NEED A STOUT 45-70 LOAD

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:37 pm

I am starting to load up some 45-70s for an upcoming Texas hog hunt and a black bear hunt later this year. I have decided on the Speer 400 gr. slug and just need to settle on a couple powders and charges. I like AA2015, 5744 and RL7, and have those on hand already. Question is, how stout to make them. I hear of folks pushing 400's to 2000 fps or more. I don't think I want to go that hot, but would like a bit more than the 28K psi that the Speer data shows for lever actions. To tell the truth, the standard loads would certainly do fine, I just feel like that's not letting the rifle play to it's full potential. They will only be fired in a Marlin 1895.

SMP · Post by **SMP** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 6:41 pm

I use H4895 with the 405 gr Rem JSP,which is similar to the Speer.I get 1791 avg out of my 22" Marlin 1895 using the max load for H4895 as per the hodgdon data.I use Win brass and CCI 200 primers.HTH.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 7:02 pm

Of the three you list, RE7 is the one that will give the highest velocities for the least pressure. I've done over 1000 pressure shots (mostly 350 grain) in the 45-70 and RE7 always came out near or at the top of the heap. H4895 certainly wouldn't do bad and it is really hard to screw up with 4895; pretty hard to get enough in to get to a dangerous pressure level (assuming a 40K upper limit).

Post by **Old Savage** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 8:56 pm

Leverluver - care to share the parameters you found with the 350s.

Blaine · Post by **Blaine** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:22 pm

Ted, I'm using 40 grains of H4198 and getting almost 1700fps from the 1895 Cowboy with it's 26" bbl and about 1400 with the 10" BFR this is with 405 Rems and I get a hair better with the Aardvark hard cast 405s...... IMO, you'll get a bit better penetration with the lighter loads, save money on powder and have more enjoyment shooting for an afternoon. Some day, I would like to work up a modern day express load using a GCed 300 pushed to 2300 or so just to have something for the 250 yard shots in my pocket........

Sixgun · Post by **Sixgun** » Sat Mar 29, 2008 10:36 pm

Yep, Leverluver has it right. 40 grains of RL-7 gives me 1700 out of an original 1886 using 375 grain cast gc. We kill elk with that load, so it ought to be plenty for hogs and such.----------Sixgun

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 12:14 am

I don't know exactly what you mean by parameters but the goal was to find what appeared to be the best powders and by best I mean which will give the most velocity of the least pressure. Not saying that some of the powders that didn't measure up by my criteria do not have utility by some other legitimate criteria. For instance maybe one powder gave superlative accuracy even though it is one of the lesser desirable by velocity for pressure standards. Even I will take an accurate load over one that gives me another 100fps but less accuracy.

I set up a test rifle (bolt action) and equipped with a SG system. To get something of a standard, I loaded every load in every reputable manual that stated pressures, while using exactly the same load components (at least as well as any loader could possibly do; obviously I did not have access to "their" lot#s) stated in the manual's tests. I also fired and compared every commercial load that exceeds SAAMI specs (I had no interest in SAAMI spec or under loads) and how they compared to the pressures given by the loads from the manuals. These included Grizzly, Buffalo Bore, Garrett, and the "so called" +p PMC load (no longer available) along with a few others of mild interest such as the Hornady LR ammo.

From there I tested every powder that had any practical use in the 45-70 with the purpose of finding those most appropriate for top velocities. I'm sure I will forget a few but I did test H4198, H322, H4895, H335, Varget, Benchmark, IMR 4198, IMR 4895, IMR 3031, Re7, Re10, AA2230, AA 2015, VV N-130, VV N-133.

For the top velocites (again talking 350 grain), RE7 and AA2230 were at the top of the pile. RE10 and VV N-130 slightly behind that. Next came a big group of popular powders that all work well (all within 25fps) but were ~50fps below the top ones. On the absolute bottom of the pile came 2015 in all it's iterations (2015, AA2015, XMR2015) which was always 100fps behind the main group of powders and 150fps from the top ones.

One of my favorites was VV N-133. It fell ~75 fps short of the main group of powders and 125fps short of the top powders, as capacity did not allow sufficient room to reach 40K levels but what velocity it did produce it did at very low pressures; at what I would estimate in the 31-32K level. ES and SD were always single digits. The powder impressed me on several levels and I would not frown if that were the only powder that I ever had available for the 45-70.

If I get the time and interest, I may play with 400s this summer but that bug hasn't bit me yet, and may possibly never do so.

