45 ACP vs 9mm

El Chivo · Post by **El Chivo** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 1:50 pm

I was reading "American Gun" by Chris Kyle, which by the way is an excellent read - the history of ten different firearms and how they shaped American history.

He was quoting from an account by a WWI soldier who said, regarding the 1911 Colt - that in close quarters, the Germans who were shot by an American died on the spot, whereas the Germans who shot an American were then killed by the American, who then walked to the aid station and either made a full recovery or died from infection later.

One thing I've noticed about 45 ACP, it must be subsonic, because once at the range I passed behind a guy shooting them and I could see his bullets on their way to the target. And with so little powder in the case, I have been wondering how effective. Currently I have .357 magnum, and I have been thinking of getting an automatic, and I was thinking 9mm. But this 45 ACP sounds like a better round for close quarters.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 pm

The adage, a heavy, slow round penetrates further than a light, fast round is as true in pistols as it is in rifles. That, plus, blood flow from a .452 hole is greater than thru a .355.

Being able to see a projectile from the muzzle to the target is most often just a trick of the light. If the sun is behind the shooter, what you're seeing is either a reflection off the base or, more accurately, the reflection of water molecules being disturbed in the vapor trail left as the bullet passes thru the air...Or some such silliness which I probably ain't rememberin' quite rightly.

Malamute · Post by **Malamute** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:15 pm

It's not unusual to see bullets in flight when the light is right and they aren't going too fast. Usually having the light behind you is good for seeing bullets.

Interesting comments on the different effects of the two rounds. It doesnt surprise me. Shoot some game with round nose pistol bullets of any type and you quickly wonder where any reputation of stupendous "stopping power" came from. Having seen rabbits run off after body hits with 44 spl, 45 auto and 45 Colt round nose loads, I have little faith in them, though I think they are better than smaller round nose bullets. I shot one pack rat 4 times with 9mm ball before it gave up the ghost and fell off the barn wall. There just isnt much shock effect with round nose bullets of any size, but bigger is better I believe.

" ...That, plus, blood flow from a .452 hole is greater than thru a .355..."

I don think theres much blood flow from any caliber round nose bullets. When Jim Cirrillo was doing his work in NYC, he said coroners told him they couldnt tell the difference in bullet wounds from a 32 or 45 if round nose bullets were used in both.

My own examination of bullet wounds in game left me profoundly underwhewlemed as to the wound for a round nose load compared to a true Keith type bullet or hollow point that worked.

L_Kilkenny · Post by **L_Kilkenny** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:16 pm

Military engagements and LEO vs. bad guy engagements are completely different than civilian vs. bad guy engagements. The function and mindset of the good guys is different, the mindset of the bad guys is different. What's needed in one may not be needed in the others and vice versa and that doesn't even address ammo advancements and what's available to civilians and not to military.

The .45acp has a long history of a decent fight stopper, the 9mm not so much but most of that is based off military and LEO reports like the one you posted. IMO, in a civilian vs. bad guy engagement, not one bad guy in a hundred is gonna react differently between the two.

But lets toss out that the pinky size 230gr .45acp is just plain cool. It's 9mm European originated counter part? Not so much

.

msmith1228 · Post by **msmith1228** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 2:37 pm

Have you thought about a 10mm?

Pisgah · Post by **Pisgah** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:31 pm

To me, the main advantage of the .45 over the 9mm is the fact that, even without a modern expanding bullet, you've got a .45" hole and a bullet heavy and fast enough to penetrate. Both cartridges have been getting it done for 100+ years, and both have been significantly improved over their original forms through bullet technology. I can feel well-armed with either -- but I carry a .45.

tman · Post by **tman** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 6:22 pm

Modern hp bullets in the 9mm, 40, 45, and 357 cartridges produce one shot stops close enough, not to matter, if u buy into their science. I'd go with what gun I shoot and conceal best, because this debate will never end. My belief is the man behind the gun always trump caliber, stopping power,ballistics,premiun bullets, etc.

stretch · Post by **stretch** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:00 pm

The 45 DOES make a bigger hole. That said, I don't feel undergunned
with a 9mm.

-Stretch

pwl44m · Post by **pwl44m** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 7:29 pm

Just find Yourself a nice old Colt mod 1911 and be done with it.

Under gunned with a 9 - no, over gunned with a 45 - no.
Perry

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 8:59 pm

There is a very simple answer here that has been overshadowed by decades of assumption, speculation, and unscientific writing.

From 9mm up to .45 ACP, auto pistol cartridges may or may not kill with one shot, and statistically, they are pretty much the same in ability to kill.

Cartridges in this range have something else in common - they are likely to require several shots to kill quickly.

Recently, good studies of real-world terminal ballistics (from real-world shootings) show that standard semi-auto self-defense cartridges (9x19 to .45 ACP) perform pretty much the same in a person, which is not that great compared to a rifle cartridge, and most people shot with a pistol live through it (shot placement, anyone?).

The idea that .45 ACP penetrates much better than 9mm is not really true, and 9mm is often a better barrier penetrator than .45 ACP.

The idea that HP 9mm negates the .45 ACP's advantage in diameter is not always true, since expansion depends on lots of factors, and per coroner's reports, the best HP pistol rounds could be expected to expand maybe 60-80 % of the time, depending on the bullet and what it hits.

Energy dump (deceleration of the bullet in flesh) has pretty much been discredited as a killing factor in standard auto pistol cartridges (other than the factor of what vital organs are physically destroyed by the bullet itself as it decelerates). At the very least, no one has ever been able to prove that energy dump, or hydraulic shock, or whatever, is productive as a wounding factor.

Under stress, people fire a lot of rounds. You can see this in realistic courses as well. One round may have killed the threat, but between the time that round hits and the time that he realizes he is dead and falls, and between when he starts to fall and when he actually hits the ground, you may fire another 6-10 rounds.

The trend for crime now seems to be toward multiple assailants as well, so capacity is definitely a consideration.

So the clear answer is that both will perform in a pretty similar fashion. Both have proven to be effective. Both will likely require multiple shots to kill quickly.

So weigh all of that and get what you like in a reliable pistol that you shoot well, that fits you needs, and that you enjoy. Keep it somewhere between 9x19mm and .45 ACP and don't worry about what the other guy says.

Edited because my daughter hit my elbow, causing me to bump the mouse, which clicked submit, so I went and made supper and came back.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 9:42 pm

Okay, I'm going to say this, but I'll deny it later.

With ball ammo, the .45 acp has it all over the 9mm.

With today's high quality jacketed hollow points it really doesn't matter.

Put the round where it's supposed to go and both work. Miss the vitals and neither will work.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Thu Sep 05, 2013 10:49 pm

With ball i'd take a .45 or .40.

With modern loads, I'll take 18-25 9mm in the gun over 8-14 .45's.

My current duty weapon's a .40 mostly because I couldn't find a 9mm in time. Carried a .45 for 14 years as a carry gun mostly because replacing it would mean replacing 10+ magazines, five or six holsters and about 15,000 rounds in training.....so it stays my carry piece for now.

Seen a bunch of people get shot with both ball and JHP. Seen guys die from 1 round of 9mm FMJ and soak up multiple .45 JHPs or .40s and live. Mostly, shoot a lot, shoot center mass, shoot till they hit the ground, reload and make sure they're not still moving. Any of the major calibers I'm fine with, but having a whole lot of them is good.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:02 am

I like .45 ACP. I like 10mm. I like 357 SIG. I love 1911s, SIGs, XDs, CZs, etc.

I carry a 9mm Caracal. Once I spent some time with one, I had to. With the Caracal in 9mm I can shoot fast and accurate and can comfortably conceal and carry 73 rounds.

This was my choice - not a matter the best way, the only way, maybe not better than x, but I chose what was important to me, without a lot of stress over gunwriter propaganda or gun counter lore. I would not push that choice on anyone else.

I have to repeat though, "You show a 1911 to your friends. You show a Glock to your enemy."

