Would you load this powder ???????

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Boreman
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Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Boreman »

I have been reloading for 50+ years, never seen this before ?
I opened a new can of IMR 4064 to reload some 35 Remington rounds. This is an older can that had the metal seal in the pour spout. This can had never been opened before and had always been stored in a cool dry powder cabinet. On pouring the powder into my powder measure a light brownish dust flouted out of the can. The powder had the typical "ether" smell of powder. I ignited some powder with a match and it flared up an burned like powder. So I wonder about the condition of the powder. Any idea's or comments, gentlemen? Would you use it ? :o Powder is hard to find !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Griff »

I don't know that I would use it... You might try contacting Hodgdon about it. Hodgdon now controls all distrubition of Hodgdon, Winchester and IMR powders. Just how old is it?
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jnyork
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by jnyork »

I absolutely would not use it, it is deteriorating as evidenced by the "rust" and the ether smell. New powder does NOT have an ether smell. Sprinkle it on your roses, it's good fertilizer. Suck it up and buy some new powder. :D
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by M. M. Wright »

Dissenting opinion here. I'd use it. Heck, I've got powder I've had for 30 years that I bought second hand when I got it. Red Dot. Just my opinion but then I'm too cheap to throw it out.
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by junkbug »

I always thought the ether smell was good powder and an acidic, bitter smell was bad powder.

If the only issue is a slight reddish dust, and all else is fine, ie; no clumps, oozing fluid, or yellowish discoloration, I would load it. Start with the starting load charge for the powder and cartridge, just to be safe. I have seen that before, and did not feel it was a problem
Model 52B
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Model 52B »

An ether, acetone or alcohol smell is entirely normal. Those are solvents that are often used in powder production.

If it has an irritating acidic smell that's a sign of decomposition. Deteriorating smokeless powder can also produce reddish fumes - which is a little different than reddish dust in the can.

This is what Alliant has to say on the issue:

"How To Check Smokeless Powder For Deterioration
Although modern smokeless powders are basically free from deterioration under proper storage conditions, safe practices require a recognition of the signs of deterioration and its possible effects.

Powder deterioration can be checked by opening the cap on the container and smelling the contents. Powder undergoing deterioration has an irritating acidic odor. (Don't confuse this with common solvent odors such as alcohol, ether and acetone.)

Check to make certain that powder is not exposed to extreme heat as this may cause deterioration. Such exposure produces an acidity which accelerates further reaction and has been known, because of the heat generated by the reaction, to cause spontaneous combustion.

Never salvage powder from old cartridges and do not attempt to blend salvaged powder with new powder. Don't accumulate old powder stocks.

The best way to dispose of deteriorated smokeless powder is to burn it out in the open at an isolated location in small shallow piles (not over 1" deep). The quantity burned in any one pile should never exceed one pound. Use an ignition train of slow burning combustible material so that the person may retreat to a safe distance before powder is ignited."

----

You'll note they make no mention of reddish dust. Personally, if it still smells like acetone and does not smell acidic I'll use it. I've never blown myself up yet. :D
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earlmck
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by earlmck »

I had a can of IMR4227 start doing that rusty dust thing. I just went ahead and used it up with no problems noticed, though I didn't do any chronographing to see if I could detect reduced velocities from "normal". Just looked through my stash of "leftovers" and I see a can of IMR 3031 doing the same thing. Hmmm.

I've only seen this in the old metal cans. I have a little dab of the H4831 that Hodgdon was marketing in 25# cardboard kegs back in the 60's. I have it rattling around in the bottom of a Hodgdon powder jug from something else I emptied long ago. It still appears just fine, and it had to be WWII surplus when I got it in the 60's. Yeah, I know a fellow should go ahead and use these dabs up, but what does a 30/30, 35 Rem guy do with 4831? I sold the 264 Mag it was useful in lots of years ago, and gave away the 25/06 to a grandkid. Maybe I can get the kid to use it up. Or make up some duplex loads? As in heat up the 4831 with a few grains of green dot? Anybody have a recipe for that?

Yeah, I'd think you need to go ahead and get some extra shooting in with that 35 Remington over the next couple years and by then the craziness should be somewhat gone and you can get a fresh can.
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Catshooter »

I've seen this red dust before. The powder I saw was magnetic big time. I thought it might be a bad idea to run this dust down the bore as I wasn't really sure that it was actually part of the can that had rusted. If I recall correctly iron oxide is quite a bit harder than iron.


