Old vs new -- for better or worse

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:38 pm

This is completely off topic for leverguns (well, maybe a little on topic - who knows) -- but in my thread on whether or not to sell my Guide Gun, (I didn't sell it) --- Madman brought up the fact that new technology is there for a reason, why not use it (I'm paraphrasing )

But I immediately thought of my cycling hobby as something that, similar to guns, I typically hold onto my old iron , even though I upgrade to newer,lighter, faster every other year or so -- I used my trailbikes as an example, -- and the next logical progression of the thought process was my road bikes ---

The top steed (and its placed appropriately in the attic

) is a very nice steel framed Italian machine that likely has many many more miles left in it -------- but, - I use the one pictured at bottom, which is carbon fiber and has much better shifting and braking than the older bike

Next , I found a pic of a telephone from 40 years ago --- obviously the little devices most of us pack around now are more capable than this machine

So --- what I was curious about -- can anybody post up an example or pic or two of some items that were better in the past than their modern counterparts? -- or maybe just more examples of items that are better now in demonstrating how far we've come with technology
another one I can think of is my later model Kershaw assisted opening pocket knife vs my Buck 110-- no pics handy, but the new stuff slices and dices, but doesn't weigh my pocket down like the old Buck did

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:44 pm

You are correct. But, I still use cast iron quite a bit, and the new modern firearms, while kind of cool, are not as pleasing to me. I love wood.

AJMD429 · Post by **AJMD429** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:50 pm

...and those old phones were far better weapons when thrown, than the wimpy little ones they make now...

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:59 pm

AJMD429 wrote:...and those old phones were far better weapons when thrown...

I recall the scene in the movie "Casino" where Danny DeVito (or was it Joe PEsci - I forget) , uses an old phone to beat a banker about the head and shoulders

jjames · Post by **jjames** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:45 pm

Let me see if I can find an old picture of myself. I was definately better in the past

Mescalero · Post by **Mescalero** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 3:53 pm

Yeah, me too!

jnyork · Post by **jnyork** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:18 pm

jjames wrote:Let me see if I can find an old picture of myself. I was definately better in the past

Yup. I'm not as good as I once was, and I have been told I never was anyway.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:20 pm

Here's the deal. When the carbon bike breaks you gotta buy another.

You could run over the steel one and have it back on the road the next day. All by yourself.

And your modern phone? Throw it into the pool alongside the big brotha, pull them out the next day, and the big one will run again, the new one? Not.

So, while the stuff we like is geeky and heady and cool, and has amazing performance, it won't work after the EMP "event". Could be a shot from the sun, or a shot from an Iranian barge in the gulf of mexico, with its nuclear mirv EMP devices that the lying class is aiding and abetting. Nothing will work that isn't caged at the right moment.

Except my vaccuum tube radios and magneto sparked chain saws and outboard engines.

So, while it is cool, it isn't reliable or long lived. Except maybe the carbon bike.

know what I mean?

BrentD · Post by **BrentD** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 4:26 pm

Streetstar wrote: Next , I found a pic of a telephone from 40 years ago --- obviously the little devices most of us pack around now are more capable than this machine

So --- what I was curious about -- can anybody post up an example or pic or two of some items that were better in the past than their modern counterparts?

I will wager that your phone in that picture has better sound quality than the one in your pocket. Sound fidelity in just about everything has gone so far downhill I avoid phones whenever possible.

And just about all the singleshot rifles were better then than now. Lever guns too I think.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 5:51 pm

"Better" has many meanings. Guns and cars were made better as in craftsmanship in the old days but nothing beats the accuracy of today's guns and the reliability of today's cars.

Even up to the eighties, tires on cars were worn out in 20,000 miles. Ain't nothing to get twice that today.

People who are in my house say how's strong it was built with 12" rafters in the basement on 16" centers. Brick all the way around. It was built in '75. Today's houses will hold the heat twice
of what mine will, ....so, which is better?

I bought a John Deere tractor in 1975 and used it to cut 2 and 4 acres for 30 years. I went to look at new ones and the comparable ones looked like junk, so I bought a Kubota, which will outlast me.

On the bike thing, well, I remember paying $40 for one back in 1967 from my paper route money. I used that bike a lot up until I started driving or 5 years. My son bought a bike 6 months ago and paid $4,000 (yes, that's three zero,s) for it and more than likely, he will have to get a new one next year.

Back in the day, our government was better, but too slow. Look how fast today you can get food stamps and a check for doing nothing.

One thing for sure, the washing machines were better back in the day. Better as in craftsmanship, durability, and in cleaning. I can attest to that.

I gotta go load ammo, big day at the club tomorrow. ----6

yooper2 · Post by **yooper2** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:08 pm

All of my best woodworking tools are older than I am, some are older than my grandfather. I'd also be lost without my favorite felling axe which my dad bought at a antique store in the 70's.

Eric

rjohns94 · Post by **rjohns94** » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:13 pm

I like split cane fly rods over modern graphite ones in 5wt.
I like bamboo longbows better than graphite ones. The new ones have no life in them.
I like old ruger single actions better then the new model
I like old leverguns better than new ones
I like old Harley's better than newer
I like nortons better than Harley's and triumphs better than nortons
I like gen 1 colts better than gen 3
I like old English shotguns better than any other shotgun
I like English double rifles better than modern ones

Just a few

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:06 am

The Giriondi Airgun tech (Lewis & Clark/1800s) was/is lightyears above even current PCP Big Bore airguns...