Lloyd Smale · Post by **Lloyd Smale** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 5:57 am

you do not want to run a 400 at 2000fps in a marlin. Id limit one to about 1800. Maybe 2000 in a gun like a #1. For one thing if youve ever shot 400s are 2000 in a guide gun your not going to like what it does to your shoulder!!!!!

TedH wrote:I am starting to load up some 45-70s for an upcoming Texas hog hunt and a black bear hunt later this year. I have decided on the Speer 400 gr. slug and just need to settle on a couple powders and charges. I like AA2015, 5744 and RL7, and have those on hand already. Question is, how stout to make them. I hear of folks pushing 400's to 2000 fps or more. I don't think I want to go that hot, but would like a bit more than the 28K psi that the Speer data shows for lever actions. To tell the truth, the standard loads would certainly do fine, I just feel like that's not letting the rifle play to it's full potential. They will only be fired in a Marlin 1895.

gon2shoot · Post by **gon2shoot** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:50 am

My shoulder prefers a 405 running about 1700fps

it's easy to get with 4198 and I wouldn't hesitate to fling it a a hog.

Using Elmers formula it gives a KS of 98.
My 30-30 170gr load at 2120fps rates a 51.

getitdone1 · Post by **getitdone1** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:33 am

I believe Elmer Keith and many others liked 53 gr of IMR 3031 with 400 gr bullets. Reloading expert Ken Waters tried this load in his old model 1886 Winchester and decided the pressure was too high for the gun.

Anyone here know what this load chronographs out of 22 and 26 inch barrels?

Edit: I see where my Speer manual has this load going at a little over 1700fps out of their Marlin w/22" bbl.

I DON'T RECOMMEND THIS LOAD OR ANY LOAD TO ANY ONE. IT COULD BE DANGEROUS IN YOUR GUN.

See various loading manuals for what they consider safe before using this load in your particular gun.

Don McCullough

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:57 am

I loaded some with 2015 and RL7 using the data from the Speer manual. If the rain lets up I'm going to try and get to the range today and see how they shoot. If they shoot ok I will send some over the chrono too. After some more thought, I decided that the loads by the book will be all the recoil I will want anyway. Ranges on these hunts will be fairly short, so the trajectory at 1700-1800 fps will be fine. Will report back later if I get to the range.

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 10:10 am

getitdone1 wrote:I believe Elmer Keith and many others liked 53 gr of IMR 3031 with 400 gr bullets. Reloading expert Ken Waters tried this load in his old model 1886 Winchester and decided the pressure was too high for the gun . . .

Edit: I see where my Speer manual has this load going at a little over 1700fps out of their Marlin w/22" bbl . . .

Don McCullough

Don:

I've used 48 gr of IMR-3031 under a 400 gr JSP in my 1972-vintage Marlin 1895 for years. It kills at both ends, but the cases show no effects of excessive pressure. I've been loading the same 150 cases for like 12 to 15 times and they haven't needed trimming. Velocities clocked 1770-1810 over my trusty old Oehler 33 depending on ambient temperature and that of the ammo through the Marlin's 22" barrel. My Marlin has the eight (8) lands and grooves, the earlier version of the MG rifling for the 1895.

Noah

Grizzly Adams · Post by **Grizzly Adams** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 1:36 pm

getitdone1 wrote:I believe Elmer Keith and many others liked 53 gr of IMR 3031 with 400 gr bullets. Reloading expert Ken Waters tried this load in his old model 1886 Winchester and decided the pressure was too high for the gun.

Don McCullough

I have used that load a lot in my Browing 1886. I was younger then, and into the biggest baddest trip with the 45-70. It is not a pleasant load, and it kills at the butt end for sure! Takes awhile to recage your eyeballs! Never saw any indications of excess pressure in my rifle, however.

One thing I will add in regards to my experience with the Speer 400 grain bullet. The above load, as well as a milder loading (can't find it now!) of RL7 would pull the core right out of the jacket, when fired into a stack of wet telephone books. The bullet is not designed, IMHO, for higher velocities. I elected NOT to use it on game.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 2:45 pm

I have "terminally" (not pressure) tested most 400s and I agree with Grizz A. The Speer is the weakest of all the available 400s. That can be good news if you load to slow velocities or bad news if you load to high velocities. It will do it's best work if the impact velocity is kept below 1500fps.

