottom category pressure wise. Maybe.

A Winchester or Browning 1886 seems less prone to blow up, I can't remember seeing one online, but there may be 10 Marlins for every 1886 out there.

I have a couple of Marlins and am not afraid to shoot them. I don't load them up to their pressure ratings. Others try to make 45/70+++p loads and get funny results.

Like a lot of stuff, it's the nut behind the wheel. And that's a word of caution, it'd be wise to check headspace and the bore on a well used Marlin because Bubba might have already tried to blow it up.

Actually that's pretty much the way I feel about them - didn't mean to start a big deal about it. WHATEVER kind of gun I've recently seen a KaBoom picture of will give me the creeps to fire for awhile. The 'Smith & Wesson' analogy is a good one. LOTS of S&W KaBooms out there, yet they're not wimpy guns. On the other hand, if I have a S&W 29 and a Freedom Arms 44 Mag, I'm NOT going to shoot my hottest loads in the S&W.

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:28 am

Man didn't mean to get you guys stirred up just trying to get educated so I can make the right purchase

. So if I stay with recipes rated for the gun from reputable source looks like I will be ok! What about the new Remlins its all I can seem to find?

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 12:31 pm

The factory ammunition is usually in the power range that the Trapdoor type firearms can handle. Probably would work fine on most things from deer to pigs to elk.

44-40 Willy · Post by **44-40 Willy** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:34 pm

If you chase down through the link that AJMD posted and onto a link to a third forum, the guy that had that 444 blow up posted this about a month ago:

Under a microscope, all of the warpage is in the chamber. Almost definitely overpressure. I think my dad misread a recipe and loaded 50 grains of Accurate 7 for 50 grains of reloder 7. After pulling the bullets, the only powder in his inventory that resembled what was in the cartridges was Accurate 7

http://www.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/y ... day_today/

Wrong powder and it probably would have blown any rifle up.

(It was not a 45-70 as reported here)

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 4:51 pm

Jmay wrote:Man didn't mean to get you guys stirred up just trying to get educated so I can make the right purchase
. So if I stay with recipes rated for the gun from reputable source looks like I will be ok! What about the new Remlins its all I can seem to find?

This is not even close to "stirred up" for a big bore conversation.....My vote goes to 45-70. It will do it all, and with not as much drama as the .454

harry · Post by **harry** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:01 pm

If you want rifle performance use rifle cartridges.
You can't get there from here, 45/70 is just that, a rifle cartridge. 454, 500 s&w 475 all your trying to get to is 45/70 performance. Just buy the 45/70 and save yourself all that shoulder thump'n

Sigmar · Post by **Sigmar** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:20 pm

harry wrote:If you want rifle performance use rifle cartridges.
You can't get there from here, 45/70 is just that, a rifle cartridge. 454, 500 s&w 475 all your trying to get to is 45/70 performance. Just buy the 45/70 and save yourself all that shoulder thump'n

So the 45/70 has less recoil than the 454 ?

Charlie · Post by **Charlie** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:46 pm

Naww,
I not gonna get involved in this.

Don't send a boy to do a mans job.

Charlie

Jmay · Post by **Jmay** » Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:56 pm

Ok I'm sold on the 45/70 caliber especially since I reload! All I can find in lever action is new Marlin 45/70 and the Rossi 45/70 in stock around my area. The Rossi is less by quite a bit, If I went with Rossi you think I might regret it? I don't know much about the Rossi 45/70 never held one. I do have R92 in 357 I like but wood look cheap and action could use some work but seem built sturdy. Any advice, comment, or stories?