Would you use a Rossi 92 with Buffalo Bore +P+ .44?

BuckRimfire · Post by **BuckRimfire** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 3:54 pm

BB has a .44 mag load that they call a +P+. They don't list the Rossi as supporting it's use. Is the .44 mag Rossi not as strong as the .454 Casull version?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:14 pm

AFAIK no gun mfg, for Lawyer reasons, will ever acknowledge that their gun will handle "special loading" ammunition, even if it is OEM.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:31 pm

I 'probably' would, but generally I follow the philosophy of using more gun instead of more gunpowder, so if I didn't think a regular 44 Mag load would work, I'd try a 'regular load' of 444 Marlin, and if that weren't enough, the 375 Ruger (and if that isn't enough, "Run....!!!!!")

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:31 pm

I know the +p+ you are talking about----------------------------(No)

However-----Let me give you a good feeling. Review the results of the Linebaugh Penetration Tests below.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh ... .tests.asp

You DO NOT need the +P+ in that Levergun.
I can ensure you a .44 Mag with just mildly stout loadings or for that fact(normal loadings)in that Rifle will do about anything you ever need doing.

42" in the Paper and Bone Box (compare to many of the Big rifles even)pretty impressive. To get 1320 fps in that rifle you would probably be in just the normal loading compared to a handgun using that +p+ stoked to the gills.

If you are bent on (More Power)get yourself a Marlin and while you are at it then(make it a 45-70)

That 44Mag with bullets over 300gr--------honestly(perfect)even if going only moderately along its way!

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:28 pm

madman4570 wrote:If you are bent on (More Power) get yourself a Marlin and while you are at it then (make it a 45-70)

I thought most folks thought the Win/Rossi 92 design was inherently stronger than the Marlin 1894 one... or did you just mean the real point was to step up to 45-70...?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 6:29 pm

AJMD429 wrote:
madman4570 wrote:If you are bent on (More Power) get yourself a Marlin and while you are at it then (make it a 45-70)
I thought most folks thought the Win/Rossi 92 design was inherently stronger than the Marlin 1894 one... or did you just mean the real point was to step up to 45-70...?

Meh. Get both. I did.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:27 pm

The .44 Mag Rossi 92 is just as strong as the .454 Casull Rossi 92, and the .454 has a SAAMI pressure spec of 56,000 psi.

I would not worry about using the BB load in a Rossi 92.

Now...on the other hand I've never bothered with the .44 Mag either. The .45 Colt will deliver .44 Mag performance at less pressure and with better bullet selection. And if you want more performance in a Model 92, get the .454 Casull - it will give you .45-70 level performance in bullet weights up to about 300 grains.

You only need to move to a .45-70 when you want to use 400-500 gr bullets and/or want a heavier rifle or carbine that won't beat the snot out of you with heavy loads.

Pete44ru · Post by **Pete44ru** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 7:58 pm

.

FWIW, I used CorBon +P in my .45 Colt Rossi M92, w/o any issues or ill-effects.

.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:01 pm

SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 10:27 pm

Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

That's what I've both heard and read. Someone on this forum posted comments from a 'factory insider' on the whole "+P" and "+P+" thing, and made it seem like mostly 'advertising hype' anyway.

Model 52B wrote:And if you want more performance in a Model 92, get the .454 Casull - it will give you .45-70 level performance in bullet weights up to about 300 grains.

Or a Bighorn Armory 500 S&W...

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:14 pm

Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

I don't think that's technically true, or even possible in some of their calibers/loadings. If any one has documentation on the pressure of their loads, I'd love to see it.

They list .44 +P loads, however I am unaware of any SAAMI +P spec for the .44 Mag - although I have seen 43,500psi referenced as a "+P" pressure for the 44 magnum. But it's hard to tell in the absence of a SAAMI .44 Mag +P spec what ".44 Mag +P" means.

Their .45 Colt loadings are also marketed as "standard pressure" and "+P". And their "+P" loads obviously go well over the 14,000 psi SAAMI standard. SAAMI has no +P standard for the .45 Colt, so what the "+P" means when Buffalo Bore uses it is anyone's guess, but their bullet weights and velocities suggest some very stout loads in the 32K range.