Jeff Pitts · Post by **Jeff Pitts** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:00 pm

You know, I've had real good luck with a load that I have for my '86's that has an RCBS 420gr cast bullet traveling at 1512fps. I've used this load for YEARS. I have yet to not have it exit every single elk I've shot with it. Never even needed a second shot. I would think that a load like that would work very well on smaller game such as bear and hogs.

A drawback is its short range but then the 45-70 has never really been considered a real long range rifle. I've used it on deer and elk both out to about 140 yards near as I can remember the longer shots. I use 42grs of 3031 and have shot many groups that could be nearly covered with a nickel at 75 yards using the original open sights

Jeff

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 3:05 pm

I have always had great results with the Ole 405 gr. Rem bullet pushed with 53gr.s of H335 to about 1800Fps. 60gr.s of this propellant will give you 2000 FPS (ouch !)
But the toughest two jacketed bullets are the 300gr. Nosler and the 300gr. Speer HP...(not a true HP) these bullets can both be pushed fast and are able to hold up. They can be pushed to 2300FPS.
But, push ethier of these bullets to 1800-1900 FPS and you got yourself a Sure Fire Bear Killer.

I 'll take a tough bullet over a heavy bullet.

Recoil doesn't bother me to bad ,but it limits follow up shots. (if needed)

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:42 pm

Leverluver wrote:I have "terminally" (not pressure) tested most 400s and I agree with Grizz A. The Speer is the weakest of all the available 400s. That can be good news if you load to slow velocities or bad news if you load to high velocities. It will do it's best work if the impact velocity is kept below 1500fps.

Well darn, I wish I had known that about the Speer bullet. I always thought it was one of the tougher 400's. I have an outstanding load with the RCBS 420 gas check bullet cast from wheelweights. I don't recall the exact charge of RL7 without my notes, but it was clocking 1850 from my Marlin and shooting less than two moa. Maybe I'll just stick with that one.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 6:51 pm

Thanks Leverluver, that is useful. I just wondered what velocities you got at the pressures you recorded.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:18 pm

At the max pressures I am comfortable with (and there are factory loads out there I am not comfortable with) a 350gr will do 2140 to 2170fps with the majority of powders in the middle group. RE7 and 2230 will crack 2200fps. Without pressure equipment, I cannot recommend even attempting max loads with 2015. With that one, just stick to loads from AA's manual, which (hopefully) are conservative enough to keep you out of trouble. I've seen some published (magazine) loads with 2015 that send shivers down my spine so just be warned, there is some (IMO) dangerous stuff out there. Let's put it this way, the low pressure VV N-133 load I mentioned would go faster (2100fps) than 2015 and do it at 10,000psi less pressure. All this from a 22" barrel.

Post by **Old Savage** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 7:40 pm

Well Lever let me ask a specific question. I have a Marlin 1895SS with a 22" barrel that records about 1860 fps with a Hornady 350 gr and 53.0 gr of 3031. What pressure would you anticipate that is running?

Buckeye · Post by **Buckeye** » Sun Mar 30, 2008 9:11 pm

TedH wrote:
Leverluver wrote:I have "terminally" (not pressure) tested most 400s and I agree with Grizz A. The Speer is the weakest of all the available 400s. That can be good news if you load to slow velocities or bad news if you load to high velocities. It will do it's best work if the impact velocity is kept below 1500fps.
Well darn, I wish I had known that about the Speer bullet. I always thought it was one of the tougher 400's. I have an outstanding load with the RCBS 420 gas check bullet cast from wheelweights. I don't recall the exact charge of RL7 without my notes, but it was clocking 1850 from my Marlin and shooting less than two moa. Maybe I'll just stick with that one.

Slow that Speer bullet down to around 1600 FPS and it'll work on any Black Bear that you will ever come across...
That Speer bullet will work great at 1300 to 1600 FPS.

I shot a Boar that tipped the Scales at 345 LBs. with a 1200FPS 405 Gr. Rem. load, it was if that Hawg was hit by a truck.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 12:41 pm

Old S.

I doubt that load would hit 30KUP, if even that. With that load, your rifle will outlast your great great grand children. I dropped 3031 out of the testing pretty early when I found (with the components I was using) that it could not reach the 40K level due to being too bulky.

LL

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 1:58 pm

Did you pressuretest with Varget?

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:00 pm

Thanks Lever, that is the heaviest load I care to use in this rifle. If I ever want more it will be in a different gun. This load yeilded a 5 shot 1 1/2" group on the first testing so it seems about perfect for a heavy load. I also like 25. gr of 2400 with a Speer 400 on the low end.

