I need advice

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:42 pm

Some years ago I sent a rifle to a lever action gunsmith to make me a 50 caliber Alsakan . The gun took forever to have made. In the interim I also sent this man another model 71 for a 50-110 to be completed after the first one was finished. After well over a year It seemed I would never get the first gun and I called the local police in the area for help . They told me this man did good work but was slow . I waited and finnaly got the rifle which did have great workmanship ( exept for a basicly unusable folding tang peep site that one has to lower to work the lever ) so I went ahead with gun number two . He assured me this one would be much faster . One year ago from last Christmas I recieved an email from him that he would send me a picture of my gun in a few days as it was about done THis was once again a LONG time after it had been started . Weeks went by , no picture when I inquired their was allways a reason , his son was visiting , the weather was bad etc etc . I left it alone for about SIX MORE MONTHS . Then I was told it was done but just the lever needed reshaped , I asked for a picture , never got one . I decided since it was about done to invest in a period long brass scope , and to have the gun case hardened . When the scope arrived he said he put it on the gun and itr worked great, I asked for a picture , never got one . Four more months went by and I told him I HAD to have the gun to take to Reno where their was going to be a convention of gun engravers etc and I wanted to leave it with one to have it engraved . He said it had been at a place getting case hardened , I wanted to call them my self but did not get the name of the company when I asked . Finnaly after lots of calls he told me the gun was on the way back from where he said it had been sent for case hardening . He assured me I would have it back in time for the show . I kept calling and was told he got the gun and all he had to do was screw it together and i would have it for the show . Again I asked for a picture of the gun , was told I would get it sson . I got no picture . January came and went as did feb and half of March , not a peep . No pictures no calls , no emails. I have sent emails with no replies . I can call but will just hear of all the reasons its not ready . Frankly I have saved the money to pay him for the job about six times now when it should have been ready and when months went by had to spend the funds to live . What do I do ? Do I call the cops again and why is this necesary ????? Should I tell who it is , he is on this site !!!!!Has anyone else gone through this ????

mescalero1 · Post by **mescalero1** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 9:58 pm

I would like to know, you can PM me if you prefer,I am sorry for your predicament, but if I HAD THAT HAPPEN TO ME ;I WOULD TELL PEOPLE WHO ASKED ME.

jdad · Post by **jdad** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:15 pm

I would let them know that if they don't start following through that you will post their company name here.

I would do it anyways. You've been more than patient, with their "customer no-service".

kimwcook · Post by **kimwcook** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:20 pm

I found myself in that kind of situation with a custom gunsmith years ago. I bit the bullet and let him keep the piece and do the work to which I was very pleased. It took an extra year and a half, but, that doesn't address the problem of promising work and then not delivering and not delivering and not delivering. As I've gotten older I don't care who is going to do the work or is supposed to do it. Either your up front with me and you deliver, at least close to your estimated turn around time, or you can bite my a&&. I won't put up with that stuff anymore. It's not good business and it just infuriates me.

You won't drop your car off to anyone and have a three day job turn into three months. I won't tolerate it. It's just bad manners. And, I'll tell anyone who will listen what the situation was. It's not libel or slander, it's the truth.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:27 pm

kimwcook wrote: You won't drop your car off to anyone and have a three day job turn into three months. I won't tolerate it. It's just bad manners. And, I'll tell anyone who will listen what the situation was. It's not libel or slander, it's the truth.

I agree 100%. I have never had any serious work like that done on any firearm, but for the life of me I can't understand how any project like that can turn into year long affairs.

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:37 pm

I'd probably give the fella a chance to come clean and deliver without postin' his name. I'd give him a week at most and then run his underwear up the "lever gun" flagpole so to speak. I'd be frank with him and let him know that this was going to happen-if the Rifle was not in my possesion within a week. That's more than fair and gives him a chance.

On the other hand, I would not want my fellow "lever gunners" to have to go through the same type of experience. As the saying goes, "a man is only as good as his word!"

On another note, if he's a "lever gunner," perhaps he will see all these posts and be man enough to contact you and deliver the rifle.

Mich Hunter · Post by **Mich Hunter** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 10:53 pm

I have been there also. Wind River Rifle quoted me 6 months to restore a 1876 Win for me. Almost took 2 years to get it back. Email after email, phone call after phone call same old story. They just need to put it together. I had to threaten them sevral times to get it back. I was at the point of calling their local DA. When I did finally get it, the work I requested done was not. I asked for a CC frame and it was blued. I asked for a round barrel and I got an octagon. The rear ladder sight was replaced with a full buckhorn. I called an emailed to complain and never got a response. I will never send anything to them again and will bad mouth their service to anyone looking to sent it their way. I should have asked around more and shopped for a better one. I know how you feel. I would give him 2 weeks then call him on it.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:03 pm

There's "doc's" and then there's "witch doc's", I don't deal with "witch doctors"; although I've dealth with folks that I've been told are out right thieves and liars. Usually I've gotten told that AFTER my dealings are complete. But... I've found there's ALWAYS two sides to each encounter. I've even been told by a 'smith, yep, we had bad dealin's; it wasn't ALL his fault, nor was it ALL mine...