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 10:07 am

Marshall and Sinow did an exhaustive study of one shot stops from actual shootings. With the right ammo they are nearly equal. 9mm Fed 115 gr JHP +P+ was 89.47% and 45 ACP Fed 230 gr Hydra-Whok was 90.56% one shot stops. The best was .357 Mag Fed 125 gr JHP which achieved 96.96% one shot stops.
These are from their first book but there is a newer one out that has the latest loads listed. Not much change but I am hearing very good things about Federal's "Critical Defense" loads that will be out soon. They are currently doing seminars for law dogs with the new stuff penetrating heavy clothing,dry-wall, ply-wood, double steel, (car door) and windshield glass, (angled) into ballistic gelatin. Hollow point is filled with some flexy, sticky silicone like substance. All loads penetrate about the same 14" into the gelatin behind the barrier.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:18 am

I like the Marshall and Sanow data as it's based on real world shoots rather than just lab tests. Over reliance on lab tests and ballistic gelatin to the exclusion of real world data was what led to the mistaken belief in the energy dump theories of the 1970s and 80s as well as the subsequent lots of penetration with a 9mm 147 gr HP FBI preference of the 1990s. Both had some spectacular failures in law enforcement use.

However, the Marshall and Sanow data has some limitations:

1) About 40% of the stops that occur are psychological stops where the person thinks "OMG I've been shot! I don't want to get shot any more!" and then flees. In that case any round will probably be effective provided the person knows he's been shot. I'm not sure the .22LR qualifies here as he may not know he's been shot, but from .380ACP on up, you're probably GTG for a potential psychological stop.

Marshall and Sanow partially controlled for this by only looking at cases where the person collapsed and was unable to continue an attack after being hit once, or if he fled, collapsed within 10 ft. They also only considered torso hits (rather than extremities) where rapid loss of blood pressure or disruption of CNS functioning was possible. The problem is that many people have watched numerous hollywood shoots on TV and are conditioned to believe that getting shot causes you to fall down. So, the data is still skewed by people who stopped and fell down just because they were shot. The reality is that getting hit with a 9mm round has about the same impact as dropping a 10 pound weight about an inch and a half - it won't knock you over but many people seem to fall down with non life threatening hits anyway. Consequently, the aggregate results may not comport well with a specific case with a determined attacker who really wants you dead.

2) The sample sizes are small given the stringent data and shoot requirements they imposed. That poses some serious validity issues and limits the degree to which the aggregate data can be generalized to all shoots, or applied to any specific shoot.

3) In their first book, they only look at single hit shoots, so the ability to put multiple rounds on target in a given amount of time is not considered. That's a major flaw.

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I like both the .45 ACP and the 9mm Parabellum, but for different reasons.

I find a 3" 1911 to be very easy to carry and to be very controllable even with 230 gr +P loads. It's a good choice for concealed carry as their is little reason to ever leave it home. The downside is that it has a 7+1 capacity.

I like the larger holes the .45 makes and I like the reduced muzzle blast and flash of the lower pressure round indoors or in the dark. On the other hand, I like the ability to put more holes in an assailant in a given amount of time.

Thus I like carrying a Browning Hi Power as again I shoot it very well, and it has a 15+1 capacity. Some of today's hollow points are quite reliable, but most importantly, I can put 5 rounds in the A zone of a target at 7 yards in the same period of time it takes to get 3 rounds on target with the .45 ACP. (More on this below.) The downside is that it's a little longer and bulkier than a compact 1911, so it is mostly a "winter only" proposition.

All pistol rounds are inadequate in terms of "stopping power" regardless of how you define it. What's needed to get an immediate stop is a hit in the central nervous system (brain or upper spinal column) or a cardio-pulmonary hit that results in rapid (10 seconds or less) loss of blood pressure. The more rounds you can put in the target the better the odds that one of them will accomplish that, and that strongly argues for the 9mm over the heavier recoiling .45 ACP. It's enough of a difference to offset the larger holes the .45 ACP cuts and at least even the odds.

I also like having twice the magazine capacity in the event a multiple assailant shoot ever develops, but to be fair in a single shooter scenario, it won't make much difference as most shoots are over in 5/5/5 - 5 shots or less, at 5 yards or less, in 5 seconds or less and the rest usually end at slide lock where the reload is a non-factor in the outcome. Still, 16 rounds is nice to have...

From this perspective, I am not a big fan of the .40 S&W, .357 Sig, .400 Corbon, 10mm, etc. All recoil more than a 9mm (the 10mm a lot more) and lack the 9mm magazine capacity, as well as lacking the diameter and effectiveness of a .45 ACP. So, like most compromises it sacrifices both ends of the performance spectrum for some nebulous and poorly identified 'benefit".

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A thoracic surgeon I knew back in my investigator days had learned his trade in South Africa and estimated he had operated on 1500 gun shot victims. His opinion was that the 230 gr FMJ was the most lethal pistol round. Now...before people rise up in revolt, consider the reference sample - the people he operated on - they were gun shot victims who all lived long enough to make it to the OR. To me, that spoke volumes as if you have to carry a hard ball round, you probably want a 230 gr .45, but almost any hollow point round is probably better at getting immediate incapacitation.

Lethality is different than immediate incapacitation. Five hits with .22LR in the torso probably won't get immediate incapacitation, but it is highly likely to be lethal given the multiple wound tracks, the complexity of the damage, the number of systems compromised and the problems of fixing all that even with modern medicine. In comparison a .45 ACP hollow point has a higher likelihood of producing immediate incapacitation, but if not, a single hit in the torso will usually be less lethal than multiple .22LR hits as there is only one wound track and fewer systems that are compromised.

Reading in between the lines, multiple hits from anything are likely to be more lethal, but what matters in a lethal assault is stopping the assault immediately, so the general rule is to keep shooting until the assailant is down and out of the fight. In that regard the FBI has recently changed their training emphasis from longer range accuracy to shooting rapidly at 3 yards or less. This is in response to analysis of how agents are killed in the field with the data suggesting most lethal encounters occur at very short range in very short periods of time.

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Some people treat FBI requirements as sacred, but they reflect a different set of requirements. They want more penetration in large part because they may be shooting through barriers like car windshields, or may be shooting at a fleeing felon with less than optimum aspect angles. As a civilian if you are shooting at a fleeing assailant, you're going to jail as you're no longer under a threat of death or serious bodily injury as the attack is over. Similarly, if you are shooting through barriers, he odds are you are well out side the lines of a legitimate self defense shoot. In most cases a self defense shoot will be on an attacker facing you (good target aspect angles) at 5 yards or less with no intervening barrier. The biggest challenge the round will face will be heavy clothing such as denim or leather plugging the hollow point and preventing expansion. Consequently, Denim tests are worth looking at, but all the other frequently cited LE performance metrics are not something that you should put forth are your primary requirements or consideration.

And, you'll note the change in FBI training, which in and of itself negates some of the argument for selection of a duty round weighted heavily toward barrier penetration. It will be interesting to see how that impacts future adoption of rounds, although I suspect institutional inertia will still leave the requirement and capability highly valued.

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In short, 9mm versus .45 does not make much difference. What matters is that you shoot what ever pistol/caliber combination you pick very well. It has to fit you well and you have to practice with it a lot under time pressure and stress, shooting not just accurately, but quickly - learning to deliver accurate controlled pairs and double taps.

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 11:31 am

My vote for personal defence is a 38/357 S&W hammerless DA revolver over a semi automatic.