The new guns may use better tanks, but they aren't nearly as effective or useful.

Grizz · Post by **Grizz** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 8:44 am

how did they pump it up? the pump technology is as crucial as the trigger in an airgun.

Was it T. Jefferson who set them up with the air rifle?

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:01 pm

Grizz wrote:how did they pump it up? the pump technology is as crucial as the trigger in an airgun.

Was it T. Jefferson who set them up with the air rifle?

http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewt ... =1&t=33604

Still, it's one of my favorite subjects. Here's the research done by Mr. Beeman.

The Girondi...

Made today with modern metalurgy & rubber seals it would be frighteningly good.

http://beemans.net/

http://beemans.net/lewis-assault-rifle.htm

M. M. Wright · Post by **M. M. Wright** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 1:54 pm

rhohns,
I too really like the old Nortons. Wish I still had one, (I have 2 old Harleys). The Norton was a Combat Commando and the best thing I ever did to it was dump the twin Amils and put a single Mikuni on it. Still have an unused Ceriani front end for it.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:39 pm

Man, that's an easy one. Old Jeeps were far superior to new ones. Made of better materials (today's sheet metal is pitiful), you could keep them running with nothing more than simple hand tools. And they will take a beating that leaves the new ones looking for a computer to cry it's woes to.

Then again, today's Jeeps are really made as blvd cruisers (hey, they need a cushy ride and all those automatic goodies to keep teeny boppers buying them) not off road vehicles.

You know I wonder what the percentage of Jeeps made today never see anything further off road than the family drive way.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 9:54 pm

jeepnik wrote:
You know I wonder what the percentage of Jeeps made today never see anything further off road than the family drive way.

Don't know if this counts or not , but I saw quite a few out and about and doing fine on the nasty, icy and snowy roads we had out today in Oklahoma. -- I chose my '00 Sport and the performance was confidence inspiring as long as I thought ahead

FWiedner · Post by **FWiedner** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 10:09 pm

jeepnik wrote:Man, that's an easy one. Old Jeeps were far superior to new ones. Made of better materials (today's sheet metal is pitiful), you could keep them running with nothing more than simple hand tools. And they will take a beating that leaves the new ones looking for a computer to cry it's woes to.

Then again, today's Jeeps are really made as blvd cruisers (hey, they need a cushy ride and all those automatic goodies to keep teeny boppers buying them) not off road vehicles.

You know I wonder what the percentage of Jeeps made today never see anything further off road than the family drive way.

Bought my wife a '98 Wrangler some years ago. It was and still is a worthy vehicle.

I'll never forget the first time we took it off road down in the Big Bend of south Texas, around Terlingua.

For three days I'll swear that every third line from her in conversation was "DON'T HURT MY JEEP."

... and she considers herself "outdoorsy".

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:54 pm

The old Jeeps were junk. The older they are, the more junky they were. Remember, this is coming from a guy who has three, my son and daughter each has one, ( my son has had 5,) my sister has 2, my BIL has one, my niece has one, my other BIL has one and there's a few others, but I don't like the people, so I will not mention them.

The YJ should be called the wrong j, the TJ is much better and the jk eats em all up. Better ride, better rears, better t cases, quieter, better trans, better interior, coil springs....I could go on but I'm tired.

The only thing better about the older jeeps is the inline 6 vs the new v 6. The v-6 has more punch but is more problematic.

Haven't we been through this before?

---6

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:05 am

Just talking to guy who works for an appliance sales company yesterday. He does their repairs. He said the hard thing about dealing with customers is making them understand that he is aware that the new appliances, while more complex than they used to be, are not as good, don't work as well, and are designed to fail early, yet there is nothing he or anyone else using or selling appliances can do about it. Appliances, like many other products today, are designed to NOT last.

I grew up without electricity. My dad got my mom a little Homelite generator and an old ringer washer in the '70s. The washer was very old by then and worked reliably the whole time I was growing up.

When I was 9, my dad bought a boat that had a 1940's Frigidair refrigerator on it (Boat was built in 1920s, fridge was slightly newer). It was a heavy old beast that ran fine. My dad sold that boat when I was about 15, and a couple years later the guy who bought it let it roll over on the grid and it was floated, run up on a beach, and someone set fire to it. That's what it took to stop that fridge.

When we look objectively at modern cars, we can see that there are a lot of new processes, materials, technologies, and components that are used today, but few of these things are really necessary. Cars have had some advances that make certain parts last longer, yet other parts are designed to fail. Some changes truly make modern cars safer. A lot of changes make the cars cheaper to produce, but not cheaper to buy. Other changes are the addition of technology for the sake of technology, but ar enot truly necessary. A lot of stuff only makes the cars more complicated, less efficient, and we would be better off without it, especially a lot of the government mandated stuff.

On a remote job I was on recently there were five pickup trucks; at least one or another was down at all times, always for computer or electrical reasons, always because of systems that are superfluous.