From what you describe, I wouldn't deal with him again. Secondly, after the 1st failure, put all agreements IN WRITING. Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:34 pm

Thanks all for the support I emailed him and demanded a picture of my gun by tomorrow . This guy should give me the work for free for all the hassle , the phone calls , the trip I lost plane tickets on etc that I was supposed to take the gun to get engraved and just plain torture . No picture tomorrow I post the works . How do I get emails to send private posts to ? Thanks

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:37 pm

eagles wrote:Thanks all for the support I emailed him and demanded a picture of my gun by tomorrow . This guy should give me the work for free for all the hassle , the phone calls , the trip I lost plane tickets on etc that I was supposed to take the gun to get engraved and just plain torture . No picture tomorrow I post the works . How do I get emails to send private posts to ? Thanks

Just click on the "PM" box below the poster's info.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:40 pm

Done , thanks !!!!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Mon Mar 17, 2008 11:42 pm

Oh yea, where're my manners? Welcome to the Forum! Sorry it took such troubles to bring you here. But, stick around, we may all learn a thing or two!

wm · Post by wm » Tue Mar 18, 2008 8:54 am

I would be angry and unreasonable if someone treated me this way.

Well more angry and unreasonable then I usually am.

Is he a American Gunsmithing Guild member? If he is you might be able to file a complaint with them and I would also check with the BATF, and the Better Buisness Bureau in his state. I understand quality owrk takes time but I am old fashioned enough to believe that if you make a promise then you keep a promise. Particularly if you are being paid to do so!

Wm

P.S. I am considering having some similar work done, would you share with me off line (PM) who I perhaps should avoid? Think of it as protecting my health because this sort of thing would play havoc with my blood pressure and ulscer.

.45colt · Post by **.45colt** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:37 am

These people are in My way of thinking one step from being a "lowlife" they talk all kind of stuff to keep the customer at bay while they go along with a happy little day.

they don't really care when the job gets done or if it is right. I have taken two building contractors to court and once hired a local automotive shop to paint My Wifes car,when I stopped by the shop in midweek her car was in pieces and when I asked if it would be done on time, the meatball who was there said He didn't think so as the boss left his wife and wasn't comeing in all week.
I went knocking on doors that day and finally found this guy and He then understood the car was going to be finished on time. My blood boils when I see the same-old routine. If I had to I would take a vacation and walk right into the guys place of business and demand my gun back.And pro-rate what was done. Sorry to ramble on but honest People don't deserve this. Good Luck and Yes tell us the name of the shop. Jim.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:50 am

an update . I emailed this person , once again , last eve and sent them a link to this thread . I am also VERY sure they read this site often ,maybe daily. I said to please just send me a picture of my gun today so I could see the work on it . If I did NOT get that today I would have to reveal the source of my frustration . I also said I believe they should at this point do the work for gratis considering all the hell I have gone through , the loss of my trip to the engravers show etc .( why should people get away with this for free ? ) Did I get any kind of response, Hell no . Now I am sure if I call them they wil be nice as pie and say they never saw my emails. I find when they want to correspond they get my emails just fine and when I complain they never see them . This person has two emails , one no longer works (and it gets returned so you can see that) the other goes through , it would seem just fine . I believe this person does really good work , and when you talk to him he seems vcery nice BUT the Customser service is beyond abusive . I have PM'ed a few people , would you please PM me back and let me know if you have had or heard similar experiiances with him ? . Thanks .

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:02 am

I personally don't care what kind of problems a 'smith has, whether they are business or personal related. Before getting a job done I ask for a "ballpark" turn around time. If he tells me six months, I will not pester him for 8 or 9 months----then I will call him up and see what is going on. If I get double talk, I demand he sends me the gun back immediately. Dave Clements gave me a 6 month turn around time on a Great Western SA. A year later he did not even look at it telling me "this 'n that". I told him to ship it back. After I got the gun back I ran him down every chance I got.- Tough, he don't like it---neither do I like getting bs'ed to.----------------------Sixgun

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 10:14 am

If any of you know any of the gunsmiths ON the lever action forum web site under lever action gunsmiths please post which ones you know and I will pm you if it is the right one to see if you can shed any lite on my problem , and to see if you had a similar experiance . I am really trying not to hurt this guy .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:17 pm

tick -tock , tick tock the day is waning and no response from this guy. Later I post his name

Terry Murbach · Post by **Terry Murbach** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 12:36 pm

LET ME SEE IF I GET THIS RIGHT. YOU WERE NONE TOO PLEASED WITH THE SERVICE THE FIRST TIME AROUND AND YOU--YOU!!--WENT RIGHT AHEAD INTO A SECOND PROJECT WITH THE SAME GUY.
NOW YOU COME ON OUR SITE HERE--WITHOUT SO MUCH AS A HOWDY DO-- ALL IN A TIZZY ABOUT IT AND EXPECT TO USE OUR GOOD GRACES TO BAIL YOU OUT.
IS THAT ABOUT IT ?
I WOULD SAY YOU'RE TOO LATE TO EXPECT US TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT AS YOU NEVER ASKED US IN THE FIRST PLACE. NOW BE A MAN ABOUT THIS, TAKE IT THE WAY IT HAS WORKED OUT, AND LEARN FROM IT.
STOP AND THINK NEXT TIME ABOUT WHAT YOU'RE DOING AND WHY.

