How do You Guys do it?

[tcomer]

I keep reading about guys that can hit pop cans at 100 yards but I have a hard time hitting 2 liter bottles at 50 yards. I've used scopes for years and really love shooting the 44 and 357 mag Pumas, but I have a hard time hitting them. I'm trying to set the sights up so the bottle is on top of the front sight but it's hard for me to line the sights up and not wave the rifle around. Of course the trigger doesn't help. I love these guns but I'm getting frustrated at trying to hit small targets. How do you guys do it?

[ursavus.elemensis]

Can you tell us a little about what region you live in? It sounds like you could benefit from a range trip with a local Leverguns.com forum friend.

[Nath]

First of all it is not a race. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can not.
I like shooting off hand as it is the hardest but every now and then I get disheartend when I miss stuff but any way I try to not fight the gun to try and keep it on target but let it wonder about for a while and wait for it to stop. It is at the moment it stops I squeeze the trigger. With open sights I try and line the sights up first and then just look at the front sight and target without moving my head.
Good luck, Nath.

[jnyork]

Here is a really good article on offhand shooting. Do I understand you are having trouble hitting a jug at 50 yards with a scope or with open sights?

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... _102274457

[Old Ironsights]

Nath is right. It's all about practice.

I've gotten so I almost NEVER shoot from the bench except to see whether my sights are close.... at 25 yds.

It helps to learn Offhand if you have a Heavy rifle. THe weight stabilizes the gun and you learn how to focus a bit better.

My first "Offhand" gun was/is a Remington 513T Heavy-barrel Target .22

While I'm no Quigley, I can still hit a 2L bottle (and a Clay pigeon 75% of the time) at 100yds offhand with about any reasonably sighted in rifle... except my Flinchlock.

Getting over the flinch (i.e. rifle basics) is your biggest challange.

Find someone who reloads your favorite caliber and have them make you 100ea of progressively more "powerful" loads to shoot at 25yds... with you shooting them offhand untill you keep them into one ragged hole about 3"-2" diameter.

After that, it's all about tightening it up.

[horsesoldier03]

TCOMER, not saying that everyone exagerates the truth, however, I will say some are not proficient at estimating ranges. However many are very capable at that distance as well. I dont shoot on an actual civilian gun range, however, I do have a 100 ft measuring tape that I have taped off known distances on my range. Unfortunately, my range only allows 50 yrd shots. Hitting a soda can at 100 yrds with iron sights is on the diffucult side to say the least. I would suggest, Dont start out with your targets at 100 yards (300 feet). Keep your targets at 25 to 50 yards starting out and move them out in increments once you consistently hit at closer ranges.

[Nath]

oh yeah - make sure you have ear plugs in no matter how quiet the gun may be to help with the flinch OI mentions

[jnyork]

Here's something you need to know about: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_point_of_aim

Here's some more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight

[Grizz]

tcomer,

First, thanks for gutting up and posting, probably not easy.

Second, Nath hit the nail on the head. Unless you have the gun in a machine rest, it is always moving. Waving around at some scales. The secret to all accurate shooting is to have the bullet leaving the muzzle just as the sights are on target. So the discipline is not to try to stop the gun from moving as it is to control the movement and synch the letoff with it.

Third, if you're having trouble at 50 yards, close to 25. If you're having trouble with that, move to 10 yards or 5 even. Just find a spot where you can see what's happening, and then work on your discipline so that you get the same letoff every time. You can get surprisingly good results from lousy triggers if you master your breathing and squeezing efforts.

The reason for this is to build muscle memory. You want the synapses to fire the gun before you can think about it. That takes lots of practice and lots of trigger time. But like any other skill, shooting basketballs thru a hoop, or hitting a baseball for example, you have to build the information into your eye-hand system. There are several different ways of forming and using a "sight picture". Not everyone shoots the same way, but every good shooter shoots the same way every time.

Another question is which eye is your dominant eye, and which hand do you shoot from. If you shoot right handed but are left eye dominant there are different procedures.

I am right eye dominant, shoot right handed, keep both eyes open regardless of the gun's sight setup, and get a full binocular view of the scene, the target, and the front sight superimposed on it. Not everyone shoots this way, it's just the way I learned.