1) The lethality of the .357 magnum round is as good as any other, and lethality depends more on the shooter
2) A hammerless revolver or internal hammer automatic is less likely to get snagged being drawn
3) A short barrel revolver and small frame revolver can still be discreetly concealed, though perhaps a small SiG or Walther would be best.
4) A loaded revolver ALWAYS has a round in the chamber and is a single double-action trigger pull away from being fired. 1911's are single action and have to be charged/cocked to be fired. Double action automatics like the Beretta M9 can be unsafed and fired quickly, but must be carried with round in the chamber. Otherwise they have to be charged before being fired. In the heat of the moment, with adrenaline, I don't want to have to stop and try to remember if I charged the weapon.
5) A double action revolver S&W has a smooth trigger pull that is easy to fire, but is a heavy enough trigger not to be fired will shaking from fear or adrenaline. Automatics have much lighter trigger pulls after the first shot when the rest are in single action mode.
6) While automatics carry many more rounds than revolvers, as was mentioned earlier, a self defense situations is different than Military. Careful practice and a once shot one kill disciple should be sufficient in my mind to make a 5 round S&W a good personal defense weapon. Now, if you are a security guard, a policeman, a detective, or some other person where the need to use your weapon is LIKELY and the engagement is probably more than just a single or pair of attackers, then you are more into a military style engagement and an automatic would be good.

The above are my personal opinions why I favor a revolver over an automatic for personal defence. Practise is another. Because I used a Baretta M9 in the military and have shot so often, I would be comfortable with using it for personal defense. I am familiar with the safety, the trigger feel, the raise extractor position when loaded, all the habits of long time use and familiarity. I don't know that a home user new to a particular gun would have those reflexes during a situation unless they had taken sever training courses on a regular basis.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:00 pm

good info from knowledgable people. at this point I usually post this image, which seems to encapsulate a lot of the posted info:

Handgun_gel_comparison.jpg

I use fmj fp ammo in the .380 and that penetrates to the same spot in water as the 9mm gold dots I carry in that. In some real life tests the .380 rates better as a stopper than the 9mm, probably because no one has enough ammo to just spray and pray. My guess is that the mouse gun shooters are more careful about where the bullet goes. I posted that study sometime this year but don't know the link offhand.

I agree that quantity is an important consideration and is the chief reason I don't carry revolvers around town. I don't want to run dry first.

As for recoil, my 3" xdsc 9mm recoils more than my 1911 45, and the 1911 is universally the preferred pistol of less experienced and weaker shooters, but largely due to the trigger. Including my 100 pound daughter in law, who can hit with the 45 at the 5 yard zone. I didn't let her shoot the xd because it might have escaped her grip.

From the 5 yard line my wife can keep every shot in the kill zone with her LCP and it has an atrocious trigger until you make friends with it.

Thanks for the experienced perspectives, it's something I hope I never need to aquire.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 12:32 pm

El Chivo wrote:I was reading "American Gun" by Chris Kyle, which by the way is an excellent read - the history of ten different firearms and how they shaped American history.

He was quoting from an account by a WWI soldier who said, regarding the 1911 Colt - that in close quarters, the Germans who were shot by an American died on the spot, whereas the Germans who shot an American were then killed by the American, who then walked to the aid station and either made a full recovery or died from infection later.

One thing I've noticed about 45 ACP, it must be subsonic, because once at the range I passed behind a guy shooting them and I could see his bullets on their way to the target. And with so little powder in the case, I have been wondering how effective. Currently I have .357 magnum, and I have been thinking of getting an automatic, and I was thinking 9mm. But this 45 ACP sounds like a better round for close quarters.

The key thing----------------The type bullet for intended purposes.
I would absolutely(just me)put a .45 ACP at a huge advantage over a 9mm. I mean look at the offerings now available in .45ACP
Stoke your .45ACP with some Underwood 185gr bonded JHP at 1200fps(600ftlbs)and you won't be watching them trail.
It is all in what you want and when protecting loved ones(screw the ammo cost)(some people might stagger in a few FMJ too??)

If it is an automatic handgun you want and want to just go (bananas, because you can)and be done with it (searching for what if)---cause we like to play at the shooting club and see what is the biggest/baddest/reaching out farthest still being bad etc. in a carry able semi (27ozs) then ------------------------- This says it all---and that one is with only the 6.0 inch barrel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUyQ-E9aEnI

Go for the gusto(treat yourself,why not)-----buy a full sized Glock 20 and order a 6.6" Lone Wolf barrel and heavy spring-----

Then have yourself a 1738fps (905ftlb)200yd shooter(the 200yd thing ---maybe

(sure will reach it with oomph if you can do your part) that every time you shoot it you go-------------------------ya all go Wow!!!

Just something about that combo----guys at club shoot the BIG 63oz .454 Raging bull and say (nice)then they shoot that light packable Glock 20 (LW barrel w/Underwood ammo and say-----------------------Wow!

Without question-----Glock 20(6.6" LW barrel)

Then say( .357 big heavy 6" revolver they be for wimps)

Why not----------when you can????????

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:31 pm

All automatics are loaded and ready to go, all the time. If they're not it's either in storage, you're Israeli-trained, or frankly, an idiot.

1911s are designed to be carried cocked and locked, and should be. The Beretta and similar autos are designed to be carried loaded, chambered, hammer down and OFF SAFE (despite what the Army thinks, read the original requirements) and are perfectly safe to do so, and fast.

Self defense can happen in many situations, and barrier penetration is not necessarily a given that it's a 'bad shoot'. You don't get to pick the fight you're in, you just have to try and survive it.

The one time in the last fourteen years of carrying as a civilian I had to draw, it was a multiple assailant (four) situation and in/around two cars, a 1999 4-door Blazer and a early 80s, maybe late 70s Cadillac. Having seen several Cadillacs of that age get shot up (popular pimpmobiles), they tend to be pretty bullet resistant, and barrier penetration would be important. Same for auto glass.

Thankfully they realized their target selection failed when I began to obviously draw and the two others with me were highly likely (to them) to also be armed, though they weren't. Three of those four guys in the same car were picked up 2 weeks later for a fatal drive by. I had 21 rounds of 230 grain HydraShoks on me, and against four dark skinned guys in the dark, even under excellent lighting (parking lot of a burger joint) against moving targets I'd have gone dry in a hurry.

In the 12 years since, except in a very few situations such as the military where I had no choice in armarment, I've rarely ever gone out without 25-45 rounds on me. I've known several other guys who were in multiple badguy situations where lots of extra rounds and a fast reload would have been good.

One guy was walking and accosted by 3 guys, he had a Chief's special and a speed strip. He got off five rounds and if I remember right, hit one guy before he went dry since all three rushed him at close range. He went hand to hand against the other two and managed to get away, but having 15 9mm's at that time might have changed the equation.....

This was also in daylight, in a reasonably good area but somewhat secluded (walking trail in a park I believe).

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 2:34 pm

madman4570 wrote: Why not----------when you can????????

Because when chooseing a carry gun/cartridge combo, the question is not, "What can I do just because I can?" but "What will best fit my needs, and secondly, my preferences?"

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 3:07 pm

Mr. Murphy your post was thrilling and amusing. But I stand by my concerns. Most americans are not ex military or ex police. Most are not going to have years of training and muscle memory to correctly draw an automatic during a moment of crisis, panic, confusion or fear. Keeping an automatic chambered, cocked and off safe is just too dangerous for me.

1911s have an incredible array of safeties to make them safe, but for a person in their first confrontation, in fear for their life having to draw a weapon, aim and choose to fire or not, I'd rather have a double action revolver.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 4:11 pm

FatJackDurham wrote:Mr. Murphy your post was thrilling and amusing. But I stand by my concerns. Most americans are not ex military or ex police. Most are not going to have years of training and muscle memory to correctly draw an automatic during a moment of crisis, panic, confusion or fear. Keeping an automatic chambered, cocked and off safe is just too dangerous for me.

1911s have an incredible array of safeties to make them safe, but for a person in their first confrontation, in fear for their life having to draw a weapon, aim and choose to fire or not, I'd rather have a double action revolver.

Statistically, American civilians have a better average of hits on target per rounds fired at an aggressor than police do.

Very few military personnel have any good pistol training. Emphasis is on carbines and rifles, and for most soldiers, the pistol is a "Here you go, qualify twice a year, hope you never need to use it" weapon.