Rimfire McNutjob · Post by **Rimfire McNutjob** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 3:57 pm

I'd say welcome to the forum, but it looks like Terry just did that in his usual highly capitalized style.

Since you are currently in possession of the "first" rifle as noted in your original post, how about some pictures of said rifle. It's in the bylaws or something I'm sure about posting your rifle pics as a newbie.

HEAD0001 · Post by **HEAD0001** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:17 pm

I had a Gun Smith in Peru, Indiana steal $500 from me. The only reason I got my rifle back was I was going to report it stolen. He still kept the $500 I sent him. I should have sent the money in a Postal Money Order. His name is RICH SCOTT. I have no problem pointing out his name. A liar is a liar. Excuses are for people who do not do what they say they are going to do. After he told the first lie to you, the second one becomes easier. Hopefully he is not out of state. If he is then good luck. The cops will tell you anything. Remember guns are Federal laws. Report the rifle stolen. Then let him explain himself. I am tired of liar's. Tom.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:31 pm

Terry are you related to this guy or what ? I came on this site because. 1. I found this guy from this sit in the first place !!!! (Didnt know that did you Terry ) Thought others may have gone through the same thing , I wanted to know if that was the case . 2. Maybe its a lesson I can save others from the same fate (I can assure you from some PM mail that seems so ). 3. If you read my post more carfully you would haveEseen I had sent him the second gun BEFORE he finished the first one . He Promised me the first one was a fluke so I BOUGHT IT and he allready had my gun . As I said the workmanship was good . . . Tell me Terry how could YOU or anyone here bail me out ? Was I asking you to pay the guy I never mentioned a visit ? I was simply aksing how you ( but not really YOU ) would handle it , but in your case Ill pass on your helpful adice.

Now did it work , well YES. I have FINNALY recieved an email from him and pictures of my gun IN PIECES . It was apparently never put back together . BUT since I got the email as I asked I will hold off on naming this culprit until I see if he follows through . Thanks to everyone else for the great advise and to those I sent a PM to I hope I have helped you some .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 4:48 pm

Sorry I dont have any way to do that at the moment . BUT if you give me your email address when I can Ill take a few and scan them to you . it is a high grade model 71 with a 36 inch barrel , express sites and folding usless tang peep (cant operate lever with site up )half magazine and bullet trap in butt stock. Barrel was sent out to Micheal Gouse for some engraving he does GREAT work .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Tue Mar 18, 2008 9:20 pm

well as I said I got pictures but no explanation for the awful delay, he did say I was right it had taken to long (duh ) . I got a picture of the action not assembled and barrel held in a vice with my scope screwed on top , that was it . No fee was given as what I was going to be charged for this affair etc. I emailed back that I needed to know what kind of price I would be charged ( I still think free is the only fair price, or at best cost ) , when it would REALLY be put together . So far no reply to that . My opinion if he wants to get the respect of the potential customers here, he owns up for all the BS and sends me the gun for nothing and then at least the next guy might HOPE he drags him arround for years . I think these guys should be paid on a sliding scale , every week it goes over what they promise $100 comes off the quoted price . Want to see the pics PM me . I must say if it were not for this forum I am not sure when I would ever have heard a thing . Bill

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Wed Mar 19, 2008 10:00 am

ok he has come through ,giving me a very fair price on the gun , redoing the stock to put the cheekpiece I wanted and promising it will be done by March 28. Ill let everyone know when it arrives .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:34 am

ok I was promised my rifle would be completly finished by tomorrow . I emailed today to ask if I could see a picture , funds are ready to send . So far no reply of any kind . Ill report tomorrow on if he keeps his word .

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Fri Mar 28, 2008 9:24 am

Eagles, wow, what a patient man you are. I admit I'm a little more than curious who the smith is, as I have some work I'd like done to a rifle that definately requires a smith and I was considering one of the fellows from the old Leverguns homepage. I sincerely hope this turns out well. Sounds like the smith is either backlogged, has some personal issues, needs to retire, or all 3.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:12 pm

OK I recieved an email on the day I was to get the picture , the 28th, that the stock had just arrived a few days earlier ( since he was supposed to have swapped it for a cheek piece one ) my thoughts are it never had a stock on it at all until , perhaps now . Anyway I was to get the picture that evening. I replied that if sanding was still being done , the finish must not be on the gun yet , how long would that take ??? NO reply . So far today , no reply . I emailed a short time ago and asked for the picture of a finished gun I hope !!!! I told him I had the funds ready to send , when I see a complelty finished rifle . I hope we are not going in circles again and this is consistant with how things are supposed to happen but hardly ever do when said . I am sure their will be a storm that makes the finish not dry correctly , a defective piece of wood etc that will account for the current delay

brucew44guns · Post by **brucew44guns** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:39 pm