If you can get a Marlin 39 or a Winchester 9422 or a Henry lever action .22. This will make aquiring these skill sets cheap.

Hope you get some results from these guy's advice, they're the best.

[tcomer]

Sorry, first off I'm in Kentucky. No ranges around me for a long way. I have about a 100 acre farm I shoot on. Development is reducing my range for the long guns. The rifles are Pumas, but the front sight is almost as large at the pop bottles at the distance I shoot at. It will cover a pop bottle at 50 yards. Don't get me wrong, I'm having fun. To a degree. I'm just learning to shoot open sights again. It's just that the sights seem so blocky, if that is a good term. I can benchrest the guns and do pretty darn good with my reloads at short distances. But shooting through open sights offhand is frustrating. How do you shoot accurately if the front sight is bigger than the target?

[AmBraCol]

First, get a good 22 or pellet rifle and practice. A good trigger helps. I put a GRT III trigger in my Gamo CFX and now I've got a rifle I can learn to shoot with again. But don't just get the rifle - buy ammo and SPEND TIME ON THE RANGE. Practice the basics. Work on the basics. Make sure you've got the basics down pat. And don't forget the basics. In other words, if you work on the basic points of shooting with a good, accurate rifle then eventually you'll be able to amaze folks with what you can do. But it takes time and effort and consistency in practice.

[horsesoldier03]

If your sight post is covering the whole target you may try what they term as a 6 oclock hold. That is where you place your bead at the bottom of the targets edge and have the gun sighted in where it shoots slightly higher than your point of aim.

[ScottT]

It is not easy, but it can be done and if I can do it, anybody can.

About 3 years ago, I started working hard on this. Now I hunt exclusively with iron sights and black powder cartridges. I kill just as many if not more deer than I used to with a scoped gun.

Natural point of aim. Look hard at the front sight, hold, squeeze and stay with it through the recoil. Its that simple and that hard.

[Pete44ru]

Grizz +1

Congrats on discussing your difficulty, and remember: Baby steps.

But I would suggest you start opposite from the way Grizz suggested:
Start short & big - big target/very short distance.

When you can do that, every time, all the time, move out to the next distance - but not too far, no further than 100% more, preferably a little less.

At some point, instead of increasing the distance, reduce the target size.

Repeat as required, until you arrive at a distance where you feel uncomfortable shooting at something - for instance, my personal handgun limitaton on game is 100 yards, due to me, not the gun.

These early steps are all skill and confidence builders, that will serve you well by setting muscle memory that'll come in handy in any fast reaction situation.

[Old Ironsights]

+1 for Paul.

If you've got 20ft, you've got an air-rifle range.

FWIW, if you have 20-25 ft - even inside - you also have a decent range for a .22 (bolt or lever) using .22 Colibri ammunition.

If you can't work out either, get some snap-caps and put a dime on your barrel. Ballance it there until you can pull the trigger consistantly without the dime falling off. (No fair using an octagon barrel... )

Practice, practice, practice.

[AmBraCol]

How do you shoot accurately if the front sight is bigger than the target?

First off, it's about a consistent sight picture and an accurate rifle/load combo. Me? I tend to sight my rifle in so that the bullet will hit dead center of the top of the front sight at a given range. So if I want to hit center of a jug, that's where I place the sights. OR, sometimes I use a six o'clock hold - holding at the bottom edge of a target at a given distance knowing that the bullet will strike center of the target above the front sight "X" amount. For example, with my Crosman 1377 I've got it sighted so that it should hit center of a quarter at 10 meters (30 odd feet) when I hold on the bottom edge of the quarter. And sometimes it DOES do that - when i do my part and also use ammo that the gun likes. AND again, a lot comes with familiarity with a gun/ammo combination. The sights on my Daisy 880 were way high and to the side for a while - on purpose. I've got a weird sense of humor. Anyway no one could hit anything with that rifle but ME. And I could hit things as far as I could see them - which wasn't too far since I needed glasses and didn't have any. Why? Because I was shooting daily and knew my rifle and ammo and what it could do.