On the hand loading side, the definition of "T/C" and "Ruger Only" loads for the .45 Colt seem to vary as well with some people saying it's 25,000 psi while others say 32,000 psi. 32,000 psi seems to work in Blackhawks and Model 92s and it's generally accepted that the .45 Colt achieves .44 Mag performance at that level.

---

No one actually has specs for "+P+" and it's mostly a marketing term.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Thu Oct 10, 2013 11:46 pm

It's kinda like the admen got carried away... just as they do with "Cowboy" loadings... Both companies that advertise "cowboy" .38Spl loads have them spec'd at higher velocities than your regular run of the mill, 100 year old .38Spl's...

And while the Rossi '92 is chambered in higher pressure rounds than the .44Mag, they are also assembled with differently designed parts, namely the mag tube and magazine retention devices... Recoil in those behemoth loads pulled stock mag tubes from the frame...

BuckRimfire · Post by **BuckRimfire** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 12:44 am

Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

Quite a few of their loads are labeled +P. In my humble experience, that means that the load exceeds SAAMI max by 10%.

The round in question is labeled +P+. As I understand it, that does not have any widely excepted definition, only that it is over the usual +P range. In this case, and unlike any of the other BB products I can remember, they DO NOT say it is OK for any standard gun in good condition. Read the first few sentences of the product description:

"This new load is designed ONLY for certain firearms. They are as follows; Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull, Colt Anaconda and Dan Wesson Revolvers. Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, "modified" Marlin 1894 (see next paragraph), Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle. We get hundreds of emails asking if this load can be fired in S&W revolvers or some firearm other than what is in the above list. The answer is NO. The above list is all inclusive."

https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... etail&p=54

This is a kinda academic question. I don't have a 92 yet, but it looks like I'll be picking up a .357 24" with low mileage tomorrow, and I may also buy a .44 20" carbine to compare and contrast. I don't really plan to do much with them other than recreational shooting, so I don't need the extra power. I'm more interested in why some lever guns are on BB's list, but not the Rossi 92. I already have Ruger revolvers in those calibers, and while I don't intend to exceed published max loads (although I'm tempted to go back to some of the published data from a few decades ago, when men were men and steel was scared

just to try a few rounds) , when handloading it's nice to know that the Redhawk and GP100 have a reputation for an extra margin for error, if my scale drifts a little and I don't catch it. Basically, I wonder if I accidentally go a couple tenths over max, am I going to catch a Rossi bolt in the face?!

Rusty · Post by **Rusty** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:27 am

When in doubt, ask the mfg. I'm sure they will be ready to answer your questi
on if you just ask.

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:16 am

I guesstimate the 1892 is not included because the old guns were of lesser steels. The 1892 action is stronger than the Win and Marlin 94s

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:12 am

AJMD429 wrote:
madman4570 wrote:If you are bent on (More Power) get yourself a Marlin and while you are at it then (make it a 45-70)
I thought most folks thought the Win/Rossi 92 design was inherently stronger than the Marlin 1894 one... or did you just mean the real point was to step up to 45-70...?

Here is my thinking on this---
You have to be very careful with the Buffalo Bore "+p+ stuff. Example the BB ammo I have(is 340gr @ 1478fps out of a 7" barrel)
I might be wrong here but that round coming out of that sized casing (has to be close to 50,000 psi) I mean that is very close to .454 specs????????

Now, is everybody 100% sure that the regular 44mag Rossi is exactly built strength wise to their .454Mag model.(if I was BuckRimfire I would want that answered by Rossi's leading Tech Guy at Rossi's Factory)He does not say he plans on shooting it,but wants to know 1)IF HE DID would the gun handle it
2)Would it take a steady diet of it) and so on.

I know this will get me in hot water here. I just cannot get my head wrapped around the fact (a Rossi whatever)is a top notch quality gun)----ya,ya,ya I know! The Marlin is proven(it is rated to shoot 405gr bullets @ 2000fps)??? What is the pressure limits of that round compared to that BB 44 mag rd ???

