defense shot gun

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:01 pm

You guys are full of good advise---
I have an 18.5 inch Remington 870 tactical shotgun--one of those all black babies that looks scary and mean, holds 6 in the mag and one in the chamber. They make the same gun that holds 4 in the mag, but mine is a 6 capacity.

I want to get another similar gun, only something to add variety, a little different than the 870. Any suggestions as to what I might persue in the roughly same price range? Maybe one of you have a little pearl you are totally happy with, and I would be too. Let me know. Need a good defense gun to leave out at my barn when I'm out there working.

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:12 pm

Mossberg 590

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:14 pm

I always thought a nice Model 12 would be cool.....I too have the 870 Tactical....it's nearly perfect...

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:27 pm

Mossberg 930 SPX.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 6:48 pm

Stick with perfection

BC in TN · Post by **BC in TN** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:00 pm

While not of the same ilk as your 870 here's a good one:

http://www.ithacagun.com/defense37s.html

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:27 pm

I have a Winchester 1300 with extended magazine, smooth as silk, and 100% reliable. I got mine over 20 years ago so you'd have to get on a used rack. I believe the Defender is basically the same smooth action but not sure if still available.

One gun I always thought of as a great defensive shotgun is a hammer SxS double coach gun. I like the idea of keeping the tubes loaded (house with no kids) but without having a cocked hammer, and cocking as needed.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:30 pm

Might try to locate a Win 1300 Marine Defender. Stainless and plated IIRC and a smooth, fast action. Be a nice contrast to your evil black gun.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:30 pm

I like the idea of a SxS as well. But since you want black and mean.

http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firear ... efense.php

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 7:36 pm

SPAS-12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I749O5mavbg

or

AA-12 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOoUVeyaY_8

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:26 pm

I bought a chinese double hammer gun just for that purpose, it is always there, always loaded.
Black electricians tape over the barrels, with pin holes in the tape.
I have not got around to it yet, but it will live in a lamp with a chinese wood puzzle lock.

86er · Post by **86er** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 8:31 pm

Look at the Winchester SXP. Very smooth action, rotating bolt, good features and $379 MSRP.

BobM · Post by **BobM** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:15 pm

For defensive use I'd just get another 870 since the operation will be identical.

Treeman72 · Post by **Treeman72** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 9:29 pm

Mossberg 590 or 930 get my nod. One of our military MP wings uses the 590 for a pump. If that's not high praise....

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:10 pm

If you can find a H&R 20ga . Youth ..thats hard to beat...I think they have a 22 in. barrel and a slightly shorter LOP
00 Buck and your ready ..or 4 shot ..

I used to have the same set up ..but with a 18.5 in barrel..as one of my walking guns....good for aggressive wild dogs and yotes

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 10:31 pm

Another vote for the 590/500. I've had two 870's. neither of them liked dirt. If dirt gets behind the shell stops good luck cleaning it out, they are staked in place. The Army issues us Mossberg 500 pistol grips for breaching and 590's for other stuff. Lightweight and ambi safety.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sun Apr 28, 2013 11:27 pm

The 870, 500 and 590 are all in military use.

For a beater the 500s are hard to beat, just remember the safety's not in the same location.

The 870 will tolerate more abuse, longer, but for general use the 500 is fine.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:13 am

You won't really improve much over the 870, I'd suggest you get the same thing again so you won't be switching back & forth between two different types of mechanisms.
I have three 870s, each basically duplicates. If I pick up one, I pick up the same gun as the other two & operation is automatic.
I don't want variety, I want practical efficiency.
Denis

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:29 am

The 870 seems to be the standard that everything else is compared to, hmmm, I wonder why?

It's all I use. I'm looking for another Wingmaster right now myself.

Bill in Oregon · Post by **Bill in Oregon** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:17 am

Also consider the Turkish-made Weatherby pumps and gas autos. Well-made guns.
I too have heard good things about Turkish-made Winchester SXP.

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:46 am

I knew my Levergun friends would offer good stuff to think about. I'll let you know what I get----may go ahead and repeat on the 870 like I already own, keeping everything familiar. That Winchester SXP is nice too, in fact all the suggestions look plenty ok for the intended purpose. Thanks, I'll get back later when I score something on Gunbroker or elsewhere.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:46 am

The 870's rep is mostly hype. Put an 870 and a 500 in the back of a Jeep with a dirty wet Rottwieler and camping gear and do some 4 wheeling around the Rockies for a good part of the summer. I've done it. Pulling the 870 out for some target shooting and firing one shot before the shell stops jam up is not a good feeling. And it wasnt the first time. Yea, maybe that was abisive to leave it floating around on the back floorboard like that, but a shotgun with that kind of rep should be able to take it. He wants a barn gun. An 870 is the last thing I would choose.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:29 am

brucew44guns wrote:
Need a good defense gun to leave out at my barn when I'm out there working.