[jnyork]

Then again, you are using open sights. Open sights are just barely better than no sights at all, IMHO. They require you to try to look at three things in line at one time. Your eye does not like this idea and refuses to do it. You have to look at the notch in the rear sight, put the bead in the notch and hold it there, then try to hold the bead on the target. It can be done, but just barely, and not to the level of accuracy of other sight systems, such as receiver sights and tang sights, also known as "peep" sights. With these, all you have to do is look through a little hole in the rear sight, called an aperture. Your eye will automatically center up in center of light in the hole, you dont have to think about holding anything in the middle of it. Then, just focus up the front sight, put the bead or post front sight where you want it and squeeze the trigger. Peep sights are inherantly much easier to shoot accurately and almost everyone who wants to shoot iron sights very accurately uses them.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Here's some more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight

Holy cow, that was a great reference. Thanks.

[AmBraCol]

+1 for what Pete44ru said.

Start with big targets and be happy with hitting them up close. When you can consistently group your shots, reduce the size of the target or increase the range. I started with my Crosman at about 7 meters and then moved it to 10. One day, for grins, I shot at 25 meters on an official slow fire pistol target and scored a near perfect score with a good number of "x's" It comes back to the basics - time after consistent time.

[tcomer]

I know part of my problem is that I'm starting to jerk the trigger when the front sight is on the target. But it's hard to hold your breath and slowly squeeze that crappy trigger. The front sight moves around as I do this so I end up jerking it like a shotgun trigger. And my reloads might be suspect. I am having fun. Letting the gun cool as I type this. Just looking for tips that might help me. I do have a Winchester 94 30-30 with peep sights on it. I shoot low power loads for fun. I can do much better with it. I'm just trying to learn how to shoot out of these blocky sights. When I get too frustrated, I bring out the 22 mag Henry that has a red dot on it. I can hit with it.

[ScottT]

Then again, you are using open sights. Open sights are just barely better than no sights at all, IMHO. They require you to try to look at three things in line at one time. Your eye does not like this idea and refuses to do it. You have to look at the notch in the rear sight, put the bead in the notch and hold it there, then try to hold the bead on the target. It can be done, but just barely, and not to the level of accuracy of other sight systems, such as receiver sights and tang sights, also known as "peep" sights. With these, all you have to do is look through a little hole in the rear sight, called an aperture. Your eye will automatically center up in center of light in the hole, you dont have to think about holding anything in the middle of it. Then, just focus up the front sight, put the bead or post front sight where you want it and squeeze the trigger. Peep sights are inherantly much easier to shoot accurately and almost everyone who wants to shoot iron sights very accurately uses them.

Hmmmm. Thats why some folks starve and others live high off the hog.

This is what you can do with sights that are barely better than no sights at all:


Be really careful about what these Internet gun experts tell you about worhless iron sights.

[Griff]

I also had a fairly difficult time learning to shoot offhand. I finally got some coaching. What he told was to not worry 'bout the "wiggle", but rather, to work with it. Timing my breaking of the shot as the sights passed the target. He said it becomes easier if I work on the "Three P's of Shooting" everyday.

The Thre Ps you ask?

Practice, Practice & Practice

[tman]

some people are natural good shots. most people have to practice,practice annd practice. the more u shoot the better you get. just keep shooting. i LOVE to shoot, so this works for me.

[AmBraCol]

Scott, remind me at what distance you were shooting the "Levergun Challenge" please?

I've GOT to get more organized this year and get up to the range more often. I'm supposed to be an official member of the Colombian Federation of Shooting Sports (am waiting for my membership card) so perhaps I can pick up a 22 now and have access to more ammo than the 100 rds/six months the Army usually "lets" us have. Time will tell. Anyway, from past experience I know that trigger time is important, but only if you pay attention to what you're doing. Anyway, thanks again for putting that challenge to us.