A lot of military and LE training is poor, a lot is good, and a lot is irrelevant to civilian or off-duty self-defense. In my experience, a some members of the military and some LE officers are shooters. The majority only rarely or do not ever shoot on their own initiative.

Please do not fall into the error of thinking that civilians somehow lack the skill to defend themselves - this is exactly the lie that the anti-gun crowd has been preaching.

Any person (a civilain is no different than a soldier or a cop) that can draw, aim, and shoot a revolver under stress can draw, aim and shoot a semi-auto pistol under stress.

No one advocated carrying a pistol cocked with the safety off. If you don't want to worry about a safety, get a double-action/single-action semi or a striker fired pistol that does not have a manual safety.
I have never understood why people who are comfortable with carrying a revolver loaded and ready to fire with the pull of a trigger feel it is unsafe to carry a semi-auto in the same condition. If you prefer, a semi-auto can be carried with an empty chamber - provided you get the correct training.

I love revolvers, especially single-action revolvers. Law enforcement and military both used to use single action revolvers, then double action, then semi-autos. The advantages that the military and LE agencies found in that semi-auto pistols have over a revolver are the same advantages that civilians can take advantage of in choosing a semi-auto pistol.

Most modern semi-auto pistols are extremely reliable.
Most are less delicately built than revolvers.
Many shooters find a semi-auto easier to shoot accurately than a revolver (talking about a DA, not SA revolver).
Semi-Autos tend to be quieter to shoot.
Semi-autos are easier to reload.
Extra ammo is easier to carry.
Followup shots are faster.
Malfunctions are easily dealt with and rarely will take the pistol out of action.
Semi-autos can have a higher capacity, critical in the initial contact.

I am not against anyone carrying a revolver - it's fine if you prefer it. I am against anyone suggesting that civilians should restrict themselves to revolvers because they are not [trained/elite/special/trustworthy/whatever; take your pick] enough to carry a semi auto.

1894c · Post by **1894c** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:12 pm

the LE Agency that I serve uses .40S&W, it has served us well, especially in the last three OIS's (Officer Involve Shooting)...it works, so does the 9mm, the .45acp, Sig357, 45Gap... :)

tman · Post by **tman** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 5:53 pm

Split the difference. The best handgun for CCW is the Glock 27, loaded with an 11 round magazine, with 2 15 shot mags in your pocket and a 22 round mag in your car. Loads from buffaloe bore pretty much equal any 45 acp loads. There, it's settled and you can close the post.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:19 pm

What 7.62 said. I never advocated carrying a 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED.

I've been shooting 1911s (and revolvers) for over 20 years. Over all the pistols I've shot, my round count is probably in excess of 30,000 rounds if not more. My military pistol 'training' consisted of 90 rounds per year, 45 for practice and the other 45 immediately after to qualify. I put more through a pistol in a single range session. My current training regimen for duty (to meet the bare standards for the state quals) consisted of 1,000 rounds over five days. The actual qual took fifty rounds.

I have no problem with people shooting wheelguns, I more or less learned to shoot handguns on a 4" Model 10HB and a 1911 and can shoot them well. But your average moron with five hours of training can effectively shoot a Glock well enough to defend themselves. Proper training can take a weekend, real training takes years of repetition, but guys got sent into WW2 Europe armed with a pistol for covert work with literally, an hour of training in some cases. You'd be surprised what people can do.

I have no particular issue with DA/SA guns carried chambered off safe hammer down, but I prefer Glocks and M&Ps precisely because there is no thought involved. Draw and fire. And having 15-18 is better than six, with a 1.5 second reload. Not everyone is Jerry Miculek.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:23 pm

MrMurphy wrote: I have no particular issue with DA/SA guns carried chambered off safe hammer down, but I prefer Glocks and M&Ps . . .

I would tend to agree, provided the DA/SA pistol does not have the safety on the slide. On the slide, like a Beretta, designed so that the act of charging tends to put the pistol on safe, is dangerous. I prefer a DA/SA or striker-fired pistol with no manual safety to one with a safety carried in the fire position, as there is then no chance (however unlikely) that you might draw and find the pistol is unexpectedly on safe. Better to be thinking about the situation than why your pistol isn't firing . . .

Edited to add no manual safety - I am a fan of things like grip safeties on XD and 1911 pistols, firing pin block safeties, etc.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 6:31 pm

FatJackDurham wrote:Mr. Murphy your post was thrilling and amusing. But I stand by my concerns. Most americans are not ex military or ex police. Most are not going to have years of training and muscle memory to correctly draw an automatic during a moment of crisis, panic, confusion or fear. Keeping an automatic chambered, cocked and off safe is just too dangerous for me.

1911s have an incredible array of safeties to make them safe, but for a person in their first confrontation, in fear for their life having to draw a weapon, aim and choose to fire or not, I'd rather have a double action revolver.

I'm with Murphy on this one.

Police qualification in many jurisdictions is disheartening, in terms of the course of fire used as they often do not include a combination of accuracy, speed and movement. It can also be disconcerting to see the number of officers who may struggle to qualify and need extra runs to achieve a passing score.

Most officers are not "gun people" and the 2 to 4 times a year they qualify are pretty much all the shooting they do. In contrast, a fair percentage of concealed carry shooters are "gun people" who shoot often and shoot well. A number of states also require training that includes live fire qualification for a concealed carry permit, so they are, at least initially, meeting a similar standard to law enforcement officers (a low bar, but similar none the less).

We used to have several local LEOs as well as a couple FBI agents who would show up at our local tactical pistol shoots and their intention was to become better shooters, especially in situations where speed, movement and time pressure were part of the course of fire. Those that stuck with it did become better shooters, but they were a minority of the LEOs in the area. And even those shooters after a few matches were at best average compare to the rest of the civilian field.

I shot when I was an LEO, but I shot a lot more as a civilian - 300 rounds per week/15,000 rounds per year was pretty average and I kept my Dillon press busy feeding my .45 for tactical shoots. That compares with maybe 200-250 rounds per year for an LEO qualifying 4 times per year.

----

It looks scary but carrying a 1911 in Condition 1 (cocked and locked on a loaded chamber) is arguably safer than carrying a Glock or a double action revolver. In the case of the Glock it is very revolver like in that there are are no controlled other than a slide release and all the safety mechanisms are tied to the trigger. That made them a natural choice for departments transitioning from DA revolvers as all the officer had to do was draw and pull the trigger. The downside with both however is that a nervous officer re-holstering the weapon with his or her finger inside the trigger guard will run a significant risk of an AD and shooting themselves in the leg in the process. The same mistake with a 1911 after the safety is applied is just an awkward moment. Google "Glock leg" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

In that regard, a single action semi auto like a 1911, Hi Power, etc may take a bit more training and ample practice to master the safety to the degree needed to operate it properly under stress, but once learned and mastered, the shooter will default to that lowest level of training even under extreme stress and will apply the safety before re-holstering.

In short, you can train someone to shoot a Glock or a DA Revolver in a very short period of time, but that minimal training won't make them any safer in the real world as the entire safety mechanism hinges on perfect trigger finger discipline. I see no downside to spending more time mastering a more "complicated" weapon like a 1911, where trigger finger discipline is just one level of safety in operating the weapon, not the whole ball of wax - and many civilian shooters have done exactly that.

When carrying a 1911, you have 1) trigger discipline, 2) a manual safety, 3) a grip safety and 4) the protection of the trigger provided by the holster that all have to be defeated to have an AD with a 1911 carried in Condition 1.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:25 pm

Model 52B wrote: It looks scary but carrying a 1911 in Condition 1 (cocked and locked on a loaded chamber) is arguably safer than carrying a Glock or a double action revolver. In the case of the Glock it is very revolver like in that there are are no controlled other than a slide release and all the safety mechanisms are tied to the trigger. That made them a natural choice for departments transitioning from DA revolvers as all the officer had to do was draw and pull the trigger. The downside with both however is that a nervous officer re-holstering the weapon with his or her finger inside the trigger guard will run a significant risk of an AD and shooting themselves in the leg in the process. The same mistake with a 1911 after the safety is applied is just an awkward moment. Google "Glock leg" and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Not just a finger in the trigger guard - debris, a fold of a cheap, floppy holster, a bit of clothing, the stupid drawstring and barrel-slide thingy that dangles right next to the holster on the jackets they issue to police officers . . .