I buy most rifles or handguns because I like them factory, and live with them that way, although I'm not against modifications to your guns. My original 71 works exactly right as is, I don't need a 50 Alaskan made out of it, or try to staighten the grip from the pistol grip, and reshape the lever and saw off the barrel or anything of the sort. I have this attitude due to all the heartache stories I hear from you guys about taking your guns for modifying to some butcher, waiting several years, then getting back 100% in contradiction to your order in return, for mega bucks spent. No thanks, but thanks for telling of your bad experiences.

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 4:54 pm

I don't think I've ever patronized a gunsmith who could stick to a firm schedule. Sh*t happens.

Having had the pleasure of waiting impatiently several times, and missing scheduled events because work wasn't finished, I chose the path of never sending a gun to have work done that I could not replace, and letting my chosen gunsmith take whatever time he needed.

Some men are up-right, and will admit they took too long, or gave you a poor estimate of how long it would take, and others take real offense at being hounded, or at feeling like they are being hounded. I think we had a member here just recently whose gunsmith turned out to be a fly-by-night character. The fellow asked for results one too many times and his gunsmith finally told him to pound sand, gave him back a box of parts, and told him to get lost.

I once asked one of our Leverguns resident 'smiths how long a job would take if I sent it to him and when he said it would take "months", I found someone else who said "weeks", and am very happy with the work he did and found an excellent gunsmith to boot. Not criticizing a forum member, just saying that a guy has options.

Get your gun back, and then discuss your concerns with the gunsmith.

Would you tell off your barber while he had the clippers on your head?

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:10 pm

I think you're way out of line wanting it for free, especially in light of the "or else" turn your posts have taken. I too have waited several years for guns that were quoted at several months, but I can't abide by your actions. If you want to bitch about the smith by all means please go ahead, but don't try and extort free work with the threat of doing so. Maybe that's not how you mean it... but that's how it's coming off.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:11 pm

Getting the gun back is the goal. Frankly their will be nothing much to discuss with him once that is done , unless of course he sends me somthing bad. Talking about it here , as it seems was the ONLY way I got any response from him at all . And finnlay I was able to at least see a picture of the parts of the gun . I am giving some consideration because I was told the stock was being changed (although in the picture sent , no b previously finished butt stock could be seen . I left him alone for a LONG time .

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:30 pm

Hey, I ain't sayin' that you've got no reason to be in a twist, I'm saying that sh*t happens, and sometimes you've gotta play the cards that somebody else deals.

If you get what you want out of the deal, you'll have won the battle. I just don't think I could walk away from your situation without giving my antagonist some constructive feedback.

Does being slow make him a bad gunsmith? In my experience good ones are hard to come by, so I'm not certain I'd cash that chip.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 5:54 pm

Yes Cas my posts have taken the or esle tone. I tried polite emails , polite phone calls . I tried being sympathetic to every excuse . I asked for pictures just to see if I even had a gun left , and got none., until i made those poste here . I got into many fights with my wife over holding back funds for each appointed "it will be ready by " date I was given . When we needed the money for other things . I was afraid to loose my rifle . When the dates came and went I looked like a fool and turned over the funds , only to have it happen over again . What options were left ? Call the police , file a law suite ? Abide by , maybe Ill get it before I get older and die ? I was given a fair price by this man to finish the job and I agreed to it . I emailed him that once again I have the funds here ready to send him at once if he just produces the finished gun as he said he would , even on the day of the 28th . So far that has not occured . I have gotten physically sick over this a few times and if I were the smith I would give the customer the gun at no charge, but I will be happy to pay what he asked at this time if I can just get it . Cass if you can abide by years of frustration then that is ok for you but it also may account , if more people are like that for why some gunsmiths think they can tell what ever tales they choose . As far as custom makers are concerned I have dealt with MANY over the last 35 years . Most of them produced the work in very close to the appointed time and or called me with up dates and work pictures . In those cases I was happy to wait realizing they were really working on my gun . Many of us are not satisified with off the shelf guns and wanting more is not an excuse for bad behavior . now I have said this before this man does GOOD work , and I will report on this gun when I get it and hope it is a rave review. in the past Gunsmiths signed their letters to their customers "YOUR HUMBLE SERVANT " and refelcted on how they valued and treated their customers . We should demand the same treatment or give the work to some one else , not tolerate Years of torture .

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:15 pm

Yes but wanting answer and wanting "free" are vastly different things.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:24 pm

Free ,hahahaha, what is free ? , domestic fights , worries , high blood pressure ? stomach aces, headaches, hardly free . Answers come first, if they dont happen free comes on down the road . Free isn't even the right word , try COMPENSATION FOR MENTAL ANGUISH AND SUFFERING is better . Remember in this world their are only two things, results and reasons , and reasons don't count .