[Gryphon Black]

Lots of good advice, most of which should work for you.
I'll just highlight what I think will work best to start.
1] Really, a light recoil is very helpful, or has been for me. It let's you think about your sight alignment, and forget all else, including "will this hurt?" or the eyeblink-flinch I sometimes get. Let's face it. Having an explosion go off so close to your face is an unnatural act, and it takes getting used to. Starting at pipsqueak levels is smart, and it helped me have more fun at higher power. I will mention that a .357 rifle shooting .38's is a real sweetheart for this concept, especially if it's a 20" octagon barrel, but a simple garden variety Marlin 1894c will do fine, and doesn't cost much.
2] Ammo well matched to the gun is essential, and since you reload, you can build that with trial and error. For that, I set up a cardboard sheet with a graph of 3 inch squares, and set it as close as I need to to get a spread that stays inside them, but not too close. Right now, that range is about 40 ft. I load a given charge for 5 rnds, the next group slightly more powder, and so on, and each 5 rnd group gets shot into a single square. That way I can graph the power levels and thier respective accuracy. The tightest shooting square on the cardboard is my accuracy load for that gun. Ya gotta know whether you missed , or the gun missed. If your ammo is tuned to the gun, you know it was you, and you also know how for off you missed, and in what direction.
3] Snap caps in the living room, in front of the tube, or whatever. Muscle memory, routine, all that jazz.

Don't be to hard on yourself about the 100yds thing. I can't do it yet either, but I think I'll get there eventually. Right now, I just want to have fun at the backyard pistol range, and those pop bottles are a lot easier to see and hit from 30 yds or so!


Gryphon

[cecil]

Am certainly no exspurt, but the very first thing a newly acquired lever gets is a front and rear site alignment. Meaning the front and rear site are centered on the top of barrel and/or receiver, before sighting in. Nothing more frustrating to be on windage wise at 25 yards, and off by several inches at a 100 yds. Or vice a versa.

Second thing is sighting rifle in for 6 oclock hold at 100, with poi directly above poa using large bright orange circle that my old eyes can actually see at 100 yards. Certainly others have other ranges/purposes.

Third, if am determined to actually hit something at longer ranges, am using some kind of rest/brace.

Maybe it's me, but can shoot better off hand at 100 yards with open sights, over a scope. Lot less sight wiggling going on.

[Hobie]

Here's some more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_sight

Holy cow, that was a great reference. Thanks.

I don't know who wrote that but they did a heck of a job!

[Noah Zark]

Nath is right. It's all about practice.

I've gotten so I almost NEVER shoot from the bench except to see whether my sights are close.... at 25 yds.

It helps to learn Offhand if you have a Heavy rifle. THe weight stabilizes the gun and you learn how to focus a bit better.

I also had a fairly difficult time learning to shoot offhand. I finally got some coaching. What he told was to not worry 'bout the "wiggle", but rather, to work with it. Timing my breaking of the shot as the sights passed the target. He said it becomes easier if I work on the "Three P's of Shooting" everyday.

The Thre Ps you ask?

Practice, Practice & Practice

+1. I'm halfway to 108, and have been shooting since 1959. I used to mow lawns in the 60s for a box of 22 cartridges. About 3/4 of a mile from my parents' house there was an old brick factory, and the "beehive" kilns were still standing back then. The kilns were situated between the river and a working dump. We kids used to take our 22 rifles to the kilns on summer evenings, climb up on one of them, and wait for the rats to leave their nests near the river and head for the dump to feed. Then we'd simply pick them off from rear to front. There was never a shortage of targets, and the best thing was they were moving. The survivors would scavenge their dead relatives each night, so disposal was never an issue. Many, many thousands of rounds of Super-X solids were expended in that old brickyard, so much that if the PADEP knew they'd declare it a hazardous waste superfund site for lead contamination. But it was excellent practice, and we performed a community service. And in the mid to late 60s, THE POLICE would meet us there and give us boxes of 22 cartridges, saying "Be careful, have fun, and don't miss!" as they'd drive away. Nobody complained about the evening free-fire exercise at the brickyard. Different times . . .

I had a uncle that would let me fire his 6" K22 revolver all the time, and I burned many thousands of 22 cartridges through it. Shooting at targets that were 15 to 25 yds away got to be boring, so we shot at empty steel pop and beer cans at 40 to 50 yds, and got darned good at ventilating them and chasing them around.