I spoke with a guy years back who was a top player in what later became the Freedom Group. He was asking me about performing work for them, and he explained their plan to me. He said that they would take what they learned from the automotive world and apply it to the firearms industry. They would buy at least one major brand that built each type of firearm, purchase competitors and fold them into each brand, and make budget, mid range, luxury, and high-end models for each. He said their plan was for all firearm manufacturing to be done by only two or three companies who manufactured all the brands and they planned to be the first. They would bring production of the various brands under one roof and find ways to decrease production costs and maximize profits. I was skeptical then and I am skeptical now. I think that we have all seen the results in the Marlin firearms. I am also seeing the results in the ARs and AR parts they manufacture. I have a spent considerable time lately adjusting things like uppers, charging handles, and lower parts to fit.

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:12 am

I like the older Jeeps much better. My dad had an MB when I was a kid. My first vehicle was a 1948 CJ2A and I drove a DJ3A when I was in college. I like CJ5s and M38A1s almost as much as the flat fenders.

The old jeeps were designed for a purpose, and they fit that purpose well. They were not built for cruising comfortably to the mall or hair salon. People who wanted more comfort for driving around town needed a different vehicle.

The new jeeps fail at being a nice comfortable vehicle for taking the family to church or commuting to work in the city. But efforts to make them work better for that purpose make them fail at being well suited for the original purpose.

Edit: The original Willy's MB and Ford GPW jeeps were designed so the engine could be fully disassemble with hand tools, and the headlights turned backwards to shine on the engine while you were working. The fan could be shut off for fording. A few guys could lift the things.

MrMurphy · Post by **MrMurphy** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 12:16 am

Thus why I recommend certain brands of ARs and not others.........

On the Girandoni, I've seen one in person, at a museum in Austria, and another at a museum in San Marino (a tiny little republic on a mountain inside Italy) along with a lot of other random stuff you don't normally find, like an MP-41 and a FAB-43, though the FAB we were at least in the original home country......

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 3:30 am

MrMurphy wrote:Thus why I recommend certain brands of ARs and not others.........

Yeah, if all AR parts were built to spec, there would be no issue, and there are a few manufacturers that I really feel that I can trust and recommend, and several others that are pretty good, but I have discovered more and more that a ton of commercial ARs are marginal in function, which means they function when everything is optimal, but when conditions are not perfect, there can be problems.

Unfortunately, some of the manufacturers that used to fall into the pretty good category have dropped to the I don't want to touch them category recently.

cshold · Post by **cshold** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:35 am

What decade do you guys feel that overall product quality took a nose dive?
I feel it was the 70's.
Seems the use of plastic really took off in the 70's.
As a young boy growing up, I remember the Christmas toys
of the 60's being much better built than my brothers toys
of the 70's (same toy comparison).

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:53 am

[quote="Streetstar"], I typically hold onto my old iron , even though I upgrade to newer,lighter, faster every other year or so -- I used my trailbikes as an example, -- and the next logical progression of the thought process was my road bikes ---

but, - I use the one pictured at bottom, which is carbon fiber and has much better shifting and braking than the older bike

/quote] Kinda says it all bro-----why would you use them if ????

Ok- First how bout

Tractor: I have well now had as of few months ago a fine old John Deere Model A tractor. Built a 400lb roll cage,huge 8ft front plow with HD attach supports not only to the frame but also to the axles. Could run it into a tree at 5mp and it would just do nothing but stop.
Double ring chains the works! But when I needed it,it was usually zero degrees blizzard conditions out. It was no good then. Didn't matter you could have the best battery in the world,just a PITA to get up and going. better have the shovel handy! I gave it away!
Pay it forward!

Then some smart man came up with the 4 wheel 4WD ATV
600lb tiny machine that can pull my SUV around the yard, Park in a tiny shed, plow 3 times as fast because of speed and more importantly being 4WD and being very maneuverable. It would always start, run all season on about 7gals of fuel and plow the driveway of 350ft in about 10 mins with only a 5 min or less startup to plow time. No comparison. SUV's:

Had me until a few months ago a fine which I too gave away: Pay it forward!
1966 Ford Bronco, made a nice yard flower. Freeze you a## off in it. Hope going uphill in a snow or rain storm you can drive with head out side window, vacuum wipers su## Gotta get somewhere fast. 60 mph got the three on a tree stuck in third hope she don't blow?
Now the Ford Escape, 30 mpg, can go 90mph all day long, warm toasty,and stuff don't break.
Had it 9 years, lets see 2 sets of tires, 1 EGR valve, 1 water pump. 1 rear tail light bulb and 1 left front headlight bulb. That is it. Even has same exhaust. I see same thing heading with our Kia Sportage. Absolutely no comparison.

Bicycles:
Ok riding the good ole Schwinn Varsity in College times was sweet. But that is one heavy bit##. and would after riding it for couple hours makes your a## feel like it injusted a softball. Then came the light frame,better comps,just better bikes.
Wanna do it cheap and go fast too. Take a Cannondale M700 put some High Pressure better technology Kevlar belted 100psi tires on it and stick add on drop down bars on it and you can about do it all except maybe extreme downhill,off road stuff. And they have only gotten better from there.