Not to go OT, but how about rethinking the logistics of leaving a weapon (presumeably loaded) @ a remote location (the barn in your case), and out of your direct control, where somebody with bad intentions could use it against you - nevermind some innocent fooling around with it & hurting themselves or someone else accidentally ?

FWIW, If it were me, and were that concerned, I'd just keep the shotgun with me.

.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:08 am

The 870 is the single most produced shotgun in the world because they work. Talk to Louis Awerbuck and Rob Haught, who per-year see more shotgun shells fired through combat type shotguns in simulated field conditions than we all collectively will in our lifetimes.

They prefer Remingtons because they tolerate abuse well. Mossbergs also do well (as both admit) but the Remingtons tend to survive abuse over long periods better. Cops, like infantry privates, can break anvils. Almost every cop car in the country, IF it has a shotgun (not guaranteed these days)...has a Remington. Cause they keep working.

Your gun was a sample of one, sore shoulder.. there's a few million 870s out there.

Paladin · Post by **Paladin** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:02 pm

Department issued 870s in 77 when I started and still does. The Police Magnum is built a bit better that some other models and they are tough. I have bet my life on them a few times and they have never failed. Saw a few of them at different Embassies around also. Rob Haught uses 870s for a reason. Either the Mossburg or the 870 would be a good choice.

horsesoldier03 · Post by **horsesoldier03** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:10 pm

Here is a nice Super Nova Tactical for $500 down in Newton, KS.

http://www.ksccw.com/showthread.php?t=50192

t.r. · Post by **t.r.** » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:07 pm

A short barreled 12 gauge side by side double makes a lot of sense for ending a fight right away.

TR

bakamorgan · Post by **bakamorgan** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 3:59 pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx-hdWXuXZQ

Is this how you handle a shotgun? Just saw this on cnns website today.

figured this would be a good spot to share.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 5:28 pm

bakamorgan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx-hdWXuXZQ

Is this how you handle a shotgun? Just saw this on cnns website today. figured this would be a good spot to share.

Yea, they probably want info on the victim so they can arrest him for violating the civil rights of the perpetrator.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:27 pm

Mr Murphy, you're right, there are a few million, and they all have the same design defect. I just happened to be one of the people who found it. If dirt gets in the reciever behind the shell stop arms, the 870 becomes a single shot as the arms will not open far enough to let a shell out of the magazine. Furthermore that dirt is very very difficult to remove because the shell stop arms are staked to the reciever, cleaning in the field is basically impossible as it requires hosing a spray cleaner into the area while prying the arms away from the reciever in order to flush out the dirt. The prying alone is a daunting task in order not to bend the arms or break the staking, both of which will leave you with the same issue as the dirt.

The Mossberg shell stops can be removed to clean this area, and, are not as susceptible to the issue in the first place.

So as long as you keep your 870 out of the dirt, it works fine. Expose it to a dirty environment and there is a large potential for failure, which basically makes the 870 a range and patrol car queen. Which is where it gained its fame in the first place.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Tue Apr 30, 2013 8:59 pm

When it came to "Home defense shotguns", I skipped the "pump vs. semiauto" thing, and went for a pair of "His and Hers" double-action 'revolvers'...

After I had my wife fire half a cylinder full (3 double-ought buck, and 3 slugs) through an old metal door, one look at the outside of that door and she was convinced...

Later (after she got more familiar with handguns and other rifles) we traded in the Striker shotgun(s) for a couple suppressors (which are most useful for helping train 'newbies' to shooting leverguns), and went back to more ordinary pump shotguns and lever-action rifles and such for 'home protection'.

Other than having the hassle of them becoming "NFA" weapons, I kind of miss owning those shotguns. Between me and my wife, and 12-shot cylinders full of alternating buckshot and slugs, there was NOTHING going to get inside our house if we were home...

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Wed May 01, 2013 1:34 am

Sore,
I think I'd have to disagree strongly with you on the "range and patrol car queen" where it "gained its fame from in the first place" bit.