On top of that, everyone, especially CCW instructors teach speed re-holstering for some reason (I know the arguments, I just don't agree).

With a striker fired pistol or even some DAO revolvers, you may slam off a round by the time you feel the pressure if you are re-holstering in a hurry. With a grip safety, re-holstering with your thumb on the back of the slide or the hammer where it should be is much safer - one reason I really like the XD pistols. With a DA/SA or DAO auto, of course, you will feel the hammer start to move if the trigger is pushed.

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 7:44 pm

MrMurphy wrote:What 7.62 said. I never advocated carrying a 1911 cocked and UNLOCKED.

So Locked means Safed? Okay, I didn't know that. Thanks for the clarification.

As I said in my post, I know the 1911 has a lot of safety features, and I like it. I still think for personal defense, a revolver is better. I don't think you have much risk of a nervous reholster incident after the need to actually use it. Difference of opinion, I guess.

MIlitary handgun training depends on your MOS, I guess. I was a 19K, so the 9 mm was all we used. Plus, I had my own and practiced once a month. I had holster bolted behind my night stand when I lived in the city. But I got rid of it after I got out.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 8:09 pm

I was USAF Security Forces, we carried the M9 chambered, off safe as intended in a retention holster.

I had to qual on the M4, M203, M240, M249 and M9. If my particular unit had them we'd have qual'd on the Mk19 and M2 .50 as well.

Depending on the situation we had rifle and/or MG with pistol or just the long gun.

Trigger discipline is the key to everything, I'm aware of instances where guys had a finger inside the trigger guard (not on the trigger) and still managed to crank off a round despite a 12+ lb trigger. Revolvers are not immune. The NYPD actually had MORE negligent discharges with revolvers than autos due to the cops trusting the heavy trigger to unscrew their problem, not use trigger finger discipline.

Our instructors only teach speed reholstering in the event you have a weapon drawn and have to go hand to hand (cop specific issue), and it's an exposed retention rig, not a CCW holster.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Sep 06, 2013 9:52 pm

FatJackDurham wrote: MIlitary handgun training depends on your MOS, I guess. I was a 19K, so the 9 mm was all we used. Plus, I had my own and practiced once a month. I had holster bolted behind my night stand when I lived in the city. But I got rid of it after I got out.

Sure, it depends on your MOS, a few special ops troops get really good training and a lot of trigger time on pistols. MPs and SPs get more trigger time than other troops and are seeing a lot better training lately.

Your primary weapon was your tank. In your MOS, resources and money were concentrated on making your tank and crew the best weapon possible. Once you are depending on your pistol, that means that as a tanker, you aren't much immediate use to the army, so they hope everything turns out OK for you so they can use you again.

You did what every other 19K did - stood on a range and shot at targets to qualify. I was issued a rifle or carbine and a pistol most of the time I was in the army. With the pistol, I did what you did - stood on the range and shot at targets. I trained all kinds of ways with a carbine, with sniper rifles, machine guns, M203s, etc. With a pistol, I stood on the range and shot at targets.

Obviously you realized this was not enough, since you shot on your own.

If you are honest, you will have to recognize that your military pistol training, like most of mine, falls far short of preparing you to be proficient in fighting with a pistol.

FatJackDurham · Post by **FatJackDurham** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:50 am

7.62 Precision wrote:
Obviously you realized this was not enough, since you shot on your own.

If you are honest, you will have to recognize that your military pistol training, like most of mine, falls far short of preparing you to be proficient in fighting with a pistol.

Okay! I give! Uncle!

OldWin · Post by **OldWin** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:43 am

The 9mm has benefited greatly from bullet tech in the last twenty years. I carry one for deep cover in hot weather and never would have years ago. I use Hornady critical defense and am reasonably comfortable but not like I am with my LW Commander. I like the 1911/.45auto combination because both have been proven TOGETHER, not separately. If the 1911 wasn't safe to carry cocked and locked we wouldn't be talking about it 100 years later. It's not a fad. That said, if you aren't going to carry it cocked and locked, you are better off with something else.
I carried a .38 snubbie as deep cover for years and it was no small decision to switch to my current 9mm even though on paper it was a no brainer. Being comfortable and confident with something is hard to measure but very important in my opinion. My wife has carried for 13yrs and could carry whatever she wanted but will ONLY carry her S&W 442. She shoots my 1911's very well and has good instincts but won't switch. She has a model 36 on her nightstand while mine has a Glock 21SF with a TLR-1 and 13 Hydrashocks. If she is home alone and hears a bump in the night she takes the 36 and her Surefire. While it wouldn't be my choice, she is comfortable and confident and very skilled with her chosen tool. I think this has a huge impact on performance even if hard to measure.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:04 am

7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote: Why not----------when you can????????
Because when chooseing a carry gun/cartridge combo, the question is not, "What can I do just because I can?" but "What will best fit my needs, and secondly, my preferences?"

The Why not when you can I meant (if you have the availability to and can)why not? Just assumed the other factor of that part(fitting ones needs was a given)?

Guess I maybe should have expressed that better?
Guys only you know what works for you-----so that is that for sure.

Also I probably was only taking into the fact (a gun for someone my size)the Glock 20 fits me (perfectly)and with all the test I have done (shooting stuff)for what I see----The 10mm with the 6" barrel far exceeds anything else that I can find in a gun.(no safety/light/grips/shoots well/and ultra reliable. Remember now you are talking to someone that once thought the Kel-Tec P32 was the perfect CCW gun(for me)Things has changed as I view situations now differently.
Protection factor wise-----(would rather have 11 of 10mm than 15/17/or 19 of the 9mm(just me though)
And bullet proof vests on bad guy-----------------that 10mm(still gets it done)
27ozs fits for carry(for me)and I dare say----------as reliable(or more so)than about anything else.
But those wanted a tiny 9mm or 38 Auto or whatever---------sure their call!

Since the criminal has evolved to many (the pro criminals)now wearing bullet proof vests(least that is what LEO tells me)----------the .45 ACP----for me(don't feel is enough gun)
We have tested them on vests at the club---------I don't want to screw having to use FMJ and such with the .45ACP
The 10mm(6" barrel)easily gets it done with properly expanding bullets(a huge difference to me)
Don't want to HOPE bad guy is not wearing a vest?
And that myth about if you get hit with a 45ACP wearing a vest(you down and out)

These guys on Meth/Bath Salts/etc.---------------------------------especially that latest synthetic one(causes extreme violence)better have something powerful/and can hit with it and be ready to take down the equivalent of an enraged elephant!

One of them dudes dawning a Bullet proof vest-----regular .45ACP---------------------for me(not)!

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:18 am

madman4570 wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote: Why not----------when you can????????
Because when chooseing a carry gun/cartridge combo, the question is not, "What can I do just because I can?" but "What will best fit my needs, and secondly, my preferences?"

The Why not when you can I meant (if you have the availability to and can)why not? Just assumed the other factor of that part(fitting ones needs was a given)?

Guess I maybe should have expressed that better?
Guys only you know what works for you-----so that is that for sure.

Also I probably was only taking into the fact (a gun for someone my size)the Glock 20 fits me (perfectly)and with all the test I have done (shooting stuff)for what I see----The 10mm with the 6" barrel far exceeds anything else that I can find in a gun.(no safety/light/grips/shoots well/and ultra reliable. Remember now you are talking to someone that once thought the Kel-Tec P32 was the perfect CCW gun(for me)Things has changed as I view situations now differently.
Protection factor wise-----(would rather have 11 of 10mm than 15/17/or 19 of the 9mm(just me though)
And bullet proof vests on bad guy-----------------that 10mm(still gets it done)
27ozs fits for carry(for me)and I dare say----------as reliable(or more so)than about anything else.
But those wanted a tiny 9mm or 38 Auto or whatever---------sure their call!