When I was a senior in HS my parents bought me a 6" Model 28 S&W 357 Hoghway Patrolman revolver. I learned to reload right away, and fired it twice or three times a week. The 50 yd pop cans got moved to 70-80 yds, and finally to 100 yds. Later, after a hitch in the Marines (I was the Top Shot in our recruit series) and four years of college I bought myself a 6" S&W Model 25-2 revolver in 45 ACP. For some reason, I could hit with it better than with the 357 Model 28. At one time in the middle 80s, I could and did hit cans at 100 yds, 8/10 and on good days, 10/10. On bad days, maybe 4/10 at worst.

I don't own a scoped rifle but one. A sporterized Swedish Mauser has a 4X Unertl Hawk with a picket-post reticle. I used it to hunt whitetail for a number of years with success, but I'm not a fan of scopes for the hilly woods of north central PA.

Just this afternoon I was firing a Browning Grade 1 1886 45-70 with full magazine at the 200 yd berm at the local range. Offhand shooting, five at a time. When holding on the same spot and touching them off when it "felt right," the slugs were thumping into the same black spot with a shower of dirt each time. One of the other shooters at the range came over and had to know what I was shooting, and I told him. He was amazed that anyone could hit anything at 200 yds with open sights. I put five through a K98k Mauser at the 440 yd (400M) gong and hit it five for five. The guy stood there fishmouthing, and finally said, "That's impossible without a scope! How can you do that?"

"Pretty simple," I said. "I've had a lifetime of practice."

And that's what it takes.

Noah

[Jeeps]

My biggest problems were always trying to "anticipate" the shot, it's best if your
weapon goes off without you expecting the exact moment.

Jerking the trigger is bad of course, but so isn't taking tooooo much time to
pull it also which will lead to anticipating the shot.

Get your sight picture comfortably then just start even pressure to pull the trigger
quickly but you know you aren't jerking it. There is a fine line there.

That's why a lot of folks like REALLY light triggers, but they are not necessary.

You can tame a bad trigger with steady even force.

[jnyork]

Then again, you are using open sights. Open sights are just barely better than no sights at all, IMHO. They require you to try to look at three things in line at one time. Your eye does not like this idea and refuses to do it. You have to look at the notch in the rear sight, put the bead in the notch and hold it there, then try to hold the bead on the target. It can be done, but just barely, and not to the level of accuracy of other sight systems, such as receiver sights and tang sights, also known as "peep" sights. With these, all you have to do is look through a little hole in the rear sight, called an aperture. Your eye will automatically center up in center of light in the hole, you dont have to think about holding anything in the middle of it. Then, just focus up the front sight, put the bead or post front sight where you want it and squeeze the trigger. Peep sights are inherantly much easier to shoot accurately and almost everyone who wants to shoot iron sights very accurately uses them.

Hmmmm. Thats why some folks starve and others live high off the hog.

This is what you can do with sights that are barely better than no sights at all:


Be really careful about what these Internet gun experts tell you about worhless iron sights.

Hmmm, I have to admit that is pretty good offhand shooting. Can you do that consistantly? I knew when I posted my humble opinion there would be a flame artist lurking for me out there somewhere. Thanks for comfirming my faith!

[Blaine]

Keep at it. Even with open sights, you'll one day find you're hitting everything and you won't know how..it will be zen like...you'll point at a target and hit it.... I've been there a few times in my life, but stopped shooting as much a couple years ago and it's slipped away again...Oh, well, back at it (I'm going to watch a couple movies tonight and dry fire my 1911 at the bad guys...it helps a lot)

[ScottT]

Scott, remind me at what distance you were shooting the "Levergun Challenge" please?

I've GOT to get more organized this year and get up to the range more often. I'm supposed to be an official member of the Colombian Federation of Shooting Sports (am waiting for my membership card) so perhaps I can pick up a 22 now and have access to more ammo than the 100 rds/six months the Army usually "lets" us have. Time will tell. Anyway, from past experience I know that trigger time is important, but only if you pay attention to what you're doing. Anyway, thanks again for putting that challenge to us.

I was shooting at 100 yards. Now I am shooting a lot at 300yds. Basics, just basics. The best way a man can work on this is probably with a .22 NO PLINKING! and concentrate on hitting at 100yds. I think a lot of folks don't think about it, but it is much easier to shoot a .22 at 100yds than to shoot my Sharps. My Sharps has a long heavy hanmer fall, launches a 522gr bullet and makes a lot of smoke and noise. None of that with the .22.