The 870 was built as a hunter first, and as such it's endured the trials & tribulations of field use in far from sterile environments for well over half a century.
It may be susceptible to dirt if that dirt hits just the wrong spots, but in the larger picture the 870 has earned its rep as the premier pumpgun in BOTH hunting and LE/Defensive fields because it has an action that runs well through a wide range of conditions, and typically for many many years in individual service.

If you gunked a couple up to the point where they wouldn't function, that's hardly a condemnation of the entire 870 line.
I've heard of Mossbergs stretching their alloy frames with extended hard use, but obviously it doesn't happen to every single one, and those infrequent occurrences also don't condemn the entire Mossberg 500/590 line.
Denis

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Wed May 01, 2013 4:14 am

The Maverick 88 (made by Mossberg) is a best-buy for around $199.00, basically the same gun as the model 500 except the safety location which is by the trigger guard like a 870.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Wed May 01, 2013 4:24 pm

DPris wrote:Sore,
I think I'd have to disagree strongly with you on the "range and patrol car queen" where it "gained its fame from in the first place" bit.

The 870 was built as a hunter first, and as such it's endured the trials & tribulations of field use in far from sterile environments for well over half a century.
It may be susceptible to dirt if that dirt hits just the wrong spots, but in the larger picture the 870 has earned its rep as the premier pumpgun in BOTH hunting and LE/Defensive fields because it has an action that runs well through a wide range of conditions, and typically for many many years in individual service.

If you gunked a couple up to the point where they wouldn't function, that's hardly a condemnation of the entire 870 line.
I've heard of Mossbergs stretching their alloy frames with extended hard use, but obviously it doesn't happen to every single one, and those infrequent occurrences also don't condemn the entire Mossberg 500/590 line.
Denis

Depris, while I may have been guilty of throwing the 870 in the back of a Jeep with a dirty Rottweiler while camping and 4wheeling for a summer, it wasn't gunked up. I really thought "It's an 870, I can throw it in the Jeep for the summer and not worry about it". Wrong. And it wasn't "gunked up". It got some dirt in the receiver. And not a lot either. All it takes is a few grains behind those shell stop arms. Which are right inside the opening in the bottom of the receiver, not hard to reach at all.

As far as Mossbergs stretching, I thought everyone knew that is a myth? One propagated by people who want to say the 870's steel receiver is better than the Mossy. There are Mossy 500 trap and skeet guns with 10's of thousands of rounds through them and still going, no abnormal wear from the steel against alloy and no stretching.

So its been snowing all day and I'm bored, Googled 870 Shell stops. Not so uncommon of a problem after all.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=457328

The shell stops are the Achilles Heel of an 870 in my opinion and can fail if the gun is stored loaded for prolonged periods (as in a duty gun), shot regularly with high recoil ammo (slugs and buck), is stripped regularly (trigger group) or was built on Friday.

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=468679

I have a 60s vintage wingmaster that will not feed the next round from the magazine tube.

Being a Mossberg guy, I forget about the crud under them. I just drop them out and clean but they are staked in the 870...

The staked shell stops are the "weak link" on the 870 design and can give trouble. In your clean and lube, did you pull the trigger group?

I'd suspect a buildup of crud behind the offending shell latch,

http://www.fieldandstream.com/forums/-f ... en-problem

My Remington 870 Express Magnum has had feeding problems right out of the box.

The problem is that the "shell latch" gets jammed and will not release the shells.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewtop ... 7&t=270100

my 870 has failed is after a particularly sandy weekend where some crud had gotten behind the latch (ok I dropped it in some sugar sand) and inhibited its movement.

I wont even bother to post all the issues with people having to polish their 870 chambers because they wont extract.

Also, I forgot about another BIG issue with 870's, mag tube extensions. I had issues with those on two 870's, and apparently a LOT of other 870 owners do also. Between having to peen a dimple out of the factory tube without warping it and making sure the transition from tube to extension is smooth.

Mossberg's have a one piece magazine tube. The only down side is you have to buy one with a extended length, you can't extend it after the fact, and the long magazine is a bit unwieldy on a bird gun. My opinion? Buy two. Use the duck gun for ducks, and the Persuader or 590 for SD duty.