Motorcycle:
Oh boy here we go.
After the Honda 250 Dream, bought a bike a dude got killed on,got his head taken off from going under a 18 wheeler only slightly marking up bike. Got the Leather Jacket hardly marked too. BSA 650
Got some candy apple red paint,base painted tank, grabbed some of moms fancy lace cloth stuck it over tank and sprayed some black.
A few chrome things and she didn't look half bad,sounded good and was fun.
Better have the retard button on and in a few kicks hope she would start for ya! The big thing after she started and run better have your wrench always handy cause you are going to need it tightening stuff back up about once every week including license plate holder.
Then I saw it like a million dollar diamond sitting in showroom. But an Orange diamond!
A Brand spanking new 1972 Kawasaki 900 Z1 the shop finally got one in on Dec 1972. They sold me it as a left over but wouldn't take one penny off price but did the service free. That was in April of 1973 OMG, I have GOT to have it (don't care I will give my soul) World's Fastest Production Road Bike. Can I try it? How much did you say again? Screw it, never mind--its a deal.

Can I have it by tonight. Going down RT17 @ 138 mph laying on tank and things at a blur. Me? I would not do that ? Would I ?
Used to be this bunch of yahoo's that hung on this porch wanting to run people anytime anything even remotely looked worthwile.They mostly had kludged tricked out Honda 750's and a few Harley's which didn't matter anyway

Kind of like the dudes on the Movie "Every Which Way But Loose" come to think of it I was kinda like Philo Beddo

But for sure every darn time they would see someone off the porch they would come for ya.

So, when I came riding up with the Z1 those fools off the porch on their bikes. They pull up and when we hit the log straight stretch I looked at the leader who pulls up beside me he smiles and nods and he downshifts, at that second I downshifted down into 2nd and hit it.Front end came up and by the time I hit 4rth they were just simply just GONE!
Reliability on it was like nothing I ever had before. Superb.

Heating systems:
Growing up we heated with Coal, The big dirty smelly coal that went in his huge monster furnace that 4 kids could hide in.
During the day and night run down with big shovel and out of bin shovel baby shovel. Work that long handled ash shaker handle like you were doing cardio at the gym.
Then some brilliant man thought of a tiny little compact Coal Stoker Furnace that used clean, washed rice coal.
Pour in 2 Lowes buckets full in hopper, with metal bushel basket ash bucket in and on Friday afternoon take to trip to NYC and come back Monday morning and guess what everything is dandy, stoker going right along, house warm, and in 3 mins switch ash buckets, pour in 2 more Lowes buckets and " wanna go to NYC again" ? They even got battery backups for some via car battery for 3-4 days when power goes out.

Guns:

Sure do love old man's M1 he brought back from war. A fine Springfield Armory weapon. Fine shape!
Used to take that to school doing the 200yd matches in our Rifle Club meets. Every week at school we used either the schools or our own rifles for 50ft indoor school range. had my own Anschutz target rifle. All were .22 cal
Then even after College using still using the SA M1 at various matches.It was a good one!
Not bad, on a 500 perfect score shoot would get about a 390 score, Very respectable against the older dudes.
Wanna see how good you shoot? Go to a 100yd M1 shoot and do the 500 point shoot and see where you fare.

Then got me a Colt SP1 like they used in Nam
Showed up and the dudes thought, WTF he is going to use the black plastic toy?

Smile wiped off their face fast. My scores went generally to around 420

Then it happened in 1991 just like when I saw that Z1 Road Bike. In the Gun Shop a shiny new black Colt MATCH HBAR, OMG
Honey, hide the hogs and break out the check book,who cares how much, can I get a consecutive S/N's matched set. I can

, who do I make it out to?

Show up at the meet (had been practicing taking vacation days off work)

What's up MOW FOES!
They are looking at what I pull out

Well after we shoot lets's just mosey on down and look at them there targets.

Do I hear a 469 someone???? What is the course record hurry look it up!

Them dudes looking at the Garands, M1A's, some 03's etc. they were a sad sack of fellows!
I said, hey, you guys can get one too?

After a short time the big guns dudes were shooting the black plastic toys!

Dogs and Women.

Look at where we are. want a dog by breed that is a world hunter, family lover,but in an instant when Mr. Bad guy comes knockin turns into a killing machine get a Mastador. Least ones I have seen. Want a dog that is a world hunter,has the traits of the Lab but even smarter,and does not shed, get a Labradoodle.

Women: Just look at them now OMG, and they can even be a little nastier too---and I like that!

Yep, I am evolving into what ? I don't know, but just staying as is for me, Not!

ps-- While just out walking my dogs looking up another item, roofs.

Now, they have came out with special treatment of special galvalume metal panels. Extremely light, specially designed for rib strength and ease of roof attachment with new technology neoprene washers and Stainless screws with make a roof a lifetime roof at about same cost as regular roof. Also if damaged it is simply a panel replacement.

Even the underlayment, old tar paper verses waterproof breathable synthetic membrane such as GripRite.

And looking at my Escape, how bout a extremely light 60 lb Lexan snowplow that can be on/off in a blink! ?

Old technology for so many things, not even close!

How bout a smart burg system as I am walking by mine.