Rexster · Post by **Rexster** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:44 pm

eagles, you join a forum, and immediately, before establishing a reputation, start whining. Then, you show disrespect toward Will Terry, without bothering to do a little research to see who he is. All of this stuff about calling the "cops" and "tick, tock" really irritates me. If you are an adult, please act like one.

cas · Post by **cas** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 11:26 pm

Obviously you shouldn't be buying custom guns if it causes you such problems.

I'm sure the man has bills to pay, just like you.

(Add me to the list for free custom guns. I don't mind waiting two years.)

otteray · Post by **otteray** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:11 am

eagles wrote:Free ,hahahaha, what is free ? , domestic fights , worries , high blood pressure ? stomach aces, headaches, hardly free . Answers come first, if they dont happen free comes on down the road . Free isn't even the right word , try COMPENSATION FOR MENTAL ANGUISH AND SUFFERING is better . Remember in this world their are only two things, results and reasons , and reasons don't count .

While I am anguished by your long and torturous wait; the altruistic part of me has to ask:
Have you sought out professional mental health advice?
If this situation wounds you so grievously that you are blinded by the rage that you have expressed, I would ask you, as a new friend on this forum, to please look into yourself and acknowledge your cry for help.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:51 am

Some of You guys are very funny . I am 56 years old and iIhave been dealing with custom gun makers since I was twelve years old as my father started me on that path . Can't tell you how many I have had built from scratch of all kinds I must have been dealing with a different bunch of guys than some of you seem to be used to accepting abuse from . Even worse , thinking it normal and no big deal and the hysterical part is when I am angered by the abuse it is ME that needs mental help . Oh boy. If you like cutting yourself with razors, or other self mutilation also its your perrogitive . I am just used to smooth transactions . You see most all of the gentleman I have dealt with never lead me down this path that seems to be the accepted norm by some of you . I say some because the VAST majority have expressed the same grief I have posted, have emailed me in private telling me their health could not sustain such torture . At any rate If expecting a fair and honest dealing , if being mad at being lied to , put off and bull shitted to makes me nuts , then I guese I am . My job was shut down a year and a half ago , I started a new career , got caught up in the mortgage mess and almost lost my home , in the process I kept hording away the funds to pay for the "job" that I kept being told was "allmost done " because I gave him the job to do , that was on me . Then the money would run out and I would be forced to the horded portion to survive and then I became worried I would loose my gun I could not pay for , as surely it was just about done. What would I say when the bill came due ? This happened over and over , so yes it made me very upset as I was trying like hell to live up to my end of the deal and be forthright in my dealings and not loose my gun . I only asked the same . If that makes me nuts I am VERY happy to be so. By the way I have no problem waiting two years for a gun IF Im am told it will take two years. If you take your car in for repair and are told it will take a few days , what will happen if then week after week you are given excuses and you get it back in two years ??? oops I must be going nuts again because I would NOT put up with that, it would make me angry and maybe other more sane people would see no problem ? Gota go take my meds !!!!

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:27 am

Preface: I'm not sure I really want to post this, but... since I took the time to write it up, I'm going to anyway. I have no personal stake in yer situation, but don't blame ME if you don't like my answer... So, since you asked:

Here's what I do. My first custom gun was a Winchester 94, I had three different 'smiths work on the gun. One did the metal finishing, one did the stock fitting, another set the headspace and test firing. The only out of state guy was the guy who color cased the receiver and some other parts. But... it took me several months of research and confirmation of references before I sent the metal off to him. Gun turned out nice, IMO:

On other projects, I gave a guy a small job, if done satifactorily, I will give that same guy another job, maybe larger, or maybe just another small one. I'll tell my friends and others that ask what a great job I got done. I refuse to listen to those that will detract from the guy's reputation. For I have no knowledge of what led them to their conclusion, I only KNOW my personal experience. When time comes for a really "big" job, either in scope or in complexity, I give them the 1st opportunity to take this one. I let them know going in what my expectations are, they then tell me if they're capable of fulfilling my expectations.

Last year I sent off a Colt SAA that had developed an "endshake" problem, asked for his evaluation and a quote. Since he'd built a gun that my son had won, he also got another gun to build a mate to the one my son won. Cost and time frame were handled on the phone. He'd done several action jobs for me over the course of years, so I just asked that when he sent my son's guns back, give me the quote on the Colt. I received my Colt back along with my son's; it had a new cylinder, an adjustable mainspring, been reblued, the front sight reshaped to match it's original contour (I'd bent and filed it for POA) and regulated for POA with loads like I shoot. A nice note was enclosed, something to the effect, "hey, your Colt needed a bunch of work. Merry XMas, thanks for the referrals and past business."

He's getting my other Colt, & I almost hate to think what it will cost!

But... I'll still ask for a quote and how soon I can get it back; or I may tell him I need for a certain match... with complete expectation he'll get 'er done. But... if an issue comes up, I 'spect he'll let me know well in advance; and make it right. A) 'cause that's been my experience with him; B) he knows that's what I'd do. I like him, consider him a friend... but; he's in business; and I'm simply a client at that point.