Leverluver · Post by **Leverluver** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:32 pm

OI

I did try Varget but it, along with the 4895s, 3031, and a few others, were all dropped early on in the testing as all were too bulky to achieve what I was looking for in the test. When OS asked about 3031, I went looking back through my records and evidently I did not even keep the pages on the powders that did not fit my goals and, as I said, Varget was one of them. It may be a great powder for some uses; it just didn't fit the parameters of my tests. Someone would have to be extremely talented to be able to stuff enough of any of those powders in the case to arrive at an unsafe situation (talking 40K lever guns). Plus there is good load data on all the Hodgdon and IMR powders now. I was more interested in the powders that could reach the 40K level but there was no published data available. As I suspected, some of those untested (at the upper pressure range) powders were some of the very best that are available (Re7, 2230, VV N-130). By the way OS, when I went to lunch I looked up in the Hodgdon manual and your load, just as I recalled, is a very moderate one, even being below the Hodgdon start load for lever rifles. It may be that your load dosen't even come up to the 28K level. If that is what works for you, I wouldn't change a thing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Old Ironsights · Post by **Old Ironsights** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:35 pm

Thanks.

GANJIRO · Post by **GANJIRO** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:43 pm

I know, not what you asked for but I enjoying shooting in "Smelly Nelly" my 405 grain cast plain base flat nose on top of 42 grains of 3031 at what I estimate is 1450 FPS, will go clean through all pigs and most wild cattle I should encounter, and fun to shoot at the range.

TedH · Post by **TedH** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 4:58 pm

GANJIRO wrote:I know, not what you asked for but I enjoying shooting in "Smelly Nelly" my 405 grain cast plain base flat nose on top of 42 grains of 3031 at what I estimate is 1450 FPS, will go clean through all pigs and most wild cattle I should encounter, and fun to shoot at the range.

Nothing wrong with that at all. My favorite load for my Marlin is a 350gr. cast bullet running along at 1500 fps. Very accurate and pleasant to shoot. Just want a little more horsepower for a hard hitting hunting load.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:35 pm

Leverluver wrote:OI

I did try Varget but it, along with the 4895s, 3031, and a few others, were all dropped early on in the testing as all were too bulky to achieve what I was looking for in the test. When OS asked about 3031, I went looking back through my records and evidently I did not even keep the pages on the powders that did not fit my goals and, as I said, Varget was one of them. It may be a great powder for some uses; it just didn't fit the parameters of my tests. Someone would have to be extremely talented to be able to stuff enough of any of those powders in the case to arrive at an unsafe situation (talking 40K lever guns). Plus there is good load data on all the Hodgdon and IMR powders now. I was more interested in the powders that could reach the 40K level but there was no published data available. As I suspected, some of those untested (at the upper pressure range) powders were some of the very best that are available (Re7, 2230, VV N-130). By the way OS, when I went to lunch I looked up in the Hodgdon manual and your load, just as I recalled, is a very moderate one, even being below the Hodgdon start load for lever rifles. It may be that your load dosen't even come up to the 28K level. If that is what works for you, I wouldn't change a thing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

That's what I want - I have seen a blown up 1895 (450 Alaskan) and the guy's hand that blew it up and talked to him. I don't want any of that.. 1875 or so is fast enough for me with a 350 in all respects. Thanks again there leverman.

Post by **Old Savage** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 8:50 pm

Let me say also - if I want more, I will want a lot more. Maybe that would be one of the single shots in 45-70 or a 458 or the like. The Ruger #1 is surprisingly comfortable in each.

sore shoulder · Post by **sore shoulder** » Mon Mar 31, 2008 9:37 pm

Old Savage wrote:
Leverluver wrote:OI

I did try Varget but it, along with the 4895s, 3031, and a few others, were all dropped early on in the testing as all were too bulky to achieve what I was looking for in the test. When OS asked about 3031, I went looking back through my records and evidently I did not even keep the pages on the powders that did not fit my goals and, as I said, Varget was one of them. It may be a great powder for some uses; it just didn't fit the parameters of my tests. Someone would have to be extremely talented to be able to stuff enough of any of those powders in the case to arrive at an unsafe situation (talking 40K lever guns). Plus there is good load data on all the Hodgdon and IMR powders now. I was more interested in the powders that could reach the 40K level but there was no published data available. As I suspected, some of those untested (at the upper pressure range) powders were some of the very best that are available (Re7, 2230, VV N-130). By the way OS, when I went to lunch I looked up in the Hodgdon manual and your load, just as I recalled, is a very moderate one, even being below the Hodgdon start load for lever rifles. It may be that your load dosen't even come up to the 28K level. If that is what works for you, I wouldn't change a thing. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
That's what I want - I have seen a blown up 1895 (450 Alaskan) and the guy's hand that blew it up and talked to him. I don't want any of that.. 1875 or so is fast enough for me with a 350 in all respects. Thanks again there leverman.