Can be in Hawaii and get a notice that someone is on my property via smartphone then watch them/the cell video cams around property are unreal for a burg system or just wanting to look at deer in my yard that day wherever you are.
Can have Burg system silently call 911, can have burg system just sound a warning alarm, can have burg system call 911,sound alarm at same time. wife can be coming up driveway see someone strange on deck hit her Key Fob and 911 on the way without a sound or warning! How bout answering machine or using text? we would be lost!

Old technology we wouldn't even have each other on here!

7.62 Precision · Post by **7.62 Precision** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 6:54 pm

Madman4570, your AR-15 technology is not so new. The M16 is the longest serving rifle design in US military history, and the basic design has changed not at all since the 1950s, apart from some small improvements. So it is really a 1950s technology based on older designs, like the gas system from the Ljungman. The reason for the success of the design? It was a great design and it took advantage of new material technology, in good, simple ways.

I think the discussion here is not whether we should use new technology as it becomes available, but overall how that technology is applied to products and how the manufacturing philosophy has changed.

A new Marlin levergun uses design that has seen only a couple really noteworthy changes since the late 1800s, yet the older ones are now considered superior due to modern manufacturing philosophy.

The AR-15 is a superior design to most other semi-auto rifles, and as good as any other, yet many sold today on the commercial market are marginal in function, or unreliable due to sloppy manufacturing processes and sourcing cheap parts from overseas.

With cars, we have some great new technologies, but we load the cars with a bunch of unnecessary junk that serves no purpose but to make them more complicated and expensive. In the 1960s, researchers modded a full-size car to get unreal gas milage - better than anything today or at that time. Yet we mess around with hybrids and junk.

Rock rills are a good example.

Pneumatic drills were very simple. Anyone who could work on plumbing could work on an air track. An Ingersol 350 with a 671 hammer drilled nicely when hooked up to a 1200 compressor, hang from tugger cables in the face of a cliff, and just drilled and drilled. The compressor would burn up to 120 gallons of fuel in a shift, depending on the footage the driller was getting.

Along came hydraulic drills. A hydraulic drill could have a hammer with a penetration rate almost double that of most air tracks, yet the drill burned only 80 gallons per shift. On a lot of jobs, though, a good driller on an air track could hold his own against hydraulics, since the hydraulics tended to be broken down more often. If the drilling was tough or the terrain was rough, air tracks often did better. With air tracks, you could feather the controls and could really feel what was going on in the ground.

Hydraulic hammers started to be improved. They got really fast. At the same time, they added computers to the drills. And lots of delicate electric over hydraulic switches. And lots of electronics.

So a new drill showed up in Alaska. This thing was smart! The computer monitored everything and knew when it was going to get stuck and how to get unstuck. It knew where things were supposed to be, to. When one steel got to the bottom, it automatically stopped drilling and broke the steel. The penetration rate was incredible - it drilled faster than anything I had ever seen. The thing was controlled by a remote - You could sit off in the shade and drill.

The supplier had these new drills sitting in their yard for a full season and a half. No one would rent them.

So they showed up where I was drilling one day with one of these drills on a lowboy. I shut down my drill and walked down to see what was up. They said they would let us run it rent-free for the season, and then send my brother and I out with the drills when they went out on jobs to teach other drillers how to operate them. Here is what I learned about these drills:
You cannot collar a hole well. The blow has two settings, both too high for collaring a hole. Also, when trying to collar a hole, the drill assumes that it is getting stuck, and the computer takes over, reverses feed, and destroys the collar.
You cannot drill in bad ground. I know how to drill in bad ground. The computer does not let me.
It is designed to drill vertical holes. If you drill at certain angles, the steel falls out of the rack. It can kill you. It also cannot be put back into the rack except by using the steel changer arms.
The moving parts know where they are supposed to be in order to perform a certain function. If you tell them to perform that function, they move to the proper location, first. Except you may be trying to put a steel back in the rack, so you may be between those parts and where they think they need to be.
The remote has a delay. Sometimes barely at all, sometimes a second or two. A lot of damage to the drill can happen in 1 or 2 seconds when things go wrong.
Computers, electronics, and salt water do not mix. Transportation to most places in AK is by barge, and can take weeks to months. Weeks to months on the salt water means replacing computers and electronics, if you can get the guy to fly over from Sweden to check the computer that year . . .

I could easily out drill the new drills with a little, slow, old drill because I was not fighting the computer, breaking down, etc. I punched a rock through the cast aluminum oil pan. Balancing the top-heavy thing on rough ground was an art. The boom style made setup take longer.

I was talking to my dad a year or two ago about what drill to recommend a company buy. I mentioned that if you took the hammer from one drill, put it an another drill, stripped of it's computer and with simplified hydraulics, it would be a great drill. He said it was funny, we were talking about the perfect drill, and the perfect drill does not exist, but it could easily. It would just take the new hammer technology combined with the simplicity of older drills.

In other words, we have everything we need to make a really outstanding drill, but we have added so much complication to the systems, that we are not really any more efficient than before, and often less so.

All new drills (much like new cars) are built to work in the best of conditions. Old drills were built to handle the worst conditions.

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 7:07 pm

Cool post 7.62

Good info!