I asked him about another project, he told me they are unable to do the work I need; so I asked their opinion of others he'd use for his personal work of that sort to get done. I was given a recommendation and references from prior clients of that individual. I'll be asking those references how THEY came to chose the individual, and if their choice was based on recommendations of others, I'll ask for contact information and permission to follow-up. I'll even asked the suggested party for recommendations from his LEAST satisfied customer. I feel I can separate the wheat from the chaff and see thru a simple disgruntled client. I'll take all that information and then make a decision on whether to proceed with work.

It sounds complicated and time consuming. But... in doing so on past jobs, I've never lost a gun or any other project to slipshod workmanship; work is performed in a timely and satisfactory manner. I will not pay for work in advance, however, if material is required that is inordinately expensive, have assurances that it will be solely designated for my project, I will advance same. By this time in a negotiation, I have a very good feel for the integrity and character of the person I'm entering in a contract (written or verbal depending on the particular project), and have confidence that their word is meaningful.

The above is still no guarantee. I haven't been stiffed, nor have I stiffed a craftsman. There are projects that have changed in the course of their completion... but, both the craftsman and I are aware of the changes, and either agree to proceed or scrap it.

One thing I won't do, I DON'T use email for detailed business dealings to resolve any dispute, especially on a first time deal. It is unprofessional on both parties part. That said, I have emailed inquiries of interest and potential costs. I have emailed craftsmen to inquire of their availability or capabilities. Any estimate for work is to be given in writing, (email works, but is not the best method of communication). If, and they have, deals are either misunderstood, or work is substandard, I will write a letter, it will be sent via registered mail, return receipt requested. To resolve a problem, I will ask the craftsman to also respond in writing. When a resolution is arrived at, I will write the craftsman and ask for his signature on such resolution and return a copy to me.

This works whether it is to install a water heater, or repair a vehicle, or just about anything. I just had work done on three BP guns by a fellar in CA I only knew by reputation. I had several referrals that described him in the same way folks describe Steve Young, the ackowledged expert. We discussed the project scope and cost via phone. I sent him the guns with a letter detailing my understanding of the work to be performed and the costs for said work. Since there was no time frame discussed other than, "when you get to 'em", in my letter I asked for an estimate of the time for their completion, and a note that I would pick them up in person, just let me know when that can be. He did, I did, and... I think we're both satisfied. I'd say we are, as when I picked up the first two, I dropped off another. When I picked up the 3rd, I left off one of the first two for further work, (hadn't been contemplated in the initial go-round). 2-days later he called, said that work was done, but asked if he could proceed with another mod he recommended. I concurred, he then asked where to ship the gun as he'd be finished with that the same day, (he'd misplaced my addr.) I asked what the total of the charges were and to wait to ship till he received payment. We'll see, I actually expect to receive the gun prior to him ability to receive payment... just got a gut feeling. But, if not, no hard feelings. He's in business, after all.

If, and I feel I must stress the IF, I do have an issue, and I'm unsure on how to proceed, I consult with a lawyer friend as to what my options are, how he'd recommend I proceed to forestall any real conflict. This is exactly what I did during a recent negotiation over an accident that left one of my vehicles inoperative pending location of the responsible party, their insurance's evaluation and final resolution of the costs for repairs and the loss of income from that vehicle. Sure, there were some sticky parts, took almost 5 months for the completion of all negotiation and lettes back & forth, etc. I conducted myself as professionally as I expected them to, and I must suppose that they felt the same. All parties met with a satifactory conclusion; I received compensation, they got the all important waiver.

But, what I didn't do, is go on a public forum and ask for advice from who knows who. Now, since I've been here for a couple of years, I have established a little feeling for the character of a few of the folks. I have PM'd a couple to ask some advice of. In both cases, I got good advice, which I followed. One was in dealing with my perceptions of another forum member, the other with a challenge of dealing with a death in my family. I hope and pray that I will not again need such, but... never say never.

As an aside, when dealing with artisans or craftsmen, (& I include gunsmiths in that category), I try very hard (and it is hard) to stay out of their hair. I don't interfere with methodology or specific processes unless it is germaine to the work being contracted for. For... as a former craftsman myself, woe to the silly horse owner that told me HOW to shoe his horse. I have enough respect for horses not to do something that I KNOW will be damaging to said horse, but... if you know how hard it is to find a good horseshoer, don't p_$$ off the one you currently have. For, unless he is a hack, he has some standing with both his clients and others in the trade. I've had clients that I refused to work for... and told other horseshoers why... I've then had those same clients call back and apologize for their rude and ignorant behavior. Yep, their price just went up, for oranges seldom change into apples, my teaching credentials might be outta date... but imparting wisdom should not be without compensation.

Frankly, as others have said; s__t happens, when a project goes south, it usually doesn't do a halfway job of it either. Suppliers fail to perform on their commitments, other projects come along and in the interim, they may take precedence over one stalled. Yes, to you they may sound like excuses, but... to the artisan or craftsman, they are legitimate and very real.