But, I do know it a huge bullet going God awful fast and Marlin sucks it up like candy!
I know what is supposed to be but thinking the Rossi is stronger than the Marlin(myself, not)

My friend had (had is the word)and he had it exactly (1 week)he was shooting some of my loads my Raging Bull gobbled up like candy.Put exactly 3rds through it and it broke

The 45-70 thing-------its like the days back in 1973 when all my buddies were trying to think they got something hoping up their Honda 750's and Harley's------when I just went out and bought a Kawasaki 900 Z1 and was done with it.

Trying to stretch something beyond a certain limit when there are other better options-----?????????????

JMHO----Buck check with Rossi Corp(head gun tech)and get 1st hand(what's what)

If they won't tell you-----------dump them and the gun!

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 7:53 am

Mr. Buffalo Bore posts to this Site.....good guy. ...call him up and ask. ....he will tell you thetruth..
IME, there isn't anything that won't go DRT with A 300 gr .430 @ 11-1200fps....

Tycer · Post by **Tycer** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 8:50 am

Paco's article on the 45 Colt in levers: http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/ ... vergun.htm

piller · Post by **piller** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:10 am

Are you really sure that you need a .44 Mag in a +P+ out of a carbine? I am not sure that you are gaining anything that will be needed on anything in North America. The typical FMJ in it out of a factory load such as Winchester will put a deep hole in anything you might shoot at.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 11:35 am

I normally 'down load' from most published loads, sometimes 20% below the top pressure loads, and I have yet to find any of the hot loads that get close to the useful and reliable penetration my loads produce.

The one and only benefit of high velocity loads in medium and big bore arms is to produce lower velocity results at extended ranges.

The flip side is that many common hunting projectiles designed to work at high velocities are unreliable at close contact distances, often disintigrating and NOT penetrating deeply.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:23 pm

When you load ammo to those high of pressures, one needs to be VERY aware of the differences in gun construction. First of all you're comparing a pistol caliber gun to a gun built for rifle rounds. The most often failed area in the Marlin 336 action when chambered in 45-70 is the web between the barrel & magazine. That's due to the amount of metal taken from the barrel from the much larger .45-70. Compare the chamber diameter of the .45-70 to a .38-55 and you'll see what I mean.

When folks talk about the relative strength of Winchester vs Marlin, they're usually comparing the 1892 to the 1894, or the 94 to the 336. Comparisons of the 1895 usually are to the 1886. There've been measurements given at various times for each of those guns of that web... and if memory serves, Winchester comes out with more metal there.

Frankly, I wouldn't trust a .45-70 loaded to push a 405gr bullet to 2000fps to not fataly destroy a 336 sized action. It might not let go on the first round, or thru the first 500... but I seriously doubt a 336 is capable of withstanding a steady diet of those. Especially some backyard reloader who's guessing at what pressures he's working with. Let me put it this way, I don't trust the 336 sized 45-70 to handle a steady diet of loads listed for 1886, and I have no problem uusing Ruger #1 loads for my Browning 1886; well least moderate Ruger level loads, my bursitis doesn't any that hot actually!

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 3:45 pm

Grizz------you should try my LIGHT H&R synthetic 22" barreled open sighted Handi with those BB 405gr 2000fps loads.

Wow------that baby kicks(feels about like my .416 Weatherby Mark V felt )

I am a big guy-----but, that sucker kicks. About twice as bad as our little 5lb H&R Ultra Light Slug Hunter(open sights) tossing 438gr slugs @ aprox 1500fps

So far I have only put about 75rd of that stuff through the Marlin--------she is as new! (not cheap shooting them though)

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:25 pm

I wish I had a 22" barrel like yours because I think my heavy load is slowing down in the long one.

My H&R has a 32 inch barrel and I send 525gr cast lead thru it at 1500+ fps. Barely feel it.

I filled the stock up with buckshot. Sounds funny but slows it down some. I think Blaine shot it maybe.

It's a low pressure load that I got from Marshall and it's well below his pressure tested maximum.