Since the criminal has evolved to many (the pro criminals)now wearing bullet proof vests(least that is what LEO tells me)----------the .45 ACP----for me(don't feel is enough gun)
We have tested them on vests at the club---------I don't want to screw having to use FMJ and such with the .45ACP
The 10mm(6" barrel)easily gets it done with properly expanding bullets(a huge difference to me)
Don't want to HOPE bad guy is not wearing a vest?
And that myth about if you get hit with a 45ACP wearing a vest(you down and out)
These guys on Meth/Bath Salts/etc.---------------------------------especially that latest synthetic one(causes extreme violence)better have something powerful/and can hit with it and be ready to take down the equivalent of an enraged elephant!
One of them dudes dawning a Bullet proof vest-----regular .45ACP---------------------for me(not)!

That's the purpose of a mozambique drill (a double tap to center of chest and a rapidly aimed shot to the head. The idea here is that if you've just tapped the guy twice in the chest with no visible effect, body armor (or maybe drugs) are involved and you'll need a head shot.

I would not bet on a 10mm getting the job done against body armor. The Type IIIA body armor I wear will stop 10mm rounds.

If you practice the mozambique drill at speed with a 10mm, a .45 ACP and a 9mm, you'll probably discover that you're getting substantially faster in that order. In that regard, while I like the .45 ACP, I recognize that over multiple shots, I'm a lot faster with a 9mm, especially with double taps and controlled pairs. That's not earth shaking, rather it just reflects the reality of things and is the basis for "major" and "minor" categories in practical pistol shooting. The reality is that if it takes a head shot, a head shot with a 9mm will be just as effective as a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP or a 10mm, and you'll get it delivered faster.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 10:55 am

The original Mozambique drill, done, shockingly enough, in Mozambique, was with a 9mm Hi-Power when the Hi Power carrier nearly got bayoneted by a guy with an AK I believe. Being a Cooper student the guy double tapped him and he kept coming so he shot him in the neck (he was going for the head) and he went down.

At that range any pistol would have had the same effect.

Charles · Post by **Charles** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:01 am

This discussion and often the resulting arguments has been going on since the mind of man remembereth not. Military experience of Kyle or others in a military situation where use of FMJ ammo is mandated by international law really is not relevant to our civilian defense issues.

I hold the position that if you hit a bad guy between the shirt pockets with a good JHP load with a 9mm, 40 cal or 45 cal, will get the job done. A fellow should choose the handgun that he shoots best, shoot it often and carry it with the best available ammo.

Survival in these situations is more about what is between your ears, than what is in your hands.

piller · Post by **piller** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 11:01 am

Ok, so the biggest thing I am taking away from all of this is that practice is paramount. By the way, I am meeting a friend at Targetmaster Gun Range in Garland in a little more than an hour.

mohavesam · Post by **mohavesam** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:17 pm

piller wrote:Ok, so the biggest thing I am taking away from all of this is that practice is paramount.

I don't lose any sleep over bullets anymore, after seeing a big guy's arm nearly removed when hit with a 38+P SWC. He lost it above the elbow in surgery. That said, no one is lining up to get shot with either AFAIK.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 12:59 pm

piller wrote:Ok, so the biggest thing I am taking away from all of this is that practice is paramount. By the way, I am meeting a friend at Targetmaster Gun Range in Garland in a little more than an hour.

That's pretty much it.

1) You need to be able to quickly draw the weapon, get it into operation and get effective hits.

2) All pistols rounds are under powered so you need to get solid cardio-pulmonary or CNS hits to get rapid incapacitation.

3) If you get those hits, it won't matter much what round you got them with.

As far as the weapon you use, it need to be something that is very reliable, that fits you well, is controllable for you, is something you can get your fingers around and retain, and above all it must be something you can shoot effectively with.

There are lots of great gee whiz pistols out there but I stay with 1911s and Hi Powers as they fit my hand very well and they point very naturally for me. It does not matter how much "better" a newer design may technically be if I cannot shoot it equally well.

You may have to rent or borrow several pistols before you find what works best for you, but when you find it, stick with it and shoot as often as possible. First develop the basics of stance, grip, sight alignment and trigger control, then add in shooting at progressively greater speed, then add drawing from concealment and finally add in movement.

Under extreme pressure you will default to the lowest level of training you've mastered, so the more you train and the more realistically you train the better off you'll be if you ever have to shoot in a genuine defensive situation. If you can find some local practical/tactical pistol matches that will also help as it will give you some experience shooting under time pressure as well as just the general pressure from competing (or the potential for public embarrassment

), and it will get you thinking tactically for a variety of scenarios. Precognition is important as the time to think about how you might address, or better yet avoid, various situations is long before you actually encounter the situation. Very few people actually act calmly and think clearly under extreme pressure (less than 4%), so being able to follow a preconceived plan will be more effective for most people than trying to make it up as you go along.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:06 pm

Deer hit with a 243 DRN. Deer hit with a .300mag.runs a mile before it drops. bad guy hit with a .22 DRN. bad guy takes a mag of .45 and stabs cop before He dies. No absolutes in this world

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:36 pm

tman wrote:Deer hit with a 243 DRN. Deer hit with a .300mag.runs a mile before it drops. bad guy hit with a .22 DRN. bad guy takes a mag of .45 and stabs cop before He dies. No absolutes in this world

Bullet placement is EVERYTHING.

Speed, power, and above all ACCURACY count.

It's an absolute.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 2:52 pm

piller wrote:Ok, so the biggest thing I am taking away from all of this is that practice is paramount. By the way, I am meeting a friend at Targetmaster Gun Range in Garland in a little more than an hour.

In a word, yes.

But, even better IMO, is participation in one of the gun games appropriate to the types of guns you carry or might find youself with if a situation arises. Even tho' my primary game is cowboy action, trigger time and target acquisition crosses genres and gun types. I do sometimes carry a single action, and usually have a lever action with me. My single complaint about the relativelly new "Wild Bunch" game with 1911s is the stupid decision to limit pistols to 5 rounds in the mag. My goal is to change that; but to do so, I need to participate. I ain't a lone voice calling for this change, there are many who agree. I even understand the underlying logic to their reasoning... pure laziness. It's easier to use the same 3 & 5 target arrays they have setup for CAS than to set out another target or two and think about "new" seqences for 7 shots. Since, as even with CAS, I'm not competing to win, for me it's about keeping my skills at a level that should increase my chances for survival. And while I laugh & joke a lot, it's really an attempt to distract myself from focusing too hard, developing a "tunnel-vision" approach to that target, sorta maintaining a "situational" awareness. But, don't tell anyone, let it be our secret.

If you apply some creativity, these "games" can be effective practice, teaching and improving your eye to hand coordination, target acquisition, weapons familiarization, and in the case of several games, mag changes, etc. At many venues and some games, they use movement, cover etc. That varies greatlly... but at any of them, it ain't hard to pick out the better shooters to watch & learn.

At most (read almost all, cause I've encountered very few that won't), asking the match director for help will get you some basic instruction and in some cases very excellent instruction. If you present yourself right, I've yet to encounter "experts" thaat aren't willing to show off what they know. No, you won't get quite the training you'd get @ places like Gunsite, but, you'd end up adapting what you'd learn there anyway. I know I have taken all the "specialized" training I've recv'd from the military and LE and modified it to fit me. Except that explosives stuff, that I'd still do by "the book"!

Lotta words to qualify that "yes", huh?

Model 52B wrote:
tman wrote:Deer hit with a 243 DRN. Deer hit with a .300mag.runs a mile before it drops. bad guy hit with a .22 DRN. bad guy takes a mag of .45 and stabs cop before He dies. No absolutes in this world
Bullet placement is EVERYTHING.
Speed, power, and above all ACCURACY count.

It's an absolute.