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Fri Dec 06, 2013 9:21 pm

Sixgun, it's obvious we disagree on new versus old Jeeps. But here's my challenge. What are you going to do if the fuel pump craps out on you fuel injected Jeep, you have no spare (yea I know you do, but many folks aren't that bright), you're twenty miles from pavement and have no cell signal.

Answer, start walking.

Now, Six, you are probably like me and have a short wave set, or you have or rented a sat phone, or maybe even an old school CB, although you might be hard pressed to connect to another on these days. But, again, most folks don't. So, they either wait for someone to come along, or walk.

While you're deciding what to do, I'll just rig up a liter bottle full of gas, drip it into my old fashioned carb and motor on out. Read about that in the Jeep Bible. Used it to get back into Fawnskin, Ca, after I crushed mine when a battery bracket failed. I wasn't as good a welder as I thought I was.

Too much electronic stuff to go wrong from windows, to seats to tranny (if it's an auto) on new Jeeps. Give me a distributor, rotor, cap and carb every time. Heck, it was either, Granville King, Willie Worthy or Moses Ludel that described how to fix a busted cap and make a rotor from a piece of metal and a hunk of wood, all with common hand tools, and little "un"common sense.

Oh, and Heaven help you if you loose your ignition key on anything new, cuz you aren't going to be able to hot wire it with the ease I can my old Jeep. And yes, I done did that too. Somewhere at the bottom of Skinner Lake in Temecula, Ca, is a set of Jeep and house keys.

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:09 am

Jeepnik,
First, I have no cell phone,no CB, no nothin' to communicate with.

Sometimes, things just break. Oh well. 90 % of breakdowns are caused by the cooling system.
My 2 newer jeeps are used for the highway. Highly unlikely they will break down.

This brings us to "ole Yeller", my old 89 YJ. Every year, in addition to tire rotation and oil changes every 2k miles, I go over the entire jeep and change, clean, or inspect every mechanical part, check fluids in the rears, transfer case, trans, master cylinder, etc.
Every 2 or 3 years, I spend a few bucks and replace the thermostat, fan belts, change the cooling system fluid. Every 5 or 6 years, I change the fuel, vacuum, and cooling hoses, fluids all the way around, rear wheel cylinders and yes, the fuel pump. It's a 35 dollar part and is held on by 2 bolts.

Three times in 25 years I have pulled the trans and transfer case and replaced the clutch and pressure plate, resurfaced the fly wheel, and replaced the clutch slave cylinder.

The motor has never been out of the Jeep. Near 200 k and it does not burn no oil. It has never left me on the side of the road.

Preventative maintenance is a priority around here. I have been driving for 43 years and other than a car wreck or two when I was younger, only once have I been on the side of the road. That was a freeze plug that rotted out on my old 79 ford pickup and blew out the coolant. You know what I did? I hitch hiked 20 miles to home, got my tools, had my wife drive me to the auto parts store and then to my truck, where I disconnected one of the motor mounts, jacked up the side of the motor and slipped in an adjustable freeze plug, filled her up with water that I brought along, and drove the truck for another 10 years when I sold it in 1996. I still see that truck on the road once a year or so.

Preventative maintenance will keep you on the road and if something does happen once or twice in a lifetime, well, that's what my legs are for. I'll still wake up the next day.

The old vehicles are fun to drive and yes, I like them, but.....the newer ones are even better.----6

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:37 am

Sixgun wrote:
The old vehicles are fun to drive and yes, I like them, but.....the newer ones are even better.----6

Yes ...........And yes

My '75 454 equipped pickup with some mild hop up parts is a verifiable gas to drive (in my own fantasy world, I will drive this truck to the gates of Hades with a Big 45/70 carbine by my side ) --------

------- but, - the new iron is much more user friendly

The last pic almost dictates the appropriate place in life for either , --- the older iron on the trailer waiting to be tended to, while the newer rig unapologetically tows it along and helps me earn a buck at the same time ------ original mileage on the orange rig is less than 70k while the white truck (nicknamed "The Fridge") has 170k troublefree miles so far (a power window motor did go out though)

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:18 am

A few years ago, we had a bit of a forest fire. Brought out all available fire equipment, including the old 1978 F-700 tanker. Also a 1976 F-350 that hauled the spare pumps, etc. That old F-700, I drove it from 11am til 8pm, never missed a beat. Our newer Ford tanker with diesel engine, on the other hand, crapped out after two trips, and required special parts to get it going. The old F-350 was the same, never skipped a beat. These were basic trucks in the extreme, no power steering, not even an AM radio. I must admit, the newer trucks are more comfortable, ride better, and having more available speeds is nice. However, opening the hood and seeing no pollution BS, electronics, etc is very refreshing. I had loads of fun driving those trucks.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:26 am

7.62 Precision wrote:.

I think the discussion here is not whether we should use new technology as it becomes available, but overall how that technology is applied to products and how the manufacturing philosophy has changed.

A new Marlin levergun uses design that has seen only a couple really noteworthy changes since the late 1800s, yet the older ones are now considered superior due to modern manufacturing philosophy.
.