It's a great fit for my Marlin guide gun. And it's easy shooting. My daughter shoots it accurately and doesn't think it has much recoil. It recoils less than my 425gr load, and penetrates better.

I totally agree with Griff that max loads in Marlins are not smart. I have an 1886 but, because I like what the 525s do I use the same ammo in it...

fun stuff

Grizz

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:47 pm

For the money, those H&R Handies are tough guns. Same with their shotguns.
The Company also is very good with the customers. example---I wanted the Ultra Light full rifled Slug gun (with adjustable sights)not the scope base.But I wanted the gun marked H&R Ultra light Slug Hunter not New England Firearms(which to get the adjustable sights usually you have to get the New England full rifled Pardner Model. They did it (mine came as a H&R Ultra Light Hunter/w adj sights)-------they will do special things for customers!

Is it any better marked that way ???? Na(just makes me think its better)

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Fri Oct 11, 2013 6:32 pm

I agree there is not much of a need for the 1,800-1,900 fps velocities you could potentially milk out of a .44 mag or .45 Colt carbine with really hot loads.

My favorite .45 Colt hunting load produces 1,500 fps in a 20" carbine and with iron sights at 100 yards it will hold the 9 ring for 10 rounds on a standard TQ4 100 yard small bore target. It's easily minute of deer to 150 yards.

It develops about 1,275 ft pounds at the muzzle with a point blank range of 160 yards with a 135 yard zero and, at 150 yards, it still has about 1,065 fps and 625 ft pounds left, making it at least equal to, and in most respects superior to, the .30-30 over that same 0-150 yard range.

More importantly, it's the upper edge of the muzzle velocity the bullet was designed for and I would not really gain anything by pushing it harder in a weapon intended for short range use.

----

To put that in a .44 mag context, you'll gain about 200 fps in a 16" barrel over a 7 1/2" pistol, so a 250 to 300 gr bullet that generates 1300 fps in a pistol will achieve about the same 1,500 fps in a 16" carbine. Buffalo Bore's standard .44 Mag loads will do that, so I don't really see much advantage in the +P and +P+ loadings for a 50 to 100 yard carbine. If I knew most of my shots would be on the 100-150 end of the envelope I might go faster, but then again accuracy matters even more at longer range so I'd still go with the standard loads if they shot more accurately.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 1:38 am

Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.

Merle · Post by **Merle** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 2:03 pm

BuckRimfire wrote:BB has a .44 mag load that they call a +P+. They don't list the Rossi as supporting it's use. Is the .44 mag Rossi not as strong as the .454 Casull version?

My opinion is if it is not listed in BB's website - don't do it.
You could always send them an E-mail & ask; perhaps they just haven't tested that model.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 3:23 pm

Merle wrote:
BuckRimfire wrote:BB has a .44 mag load that they call a +P+. They don't list the Rossi as supporting it's use. Is the .44 mag Rossi not as strong as the .454 Casull version?

My opinion is if it is not listed in BB's website - don't do it.
You could always send them an E-mail & ask; perhaps they just haven't tested that model.

It states in the buffalo bore discription of this ammo that it's safe in a marlin 1894 (preferrably re-barrel to a faster twist).
The 92 is about 30 percent stronger than the marlin so it is a non issue.

rogn · Post by **rogn** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:28 pm

I could never see the cost of factory45 Colt ammo, so Ive been handloading for my son's and my 92 Pumas. Hodgdon lists a load o H110 that ranges from 21 to about 24 grains(don't go lower) with a 300gr JHP. THis load chronos 1700fps out of 2 20" carbines. A I remember from my data cruising this load is around 30000psi. Weve burned up several boxes of the Hornady TXPs with no ill effects.My son's experience is that deer are dead before they hit the ground.. The 44 mag w standard loads in the carbine should have all the horse power needed for any deer, hog or black bear at reasonable range. If you do the Taylor KO values , both surpass the 30WCF.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sat Oct 12, 2013 9:50 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.

I really want to see the pressure test data on that before I'll believe that.

Simply put, if they were not exceeding SAAMI specs, then there would be no issue using the loads in any pistol or rifle in good condition that is chambered for .44 Mag - but that's not what they are saying, and they are listing them as +P and +P+ loads (with SAAMI not having any +P+ specs).

