1st Group with new-to-me T/C Hawken .50 Round Ball

[Old No7]

For the last 10+ years, I've enjoyed using a T/C Cherokee sidelock percussion rifle in .45 caliber. As the pix that follow will show, this one is the little brother to the larger Hawken model, but without the brass trim (like the Seneca model has). The l'il Cherokee shot really well and was a joy to carry in the woods. Oddly, that light weight and easy-carrying were the features that I was after when I first acquired it. But now, those are the very reasons I'll be selling it off... (PM me, if interested in that).

You see, the last couple of winters I've been participating in "Primitive Biathlons", where you run (or walk) for 1.5 miles -- against the clock -- on old-fashioned wood/rawhide snowshoes and engage 8+ targets at 3 shooting stations along the course with a single shot blackpowder rifle. They deduct time for any targets hit, so the lowest net time wins. I don't try to place in the top shooters, but I do enjoy getting out on the snowshoes and shooting the rifle in an informal competition where I'm really competing against myself. And to be honest, it's a great motivation to stay in shape and work out regularly during what could be the laziest stay-indoors part of the year.

With the light barrel weight of the Cherokee, which would be an advantage for smaller or younger shooters, I found it was too easy to "steer the shots" with a heaving chest while on the Biathlon course and pull the shots off target. So this year, I decided to trade up in caliber and weight to get a sidelock that would "hold on target" better for me. After a little looking, I found a real nice used T/C Hawken in .50 cal with the fairly rare 1-66" twist "round ball" barrel, which is 4" longer than the standard Hawken tube. That makes it 8" longer than the Cherokee's barrel and it weighs ~3 pounds more too. Yup, that's more weight that I will have to carry and run with too, but I am finding that it holds really well on target. The "hook" on the trigger guard, which the Cherokee lacks, allows me to pull it into my shoulder with the middle and last 2 fingers; thus freeing my trigger finger to operate the set triggers while offering no support to the rifle.

Here's the first recorded group I shot with the Hawken.

Hawken Group 01 (Medium).jpg

OK, I'll admit that it was only shot at 25 yards... But this was for 3-shots, loaded from a pouch (no bench or table), shot offhand, after being at the outside range for over an hour already messing around with an old flinchlock (but that's a story for another day). The range conditions were a balmy 17 degrees F, with a gusty 20 to 25 mph wind. So yeah, it was really c-c-c-cold by the time I shot these 3 for group... But I figured if I could load and shoot well in those conditions, then it would help prepare me for the upcoming winter Biathlon. The load was a 0.495" ball with a 0.015" patch, lubed with "Mr. Flintlock's" patch lube, which is made locally to me.

Here's a couple of pix to compare the smaller Cherokee versus the larger Hawken. I really like the tradition of these sidelocks; although the T/C "Hawken" design is less like a real Hawken (that would have iron trim, not brass, with 2 barrel wedges) and more like an "1860's New York sporting rifle" from what the BP experts have told me. I had a nice T/C inline once, that was super accurate with a scope and plastic sabots & sub-caliber jacketed pistol bullets, but eventually the "lack of tradition" for that one lead me to sell it off and return to the older percussion guns.

Chrkee vs Hwkn (1) (Medium).jpg

Chrkee vs Hwkn (3) (Medium).jpg

I am curious...

* Does anyone else also prefer to use a larger/heavier rifle, versus a smaller/lighter carbine, to get a better "hold" on target?

* Does anyone else here still shoot these "old" sidelocks?

Old No7

[Barcelona Rick]

I love my TC White Mountain Carbine in .50 caliber...I load 70 grains of FFG Goex and a tight patched .490" round ball. Very accurate to 75 yards (with my old eyes)...my son has a TC Black Mountain Magnum .50 caliber...he normally loads 3 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and a 240 grain sabot hollow point...deadly with open sights (his young eyes) to 125 yards plus. His best whitetail to date was taken with this load at 115 yards...I am attempting to convince him to try 100 grains of FFG and a tight patched round ball next year...take care sir...nice rifles...

rick

[Griff]

I love my Uberti "Santa Fe Hawken" copy. It's a .53 caliber, using either .520 or .526 balls. It also has the 1-in-66" twist, and have found it to be as accurate.

[Old Savage]

What is your load there No 7?