Yea, verily.

tman · Post by **tman** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 4:28 pm

Even WITH bullet placement, speed, supposed knockdown power, FBI one shot stops,penetration in ballistic gelatin,tests on goats, forensic reports,premium bullets, bullet diameter, bullet B.C., muzzle energy, muzzzle velocity, and any other voodo thrown in, there are no absolutes.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 6:46 pm

piller wrote:Ok, so the biggest thing I am taking away from all of this is that practice is paramount.

Absolutely. This above all else.

The great American lie says that what I have makes me the man. If I have the fastest, most powerful, biggest, the right logo, whatever, that is all I need.
The truth is that skill trumps all else. Since ammo costs money and skill costs ammo, cost of ammunition is a big factor to consider.

I know a lot of guys who carry beat up old Glock 9mms that I would not want to go up against with any caliber short of .308 from the next hillside.

I carry a 9mm. You can call it puny, you can say I'm not a man, whatever. I don't care; it's been said to me before. I know what a 9mm can do, and I know what I can do with it, and I am comfortable with that decision.

I carry a 9mm because:
I can carry more ammo. Experience has shown that more ammo is a bigger advantage than a few thousandths of in inch of diameter.
I can afford to shoot more ammo. Skill is a bigger factor than ammo. (I'm talking about fighting skill, which is different than shooting skill. I can be a skilled shooter and still totally unprepared to use my shooting skill in a fight.)
I can shoot faster accurately. Your rate of fire should be based on your skill level and range to the target. You want to shoot as fast as you are able to keep the majority of hits in the kill zone. If you are shooting nice, tight groups, you are shooting too slow. If you are shooting outside the kill zone, you are shooting too fast. I can supply percentages and training techniques to explain this further to anyone interested.
With a 9mm, I can shoot a lot faster than with a hot 10mm, for instance. That means 4 rounds of 9mm in the target in the same time it would take to put 2 rounds of a hot 10mm in the target.
It tends to penetrate barriers better than .45 ACP.
I don't worry about body armor. I don't care if it's a .380, a 357 SIG, or a hot-loaded 10mm. I won't trust any normal-sized pistol to perform against body armor. If I suspect body armor, it's pelvis or head shots.

I didn't always carry 9mm. I just got more practical about it. Carry what makes you happy, but make sure skill is your focus.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:00 pm

7.62 Precision wrote: I don't worry about body armor. I don't care if it's a .380, a 357 SIG, or a hot-loaded 10mm. I won't trust any normal-sized pistol to perform against body armor. If I suspect body armor, it's pelvis or head shots.

It's a bit of an aside, but this is something to think about for folks who wear body armor.

Body armor varies in cut with some being intended for concealment with others being optimized for more coverage, but less conceal-ability. The thing to consider is if the bad guys knows you are wearing body armor, and the attack is premeditated and planned, he'll aim and shoot to avoid the armor. Consequently, while it offers less coverage around the shoulders there is some value in concealable armor if it keeps the shooter shooting center of mass.

So it really depends on the job. Uniformed officers are probably more likely to be assumed to have body armor while plain clothed officers usually are more likely to be presumed to not to be wearing armor - if it's not obvious.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:04 pm

tman wrote:Even WITH bullet placement, speed, supposed knockdown power, FBI one shot stops,penetration in ballistic gelatin,tests on goats, forensic reports,premium bullets, bullet diameter, bullet B.C., muzzle energy, muzzzle velocity, and any other voodo thrown in, there are no absolutes.

Which is why we train to shoot fast and often until the threat is eliminated.

So an ISA guy is detailed to provide security at a foreign El Al terminal. He was a little, guy who was well know for being the best pistol shooter in the organization. He and one other guy are stationed just outside of security where the lines form. The terminal is full of pillars that prevent a clear view through the terminal. At that time they used Browning HP pistols.
Two huge Nigerian terrorists walk into the terminal with gym bags full of grenades, AKs, and mags. They get to the crowd of people and start to throw grenades and shoot.
This guy, the expert pistol shot, runs to a position where he can see one of the guys. He empties his magazine with no effect. He reloads and empties the second. The Nigerian guy is still shooting, so he runs up and beats the guy to death with his empty pistol. The other guy took out the other Nigerian.
In the debriefing room, the poor guy is distraught. He apologizes to his superiors, disappointed that despite all his skill, he choked in the moment of truth and couldn't hit the threat.
The local law enforcement come in and ask who killed the guy he shot at. He tells them he did. They are very impressed. The guy had 26 holes in him, each one a kill shot.

One guy may back down just from the threat of force. Another may have to be beat to death with an empty pistol after being killed 26 times.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 7:59 pm

Model 52B wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
7.62 Precision wrote:
madman4570 wrote: Why not----------when you can????????
Because when chooseing a carry gun/cartridge combo, the question is not, "What can I do just because I can?" but "What will best fit my needs, and secondly, my preferences?"

The Why not when you can I meant (if you have the availability to and can)why not? Just assumed the other factor of that part(fitting ones needs was a given)?

Guess I maybe should have expressed that better?
Guys only you know what works for you-----so that is that for sure.

Also I probably was only taking into the fact (a gun for someone my size)the Glock 20 fits me (perfectly)and with all the test I have done (shooting stuff)for what I see----The 10mm with the 6" barrel far exceeds anything else that I can find in a gun.(no safety/light/grips/shoots well/and ultra reliable. Remember now you are talking to someone that once thought the Kel-Tec P32 was the perfect CCW gun(for me)Things has changed as I view situations now differently.
Protection factor wise-----(would rather have 11 of 10mm than 15/17/or 19 of the 9mm(just me though)
And bullet proof vests on bad guy-----------------that 10mm(still gets it done)
27ozs fits for carry(for me)and I dare say----------as reliable(or more so)than about anything else.
But those wanted a tiny 9mm or 38 Auto or whatever---------sure their call!

Since the criminal has evolved to many (the pro criminals)now wearing bullet proof vests(least that is what LEO tells me)----------the .45 ACP----for me(don't feel is enough gun)
We have tested them on vests at the club---------I don't want to screw having to use FMJ and such with the .45ACP
The 10mm(6" barrel)easily gets it done with properly expanding bullets(a huge difference to me)
Don't want to HOPE bad guy is not wearing a vest?
And that myth about if you get hit with a 45ACP wearing a vest(you down and out)
These guys on Meth/Bath Salts/etc.---------------------------------especially that latest synthetic one(causes extreme violence)better have something powerful/and can hit with it and be ready to take down the equivalent of an enraged elephant!
One of them dudes dawning a Bullet proof vest-----regular .45ACP---------------------for me(not)!
That's the purpose of a mozambique drill (a double tap to center of chest and a rapidly aimed shot to the head. The idea here is that if you've just tapped the guy twice in the chest with no visible effect, body armor (or maybe drugs) are involved and you'll need a head shot.

I would not bet on a 10mm getting the job done against body armor. The Type IIIA body armor I wear will stop 10mm rounds.

If you practice the mozambique drill at speed with a 10mm, a .45 ACP and a 9mm, you'll probably discover that you're getting substantially faster in that order. In that regard, while I like the .45 ACP, I recognize that over multiple shots, I'm a lot faster with a 9mm, especially with double taps and controlled pairs. That's not earth shaking, rather it just reflects the reality of things and is the basis for "major" and "minor" categories in practical pistol shooting. The reality is that if it takes a head shot, a head shot with a 9mm will be just as effective as a .40 S&W, a .45 ACP or a 10mm, and you'll get it delivered faster.

Which brand Level III Kevlar vest are you wearing ???
We have penetrated level III with the Glock 20 (6.6 LW barrel)shooting the Underwood 155gr Bonded ammo @ 1630 fps with vest being attached to 3/4" plywood sheathing. ???