More to the point, what you are saying is definitely not true for .45 Colt. They are not generating the kind of velocities they are advertising with .45 Colt within a SAAMI spec of 14,000 psi, and I doubt you're saying that BB's hot loaded .45 Colt ammo would be fine in an 1873 Winchester reproduction.

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:21 am

Model 52B wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.
I really want to see the pressure test data on that before I'll believe that.

Simply put, if they were not exceeding SAAMI specs, then there would be no issue using the loads in any pistol or rifle in good condition that is chambered for .44 Mag - but that's not what they are saying, and they are listing them as +P and +P+ loads (with SAAMI not having any +P+ specs).

More to the point, what you are saying is definitely not true for .45 Colt. They are not generating the kind of velocities they are advertising with .45 Colt within a SAAMI spec of 14,000 psi, and I doubt you're saying that BB's hot loaded .45 Colt ammo would be fine in an 1873 Winchester reproduction.

I don't have time to do the research for you. If you want to learn more about duplex and triplex loading you do the research. It's out there.
Saami spec for 45lc and 44mag are apples and oranges. The 45lc being a really old black powder era cartridge SAAMI will alway be on the low side.

Post by **Hobie** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:32 am

I'd do what Tim says. That said, I used the old Remington 240 gr. SJHP on hogs in CA with zero problems. I don't see a need to make a .44 Mag rifle a .444 Marlin, buy a .444 Marlin if you need one.

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:11 am

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Model 52B wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.
I really want to see the pressure test data on that before I'll believe that.

Simply put, if they were not exceeding SAAMI specs, then there would be no issue using the loads in any pistol or rifle in good condition that is chambered for .44 Mag - but that's not what they are saying, and they are listing them as +P and +P+ loads (with SAAMI not having any +P+ specs).

More to the point, what you are saying is definitely not true for .45 Colt. They are not generating the kind of velocities they are advertising with .45 Colt within a SAAMI spec of 14,000 psi, and I doubt you're saying that BB's hot loaded .45 Colt ammo would be fine in an 1873 Winchester reproduction.

I don't have time to do the research for you. If you want to learn more about duplex and triplex loading you do the research. It's out there.
Saami spec for 45lc and 44mag are apples and oranges. The 45lc being a really old black powder era cartridge SAAMI will alway be on the low side.

Steve,

I'm not disagreeing with you that the .45 Colt SAAMI specs are low - 14,000 psi versus 25,000-32,000 psi for "Ruger only" and "T/C" loads, depending on the source - that's widely known. I'm disagreeing with your statement that no BB loads exceed SAAMI spec. By stating that you implied that included all BB loads, including .45 Colt. I just want to be clear that's not the case and that shooting their stout .45 Colt loads in an 1873 would be really bad juju.

I'm also not interested in further researching duplex and triplex loads and then trying to extrapolate that to whatever proprietary loading process BB may be using with liberal amounts of guess work and unfounded assumptions. I'm interested in the actual pressure data on BB loads - regardless of their composition. The point here is that if the loads were under the regular .44 Mag SAAMI spec, they would be usable in any weapon safe for SAAMI spec .44 mag loads. That's clearly not the position BB is taking on them, thus I don't think the use of single, duplex or triplex loads means the loads all meet SAAMI spec.

Steve, I think you are without doubt the foremost authority on the planet regarding the Model 92, and I'll take anything you say regarding the Model 92 (by any maker) to the bank with 100% confidence you are correct. But when you're telling me that BB's .44 mag loads do not exceed SAAMI spec, you're in direct conflict with what's on the BB website, where they 1) have a restrictive list of suitable firearms, and 2) advertise some of their .44 Mag loads as "+P" and "+P+".

Absent any pressure data from BB, or a statement from BB that they are in fact all within SAAMI spec, everything else is just wishful speculation, and that could get someone hurt.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:22 am

Hobie wrote:I'd do what Tim says. That said, I used the old Remington 240 gr. SJHP on hogs in CA with zero problems. I don't see a need to make a .44 Mag rifle a .444 Marlin, buy a .444 Marlin if you need one.