[.45colt]

I have a TC Renegade .50 bought new for $ 143.00 in 1983. still shoots great. more than one macho men shooters were woken up at Family picnics with 110 gr of FFG under a 370 gr maxi ball. . every one else got a patched round ball over 70 gr. these Rifles are quality through and through. My Brother in Law a Marine trained Sharpshooter could keep most of His shots in or around the bull in the target from 120 yards. He has Eyes Like an Eagle. Great Guns.

[Ysabel Kid]

Sweet!

[Blaine]

I put together a .54 Renegade T/C in about 1980. Deer load was 120 gr of Pyrodex P under a patched RB. Two nice whitetail down, no ball recovered. With 40gr Pyrodex P, it was a perfect squill rifle and at 25 yds that would shoot time after time into the same ragged hole.
You shot very good, Sir.

[Old No7]

I love my Uberti "Santa Fe Hawken" copy. It's a .53 caliber, using either .520 or .526 balls. It also has the 1-in-66" twist, and have found it to be as accurate.

Sweet! Now that's a Hawken! Love it! Thanks to Griff for sharing and showing the others what a Hawken "should be".

What is your load there No 7?

The load was a 0.495" ball with a 0.015" patch, lubed with "Mr. Flintlock's" patch lube (made locally to me), over 90 gr of 3F 777 powder. It's quite a "thumper", but with the extra-weight barrel and winter layers on, it wasn't unpleasant at all. I'm told, but have not tried it yet, that with a decent patch/lube combo and that "round ball" barrel, that I can bump it up as high as 110 or 120 gr to boost velocity and extend its range in the woods -- and still get acceptable hunting accuracy. Might be fun to try that some time...

Sure would make a lot of smoke!

My twin and I enjoy it when our round ball flint or percussion guns (shot offhand) out-shoot the modern ARs (off the bench) on the range at 50 yards or so... Doesn't happen every time, but often enough to make it enjoyable. Of course, those AR guys don't like it much... But they need to stand up and learn how to shoot! ** Seems they're too quick to slap the trigger and pour rounds downrange, and wonder why their guns won't shoot. (Hint: It's not the gun...)

** BRASS: Breathe, Relax, Aim, Slack, Squeeze -- and Follow-through (That's how we were taught by our 'ol man.)

Tight groups all.

Old No7

[86er]

Nice rifles and an interesting event. I enjoy shooting a .50 cal BP rifle I made a few years ago. I typically shoot conical or sabot bullets for ease, but I have recently shot some patched round balls at targets and found it to be really accurate and pretty cool. Nice shooting there.

[m.wun]

I have that same gun , I picked it up a year ago for 200$. Same color stock and all.It has a 1-48 barrel and seems to shoot decent with 50gr
of Pirodex RS for short range.Still experementing with it, want to try some shorty conicals.

[CowboyTutt]

Hawkens are just beautiful rifles. I always wanted one of the Hawken-Gemmer style Sharps. Only $6k!

http://csharpsarms.com/catalog-detail/2 ... HARPS.html

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Here is a Black powder velocity chart I put together from about 700 rds through my T/C New Englander in .50 Cal. Patches were T/C .015 preluded.

[CowboyTutt]

Those are some respectable velocities OS. Very much so. Interesting that the Pyrodex seemed to have the fastest velocity both times? Was the projectile lighter? Just curious to know. I'm getting an education to the whole black powder world.

-Tutt

[Tycer]

I have a LH Renegade Flincher in 1:48 .50 that is very accurate with 70 FFFg and a sabot. I've never shot it with a ball. 26" long and 1" diameter.

[Griff]

Tutt, look at the chart again... if you compare the 3F Goex to the Pyro P, then you'll see that there isn't much of a difference... similiarly, compare the 2F Goex to Pyro RS. Goex CTG is a mix of 2 & 3F granulations, so it generally falls somewhere in-between, as it appears on OS' chart.

I just quit using Pyrodex as it was too hard to clean. BP is just a water rinse, dry and then lube for storage. If I was shootin' Pyro, I'd have to clean for a couple of days before I'd get all the foulin' out.

With full-loads of around 100 grains... a RB doesn't give up hardly anything to a smokeless cartridge... IMO... (until you get into the mangl'em type cartridges)!