Good point --- I didn't mention it as an obvious, but I meant to keep the guns out of it --- I know full well a lot of us like pre-64 Winnies, pre-safety Marlins (or pre-Remlin Marlins , more recently) , push feed Model 70's vs controlled round feed, Old Colts vs new reproductions, and on and on

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:30 am

Hey, Six. Well, an '89 isn't exactly a "new" Jeep. It does have fuel injection, I believe, and computer controlled ignition. But I don't believe it has all the power windows, seats, door locks etc. that the newest ones have. And, it seems we're of the same mind when it comes to PM of our vehicles. Heck, we wouldn't have 24 and 31 year old Jeeps if we didn't.

I have to admit, when the Unlimited came out I looked at it as a replacement for my CJ-8. But, all the electronics and potential failures of same stopped that idea cold. Great body style, too many doodads.

Hmm, when was the last time you heard of someone loosing a freeze plug from rot? I guess modern coolants are better than older ones for corrosion prevention.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:45 am

Noticed this threa went from old washing machines to Jeeps. My experience - WWII Jeeps that we had in the National Guard units in the early/mid 70s and the 2014 very basic Patriot, very different animals. Last trip got 32 mpg to Paso Robles loaded with three and luggage. Front wheel drive, 6 speed auto trans, 2.0 Liter engine VVT, roll up windows. Priced a spare key the other day - $170 and it has no electronic functions.

Now on M16s, haven't fired one since 76 and don't think I have ever fired an AR.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:47 pm

Old vs. New...

After TSHTF/TETOWAWKI I'll take a 1940s dual fuel Duce-1/2 over about anything.

Period.

Not fast, not agile, but will go anywhere and do anything until DESTROYED.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:33 pm

We'll not exactly, we had those too. Be careful about rollovers, pulling off the freeway to have lunch in a field, one of the deuce an d a halfs rolled over off a dirt access ramp 12 guys hospitalized, two died IIRC.

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:12 pm

Old Savage wrote:We'll not exactly, we had those too. Be careful about rollovers, pulling off the freeway to have lunch in a field, one of the deuce an d a halfs rolled over off a dirt access ramp 12 guys hospitalized, two died IIRC.

But, I bet the engine started and they drove it off after they got it upright.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:37 pm

Our last duce was "wrecked" a year or so ago... rolled down a ravine, BACKWARDS until it got launched and landed, hard, on the rear duals... while wearing a 750gal Fire Pachage.

Bent the frame and both axles.

Still, we drove it home, but replaced it with one of the "new" A4 refits with Super Singles and an Allison tranny.

QCI Winchesters · Post by **QCI Winchesters** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:44 pm

Old Ironsights wrote:Old vs. New...

After TSHTF/TETOWAWKI I'll take a 1940s dual fuel Duce-1/2 over about anything.

Period.

Not fast, not agile, but will go anywhere and do anything until DESTROYED.

The 40's deuces were all gassers, multifuel trucks came out late 50's or early 60's.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 2:48 pm

Ok, then......Some of you are looking at history through rose colored glasses. If your Old Stuff is running it's because you made a hobby out of it. The average, non-wrenching Joe had to trade it in about every 100,000 miles (if you were really lucky). Those automatic chokes for carbs really sucked. The PolyGlas tires didn't hold the road worth a darn, and all that solid steel, without crush zones, were death traps.....Today's motors are just getting broke in real good at 50,000 miles, MPGs are astounding considering the increase of horsepower. You could not give me a 20 years old vehicle for everyday driving.....

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:35 pm

Streetstar,
That is one clean looking Chevy truck. Is the big block gutless? You know, 9-1 and 300 hp or is it a LS-6 and 550 hp?:D

Anyway, it's Saturday night and I'm all excited. Excitement these days means hanging out on Leverguns and fondling my new acquisitions from gunshop hopping that me and "The Gunny" did today.

First, my acquisitions..8 lb of Herco for $109, A can of Ballistol, 9mm taper crimp die, (for the Uzi) 100 Starline brass for the Colt SA 44 Russian, (yea, I can cut down 44 Spl/mag, but at $20??) Lee factory crimp die in .308 for shooting cast out of the M1-A, some RCBS decapping pins, LED light with a magnet that will blind you. (I blinded "The Gunny" in the gunshop and he got a little po'ed) and this other stupid looking gun part that was made in 1916 and is still like new but it don't have any barrels.

Just some junk

Now it's on to "Ole Yeller". (She's a beauty

)

Aftermarket Weber carburetor.

Bare bones baby ! I like this Jeep much more than the Jeep pictured below, but...........If I'm driving more that 50 miles, the cover comes off.

It's only been in the rain 12 times. I figure the coffin will be big enough for me and the orange Rubi to fit in together.

Streetstar · Post by **Streetstar** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:22 am

Sixgun wrote:Streetstar,
That is one clean looking Chevy truck. Is the big block gutless? You know, 9-1 and 300 hp or is it a LS-6 and 550 hp?:D

Gutless is a subjective term, but yes, its a standard issue truck engine -- but many people are surprised how well even a basic big block runs with a freer breathing exhaust and an intake that allows more air ---13.7 in the 1/4 , but lack of traction means its not very consistent, if it blows the tires off on the 1-2 upshift, it throws it into the 14's just like that
Its still a white knuckle ride around town, but a fun one

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:17 am

QCI Winchesters wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Old vs. New...

After TSHTF/TETOWAWKI I'll take a 1940s dual fuel Duce-1/2 over about anything.

Period.