[ScottT]

Then again, you are using open sights. Open sights are just barely better than no sights at all, IMHO. They require you to try to look at three things in line at one time. Your eye does not like this idea and refuses to do it. You have to look at the notch in the rear sight, put the bead in the notch and hold it there, then try to hold the bead on the target. It can be done, but just barely, and not to the level of accuracy of other sight systems, such as receiver sights and tang sights, also known as "peep" sights. With these, all you have to do is look through a little hole in the rear sight, called an aperture. Your eye will automatically center up in center of light in the hole, you dont have to think about holding anything in the middle of it. Then, just focus up the front sight, put the bead or post front sight where you want it and squeeze the trigger. Peep sights are inherantly much easier to shoot accurately and almost everyone who wants to shoot iron sights very accurately uses them.

Hmmmm. Thats why some folks starve and others live high off the hog.

This is what you can do with sights that are barely better than no sights at all:


Be really careful about what these Internet gun experts tell you about worhless iron sights.

Hmmm, I have to admit that is pretty good offhand shooting. Can you do that consistantly? I knew when I posted my humble opinion there would be a flame artist lurking for me out there somewhere. Thanks for comfirming my faith!

Correction, that is not offhand. These rounds were delivered standing from a rest across the bed of my pickup. The point is that the sights that you claim are worthless certainly kept folks fed for many years. Just because you cannot shoot them well, does not mean that they are not useful.

[jnyork]

Off the truck bed, huh? OK, I quit.

[Rimfire McNutjob]

Off the truck bed, huh? OK, I quit.

I'm sure the double set trigger didn't hurt his accuracy either. Nice rifle.

[El Chivo]

what has been said about timing with the trigger is true. It's important to know your trigger whether it's light or not. But I shoot best if I don't pull the trigger per se, I hold my finger on it and contract my hand.

The other thing that makes a difference for me is posture. I shoot best if my left elbow is held straight out, and if I get lazy and drop it I start missing. Some people lean back, curving their spine, and your weight settles in a lower center of gravity which is steadier.

These days my eyes get tired quick, I can't really see a pop can at 100 yards. I can hit them at 50 though. My favorite range is 75 yards, and a big Foster's can is a good target at that range.

You can change your front sight also, get a Lyman 17 globe and try some different inserts. That fine bead they have is a great sight picture for 50 yard offhand shooting. I even bought some aftermarket inserts that are fine crosshairs of various types.

If you practice offhand you'll laugh at how easy shooting is from a crouch or rest.

[tcomer]

Thanks for the advice. I was just getting frustrated. I bench rested the guns and immediately went to trying to hit objects at 50 yards off hand for fun. Like I said, I'm used to scoped guns. Shooting the open sighted guns is a different challenge. I need to set a large target up at 50 yards to find out where I'm actually hitting at would be a plus. Then I can go from there. Still, it's hard to imagine hitting something at 100 yards with these blocky sights. Guess I'll learn if I keep at it.

[meanc]

If it's a bead sight get rid of it for a regular post sight. If it's a post just thin it down some.

Paractice form and breathing.

Go buy some snap caps and practice dry-firing until you have a consistent trigger pull and minimal movement of the sights.

This helps familiarize yourself with the weight of the rifle and the trigger.

Do this as often as possible and after a while you'll be popping soda cans at 100yds with no problem at all.

[Modoc ED]

I shoot mostly lever action rifles that are equipped mostly with iron sights. I feel I shoot them with very good accuracy but I practice and go shooting most days. When I shoot one of my rifles off the bench, it is usually a rifle that I have just gotten -- new or used and I want to see just how good the rifle shoots. After that, I shoot almost all my rifles off-hand.

BUT there are two rifles that I shoot the most. One is a .30-30 and the other is a .444 Marlin and I shoot those rifles a lot -- I mean a lot. AND I hardly ever shoot at targets with them. I shoot on my property or go out to the National Forest or BLM land and PLINK. I shot at rocks, tree limbs, leaves, or whatever else presents itself -- varmints, squirrels, coyotes, badgers, birds, whatever. AND I practice "snap-shooting" (bring the rifle up quickly and fire without hesitation) a lot.