[CowboyTutt]

Griff, I'm not out in any way to bash BP. I was ignorant to how accurate it can be. I didn't know. What more can I say. Looking at the data again, I would agree that "triple F" is very comparable to Pyrodex with differences of less than 100 fps. Not a big deal. Also, I would have to add that I have never read very good things about ANY of the BP substitutes and I would not recommend them based upon what I have read over the years. The only exception in the data would appear to be some of OS's Pyrodex loads, which did not have a triple FFF to compare to, hit velocities over 2K. I'm not saying that Pyrodex is the better powder, I would be very hesitant to use it. And probably a triple F load could have done nearly as well, it just was not presented in the data. That's all. All my other rifles shoot smokeless and I'm not willing to start all over again with BP. With the right bullet hardness and lube, smokeless fouls very, very little but yields more velocity potentially because you can adjust the burn rate of the powder to the cartridge and barrel length. This should not be so surprising. I do not believe smokeless is a passing fad, nor do I think BP is either. Both can shoot EXTREMELY accurately, but I think smokeless has the ability to yield more power and performance in certain cartridges invented using it. For cartridges originally loaded using BP, and in guns of limited strength, I do not see much difference in power or accuracy.

Regards,

-Tutt

[Old Savage]

Here is one of the best loads.

[Old Savage]

I had no problems with Pyrodex P - it seemed very much like FFFg - clean up was not a problem. Might vary rifle to rifle and procedures might vary and affect it. Humidities are very low here - might also be a factor.

My favorite is FFFg.

[CowboyTutt]

Yes to both your responses OS. -Tutt

[Old Savage]

Have notes like this for almost everyday I went out - so Tutt if you have any questions about variations of the chart.

[C. Cash]

That's a keeper! Yeah, I like a little more weight out front. A 42" long 15/16" across the flats barrel in 54 is just right. 75 Grains 2f under a .530 RB and .016 ox yoke patch, slathered with Lehigh valley lube(now called Mr. Flintlock's Lube), makes em all go into the same hole. I would really love to take a hog with this one.

[Old Savage]

Little more info. 1 inch X ring.



Little experiment here.

[O.S.O.K.]

I've got several smoke poles. One's a TC Renegade in 50 that I like a lot. Another is one of the old CVA mountain rifles with the Douglas barrels in 50 as well. A couple others too - a CVA mountain rifle (Spanish steel barrel) that was bored out (unsuccessfully as it's got "chatter" in the bore) to 58 cal - from 54. An old H&R in 58 and a newer TC - Optima 50.

Haven't shot any of them for some time... I'll have to fix that.

Good for you No.7 for doing the competition - I look forward to getting back in to some kind of competitive shooting too - after I get my life back in order.

[CowboyTutt]

Cash, that is some really impressive wood on that rifle of yours!!!! I don't think I want a rifle so long I can't turn sideways without hitting something or someone or doubles as a pole vault but I'm sure it shoots real well!!! -Tutt

[Glenn]

I've got a Lyman Great Plains with both the 1-60" round balll barrel and the 1-28" "bullet" barrel. The RB barrel is very accurate, but I had to get a .500 RB mould to cast big enough balls to make it shoot its best. Groove diameter is .527". I usualy shoot 70 grs. Goex FFFg with the RBs, but have shot as much as 100 grs. I took this doe a few years a go with the "bullet" barrel and the Lee REAL over 80 grs. FFFg.



Glenn

[Old Savage]

When I bought the New Englander I thought I wanted to shoot conicals but found I had a greater affinity for the round ball. The 1in 48" twist seems to have an accuracy sweet spot in the 1700 - 1750 fps area. Tighter balls can be shot accurately at a higher velocity. I began using .495 started with a plastic mallet in preference to .490.

[Nath]

Excellent posting No7....any trouble moving the little cherokee send it to me and I will see if I can sell it for you....may take a while mind....resession n' all

Nath

[C. Cash]

Cash, that is some really impressive wood on that rifle of yours!!!! I don't think I want a rifle so long I can't turn sideways without hitting something or someone or doubles as a pole vault but I'm sure it shoots real well!!! -Tutt

Thanks Tutt! In the woods it's not much of a problem at all. In the house, you've got to reallyd watch yourself!