Not fast, not agile, but will go anywhere and do anything until DESTROYED.
The 40's deuces were all gassers, multifuel trucks came out late 50's or early 60's.

We had a 1953 M35A2 Duece and a half. We really really always wanted though a M939 5 ton

I mean we had it for 15 years as a road vehicle. We put a brand new rough cut white oak removable panel high stake bed on it.
The cab was painted Metallic orange. And for the bumper(original not rugged enough)we put on a custom bumper being a section of railroad rail. I remember the length of it being 3 place numbers?

Think it was 102 inches??
When I bought my John Deere Model A tractor the people I bought it from (Greene,NY)said how are you going to get it home?
I said , you guys have a decent grade sloped bank close by which they did. Said you let me worry about that see you in about 4 hrs.
Pull up to bank pull out a few big oak rough cut planks and drive the Model A right in bed! Off we go.

Dude, Sure it was rugged and everyone stared at us when driving around in it.
But, with gas the cost it is now you couldn't afford to run it much. Top speed going down the freeway

About 50mph,maybe 55mph dude, you are getting there. If I remember right average mileage was around 6mpg combined.
Trust me they are not without their issues. Try one for a daily driver?

We did take it out back though up a 14 % grade on wet leaves on a log trail next to a 380ft deep gorge.
It made it but I about wet my shorts. Brother said while grinning don't sweat it bro if we go over a few of those big oaks will hang us up!

They look cool,are hardcore indeed but dude for an actual use vehicle for the normal dude for transportation?
They su##

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:34 am

madman4570 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Old vs. New...

After TSHTF/TETOWAWKI I'll take a 1940s dual fuel Duce-1/2 over about anything.

Period.

Not fast, not agile, but will go anywhere and do anything until DESTROYED.
...
Dude, Sure it was rugged and everyone stared at us when driving around in it.
But, with gas the cost it is now you couldn't afford to run it much. Top speed going down the freeway
About 50mph,maybe 55mph dude, you are getting there. If I remember right average mileage was around 6mpg combined.
Trust me they are not without their issues. Try one for a daily driver?

We did take it out back though up a 14 % grade on wet leaves on a log trail next to a 380ft deep gorge.
It made it but I about wet my shorts. Brother said while grinning don't sweat it bro if we go over a few of those big oaks will hang us up!

They look cool,are hardcore indeed but dude for an actual use vehicle for the normal dude for transportation?
They su##

Note that I said TETOWAWKI, not "Daily Driver". Once we hit that poing I want "big hammer fixable" and "runs on anything combustible". Speed will be the least of my worries.

This is the Duce that we replaced our old one with:

madman4570 · Post by **madman4570** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:41 am

Old Ironsights wrote:
madman4570 wrote:
Old Ironsights wrote:Old vs. New...

After TSHTF/TETOWAWKI I'll take a 1940s dual fuel Duce-1/2 over about anything.

Period.

Not fast, not agile, but will go anywhere and do anything until DESTROYED.
...
Dude, Sure it was rugged and everyone stared at us when driving around in it.
But, with gas the cost it is now you couldn't afford to run it much. Top speed going down the freeway
About 50mph,maybe 55mph dude, you are getting there. If I remember right average mileage was around 6mpg combined.
Trust me they are not without their issues. Try one for a daily driver?

We did take it out back though up a 14 % grade on wet leaves on a log trail next to a 380ft deep gorge.
It made it but I about wet my shorts. Brother said while grinning don't sweat it bro if we go over a few of those big oaks will hang us up!

They look cool,are hardcore indeed but dude for an actual use vehicle for the normal dude for transportation?
They su##
Note that I said TETOWAWKI, not "Daily Driver". Once we hit that poing I want "big hammer fixable" and "runs on anything combustible". Speed will be the least of my worries.

This is the Duce that we replaced our old one with:

Make no mistake, they are extremely cool and extremely formidable.
When I used to show off/sound off about my 1969 13" lifted F100 with 44" Swampers.
More than once the bro would pull up in "Zeus" and brother would say that yeller little thing is for sissies. cry:

jeepnik · Post by **jeepnik** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:24 pm

OI, back in the late '60's early '70's the Air Force was still running some of the old 530B pumpers. Designed as a structural/brush truck. I seem to remember they were built on the duce and a half chassis. Darned things would go anywhere. But you had to know how to "drive". I don't think it even had syncros at all. Double clutch all the way. Seem to remember it was a six speed with a three speed transfer case.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Sun Dec 08, 2013 12:30 pm

jeepnik wrote:OI, back in the late '60's early '70's the Air Force was still running some of the old 530B pumpers. Designed as a structural/brush truck. I seem to remember they were built on the duce and a half chassis. Darned things would go anywhere. But you had to know how to "drive". I don't think it even had syncros at all. Double clutch all the way. Seem to remember it was a six speed with a three speed transfer case.

Yep. Our old "six-by" was like that. Used the old-style dual wheels with split-rings too.

Gotta admit, I do like the "new" Alison Tranny & run-flat Super Singles...

BTW, the cab tin & fire package are directly off of the wrecked frame... pretty amazing to look at the back of the old truck and see a U-shaped set of axles. Looked like an over-loaded VW Bug... but was still drivable.