Some of the guys here have said they have trouble shooting iron sights because it is difficult for them to line up the front sight in the rear sight slot/groove/V and focus on them while focusing on the target. Forget it!!! That's not how I do it. I line up the front and rear sight on the target and then concentrate on the front sight and pull the trigger. The hell with keeping the rear sight and target in focus. Just line all three up concentrate on the front sight and let it go.

Concentrate on using just one gun for awhile. Get used to it. That'll help instill some confidence in yourself.

I've found that guys/gals who don't shoot well with iron sights don't understand them.

[Rusty]

If your Puma has a bad trigger you could send it off to Nate Kiowa Jones for some work. He has a sticky near the top of the topic board.

I shot muzzleloaders in club shoots for quite a few years and the air rifle was my main practice tool. I bought a Chinese side lever .177 rifle with poor sights and an even worse trigger. After that it was practice, practice, practice. When you get tired of shooting bullseye targets try some novelty targets. something like a possum on a log or a squirrel on a limb. As long as you shoot paper so you can tell where and by how much you're missing.

Happy Trails and God Bless,

Rusty <><

[JerryB]

I reckon now that I know iron sights are usles I better stop shooting cans at 40 to 50 yards with 2 inch and 4 inch six guns and stop hitting things with my rifles, darned old raggedy worthless iron sights. Now I suppose I need to buy scopes for all of my handguns and rifles. Oh woe is me.

[KirkD]

Try dry-firing for a little bit each day. Snap a mental photo of where the sights were when the hammer went 'click' and train your self to make the hammer 'click' just as the top edge of the front sight is almost on point.

By the way, there is just no denying that ScottT's Shiloh Sharps is downright tempting. What a beautiful gun.

[ScottT]

I reckon now that I know iron sights are usles I better stop shooting cans at 40 to 50 yards with 2 inch and 4 inch six guns and stop hitting things with my rifles, darned old raggedy worthless iron sights. Now I suppose I need to buy scopes for all of my handguns and rifles. Oh woe is me.

Now Jerry, you are fixing to hurt somebody's feelings there.

[Tom Richardson]

Then again, you are using open sights. Open sights are just barely better than no sights at all, IMHO. They require you to try to look at three things in line at one time. Your eye does not like this idea and refuses to do it. You have to look at the notch in the rear sight, put the bead in the notch and hold it there, then try to hold the bead on the target. It can be done, but just barely, and not to the level of accuracy of other sight systems, such as receiver sights and tang sights, also known as "peep" sights. With these, all you have to do is look through a little hole in the rear sight, called an aperture. Your eye will automatically center up in center of light in the hole, you dont have to think about holding anything in the middle of it. Then, just focus up the front sight, put the bead or post front sight where you want it and squeeze the trigger. Peep sights are inherantly much easier to shoot accurately and almost everyone who wants to shoot iron sights very accurately uses them.

Hmmmm. Thats why some folks starve and others live high off the hog.

This is what you can do with sights that are barely better than no sights at all:


Be really careful about what these Internet gun experts tell you about worhless iron sights.

Hmmm, I have to admit that is pretty good offhand shooting. Can you do that consistantly? I knew when I posted my humble opinion there would be a flame artist lurking for me out there somewhere. Thanks for comfirming my faith!

JNYORK
If you think ScottT is a flame artist you can think again.
I have seen Scott shoot Kate and I have also fired that rifle at distance with iron sights.
With 70 year old eyes my Round Heeled Rachel has pounded the 1100 yard buffalo over to Raton in New Mexico. She has busted all kinds of Arkansas Sex Stones off hand at 500 yards and more with regularity.
You can believe what you want but be assured that Scott has shot the targets he post for you to see.