A-Ha...!!! A reason to get another gun. . . I like the way you think, Hobie. . .

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:52 am

I agree with the logical case that the Buffalo Bore loads should be useable in the Rossi 92; Steve/NKJ is not the only one saying the Winchester 1892 in modern steels is significantly stronger than the Marlin 1894, either. I think it is 'reasonable' to assume that the Rossi is as strong as the modern Winchesters.

So logically Steve/NKJ is making perfect sense.

Interestingly, the Marlin 1894 being recommended with the caveat of a re-barrel in a faster twist rate, would be a modification that, if anything, I would expect to slightly increase pressures with a given load.

I wouldn't be surprised if fancy loading with duplex/triplex methods would be able to keep overall pressures down even below SAAMI 'vintage' specs and yet deliver higher velocities; think about it - if they could lengthen the time period of acceleration by making sure that there is the initial 'bump' to start the bullet moving, then a 'boost' halfway down the barrel to not only increase velocity while in the barrel, like most loadings do, but increase the acceleration at that point, as well. Buffalo Bore would have to label it as 'different' somehow, though, for liability reasons, and thus the vague "+P+" designation. They would list the toughest guns - the ones that we usually use if we're into attaining power, vs. just using a historic vintage levergun - as 'acceptable'. I'm betting that the Rossi was just not as popular when they made their list of approved guns, and wasn't considered; or perhaps it was not considered a standard-enough manufacturer, since different manufacturers and importers were involved?

I'd use them, myself, if I really thought it were necessary (that's why I said "probably"). However, like several guys have pointed out, the more ordinary loads are going do do what I actually need done (whitetail, etc.). However, IF I were in 'bear country', I'd definitely be using the Buffalo Bore or similar loads. I'd certainly consider going up to a 444 Marlin or 45-70 or 454 Casull or 500 S&W if I were wanting that power regularly. As an aside, the 454 Casull being chambered in a 'slightly modified' Rossi 92 does make me think the action is capable of quite a bit of pressure. There are modifications certainly, but they did stick with the same basic mechanism.

earlmck · Post by **earlmck** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:03 am

I have the Rossi in both .454 Casull and a 44 WCF and there is no visible difference between the 454 action and the 44 WCF action, and you can be pretty assured that Rossi doesn't mess with different steels for the different actions. So I'd have no worries about the Rossi action handling whatever pressure any commercial outfit loads a 44 mag to. What I would worry about is shooting loose the magazine tube with the shoulder-buster loads. That is one area that Rossi had to seriously redesign when they chambered the 454.

Heck, I've shot loose the mag tube on my 38/40 while using loads that would no doubt be considered +P (if there were such a spec for a 38/40

). The mag tube attachment is the weak point of the win 92 design.

And I have quit using my 44 mag Redhawk on elk because I failed to get through penetration (hence very little blood trail) with my 280 grain WFN bullet at 1400 fps (yeah, that no doubt rates +P or maybe +P+). So if I were shooting a 44mag carbine I'd be wanting to have all the velocity I could reasonably get with a nice 300 grain bullet if I went after the larger critters. And I am sure the Rossi would do it, but it might also shoot loose the mag tube, which would be a danged nuisance.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:10 am

You know why no one is giving you the exact pressure limits of the (PLUS P PLUS)Buffalo Bore Ammo ????
Because unless you somehow can get it tested(or possibly Buffalo Bore)tells you--------you one knows.

Look, that case is smaller than the .454 Casull case-----There is still BB ammo out there tossing that 340gr slug at almost 1500fps out of a 7" barrel.
I talked to my friend yesterday at the Gun Club(who is extremely knowledgeable) on the gun/ammo pressure stuff.
He calculates that with that loading the .44mag would be in the vicinity of 57,000 psi.(????)

Do you know if that regular 44 mag Rossi is built to shoot that stuff???????