The chamber wall in the area above the mag tube is already thin enough without reaming it out for the larger 450 AK case (necked up 348 I believe?), so I would not correlate that too closely to a hot loaded 45-70. You can find published loads in the 40,000cup range, and those have been proven to be well under what an 1895 can handle consistently. One gunsmith who has years of specializing in this action says 50,000cup is safe. Of course 450 AK is a wildcat also and load data is scarce, so it wouldn't be too hard for someone not paying attention to overload the case, so I'm not sure I'd blame the chambering either.

Your 350gr at 1875 is really a starting load for the 1895. You could easily soup that up without getting anywhere near the edge of the envelope.

KirkD · Post by **KirkD** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 7:20 am

GANJIRO wrote:I know, not what you asked for but I enjoying shooting in "Smelly Nelly" my 405 grain cast plain base flat nose on top of 42 grains of 3031 at what I estimate is 1450 FPS, will go clean through all pigs and most wild cattle I should encounter, and fun to shoot at the range.

I would lean toward Ganjiro's load rather than a faster one. My favourite load puts the 405 grain bullet out the barrel at 1,400 fps. I just can't see any advantage gained for pigs and Black Bear by a heavier load.

Bluehawk · Post by **Bluehawk** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 9:49 am

Two classic heavy loads that work and have worked for me in three different Marlin M95s one Browning 1886 Carbine and two other single shots is 400 Speer or 405 Remington with 53 Grains of 3031 and 350 Rn or FP Hornady or Speer bullets with 55 grains of 3031 Still use that to day in my Remaining Marlin . I have tried Varget and LOVE its performance and will go to that in some loads but will not foraske my 3031 loads with the heavy jacketed bullets I mentioned .

Noah Zark · Post by **Noah Zark** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 10:14 am

Old Savage wrote:Well Lever let me ask a specific question. I have a Marlin 1895SS with a 22" barrel that records about 1860 fps with a Hornady 350 gr and 53.0 gr of 3031. What pressure would you anticipate that is running?

I can't give a guess about CUP or PSI, but the empties from my 400 gr/48 gr 3031 load will push back into the chamber with little or no resistance, and the primer is not at all flat.

Noah

pdawg.shooter · Post by **pdawg.shooter** » Tue Apr 01, 2008 12:23 pm

After five years of trying I have finally found THE load for my Marlin 1895g. Does everything I want done and is still shootable. I started with new Remington brass, annealed the first Â¾ inch using the melted lead method, belled with a Lee expander and primed with CCI 200. The powder charge is 52gr AA 2495. I started with 48 and worked up with no signs of pressure. This is a compressed load, even using a 16 inch drop tube. The magic bullet is cast in a Lyman 451114 mould. The alloy is 17 parts pure lead, 2 Â½ parts linotype, and Â½ part tin. The bullet drops from the mould .451, 430gr and is ready for patching. I make my patches from 16lb green bar computer paper, cut 2.750 long on a 60* angle 1.500 high. I dip in water and wrap twice around the bullet. They are left to dry overnight, then lubed with BAC. Then the tails are clipped and the bullet is run through a .459 Lee sizing die. I seat them to an OCL of 2.580. These shoot clover leaf groups at 25 yards and into 1.75 at 100. This is with a Lyman 66 rear sight and factory front sight. Not bad for 55 year old eyes. Bullet performance on game is all one could ask for. Iâ€™ll not quit experimenting, but how does one improve on perfection?

Bouhunter · Post by **Bouhunter** » Mon Apr 07, 2008 4:37 pm

One that is very accurate and very good energy is a 420 gr Cast Performance in front of 50 gr of Reloader 7, sized to .459 in the guide gun. You will know when you shoot but it is more of a hard push than a sharp slap like the new ultra mags give. Over my cronigraph the above load gets about 1925 FPS.

Good luck

NEED A STOUT 45-70 LOAD

NEED A STOUT 45-70 LOAD

Re: NEED A STOUT 45-70 LOAD