[AmBraCol]

It's all what you're used to I guess. I grew up with iron sights and never shot a scope much at all until I hit 30. Now I'm going back to iron again "just because". Funny thing happened the week before Resurrection Sunday. My wife and I were up at my in-laws cabin in the mountains on a reservoir. I set up a target at about 40 paces from the front porch and proceeded to shoot the CFX at it using the 3X9 scope on highest power. Wasn't happy with the results but chose a pellet that seemed to do better than the others and then switched to a Mendoza sight with the factory front sight that got broken in transit. It was a "fire sight" or whatever they're called and the glow dohickey broke off leaving a sharp tip. The Mendoza's WAY to wide for as close as I have it to my eye, but I was able to get a halfway decent sight picture and proceeded to shoot. Even with the Mendoza cranked all the way down I was a foot or so high at that distance - but I was getting tighter groups than with the scope. I need to put the Mendoza peep on just for grins and see what I can do with THAT setup. Still, I plan to leave the open sight on for possible informal competition at the gun club. Folks can talk about the superiority of scopes and all, but Billy Dixon didn't use one at Adobe Walls, nor did the vast majority of the buffalo hunters, etc. There's no substitute for knowing your gun and ammo and shooting enough to use it to good effect. A good shot with open sights can outshoot a mediocre shot with a scope.

[Blaine]

I can tell you for a fact that my 1895GS will shoot at 100yds every bit as good with a Ghost Ring as it does with a Leupold Scout Scope..... My 1895 Cowboy hits with regularity with it's Marbles Tanger and the 1886EL is deadly with it's peep sight......Darn old iron sights, anyway.....

[J35]

distances. But shooting through open sights offhand is frustrating. How do you shoot accurately if the front sight is bigger than the target?

My thoughts

I am going to guess that you are closing one eye.

I find if I shoot with both eye's open the front sight no longer covers the whole target and I am able to pick a spot on the target, be it animate or inanimate.

Like has been said you have to learn to walk before you run, so move those target in closer, when it becomes easy move out some and so on.

If you are not in decent physical shape you are going to have a hard time off hand.

Learn to trust your instincts, by this I mean don't second guess your sight picture, most times it's not going to get any better the longer you hold.

I have had the privilege of knowing and shooting with a few old timers that came up thru the depression, one thing in common with all three is when the rifle butt hit their shoulder the rifle went off, they didn't stand there waiting for the perfect sight picture, they had learned to trust their instincts and they rarely missed.

Make sure your ammo is up to your standards breath deep and practice , practice, practice.

good shooting

[Nate Kiowa Jones]

I haven't read every post but I'm wondering how much load developement you have done with this gun. Before you can learn to do your part the gun and ammo has to be up to the task. you will never be able to consistantly hit a 3" can @ 100 yds if your ammo and gun combo is only capable of 6" groups @ 100 yds.

[JReed]

I am going to start from the ground up you cant build a house from the roof down so her goes.

This is how I teach Marines to shoot offhand and its what works for me.
Start with your feet a comfortable shoulders distance apart standing at an angle to the target not quite 90 degrees. Dont lean in any one direction but stand up straight with your weight planted on your feet.

Bring the rifle to your shoulder and allow the forward hand to act as a table ( dont choke the fore end your hand is there only as a rest to take the weight of the gun and your fingers should be relaxed) Allow your forward elbow to point naturaly down to your forward foot.

With your fireing hand grasp the stock firmly but dont choke it. Your fireing elbow may point out to the side or hang down naturaly this is shooters preference. Get good cheek weld.

After you have set your body up for the shot raise the muzzel slightly above the target and line up your sights. Once you have sight alignment lower the sights on to the target and verify that your looking at the target.
Take a breath and exhale when you see the front sight cross the target as the barrel drops back down squeez the trigger.

It is Important to know that the longer you hold your breath the more unsteady you become also your eye sight starts to degrade after 2-3 seconds of not breathing. Also your fine muscles start to tremor after a few seconds of not breathing. If you find that after 2-3 seconds you have not fired the shot drop the rifle from your shoulder relaxe your body and breath after a few moments restart the above process.

These are the things I preach when shooting offhand slow fire at the 200 yard line for our rifle qualification. I will be on the range coaching this week and will take some pics tomorrow to demonstrate.

[JohnnyReb]

Lots of good info. posted.

I can only add one more suggestion:
To eliminate (or discover) trigger jerk, have another person load your weapon out of your line of sight. They will either load shell or leave it empty, you are not to know which. When that click goes down on an empty chamber, you will discover alot about your shooting style.

I have witnessed people who have slightly flinched all the way to jerking back to absorb the recoil!! It is a great teaching tool.

I still use this technique as an occasionally tuneup for myself.