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Wed May 01, 2013 5:03 pm

What about the Kel-Tec KSG?? Two mag tubes and 12 rounds of 3" shells...gotta love it!

http://www.keltecweapons.com/our-guns/shotguns/ksg/

alnitak · Post by **alnitak** » Wed May 01, 2013 5:06 pm

bakamorgan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx-hdWXuXZQ

Is this how you handle a shotgun? Just saw this on cnns website today. figured this would be a good spot to share.

No...this is how you handle a shotgun!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... ee5r9FK9lI

or this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7AjaNwtKww

cas · Post by **cas** » Wed May 01, 2013 7:14 pm

Benelli Nova/Super Nova tactical.

Ji in Hawaii · Post by **Ji in Hawaii** » Thu May 02, 2013 12:19 am

During my dove exterminating heyday in the mid to late 80s I owned a Mossberg 500, a 870 Wingmaster, a Browning BPS Uplander, and a Winchester 1300 XTR Featherweight, and easily shot over a 1000 rounds through each during a relatively short period when shooting 200 rounds a day over several days in a row. Two pumpguns came out on top for reliability the Mossberg, and the Winchester. The Winchester XTR was much smoother and better looking than the palette-wood stock Mossberg so I kept the Winchester and sold the rest. Both 870 and BPS ran into trouble when getting a little dirt in the action. The Winchester was 100% reliable all the time and smooth as silk to operate that some thought it was a semi-auto hearing my doubles.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu May 02, 2013 3:21 am

Having seen AK's seize up.........anything can jam.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu May 02, 2013 6:55 am

I've seen posts sayin most 10/22's being unreliable, I've seen post sayin Savage rifles are inaccurate, I've seen post sayin the .30-30 being too weak for deer and yes, I've seen post sayin the 870's is a a bad shotgun. I take em for what they're worth..

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 02, 2013 8:55 am

L_Kilkenny wrote:I've seen posts sayin most 10/22's being unreliable, I've seen post sayin Savage rifles are inaccurate, I've seen post sayin the .30-30 being too weak for deer and yes, I've seen post sayin the 870's is a a bad shotgun. I take em for what they're worth..

I have a 10-22 that is a jamo-matic. It consistently jams almost every mag ful. There are 3 different mags which are very clean.

I've been told that they are easy to work on and next time I visit it I will probably try. But you know, if you had a jammer you would be less than enthusiastic about aquiring another 10-22, in spite of all the reports of reliability. Would you like to trade up into it?

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu May 02, 2013 9:48 am

Grizz wrote:
L_Kilkenny wrote:I've seen posts sayin most 10/22's being unreliable, I've seen post sayin Savage rifles are inaccurate, I've seen post sayin the .30-30 being too weak for deer and yes, I've seen post sayin the 870's is a a bad shotgun. I take em for what they're worth..
I have a 10-22 that is a jamo-matic. It consistently jams almost every mag ful. There are 3 different mags which are very clean.

I've been told that they are easy to work on and next time I visit it I will probably try. But you know, if you had a jammer you would be less than enthusiastic about aquiring another 10-22, in spite of all the reports of reliability. Would you like to trade up into it?

I'm sure that guns like that discourage some from certain guns and I can't blame them. If my first one had been a jam-o-matic I may of never picked up another. Of coarse I bought my first when I was 18 and since then I HOPE I've learned to not knock a whole line for one bad gun as some do, all manufactures will put out a lemon once in awhile. I even read a post from a guy saying that he's had five 10/22's and all were jam-o-matics

. He either doesn't learn very quick or he's full of BS. My experience leads to the latter.

As for the trade up part........ I don't need another 10/22 but if I did I would love to find someone with a jam-o-matic looking to unload it cheap. I have no doubt that with some elbow grease and maybe a couple bucks in parts I could have it running like a clock. It's definitely not a gun to be feared when it comes to tinkering.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu May 02, 2013 12:14 pm

the gun is a couple thousand miles away, but I do have occasional visitation rights.

could you post a foto heavy tutorial how-to that I could print and use to fix the jammer? I really would like to have a reliable ruger.

thanks

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Thu May 02, 2013 1:45 pm

Sore,
Every gun has a weak point & the 870 is no exception.
The weak point you mention certainly exists, but as one whose oldest 870 is a Highway Patrol trade-in from the late 1950s and one who worked with them both in the car & as a firearms trainer for my PD for a number of years, I have the background to say that if you take reasonable care of it & keep it fairly clean, the 870 tends to run for a hell of a long time.