Why are they now showing as of late--------less velocity of their product????????/

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:38 am

And I have quit using my 44 mag Redhawk on elk because I failed to get through penetration (hence very little blood trail) with my 280 grain WFN bullet at 1400 fps

did you miss my 420gr redhawk load? search for it. it penetrates douglas fir like a 45/70. it will put a round thru an elk from any direction, I am sure. a guy in MO built a redhawk just for that bullet and with (IFIRC) 1032 fps it penetrated 13 one-gallon water jugs. it rings gongs with authority at 100 yards.

if you want reliable penetration from a hunting hand gun weight is far more useful than speed.

Grizz

1886 · Post by **1886** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:50 am

Not to take this thread off topic, regarding shooting the mag. tube loose with heavy recoiling loads in the Rossi 92 carbine. I experienced the same thing. I replaced the forward most barrel band with a later Marlin 1894 barrel band and screw. The Marlin screw is considerably larger/fatter and provides a much more firm purchase on the mag. tube. I am now able to shoot very heavy recoiling loads with no mag. tube "growth". 1886.

I have not seen this mentioned, what is the OAL of the round in question? In my experience, the Rossi 92 requires rounds that are no longer than 1.60".

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:04 am

madman4570 wrote:You know why no one is giving you the exact pressure limits of the (PLUS P PLUS)Buffalo Bore Ammo ????
Because unless you somehow can get it tested(or possibly Buffalo Bore)tells you--------you one knows.

Look, that case is smaller than the .454 Casull case-----There is still BB ammo out there tossing that 340gr slug at almost 1500fps out of a 7" barrel.
I talked to my friend yesterday at the Gun Club(who is extremely knowledgeable) on the gun/ammo pressure stuff.
He calculates that with that loading the .44mag would be in the vicinity of 57,000 psi.(????)

Do you know if that regular 44 mag Rossi is built to shoot that stuff???????

Why are they now showing as of late--------less velocity of their product????????/

The lack of any pressure data from BB is exactly the issue of concern.

For what it's worth I'm not worried about any of their .44Mag +P or +P+ loads in a Rossi Model 92. The Rossi 92 does just fine with the .454 Casull - a round that has a SAAMI spec of 65,000 psi.

Buffalo Bore includes the Winchester Model 94 on their list, and it's generally accepted that the Model 92 is a stronger design than the Model 94, which further confirms the Model 92 should be fine with those loads. I suspect it's been omitted due to legal concerns from an inability to get approval from any or all of the companies that made or make Model 92 clones.

"Suitable rifles include T/C Encore, 'modified' Marlin 1894 (see next paragraph), Winchester 1894, any rifle with a falling block action and the Handi Rifle."

It's some of the pistols on the list that worry me:

"This new load is designed ONLY for certain firearms. They are as follows; Ruger Red Hawk, Ruger Super Red Hawk, Ruger Super Blackhawk or Vaquero, Freedom Arms Model 83, Taurus Raging Bull, Colt Anaconda and Dan Wesson Revolvers."

The Vaquero advice in particular alarms me as they are making no distinction between the new and old model Vaquero and I'd think twice about launching a 340 gr round at 1400 ft per second out of a 5.5 inch "new" Vaquero built on a medium frame, let alone a whole box of them.

That is of course assuming you can find a Vaquero in .44 Mag - which makes you question the accuracy of the list.

Griff · Post by **Griff** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 11:23 am

86er did some testing of Buffalo Bore .45 Colt loads in my 1885, 24". I don't recall what velocities were attained... but the rifle's not suffered any indications that it was misused. IIRC, they'd only tested them in a 20" Rossi and wondered what the extra 4" of barrel would give. Wouldn't mind havin' myself...

Just have to keep it away from my 1873, Henry and SAA Colts!

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 2:08 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.

OK,
I guess I should have elaborated a bit more. I don't know if all the BB + or ++ loads exceed standard SAAMI. In 45lc it would seem obvious that they do. Particularly since BB list only certain guns to use them in.
For the particular ammo in question, their 44mag+P+ for which they list only certain guns, it too is probably beyond SAAMI specs. But, knowing the Marlin 1894 limit is under about 45,000 psi this ammo probably falls in that range as well.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 5:59 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.