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Mescalero
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Mescalero »

The red dot I bought sunday was in a plastic container.
In 15 years ( if I am still alive ) will I be writing in , it has this dust and that smell?
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Old Savage »

I wouldn't use it - sounds like it has oxidized. had some 322 change like that and I did load some and it had changed. Poured it out in the lawn.
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Chuck 100 yd
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Chuck 100 yd »

Usually if in a metal can and the inside of the can is rusty I will pitch it. But if there is no rust and it don`t burn my nose to smell it it is good to go. Solvent smells are normal but if it stings (bites) your nose it is going or has gone bad and can be stronger or weaker in energy depending on the condition of retardant coatings and other factors. It is best to play it safe especially when used in large rifle cartridges.
Yesterday I shot up some .357`s that I loaded using Hercules Bullseye that has a price tag on the can that is UNDER $3.00. That price has NOT been seen in a while. They shot great.
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Mescalero »

For those of us with containers with those prices on them, it makes it hard to accept modern prices.
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by w30wcf »

I had an older can of 3031 that had rust specs in it. The powder smelled fine. I emptied the can onto a newspaper and checked the inside of the can which was a bit rusty. I disposed of the can, sifted the powder to remove the rust and put it into a plastic powder can.

Ammo loaded with that powder performed just as it should....... :D :D :D

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Boreman
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Boreman »

Thanks for the comments. I took note of the comment about rust in the can, so cut the can open.The inside of the can was rusty from top to bottom.I was very surprised because the can had never been opened.I think I will take advice and get rid of it.
My local Wally World carries some reloading supplies,long story short,Icalled,,they had 5 cans of 4064.
Wife and I finished supper and made a beeline for WW.When I got there I could only find 2 cans. When I was checking out I mentioned the 5 count. The clerk said she had 5 cans when I called and a guy had just bought 3 cans.I purchased my 2 cans and ran for the door. In fact, when I left they did not have any powder left on the shelves :D :D :D :D
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by Mescalero »

A Wally world with powder?
That is refreshing!
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by 3leggedturtle »

earlmck wrote:I had a can of IMR4227 start doing that rusty dust thing. I just went ahead and used it up with no problems noticed, though I didn't do any chronographing to see if I could detect reduced velocities from "normal". Just looked through my stash of "leftovers" and I see a can of IMR 3031 doing the same thing. Hmmm.

I've only seen this in the old metal cans. I have a little dab of the H4831 that Hodgdon was marketing in 25# cardboard kegs back in the 60's. I have it rattling around in the bottom of a Hodgdon powder jug from something else I emptied long ago. It still appears just fine, and it had to be WWII surplus when I got it in the 60's. Yeah, I know a fellow should go ahead and use these dabs up, but what does a 30/30, 35 Rem guy do with 4831? I sold the 264 Mag it was useful in lots of years ago, and gave away the 25/06 to a grandkid. Maybe I can get the kid to use it up. Or make up some duplex loads? As in heat up the 4831 with a few grains of green dot? Anybody have a recipe for that?

Yeah, I'd think you need to go ahead and get some extra shooting in with that 35 Remington over the next couple years and by then the craziness should be somewhat gone and you can get a fresh can.
Earl; a case full of 4831 in 30/30 with a 170gr Lee FP is good for 1800fps and decent accuracy. A case full in a .308 with a HNDY .30 cal 150gr SPP chronoes 2250fps and is accurate at 100 yards.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

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earlmck
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by earlmck »

3leggedturtle wrote:Earl; a case full of 4831 in 30/30 with a 170gr Lee FP is good for 1800fps and decent accuracy. A case full in a .308 with a HNDY .30 cal 150gr SPP chronoes 2250fps and is accurate at 100 yards.
That's a good idea, 3leg. 1800 fps is just about my normal cast bullet velocity in 30/30; I had better go ahead and use that old stuff up before I get so senile I forget what it is...
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jamesgpobog
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by jamesgpobog »

As in heat up the 4831 with a few grains of green dot? Anybody have a recipe for that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't mixing powder types/lots one of the Prime Directive no-no's of reloading?
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3leggedturtle
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Re: Would you load this powder ???????

Post by 3leggedturtle »

jamesgpobog wrote:
As in heat up the 4831 with a few grains of green dot? Anybody have a recipe for that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't mixing powder types/lots one of the Prime Directive no-no's of reloading?
Go to the Cast Boolits site. Lots of posts on duplex loads, also called kicker charges. 3leg


I once smelled a can of powder like that to see if it was still good. The rust and dust plugged me up and then I coughed and hacked for 2 days. Next time i'll take it outside on a breezy day and pour it into an ice cream bucket so the "stuff" blows away b4 smelling it.
30/30 Winchester: Not accurate enough fer varmints, barely adequate for small deer; BUT In a 10" to 14" barrelled pistol; is good for moose/elk to 200 yards; ground squirrels to 300 metres

250 Savage... its what the 223 wishes it could be...!
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