In all the years I wore a badge for PDs that either issued or allowed private purchase 870s on the road, I never saw one go down. And I can guarantee that, while they were not tossed in a Jeep with a dirty dog, those shotguns were not babied, nor were they "car queens".
Depending on who had 'em, some were neglected, most were exposed to rain & snow, the department-owned 870s were rotated regularly from shift to shift, and I can repeat the "I never saw one go down" part as needed.

You did, I didn't. Can it happen? Sure. Does it happen? Sure. Does it happen to 100%? 75%? 25%? Or maybe closer to 2%? Or less than 1%?

The Mossberg receiver stretching is not a myth. The fact that thousands of Mossbergs chug right along without ill effects only strengthens my point in saying that millions of Remingtons continue to chug right along.

Both platforms have their strengths, both have their weaknesses.
Both will have a relatively small sampling of failures.
Those failures don't condemn either design.

Having worked with High Standard, FN, Mossberg, Winchester, H&R, Ithaca, Savage/Stevens, Benelli, Remington, and about six different brands of double-barrels, and bet my life on Remingtons over a period of three decades in uniform & out, the 870 remains my own choice for a general-purpose defensive shotgun.
It's simple, it's rugged, I have spare parts on hand that I can quickly switch out if something does go south (including entire spare trigger groups & bolt assemblies), all three have mag extensions that have never caused any problems whatsoever, and if I pick up any one of my three, I'm essentially picking up the same gun, which is what was behind my original point of sticking to the same platform & not having to switch operating types under stress.

That'd be, incidentally, the higher-quality Wingmaster & police versions, not the Express models that seem to involve 95% of the QC-related malfunctions I see repeatedly mentioned on several Internet forums. There IS a difference in 870 quality.

If your preference is a Mossberg, fine. My bro-in-law who shares an LE background & a firearms instructor background likes his 590. I don't exclude him from Thanksgiving Dinners because of it, I just stick to my 870s.

My involvement in this thread was to express my opinion that "variety" in defensive shotguns as mentioned in the initial post is a bad idea, merely for the sake of "having" variety, and then to address your commentary about the 870's "large potential for failure" and it gaining it's "fame" from being a "range and patrol car queen".
I'm not insisting that the 870 is the only way to go, just saying it's a very well-respected way to go, and that's because it's been a proven gun for millions of users in all sorts of conditions for over 60 years.
And I'll stand behind my assertions.
Denis

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu May 02, 2013 4:21 pm

DPris wrote:My bro-in-law who shares an LE background & a firearms instructor background likes his 590. I don't exclude him from Thanksgiving Dinners because of it, I just stick to my 870s.

I may soon have a son-in-law who is a 'Glock person' due to occupational requirement (LEO); does this same rule of tolerance apply to those of who are '1911 people'. . . ???

. . .I suppose we could make him sit at the 'kids' table out on the porch. . .

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu May 02, 2013 5:32 pm

I'll bet my life on a Glock or an 870. If u torture any gun enough, you are gonna find a weak point and eventually it breaks down, as with any machine with moving parts. These two have a better reputation for durability than anything out there. I'm well heeled with both.

DPris · Post by **DPris** » Thu May 02, 2013 6:03 pm

I carried an issue Glock. They wouldn't allow my 1911. I did try.

My son-in-law is a Glock man. He doesn't get excluded from Thanksgiving, either.
He also doesn't try to tell me my 1911s are subject to "large failures" with fatal design flaws.
He knows I clean my Colts & don't leave 'em knocking around on the back floorboards of a Jeep with a dirty dog all summer.
Denis

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Thu May 02, 2013 6:10 pm

1911's are what you show your friends, Glocks are what you show your enemies.

BTW I carried a 1911 for 7 years. My favorite elk rifle is a Savage 300wm, and I would never say a bad word about a 30-30.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri May 03, 2013 1:36 pm

DPris wrote:
The Mossberg receiver stretching is not a myth.

Ok, I have a simple question.

If the Mossberg receiver is stretching...what is specifically causing the stretching?

jmortimer · Post by **jmortimer** » Fri May 03, 2013 2:45 pm

The most reliable in the elements, between the 500 and 870 is the 500/590. You can't really go wrong with either one. They will both last a long time, indefinitely. The elevator on the 870 can be a real wake-you-up finger pincher. The lower elevator position on the 500 keeps dirt out and makes more sense. Regardless, typical Ford/Chevy argument. I would be happy to have both. For around $200.00, the H&R Pardner Pump, an 870 clone, is the best deal out there in my opinion.