OK,
I guess I should have elaborated a bit more. I don't know if all the BB + or ++ loads exceed standard SAAMI. In 45lc it would seem obvious that they do. Particularly since BB list only certain guns to use them in.
For the particular ammo in question, their 44mag+P+ for which they list only certain guns, it too is probably beyond SAAMI specs. But, knowing the Marlin 1894 limit is under about 45,000 psi this ammo probably falls in that range as well.

Yep!

Here is their link
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=151

Notice what BB calls out for the 45-70 (Notice Marlin OK) Also notice they list the Rossi as OK for this.
However I believe that 44+p+ is far greater pressure wise than this hot 45-70

If BB thought that 44 Rossi was adequate in the .44mag (they would say)?????
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... etail&p=54

When they stake their Reputation and actually their Company(legally wise)as what ammo is suitable for what guns------they tread lightly and you can bet have done their homework.

Notice what they say about that exact item----------------

We get hundreds of emails asking if this load can be fired in S&W revolvers or some firearm other than what is in the above list.
The answer is NO. The above list is all inclusive. If some shooters continue to irresponsibly use this product, we may have to discontinue it and that would be unfortunate as it is our best selling 44 mag. load and it gives great performance for those that use it responsibly however, as is always the case, irresponsible use of any product ends up penalizing responsible users.

I know what the wording (no)means, as I also understand the wording (The above list is all inclusive)

Nate Kiowa Jones · Post by **Nate Kiowa Jones** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 9:18 pm

madman4570 wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:
Tycer wrote:SAAMI max is not exceeded by any BB loadings. The Rossi is a strong gun capable of shooting SAAMI spec ammo.

The thing to remember is you don't have to increase pressure to increase velocity. Powder burn rates can be manipulated to increase velocitys and still be within the pressure limits. The Buffalo Bore folks do this by duplex and triplex powder recipes.

Bottomline is the Rossi 92 action will handle any of thier ammo.

OK,
I guess I should have elaborated a bit more. I don't know if all the BB + or ++ loads exceed standard SAAMI. In 45lc it would seem obvious that they do. Particularly since BB list only certain guns to use them in.
For the particular ammo in question, their 44mag+P+ for which they list only certain guns, it too is probably beyond SAAMI specs. But, knowing the Marlin 1894 limit is under about 45,000 psi this ammo probably falls in that range as well.

Yep!

Here is their link
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... tail&p=151

Notice what BB calls out for the 45-70 (Notice Marlin OK) Also notice they list the Rossi as OK for this.
However I believe that 44+p+ is far greater pressure wise than this hot 45-70

If BB thought that 44 Rossi was adequate in the .44mag (they would say)?????https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l ... etail&p=54

When they stake their Reputation and actually their Company(legally wise)as what ammo is suitable for what guns------they tread lightly and you can bet have done their homework.

Notice what they say about that exact item----------------

We get hundreds of emails asking if this load can be fired in S&W revolvers or some firearm other than what is in the above list.
The answer is NO. The above list is all inclusive. If some shooters continue to irresponsibly use this product, we may have to discontinue it and that would be unfortunate as it is our best selling 44 mag. load and it gives great performance for those that use it responsibly however, as is always the case, irresponsible use of any product ends up penalizing responsible users.

I know what the wording (no)means, as I also understand the wording (The above list is all inclusive)

Or, it could be they just never tested it in a Rossi.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:02 pm

Nate Kiowa Jones wrote:Or, it could be they just never tested it in a Rossi.

That's what I'm thinking....

Model 52B · Post by **Model 52B** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:07 pm

They also may just be concerned about Rossi's quality assurance.

BuckRimfire · Post by **BuckRimfire** » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:28 pm

I picked up a stainless .357 24" octagonal barrel over the weekend, so I'll need to search for other threads on what abuse *that* gun can take. Feel free to point me to your favorite threads on that version of the 92!

It's likely that I'll also pick up a .44, after my bank account recovers from various abuses I inflicted on it lately. Since I'm very unlikely to set out for bear hunting, I doubt I'll have any reason to try the BB +P+.

Thanks for all the interesting responses!