The double/triple shooting stuff to try and stop them-------not for me(a person moving fast at you and probably with bad lighting/items in way/etc.------------------you are lucky to get (1)proper hit. (Most LEO guys I talk to )tell me to aim upper center mass at the breast plate.(actually the area if you draw a line from where your underarms are to center of chest.
The higher velocity stuff (like the 10mm)wrecks havoc sending bullet/bone fragments threw out the upper chest region causing bad guy to be stopped (paralyzed/spinal cord diffused at the upper back/neck region. Along with mass tissue damage and quick bleed out.

ps----------------and it penetrated the 3/4" plywood too!

I will say though----------------In the home---my preferred weapon of choice is a 12ga 3" (15 pellet 00 Buck)aimed at center neck area.
Also that area encompassing just below the belt to the bottom of crotch!

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 8:45 pm

madman4570 wrote: We have penetrated level III with the Glock 20 (6.6 LW barrel)shooting the Underwood 155gr Bonded ammo @ 1630 fps with vest being attached to 3/4" plywood sheathing. ???

The double/triple shooting stuff to try and stop them-------not for me(a person moving fast at you and probably with bad lighting/items in way/etc.------------------you are lucky to get (1)proper hit. (Most LEO guys I talk to )tell me to aim upper center mass at the breast plate.(actually the area if you draw a line from where your underarms are to center of chest.
The higher velocity stuff (like the 10mm)wrecks havoc sending bullet/bone fragments threw out the upper chest region causing bad guy to be stopped (paralyzed/spinal cord diffused at the upper back/neck region. Along with mass tissue damage and quick bleed out.

Again, you are placing all your faith in technology and physics to guarantee a one-shot kill on something that is organic, moving, and is affected by many variables.

Your 10mm might kill with one shot, or you might empty it and still get killed.
This is the second thread in which I have seen you giving the advice that if you use X weapon with X ammunition, you can be sure to kill with one shot. That is very poor advice, and it is a very dangerous mindset.

Double or triple shooting? Shoot him 10 times if that's what it takes. If he is on his feet, you are shooting. If he is on the ground and still moving, shoot again. You might kill him with the first shot, but if he doesn't know it yet, he is still dangerous. Your second, third, fourth shots may kill him quickly.
There is a differance between killing and killing quickly. Killing quickly may take multiple shots with any caliber, no matter how impressed you are with it on the range or no matter what some cops you talked to told you (a coroner might be a better one to talk to about that). How many people have your cop friends killed (and autopsied) with the custom 10mm ammo you like out of 6.6" barreled Glock 20s?

This idea that you can depend on your weapon to kill with one shot is dangerous. We have seen that strictly training the Mozambique drill and believing that it guarantees a kill with three shots is dangerous. LE officers have been killed by doing what they do in training - two to the chest, one to the head, switch targets. Only in real life, that first target is still a threat.

If I was shooting a violent threat with a .22 short or a .50 BMG, I'm shooting until I end the threat - I'm not going to allow myself a false sense of security.

The 10mm, with any cartridge, is not a death ray, any more than a .45 ACP is a death ray. It is a pistol subject to the same limitations other pistols have. It has downsides for self defense use that other calibers don't, especially in the exotic super-hot loadings, including heavy recoil, larger grip frame (in the G20, especially) and the question of how safe the hot loads are in a Glock pistol. When I read up on some of your favorite loads, I hear of some people with bulged cases and an occasional blown-out primer in the Glocks. I have shot hot loads in 10mm Glocks that scared me. I would sure want an aftermarket barrel to shoot some of those.

As far as body armor, you shot a vest laid against a piece of plywood. That is totally different than a vest on a person. What I would like to know is haw far your 10mm bullets go into a human body after penetrating a vest? How deep do they penetrate in a human body after passing through a forearm, through the vest, and into the body. Can they even penetrate the vest if they hit an arm on the way?

Even if the threat has no vest, will your magic 10mm blow bone and bullet fragments all through the chest cavity, or will it make it through without hitting anything vital? Both are likely possibilities.

Again, I advise you to take advantage of some good realistic training and carry whatever pistol you like - your G20 is a great choice - but be sure it is your skill and knowledge that you are trusting to save your life, and not the properties of a particular cartridge. And please don't count on one shot kills.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Sep 07, 2013 9:11 pm

madman4570 wrote: Which brand Level III Kevlar vest are you wearing ???
We have penetrated level III with the Glock 20 (6.6 LW barrel)shooting the Underwood 155gr Bonded ammo @ 1630 fps with vest being attached to 3/4" plywood sheathing. ???

The double/triple shooting stuff to try and stop them-------not for me(a person moving fast at you and probably with bad lighting/items in way/etc.------------------you are lucky to get (1)proper hit. (Most LEO guys I talk to )tell me to aim upper center mass at the breast plate.(actually the area if you draw a line from where your underarms are to center of chest.
The higher velocity stuff (like the 10mm)wrecks havoc sending bullet/bone fragments threw out the upper chest region causing bad guy to be stopped (paralyzed/spinal cord diffused at the upper back/neck region. Along with mass tissue damage and quick bleed out.

It's a level IIIA, but Spectra, not Kevlar. It's rated for 200gr and 170 gr 10mm rounds, but it's not specifically tested/rated with 155 gr rounds at 1630 fps as for the most part the NIJ uses a 1400 fps max velocity. In that regard. Level IIIA won't stop a 7.62x25 Tokarev either. Speed is hell on body armor. So are ice picks, believe it or not.

The area you are describing is where a trauma plate normally goes to prevent exactly what you are describing. They may be steel or composite, but their function is to spread the impact over a wider area over the sternum.

Moving targets almost invariably draw center of mass shots, especially when the deflection angles are large. That's why bad guys aim center of mass even when the SWAT folks are wearing vests on the outside. But in a self defense situation the attacker will most often be charging directly at you if he or she is moving at all, so the deflection angles will be very small with the target just getting relatively larger as he or she closes.

LEOs will shoot at targets moving away or at sharp angles, but for a civilian self defense shoot that target movement will make it hard to justify a shoot as it gets hard to prove the guy you just shot was posing a credible threat of death or serious bodily injury, if he was arguably just trying to leave the area.

The need for rapid shots at close ranges is the major reason why the FBI has changed it's qualification course of fire. In the past it was heavily weighted with longer range shooting including the prone position, and now, while there is still 15 and 25 yard stages, they only account for 1/3 of the rounds fired, and it has a heavy emphasis on rapid shooting at 3, 5 and 7yards with all stages starting with drawing from concealment. It's a big shift:

Target: QIT-99 silhouette
Ammunition: 60 rounds
Scoring: 1 point per hit
Qualification: 48/60 (80%) for agents; 54/60 (90%) for instructors

All fired from concealed carry (you will draw from your concealed holster).

Stage 1 is the only stage involving one-handed shooting. All other stages are shot two-handed.

STAGE I

Starting Point: 3 yards
Total Rounds: 12

3 rounds, 3 seconds, SHO
3 rounds, 3 seconds, SHO
3 rounds SHO, switch hands, 3 rounds WHO, 8 seconds
STAGE II

Starting Point: 5 yards
Total Rounds: 12

3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
3 rounds, 3 seconds
STAGE III

Starting Point: 7 yards
Total Rounds: 16

4 rounds, 4 seconds
4 rounds, 4 seconds
Start with only 4 rounds in the gun (1 in the chamber, 3 in the magazine). 4 rounds; empty gun (emergency) reload; 4 more rounds; 8 seconds
STAGE IV

Starting Point: 15 yards
Total Rounds: 10

3 rounds, 6 seconds
3 rounds, 6 seconds
4 rounds, 8 seconds
STAGE V

Starting Point: 25 yards
Total Rounds: 10

Move to cover; 3 rounds standing; kneel, 2 rounds; 15 seconds
Repeated again in 15 seconds.

----

As a matter of form, Levels I, IIA, II and IIIA are soft body armor in level of increasing protection, while Level III is the first level that requires a hard plate (not just a trauma plate) that is proof against 7.62x51mm FMJ rounds with the remainder being equal to Level IIIA protection. Level IV has to be proof against .30-06 AP rounds.