Next, sometimes, we're our own worst enemy. I learned a long time ago, at the publics expense, (for I was a public servant charged with such activities), that negotiating the best, least financial cost deal for my employer, may actually be a bad deal. Like I told an engineer one day, who expressed a desire for a widget of a certain make & model, & that all other like widgets were inferior because.... (technical stuff I don't understand); he was grousing about the need for a public bid, wherein the award goes to the lowest cost widget, (Public law, ya know); "There is no such thing as a bad article purchased at the lowest available price under a public bid... only poorly written specifications that allow a substandard product to qualify for bidding." It was like a light bulb was turned on. If a sledge needs to be an 8 pounder, treated for corrosion, and of a certain handle dimension; don't just ask for a 8 lb sledge.

All of which is a long-winded way of saying, you can pay for a quality project or you can pay for a cheap project. Projects costs are reflected in tangible dollars and TIME. A fer instance: you ask a guy to build you a quality project gun for X dollars and he agrees; say at the time you enter into this agreement, he's slow and has sufficient motivation to take on your project. Then a delay or two comes along; and a very lucrative project gets handed to him... let's see, which provides the most incentive to motivate him to completion?

You mentioned above about some financial challenges you were facing during this project... did you ever communicate, even unwittingly that this was a concern, that a delay might be in your interests? Even subtle hints might have been interpreted as an aquiesance on your part to deviate from your original schedule. Frankly, in many of my various careers which span from fence post digger, horseshoer, sailor, policeman, public contracting agent to stupid, lazy, inconsiderate truck driver and lastly to fleet owner, I have found that there are ALWAYS two sides to any dispute or agreement; and seldom is only party entirely to blame.

Now, don't take all this personally, as I don't know you, nor do I know the gunsmith; (& don't need to), but... sometimes our issues are with ourselves, not others. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the subject gunsmith is someone that I've used with great satisfaction, as I've had that experience also. It's like friendships, Roger and Bill can be the best of friends, as can Roger and Dan; but Dan and Bill hate each others guts. Doesn't necessarily lessen either friendship, just don't invite all 3 to dinner the same nite.

And, lastly (I'm sure to everyone's relief), frankly, since you asked, I would not have waited as long as you apparently have to ask for my gun back. And, I would have used some of the techniques described above to minimize my culpability. IMO, you've bought into the delays, lock, stock & barrel; so to speak.

I do hope it resolves itself with your receipt of a fine, quality, custom gun. And, in the spirit of the forum, please post pictures of it... at least speaking for myself, I'd like to see what all the fuss was over.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:21 am

Griff ,thanks for the long reply.nice model 94 !!! No I never mentioned ANY problems I was having that would indicate taking longer was good . That would have seemed like the perfect reason to wait a few more years . Frankly I like the guy, which is why I did not just start of posting his name . I DID want him to see , in public I was NOT happy with the way it went . Guese what , after these posts he agreed with me that it has taken him to long . He does really good work which is the reason I did not go further in actions and what what I do with a box of parts handed back to me ? Start over with some one else ? I have no local people to use for jobs like this and so I have to trust what I read and take some chances when I am in a new area . BP guns I know well and have dealt with some of the finest custom makers in the usa in the past with great results (exept for one time MANY years ago where a guy in wyoming took my money and everyone elses and left town , later was arressted and made to complete his orders or to have charges filled against him . I had a choice and let him complete my order ). Referals are powerful tools that all craftsman should keep in mind . I took a saddle to a guy , ( Yes my full time career now is training horses and riders in classical Baroque riding ) I asked him to change the seat shape and he said it would cost about $600 and it would take a month or so . I agreed . Then he called me back saying it was a lot more work than he thought (after it was complletly ripped apart ) and the price was closer to $1,100. Further he was not sure he could put it back together , as when all the nails came it it weakend the tree and they could not go back in the same holes , and he asked me if I wanted my expensive , imported saddle back in a box of parts , then he could make me a new one for $4,000 ! I declined that offer and told him to put it back together . Now This is guy is VERY good and I knew he could do it . Many months went by,maybe nine , I never called him because in this case I did NOT relish spending that money very quickly. Finnaly he called me and said your saddle is done . I called him and asked him to tell me the price it ended up at and I would pay him what I could right away and weekly until it was finished, he could keep the saddle until it was paid for . He said , I took way to long on this and I know I changed my price on you after the fact . I know you have clients now that really like your work as they are in here all the time talking about you , take the saddle for no charge and just send me referrals . HIs wife rides and I offered to give her free lessons until the full bill was paid but he declined that also saying, I said it was at no charge . Now I am sending him LOTS of clients , at least four so far who want to order expensive custom saddles ( about $4,000 each ) so he did a smart thing , busines wise and I show the saddle to everyone who comes here , I tell them the story and he is a hero to them (not to mention the work is great ) Somtimes these things can work out for both sides . The gun I am waiting for is a Browning Model 71 which has had a thirty inch barrel put on , new stock , flat rubber pad, dead mule recoil reducer installed in the butt stock, rechambered to 50-110, color case frame , folding marbles type peep and an old time looking long brass and steel scope with external windage installed , but trap for cartridges . Isupplied the model 71 and the scope . I had a company make me some 650 Grain spire point slugs for single loading ,long range shooting , hence the scope , for fun . I also have an engraved 405 model 95 ,engraving done by Gouse engraving who does super work . In the future if I can ever get the funds I want a new model 76 in 50-95 . I have tried to find anyone who can make install a set trigger on my lever gun like the old winchesters had and I think I have found one (since I was able to relocate some old schematics ) but it will probably only work on the 76 repro with some modifications . even Turnbull has had problems designing one for the model 71 as it has different springs (coil instead of leaf) than the older models .

Jarhead · Post by **Jarhead** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 8:57 pm

I am not going to be a "Leather Lung," about this issue, and think you have a valid complaint, but can see where some might think you should have re-considered your decision after you had some problems after the first rifle you had him work on. He admits to taking too long,(so be it) but now is willing to make it right. Be patient, hang tuff, and I'm sure you will be pleased with the results, as you have been in the past. Best wishes....

As Griff related, it's always a good idea to really do your home work, but even then, "Sh*t Happens."

Looking forward to some PICs....

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:15 pm

I agree, I should have taken the gun back . He allready had the second one and I fell for the story the second one would be much faster . I goofed their . Ill send some pics when I get it and report on how it was finished etc .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 03, 2008 7:14 pm

was hoping for some great news but not yet . No gun , no pictures of a finished gun . Ok ,last friday it was expected to be done according to the email I was sent . Monday the finish was just drying expected it to be done that day . I waited till thursday , three days past the point I was told the finish was just a little tacky and asked about it ,pictures etc and was told HE WAS NOT JUST GOING TO THROW iIT TOGETHER , it is a one of a kind gun and must be done nice, while I surely agree with that portion (must be done nice ) I pointed out , once again I was just going by what I was told , last friday and monday . I dont know now really where it is at . This has been the recurrent theme , tell me it is about done , I get excited , wait well past the expected time period , I push for a result when I am not contacted again and then am told HEY I WONT RUSH THIS , IT MUST BE DONE RIGHT . It is a very unpleasant merry go round . I am posting just so you can see the pattern. In the past I could wait three months , six months you name it and still get the same type of bait and switch reply . I am not waiting that long between contact now . No need to reply I am just giving an update to all those who are watching for an end result and have sent private emails also .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Thu Apr 10, 2008 5:50 pm

An update , last eve I was sent a picture of the gun , it was a partial picture of the action and butstock area . From what I could see it looks real nice. I was told it was ready to ship to me and today I overnighted the funds I was asked to pay as I said I would as soon as a finished picture was sent . I asked for the gun to be sent to me by three day ups and I will report on it when it arrives .

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 5:56 pm

Here is the latest , as I said I ran ot the post office and paid for overnight delivery of the funds asking the gun to be made ready and shipped out to me as soon as the funds arrived, us postal money orders . The next day came and went and the mail failed to deliver as promised . I told him it was assured it would be delivered today . Today they knocked on his door at 1:57 in the afternoon AND NO ONE ANSWERD !!! The money was taken back to the post office and I ws told if not picked up with in five days it comes back to me and we start over again !!!!. I have gotten no word back on emails to him about this today . Do you think realizing the funds would be their today it might have been a good idea to be home at mail time , leave a note to leave the package, or have some one else their to get it ? Now , while I was hoping my gun would be on its way we are dragging it out till monday .

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 6:35 pm

I get the impression you're anxious.

Not unexpectedly so. However, Sat. if often a day filled with family obligations that sometimes take precedence over all else. Mind ya, I ain't makin' excuses, but... sometimes a fellar HAS to drop everything to keep the lil' woman or kiddles happy and outta yer hair while you do that which feeds 'em. Been there, done that.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:24 pm

eagles wrote: Today they knocked on his door at 1:57 in the afternoon AND NO ONE ANSWERD !!!

Eagles, first I want to say, 'welcome to the forum'. I hope you'll take what I say next as some well-meaning advice from someone who has sincere intentions. The stress level of your last post tells me that you are letting this matter get control of you and it is taking away your enjoyment of life. I never rush a craftsman. Good things are worth waiting for. Never want something so bad, that it starts controlling you. There are some very important things in life; this is not one of them. I'm sure you will be pleased when you receive your rifle and I, for one, would love to see photos of it when it is done.

eagles · Post by **eagles** » Sat Apr 12, 2008 9:11 pm

Yes things can happen !!!!!! Ok , been told he will pick up the money orders on monday . I asked him to take the gun with him to the post office , get the money orders and hand them my gun to send back to me three day priority mail , insured with proof of delivery . Maybe can report a nice gun on wed . Bill

I need advice

I need advice

Gun Smith

Its allmost the 28th